Hello From Scotland and how do you extend the injection duration on a w210 606?
Hello From Scotland and how do you extend the injection duration on a w210 606?
Just signed here now as I was reading this great topic:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/w210...-1742.html
I didn't want to Hijack it on my first post then I open a new topic with a question or two... Or more...
How do you extend the duration of the injection on a W210 606?
Would that be with the timing advance that can be manually moved?
Thank you.
I am also looking to increase the power on my E300TD 1997.
So far I have advanced the timing.
Got 2 resistor, 1 that fool a bit the turbo sensor and 1 that fool a bit the ATI.
Delete the EGR electronicaly ( thanks to Kartek)
Got a cone air filter
The boost is now up to 19PSI.
Oh, talking about the boost, I have a wee bother with it, more question, I know... Oopss..
Untill recently the boost was like a kick in the back, bang! Now the boost is back to were it was before, kind of progressive getting there and I have no idea why? I have check for air leaks but didn't find any?
I might need a total reset on the STAR but its 50 quid at the dealer
I am running on vegetable oil, heresy?
All the best.
Olivier
Hello All,
Just signed here now as I was reading this great topic:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/w210...-1742.html
I didn't want to Hijack it on my first post then I open a new topic with a question or two... Or more...
How do you extend the duration of the injection on a W210 606?
Would that be with the timing advance that can be manually moved?
Thank you.
I am also looking to increase the power on my E300TD 1997.
So far I have advanced the timing.
Got 2 resistor, 1 that fool a bit the turbo sensor and 1 that fool a bit the ATI.
Delete the EGR electronicaly ( thanks to Kartek)
Got a cone air filter
The boost is now up to 19PSI.
Oh, talking about the boost, I have a wee bother with it, more question, I know... Oopss..
Untill recently the boost was like a kick in the back, bang! Now the boost is back to were it was before, kind of progressive getting there and I have no idea why? I have check for air leaks but didn't find any?
I might need a total reset on the STAR but its 50 quid at the dealer
I am running on vegetable oil, heresy?
All the best.
Olivier
(10-04-2010, 11:49 PM)Olivier Got a cone air filterGet rid of that. Its a big downgrade from the stock filter.
Quote:The boost is now up to 19PSI.If thats with the stock turbo you need to turn it below 12psi asap before you destroy it and the engine.
Quote:I am running on vegetable oil, heresy?Abuse.
ForcedInduction
10-05-2010, 06:37 AM
#2
(10-04-2010, 11:49 PM)Olivier Got a cone air filterGet rid of that. Its a big downgrade from the stock filter.
Quote:The boost is now up to 19PSI.If thats with the stock turbo you need to turn it below 12psi asap before you destroy it and the engine.
Quote:I am running on vegetable oil, heresy?Abuse.
Stock pressure is at 15 psi I think?
Apparently the IP with the MAF will adjust the mixture?
I was recommended not to go highter then 22/ 23 PSI, this is why 19 was looking OK...
Cone filter is OK, its cheaper as its washable, not really a downgrade to my opinion.
Thank you.
Olivier
Oh, what is it with the 19psi with the stock turbo? Why will it destroy my engine? Yes, its the wee stock turbo...
Stock pressure is at 15 psi I think?
Apparently the IP with the MAF will adjust the mixture?
I was recommended not to go highter then 22/ 23 PSI, this is why 19 was looking OK...
Cone filter is OK, its cheaper as its washable, not really a downgrade to my opinion.
Thank you.
Olivier
(10-05-2010, 08:37 AM)Olivier Stock pressure is at 15 psi I think?12psi peak, 8psi at maximum rpm.
Quote:not really a downgrade to my opinion.Opinion≠Fact.
ForcedInduction
10-05-2010, 09:39 AM
#4
(10-05-2010, 08:37 AM)Olivier Stock pressure is at 15 psi I think?12psi peak, 8psi at maximum rpm.
Quote:not really a downgrade to my opinion.Opinion≠Fact.
Original paper filter is big enough for (roughly) double the stock hp. So why to change it, as it will for sure filter air much better than any free-flow "tuning" filter. Stock filter is also piped so that it picks cool air from the front, unlike most free-flow filter installs.
Clearly you've got a g@sser mind map when talking about MAF and mixture.
Increasing boost will not give any more fuel. It will only make excessive exhaust backpressure, and the relation between boost/backpressure is worse than in stock --> actually less air is flowing through the engine --> less power than stock, and hell of a heat stress to the engine. Boost by itself is unimportant, it's only a tool trying to guess how much air is flowing through the engine. So install a gauge for exhaust backpressure first and then play with boost
MAF in diesel Mercs is only for EGT operation. Mixture is unimportant in diesel, as you should know. Fuel maps specify the wanted fuel amount (accelerator). Then boost, torque limiter(rpm) and other maps decrease fueling, if necessary. So even if you give 100psi of boost, it will not give any more fuel than in stock form, unless you reprogram the ECU.
Welcome to forums!
Forced is right. If you don't have a clue why high boost pressure with stock turbo destroys the engine, better not to tune before you study.
Original paper filter is big enough for (roughly) double the stock hp. So why to change it, as it will for sure filter air much better than any free-flow "tuning" filter. Stock filter is also piped so that it picks cool air from the front, unlike most free-flow filter installs.
Clearly you've got a g@sser mind map when talking about MAF and mixture.
Increasing boost will not give any more fuel. It will only make excessive exhaust backpressure, and the relation between boost/backpressure is worse than in stock --> actually less air is flowing through the engine --> less power than stock, and hell of a heat stress to the engine. Boost by itself is unimportant, it's only a tool trying to guess how much air is flowing through the engine. So install a gauge for exhaust backpressure first and then play with boost
MAF in diesel Mercs is only for EGT operation. Mixture is unimportant in diesel, as you should know. Fuel maps specify the wanted fuel amount (accelerator). Then boost, torque limiter(rpm) and other maps decrease fueling, if necessary. So even if you give 100psi of boost, it will not give any more fuel than in stock form, unless you reprogram the ECU.
Welcome to forums!
12 psi, this is really little ? I got 14/ 15 at max rpm... It seems that it was close then this all along? I'll take one mod out see what PSI I get without.
to Muuris:
I got a shield that get the air from the front as well like the stock filter. Cold air going in. Not the prettiest but efficient.
What is important to me is that its washable and last longer before buying another.
There is a wee reistor that tell the ECU through the AIT that the air is cold, and therefore in theory, the ECU inject more air. In theory then I got more boost with the other tweaking and a bit more fuel as the ECU think its denser air. Better then just hot air boost itself...
Thanks for the backpressure info. Where do you get those? Are they same as the boost? Is that before or after the CAT? What is the right balance then between boost and backpressure?
I use to have more power then stock untill few weeks ago, dunno what happen as I did few things on the same time, gutting the cat, different fuel mix, tweaking the IP...
But even now that I put it all like before again ( but back a cat/ same fuel/ lower the avance then before) it take time to pick up the boost, still there but not like a kick in the back?
How mixture is not important in diesel?
Thanks for the answers and the welcome
Olivier
to FI:
12 psi, this is really little ? I got 14/ 15 at max rpm... It seems that it was close then this all along? I'll take one mod out see what PSI I get without.
to Muuris:
I got a shield that get the air from the front as well like the stock filter. Cold air going in. Not the prettiest but efficient.
What is important to me is that its washable and last longer before buying another.
There is a wee reistor that tell the ECU through the AIT that the air is cold, and therefore in theory, the ECU inject more air. In theory then I got more boost with the other tweaking and a bit more fuel as the ECU think its denser air. Better then just hot air boost itself...
Thanks for the backpressure info. Where do you get those? Are they same as the boost? Is that before or after the CAT? What is the right balance then between boost and backpressure?
I use to have more power then stock untill few weeks ago, dunno what happen as I did few things on the same time, gutting the cat, different fuel mix, tweaking the IP...
But even now that I put it all like before again ( but back a cat/ same fuel/ lower the avance then before) it take time to pick up the boost, still there but not like a kick in the back?
How mixture is not important in diesel?
Thanks for the answers and the welcome
Olivier
Give some thought and let some of this new information soak in that muuris, and Forced are giving you.
George3soccer
10-05-2010, 02:11 PM #7Clearly you need to rethink about what you have in mind. For example the idea of the stock om606 IP. Not very much what you mentioned. Hell if it was then we could be making 300hp on a stock 606 M pump.
Give some thought and let some of this new information soak in that muuris, and Forced are giving you.
I just want the beast to run better then what it was put into the market for. Advancing the timing already improved the response on the throttle.
I am not looking for 300HP as I cannot afford the money but I am sure there is something to be done at reasonable price with the stock pump and perhaps the stock turbo...
All info/ critics are great.
Going to lower the psi tomorrow and see if there is any improvement or not.
Olivier
I am listerning. I understood a wee better now but there is still alot that I do not understand/ know yet and I'm in the fog...
I just want the beast to run better then what it was put into the market for. Advancing the timing already improved the response on the throttle.
I am not looking for 300HP as I cannot afford the money but I am sure there is something to be done at reasonable price with the stock pump and perhaps the stock turbo...
All info/ critics are great.
Going to lower the psi tomorrow and see if there is any improvement or not.
Olivier
George3soccer
10-05-2010, 05:47 PM #9Stock turbo might be pushing it still. That little turbo is well undersized for that motor from the factory. Could do better with a different turbo and stock IP.
With the computer controls, it's a matter of electronic trickery to increase the performance in small measures by altering the sensor outputs like was done with the EGR or the MAP sensor. Beyond this, you have to do something like have a custom chip installed in the ECU (Bosch EDC) that changes the fuel delivery curve. Basically, you either have to understand electronics or pay someone to do the work for you.
With the MAP sensor mod, I suspect you are not getting more power per se, rather the power comes on sooner as if you'd adjusted the ALDA on a mechanical engine.
Now, you can also modify the rack position feedback circuit with a couple of resistors - very cheap but again, you need to know the electronics to make it work. There's a thread on that subject as well here somewhere.
Beyond that, you have to make serious hardware changes (bigger turbo, improved exhaust) to support higher levels of power safely. The stock turbo is living on borrowed time at higher than stock boost levels.
So, I would look into the feedback circuit mod and that's about all you can do cheaply to get yourself about 30 more HP.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
OK, brother Olivier, here's the long and short story on performance on these cars:
With the computer controls, it's a matter of electronic trickery to increase the performance in small measures by altering the sensor outputs like was done with the EGR or the MAP sensor. Beyond this, you have to do something like have a custom chip installed in the ECU (Bosch EDC) that changes the fuel delivery curve. Basically, you either have to understand electronics or pay someone to do the work for you.
With the MAP sensor mod, I suspect you are not getting more power per se, rather the power comes on sooner as if you'd adjusted the ALDA on a mechanical engine.
Now, you can also modify the rack position feedback circuit with a couple of resistors - very cheap but again, you need to know the electronics to make it work. There's a thread on that subject as well here somewhere.
Beyond that, you have to make serious hardware changes (bigger turbo, improved exhaust) to support higher levels of power safely. The stock turbo is living on borrowed time at higher than stock boost levels.
So, I would look into the feedback circuit mod and that's about all you can do cheaply to get yourself about 30 more HP.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
I will look intot he rack position sensor. If I cannot find it I would love to be directed to the topic if anyone knows where it is. Cheers.
I am not good at electronics but I learn quickly
and I cannot afford the car to be shipped nor spend on a bigger turbo etc... I had the CAT removed but it was when all started to go slower( kicking later then usual) and for other reasons I just reinstall another CAT. I should have kept it empty...By the feeding circuit, you are talking about the rack position? Is that correct? Or the ECU remap?
Thank you.
Olivier
Oh, this might be it then, I use to have a bit of "kick in the back" like boost, less lag, not anymore for some reasons, it must have been the MAP resistor. Now its back to the "original saloon"easy boost going up.
I will look intot he rack position sensor. If I cannot find it I would love to be directed to the topic if anyone knows where it is. Cheers.
I am not good at electronics but I learn quickly and I cannot afford the car to be shipped nor spend on a bigger turbo etc... I had the CAT removed but it was when all started to go slower( kicking later then usual) and for other reasons I just reinstall another CAT. I should have kept it empty...
By the feeding circuit, you are talking about the rack position? Is that correct? Or the ECU remap?
Thank you.
Olivier
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier What is important to me is that its washable and last longer before buying another.Washable means nothing really. You could buy several paper filters for the cost of that one washable. Paper takes just 15 seconds to change and lasts more than a year vs how long for you to wash and how long before it needs to be washed?
Washable filters also filter very poorly compared to even cheap-brand paper types.
Read more here: http://www.billswebspace.com/AirFilterTest.htm
And Olivier, please press the submit button on your posts only once.
ForcedInduction
10-06-2010, 06:24 AM
#12
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier What is important to me is that its washable and last longer before buying another.Washable means nothing really. You could buy several paper filters for the cost of that one washable. Paper takes just 15 seconds to change and lasts more than a year vs how long for you to wash and how long before it needs to be washed?
Washable filters also filter very poorly compared to even cheap-brand paper types.
Read more here: http://www.billswebspace.com/AirFilterTest.htm
And Olivier, please press the submit button on your posts only once.
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier to FI:Close, huh? It should have 7-8 psi on high rpm as stock. So 14-15 psi is nearly double that!
12 psi, this is really little ? I got 14/ 15 at max rpm... It seems that it was close then this all along?
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier ...that tell the ECU through the AIT that the air is cold, and therefore in theory, the ECU inject more..Now you weren't listening at all, read my earlier post. Your car is not a gasser, it's a diesel, therefore it does NOT have a constant air/fuel ratio! Won't get more fuel by cheating air temp sensors etc.
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier Is that before or after the CAT? What is the right balance then between boost and backpressure?Exhaust manifold backpressure. No point measuring exhaust pipe backpressures at this stage, as the exhaust will flow many times more than the turbo. Safe boost/backpressure combo depends on many things, but for a rule of thumb they should be of the order. For example both near 15psi (13/16) or both near 30psi (28/29) but not boost 15psi and backpressure 30psi. Search the forums for more on that.
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier to FI:Close, huh? It should have 7-8 psi on high rpm as stock. So 14-15 psi is nearly double that!
12 psi, this is really little ? I got 14/ 15 at max rpm... It seems that it was close then this all along?
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier ...that tell the ECU through the AIT that the air is cold, and therefore in theory, the ECU inject more..Now you weren't listening at all, read my earlier post. Your car is not a gasser, it's a diesel, therefore it does NOT have a constant air/fuel ratio! Won't get more fuel by cheating air temp sensors etc.
(10-05-2010, 11:45 AM)Olivier Is that before or after the CAT? What is the right balance then between boost and backpressure?Exhaust manifold backpressure. No point measuring exhaust pipe backpressures at this stage, as the exhaust will flow many times more than the turbo. Safe boost/backpressure combo depends on many things, but for a rule of thumb they should be of the order. For example both near 15psi (13/16) or both near 30psi (28/29) but not boost 15psi and backpressure 30psi. Search the forums for more on that.
Never knew I was that high compare to stock, are we talking about the same car? I am on 15PSI now?
Thise is why I thought 19 PSI was OK.
I have to say that strangely enough the resistor on the AIT does make a difference at take off? Sound odd but true.
I'll look at the back pressure and manifold pressure, thank you for this.
All the best.
Olivier
Hi Muuris,
Never knew I was that high compare to stock, are we talking about the same car? I am on 15PSI now?
Thise is why I thought 19 PSI was OK.
I have to say that strangely enough the resistor on the AIT does make a difference at take off? Sound odd but true.
I'll look at the back pressure and manifold pressure, thank you for this.
All the best.
Olivier
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