Defender 110
Defender 110
I'm about to start the restoration of my 1987 defender 110 and have been looking at alternative engines. At the moment it has a 2.5l naturally asphyxiated diesel producing 68bhp & 114 lb/ft of torque, it needs more power. The engine I had planned to put in is the 200TDi which produces 103bhp & 195lb/ft of torque. The 200TDI is a nice enough engine but they are not cheap, are not available in North America and are becoming harder to find parts for. Heads are no longer available. My truck weighs aprox. 4500lbs.
I have been researching the OM617a, OM602, and the OM603. The transmission I have is rated to 280lb/ft of torque so I was hoping to have an engine with about 230lb/ft of torque, I've driven a truck with this set up and it was very nice. I also want as reliable an engine as possible, minimal to no electronics and I'd like to keep the 20+ mpg economy I'm getting now.
Now for the questions, I've seen some great dyno numbers for the 617 but what do you think the torque at the fly wheel would be with the basic mods listed, or would I have to get the pump modified to get 230lb/ft of torque? Or would just turbo, injector, and the simple pump mods listed on this site be enough?
The 603 looks like a good choice, what is the parts availability like? I read somewhere that the heads are becoming difficult to find. Can you still get the better head if you find an engine with #14. How much longer is the 603 compared to the 617?
The 602 seems to have a good reputation and is said to be as reliable as the 617, and I read that the torque spec is 222lb/ft @2400rpm, this seems to be a bit higher then the other engines, is this correct or is it just for the electronically controlled ones? Can you remove or replace the electronics on the newer ones?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give. I also invite any advice or opinions as I'm still learning about these engines, I've been a Landrover & VW diesel fan up until now. Hopefully you won't hold that against me.
Mike
Hi. First i want to say thanks to the contributors of this web site, it has been a huge help in learning about the Mercedes diesels.
I'm about to start the restoration of my 1987 defender 110 and have been looking at alternative engines. At the moment it has a 2.5l naturally asphyxiated diesel producing 68bhp & 114 lb/ft of torque, it needs more power. The engine I had planned to put in is the 200TDi which produces 103bhp & 195lb/ft of torque. The 200TDI is a nice enough engine but they are not cheap, are not available in North America and are becoming harder to find parts for. Heads are no longer available. My truck weighs aprox. 4500lbs.
I have been researching the OM617a, OM602, and the OM603. The transmission I have is rated to 280lb/ft of torque so I was hoping to have an engine with about 230lb/ft of torque, I've driven a truck with this set up and it was very nice. I also want as reliable an engine as possible, minimal to no electronics and I'd like to keep the 20+ mpg economy I'm getting now.
Now for the questions, I've seen some great dyno numbers for the 617 but what do you think the torque at the fly wheel would be with the basic mods listed, or would I have to get the pump modified to get 230lb/ft of torque? Or would just turbo, injector, and the simple pump mods listed on this site be enough?
The 603 looks like a good choice, what is the parts availability like? I read somewhere that the heads are becoming difficult to find. Can you still get the better head if you find an engine with #14. How much longer is the 603 compared to the 617?
The 602 seems to have a good reputation and is said to be as reliable as the 617, and I read that the torque spec is 222lb/ft @2400rpm, this seems to be a bit higher then the other engines, is this correct or is it just for the electronically controlled ones? Can you remove or replace the electronics on the newer ones?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give. I also invite any advice or opinions as I'm still learning about these engines, I've been a Landrover & VW diesel fan up until now. Hopefully you won't hold that against me.
Mike
the om603 turbo has about 200 TQ 150 hp
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-17-2010, 03:09 PM #2the om617 turbo has about 180 TQ 120 hp
the om603 turbo has about 200 TQ 150 hp
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-17-2010, 11:00 PM #4I really like the om617 for simplicity! It can take a lot of abuse as well!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
I've seen by other's builds that getting 230 flywheel TQ is possible. I was planning on doing a VNT, Intercooler and the simple IP mods listed with any engine I use, so what I'm wondering is would that be enough? If not, what do you think it would get me. What else would be required to get that 230 TQ and what kind of fuel economy and reliability could I expect. I know this is subjective but your experienced guess and opinion is appreciated.
Bike Mike
I agree, the more I read the more I'm liking the 617 for it's simplicity, durability, and availabity in North America.
I've seen by other's builds that getting 230 flywheel TQ is possible. I was planning on doing a VNT, Intercooler and the simple IP mods listed with any engine I use, so what I'm wondering is would that be enough? If not, what do you think it would get me. What else would be required to get that 230 TQ and what kind of fuel economy and reliability could I expect. I know this is subjective but your experienced guess and opinion is appreciated.
Bike Mike
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-18-2010, 12:26 PM #7I vote 4bt cummins
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
The truck is my daily driver in the winter, I drive 50kms in some nasty snow conditions, and my expedition truck. I don't do any hard core rock crawling but do some trail driving and longer distance dirt road stuff. I only run 33-35 inch tires.
I'd like to be able to do 70mph for my highway runs. I tow up to 2000lbs occasionally but I don't expect to be doing 70 when towing.
With the old engine top speed was 60mph on flat ground but 50 mph anywhere. You have to love grunty tractor engines.
(11-18-2010, 12:26 PM)willbhere4u I vote 4bt cummins
Oh, I wish. The 4bt is an amazing engine but it's a known paint shaker and one wrong move with the throttle would rip my entire drive line apart. If I had the time and $ my dream set up would be the Isuzu 3.9 4bd1t with new transmission and axles but that won't be happening in the near future. This is what attracted me to the OM617, there are now conversion kits available and I can leave my driveline, keeping the costs down.
Bike Mike
You're right, I'll post some photos later.
The truck is my daily driver in the winter, I drive 50kms in some nasty snow conditions, and my expedition truck. I don't do any hard core rock crawling but do some trail driving and longer distance dirt road stuff. I only run 33-35 inch tires.
I'd like to be able to do 70mph for my highway runs. I tow up to 2000lbs occasionally but I don't expect to be doing 70 when towing.
With the old engine top speed was 60mph on flat ground but 50 mph anywhere. You have to love grunty tractor engines.
(11-18-2010, 12:26 PM)willbhere4u I vote 4bt cummins
Oh, I wish. The 4bt is an amazing engine but it's a known paint shaker and one wrong move with the throttle would rip my entire drive line apart. If I had the time and $ my dream set up would be the Isuzu 3.9 4bd1t with new transmission and axles but that won't be happening in the near future. This is what attracted me to the OM617, there are now conversion kits available and I can leave my driveline, keeping the costs down.
Bike Mike
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-18-2010, 01:14 PM #9The 617 is a great engine it simple to work on and a super easy swap almost no wiring!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
1990 Mercury Blue Max Cougar 3.8L with Automatic
Future OM617 Super Turbo Diesel Conversion with T56 6 Speed Manual
I thought I'd throw this in.It may be of interest since you're going for an expedition styled set up. http://www.seriestrek.com/buildintro.html You may have already seen it.
1990 Mercury Blue Max Cougar 3.8L with Automatic
Future OM617 Super Turbo Diesel Conversion with T56 6 Speed Manual
(11-18-2010, 02:04 PM)ben2go I thought I'd throw this in.It may be of interest since you're going for an expedition styled set up. http://www.seriestrek.com/buildintro.html You may have already seen it.
That is one and his original 616 into an Land Rover 88 is what got me thinking about this. Unfotunately he stopped making the conversion kits for sale. I found another company in EU that has a kit for the 617 and one for the 603 and other 6 cylinder motors, plus there is a guy in the US working on a kit to fit 617's into newer Land Rovers. With the other conversion kits for GMs and Jeeps already out there, I think we will see more 617's going into small to mid size 4x4's.
Bike Mike
(11-18-2010, 02:04 PM)ben2go I thought I'd throw this in.It may be of interest since you're going for an expedition styled set up. http://www.seriestrek.com/buildintro.html You may have already seen it.
That is one and his original 616 into an Land Rover 88 is what got me thinking about this. Unfotunately he stopped making the conversion kits for sale. I found another company in EU that has a kit for the 617 and one for the 603 and other 6 cylinder motors, plus there is a guy in the US working on a kit to fit 617's into newer Land Rovers. With the other conversion kits for GMs and Jeeps already out there, I think we will see more 617's going into small to mid size 4x4's.
Bike Mike
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-18-2010, 04:31 PM #12The best part about the 617 is cost and parts are every where!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
So if you guys had your choice, what car would you get an engine from? I have to give year and model of car, and then wait to get a recently written off vehicles engine and ancillaries. I thought that I read that there are 2 different turbo positions, what's the difference? I'd like to get an AC set up as well to power my on board compressor, did they all have AC? Over time I will also try and modify it for more lower end torque but I don't know if that makes a difference. Did they all use the same IP or is there one better for modifying.
I will try and get some spare parts at the same time as getting the engine to keep the cost down.
Thanks again for any info, in this thread and all the others I've been reading.
Bike Mike
I've noticed. I didn't realize how common they were until I asked my wrecker contact about MB engines today. He seemed worried until I said the engine from an 84-85 300TD, then he just smiled and said "no problem, those are dirt cheap, let me know when you want one". I like when used parts supplies are that good. I'm guessing that I'm looking for an 83-85 300TD or SDL.
So if you guys had your choice, what car would you get an engine from? I have to give year and model of car, and then wait to get a recently written off vehicles engine and ancillaries. I thought that I read that there are 2 different turbo positions, what's the difference? I'd like to get an AC set up as well to power my on board compressor, did they all have AC? Over time I will also try and modify it for more lower end torque but I don't know if that makes a difference. Did they all use the same IP or is there one better for modifying.
I will try and get some spare parts at the same time as getting the engine to keep the cost down.
Thanks again for any info, in this thread and all the others I've been reading.
Bike Mike
did you decide on you want the 617?
here is the pump details
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/ip-f...t-189.html
I saw a chart that shows what turbo is in what year/model
http://www.turbo-product.com/Mercedes-Benz/
hope these are helpful.
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
I think all om617 are mw pump,right?
did you decide on you want the 617?
here is the pump details
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/ip-f...t-189.html
I saw a chart that shows what turbo is in what year/model
http://www.turbo-product.com/Mercedes-Benz/
hope these are helpful.
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
Looks like 81-85 OM617.951 and OM617.952 made 125HP and 180ft.lbs. of torque.I would go by these numbers and not the car.People do a lot of swapping of engines,so you can never tell what's what until you look it over.
99% of all American OM617 use an MW IP.The best for tuning is the M IP.Myna only deals with the M version.They're hard to find, but if you sweet talk ForcedInduction,he might be able to come up with one.I still think he has confuscated all the south eastern cars.I can't find one no where.
1990 Mercury Blue Max Cougar 3.8L with Automatic
Future OM617 Super Turbo Diesel Conversion with T56 6 Speed Manual
Here's all the info about the OM617 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_OM617_engine
Looks like 81-85 OM617.951 and OM617.952 made 125HP and 180ft.lbs. of torque.I would go by these numbers and not the car.People do a lot of swapping of engines,so you can never tell what's what until you look it over.
99% of all American OM617 use an MW IP.The best for tuning is the M IP.Myna only deals with the M version.They're hard to find, but if you sweet talk ForcedInduction,he might be able to come up with one.I still think he has confuscated all the south eastern cars.I can't find one no where.
1990 Mercury Blue Max Cougar 3.8L with Automatic
Future OM617 Super Turbo Diesel Conversion with T56 6 Speed Manual
(11-18-2010, 08:57 PM)ben2go 99% of all American OM617 use an MW IP.The best for tuning is the M IP.Myna only deals with the M version.They're hard to find, but if you sweet talk ForcedInduction,he might be able to come up with one.I still think he has confuscated all the south eastern cars.I can't find one no where.
Speaking of which I always wanted to ask what vehicles the M pump came on. Does anyone have a list or chart??
And yes... Forced do you have any M-pumps left??
"Molly" Jan. '84 black/tan 300d 180k miles, two owner car
Silberpfeil
11-18-2010, 11:33 PM #16(11-18-2010, 08:57 PM)ben2go 99% of all American OM617 use an MW IP.The best for tuning is the M IP.Myna only deals with the M version.They're hard to find, but if you sweet talk ForcedInduction,he might be able to come up with one.I still think he has confuscated all the south eastern cars.I can't find one no where.
Speaking of which I always wanted to ask what vehicles the M pump came on. Does anyone have a list or chart??
And yes... Forced do you have any M-pumps left??
"Molly" Jan. '84 black/tan 300d 180k miles, two owner car
The wreckers don't seem to care about engine #'s, just what the car is. I can then go and confirm it's the engine I want. The other option would be to buy a running car but I already have too many cars in the driveway.
Thanks for the links to the turbo charts.
I would also be interested in knowing what cars the M pump was used in, or if FI has any left. I also have relatives in the UK that may be able to help me get one if they are more common over there.
Bike Mike
Yes I have decided to go with the 617. I think with some modifications it will work, and if it doesn't have enough power then I will put it in the smaller Land Rover that the wife wants.
The wreckers don't seem to care about engine #'s, just what the car is. I can then go and confirm it's the engine I want. The other option would be to buy a running car but I already have too many cars in the driveway.
Thanks for the links to the turbo charts.
I would also be interested in knowing what cars the M pump was used in, or if FI has any left. I also have relatives in the UK that may be able to help me get one if they are more common over there.
Bike Mike
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-19-2010, 10:59 AM #18Any euro 300d non turbo is fitted with an m pump
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
(11-19-2010, 12:34 AM)MikeJRA Yes I have decided to go with the 617.
I think it will be a good match. You'll have much more power but it won't be paint shaking.
Lots of G wagens have these engines in.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-20-2010, 12:29 PM #20It also a very popular swap in to a unimog!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
12-02-2010, 04:45 PM #21Hi MikeJRA, I remember seeing a 90 series Land Rover in Ireland several years ago,transplanted with a naturally aspirated OM617 and it was very successful.....if you succeed with a tuned version of the OM617 Turbo, you're going to have a runaway success and a far superior machine to drive. The Mercedes engine is a far superior,smoother more civilised powerplant. Those TDI land Rover engines(200 & 300) weren't great in service,hemorrhaging oil from every possible oil seal in the engine whilst being rather gutless at the lower end and agricultural to drive. Good luck in your endeavours and you will definitely have a successful outcome which will put a smile on your face everytime you turn the key!
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
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