6mm elements into 'M' type on N/A 617
6mm elements into 'M' type on N/A 617
11-27-2010, 09:01 AM
#1
Tomnik has been experimenting with his 7.5mm in a N/A 617 engine and as the injection duration is the shorter than the 5.5mm std. elements for the same quantity delivered has gained power--Without Smoke, and on a N/A engine...
I had initially planned to have a 617 IP modded by Tom for my N/A 617 with the 7.5mm but being made unemployed recently, this and the plan to fit my 606 to a W123 are on hold....
The conversion for 6mm into this already faulty pump should cost me nothing as I can prob. use a proper Test-Bench at a friends diesel-injection shop, and his selection of rollers to set the elements up.
Any thoughts?
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
11-27-2010, 09:01 AM #1As I have a spare electronic IP from a 606 I'm thinking of replacing the elements in an 'M' type for a617 thats had moisture damage of its elements, due to poor storage, The rest of the pump is perfectly fine and in fact even spotless inside.
Tomnik has been experimenting with his 7.5mm in a N/A 617 engine and as the injection duration is the shorter than the 5.5mm std. elements for the same quantity delivered has gained power--Without Smoke, and on a N/A engine...
I had initially planned to have a 617 IP modded by Tom for my N/A 617 with the 7.5mm but being made unemployed recently, this and the plan to fit my 606 to a W123 are on hold....
The conversion for 6mm into this already faulty pump should cost me nothing as I can prob. use a proper Test-Bench at a friends diesel-injection shop, and his selection of rollers to set the elements up.
Any thoughts?
11-27-2010, 09:48 AM
#3
A 5.5mm element and a delivery stroke of 1mm will supply 23.76 ish Cubic MM of fuel...
A 6.0mm element and a delivery stroke of 1mm will supply 28.28 ish Cubic MM of fuel....
So, it may be worth exploring....
Alastair E
11-27-2010, 09:48 AM #3Well, a few Very Rough calcs suggest this-
A 5.5mm element and a delivery stroke of 1mm will supply 23.76 ish Cubic MM of fuel...
A 6.0mm element and a delivery stroke of 1mm will supply 28.28 ish Cubic MM of fuel....
So, it may be worth exploring....
11-27-2010, 01:55 PM
#4
The NA OM606 delivers 148 HP or so. I would think a prepped OM617 with 6mm elements might come close.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
I think it's a great idea. One project that I've always thought would be cool would be to build a NA engine and optimize the initake/exhaust for best flow with long pipes, porting, etc...
The NA OM606 delivers 148 HP or so. I would think a prepped OM617 with 6mm elements might come close.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
11-27-2010, 03:51 PM
#5
(11-27-2010, 01:55 PM)E300TSC I think it's a great idea. One project that I've always thought would be cool would be to build a NA engine and optimize the initake/exhaust for best flow with long pipes, porting, etc...
The NA OM606 delivers 148 HP or so. I would think a prepped OM617 with 6mm elements might come close.
Well, I'm goona try it I think. Prob be a while to get sorted, Ive got to get the 'test-bed' actually roadworthy first, not much to do, only the brakes...
The N/A 606 has a huge advantage over the old 617, its got a much better volumetric efficiency what with its quad-valve head, so I doubt I could get anywhere near the same powers, but If I was to get say, 100-110 BHP just by changing the elements and without excess smoke or EGT it'll be worth it....
Tomnik using the 7.5mm reckoned the acceleration was hugely different to before, probably due to the shorter injection duration for the same quantity of fuel....
Alastair E
11-27-2010, 03:51 PM #5(11-27-2010, 01:55 PM)E300TSC I think it's a great idea. One project that I've always thought would be cool would be to build a NA engine and optimize the initake/exhaust for best flow with long pipes, porting, etc...
The NA OM606 delivers 148 HP or so. I would think a prepped OM617 with 6mm elements might come close.
Well, I'm goona try it I think. Prob be a while to get sorted, Ive got to get the 'test-bed' actually roadworthy first, not much to do, only the brakes...
The N/A 606 has a huge advantage over the old 617, its got a much better volumetric efficiency what with its quad-valve head, so I doubt I could get anywhere near the same powers, but If I was to get say, 100-110 BHP just by changing the elements and without excess smoke or EGT it'll be worth it....
Tomnik using the 7.5mm reckoned the acceleration was hugely different to before, probably due to the shorter injection duration for the same quantity of fuel....
11-27-2010, 04:33 PM
#6
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
I'd be willing to bet that if you created long tube intake/exhaust with velocity stacks and ported the head, you could get some good flow numbers out of it.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
11-27-2010, 07:15 PM
#7
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-27-2010, 07:15 PM #7sound like a good base for a supercharger set up!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
11-28-2010, 10:01 AM
#8
(11-27-2010, 07:15 PM)willbhere4u sound like a good base for a supercharger set up!
Hmm, Dunno about that....
I'm working with all Non Turbo machinery. Turbo 617 is rarer than hen's teeth here....
Would love to fit a turbo with just a little boost to my 'nice' wagon below, but for experiments I'm going to mod up the 'test-bed' which is my 280TE/300TD 'conversion', which structurally and mechanically is a great car but doesn't look pretty,--in fact it wouldnt look out of place on a Mad-Max film!
....--Nothing a GOOD re-spray wouldnt put right though
This has a fully re-built 617 N/A engine which I had re-bored and has had all parts replaced. All the conversion work, wiring and other tedious stuff is completed, and it runs. Halfway through rebuilding braking system and trying to find why ABS doesn't work--but sure Thats all to do with my faulty OVP
Shouldnt take long, just need to spend a day or so doing it....
Alastair E
11-28-2010, 10:01 AM #8(11-27-2010, 07:15 PM)willbhere4u sound like a good base for a supercharger set up!
Hmm, Dunno about that....
I'm working with all Non Turbo machinery. Turbo 617 is rarer than hen's teeth here....
Would love to fit a turbo with just a little boost to my 'nice' wagon below, but for experiments I'm going to mod up the 'test-bed' which is my 280TE/300TD 'conversion', which structurally and mechanically is a great car but doesn't look pretty,--in fact it wouldnt look out of place on a Mad-Max film!
....--Nothing a GOOD re-spray wouldnt put right though
This has a fully re-built 617 N/A engine which I had re-bored and has had all parts replaced. All the conversion work, wiring and other tedious stuff is completed, and it runs. Halfway through rebuilding braking system and trying to find why ABS doesn't work--but sure Thats all to do with my faulty OVP
Shouldnt take long, just need to spend a day or so doing it....
11-29-2010, 12:46 PM
#10
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
There are special tools needed to get the elements in and out (removing cam shaft). This is what stalled my work on similar project.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
11-29-2010, 12:56 PM
#11
(11-29-2010, 12:46 PM)winmutt There are special tools needed to get the elements in and out (removing cam shaft). This is what stalled my work on similar project.
Nah, I have access to a full 'Injection-Shop' and as I recall, there are pins you shove in holes to hold the spring/roller up to allow the cam to be removed....
Either way, it souldnt be much of an issue for my 'tame injection guy'...
Alastair E
11-29-2010, 12:56 PM #11(11-29-2010, 12:46 PM)winmutt There are special tools needed to get the elements in and out (removing cam shaft). This is what stalled my work on similar project.
Nah, I have access to a full 'Injection-Shop' and as I recall, there are pins you shove in holes to hold the spring/roller up to allow the cam to be removed....
Either way, it souldnt be much of an issue for my 'tame injection guy'...
11-29-2010, 05:24 PM
#13
(11-29-2010, 03:45 PM)tomnik Hi,
about 55ccm/1000 was the delivery my friend's 617 N/A could burn (without excessive smoke) with 7mm elements.
Tom
Ah, Cheers Tom!
I was wondering how much I could initially set the pump for, I was going to set at std. plus a little more, then tweak from there.
I'll set to 55ccm/1K, hopefully there will be sufficient delivery in the required time with my much smaller 6mm elements....
--Just to confirm, This is 55/1k before foldback of governor?
Alastair E
11-29-2010, 05:24 PM #13(11-29-2010, 03:45 PM)tomnik Hi,
about 55ccm/1000 was the delivery my friend's 617 N/A could burn (without excessive smoke) with 7mm elements.
Tom
Ah, Cheers Tom!
I was wondering how much I could initially set the pump for, I was going to set at std. plus a little more, then tweak from there.
I'll set to 55ccm/1K, hopefully there will be sufficient delivery in the required time with my much smaller 6mm elements....
--Just to confirm, This is 55/1k before foldback of governor?
11-30-2010, 04:25 AM
#15
(11-30-2010, 01:12 AM)tomnik Hi Alastair,
55 ccm is max. delivery, adjusted on the lower left screw behind the governor cover.
I got it back from the shop with higher adjustment and we adapted it to the car and put it back on the bench to get the data.
Tom
Ah, great. 55/1K it is then....
Any idea what the 'std' quantity was for the N/A 617?
Alastair E
11-30-2010, 04:25 AM #15(11-30-2010, 01:12 AM)tomnik Hi Alastair,
55 ccm is max. delivery, adjusted on the lower left screw behind the governor cover.
I got it back from the shop with higher adjustment and we adapted it to the car and put it back on the bench to get the data.
Tom
Ah, great. 55/1K it is then....
Any idea what the 'std' quantity was for the N/A 617?
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