Element delivery timing on M pump / possible solution to my knocking.
Element delivery timing on M pump / possible solution to my knocking.
I am fairly convinced my 603 problems are early injection on #1.
Symptoms: Bad knocking on #1. Lots (you can see me from space) of diesel smoke when cold. No other smoke the rest of the time. Loosen injector line no clack. Replaced injector. Still clacks. Engine idles smooth and plenty of power. Compression is OK at 310.
As its number #1 I think the delivery valve is in backwards OR the seal is bad. Other option is prechamber.
My next course of action is to get a steth and verify position of noise, then peek in the prechamber hole and make sure the ball is there. Following that I am going to adjust timing and see if I can make it go away before the rest start clacking. Hopefully it is timing. I dont think its a rod knock, I am certainly hoping its not.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
On the M pump only delivery time is is adjustable and that is by where it sit on the rack right?
I am fairly convinced my 603 problems are early injection on #1.
Symptoms: Bad knocking on #1. Lots (you can see me from space) of diesel smoke when cold. No other smoke the rest of the time. Loosen injector line no clack. Replaced injector. Still clacks. Engine idles smooth and plenty of power. Compression is OK at 310.
As its number #1 I think the delivery valve is in backwards OR the seal is bad. Other option is prechamber.
My next course of action is to get a steth and verify position of noise, then peek in the prechamber hole and make sure the ball is there. Following that I am going to adjust timing and see if I can make it go away before the rest start clacking. Hopefully it is timing. I dont think its a rod knock, I am certainly hoping its not.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
ForcedInduction
10-11-2010, 10:42 AM
#2
Individual timing is behind the side panel. You loosen the screw and slide the attachment point to turn the barrel, same as you would do rotating the barrel on top of the MW.
On the M pump timing is set by height of the roller on the cam. If you move the segment that is connected to the fuel control rack under the cover you are going to be changing fuel quantity for that cylinder. The chances of you getting it correct are slim to none.
I don't ever suggest touching either adjustment. However, some have had luck getting their engine smooth by tailoring each barrel adjustment to the engine's actual needs instead of just the same spec across the board from a piece of paper. The only reason its not adjusted that way in the real-world assembly is the cost and labor, its easier just to set everything the same.
With modern common rail injection the computer has the ability to adjust each injector's delivery balance on the fly.
ForcedInduction
10-11-2010, 12:30 PM
#4
The roller is start of delivery. He needs to adjust quantity, which is what the rack adjustment will do.
I don't ever suggest touching either adjustment. However, some have had luck getting their engine smooth by tailoring each barrel adjustment to the engine's actual needs instead of just the same spec across the board from a piece of paper. The only reason its not adjusted that way in the real-world assembly is the cost and labor, its easier just to set everything the same.
With modern common rail injection the computer has the ability to adjust each injector's delivery balance on the fly.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I need to adjust timing not quantity. I didn't plan on changing it, I just wanted to get the image in my head. I can't find any diagrams on the M only MW (only had MW pumps in past).
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(10-11-2010, 01:55 PM)winmutt I need to adjust timing not quantity. I didn't plan on changing it, I just wanted to get the image in my head. I can't find any diagrams on the M only MW (only had MW pumps in past).
Does the smoke clear after warm up? What color is the smoke? Black, white, blue? When it is "clacking" is the idle smooth? Is this only on the first start of the day?
(10-11-2010, 01:55 PM)winmutt I need to adjust timing not quantity. I didn't plan on changing it, I just wanted to get the image in my head. I can't find any diagrams on the M only MW (only had MW pumps in past).
Does the smoke clear after warm up? What color is the smoke? Black, white, blue? When it is "clacking" is the idle smooth? Is this only on the first start of the day?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I checked all the lifters none collapse. Have been on m1 for 6 mos now. Smoke is gone as soon as turbo kicks in first time. Its grey smoke (early ignition). I did another test after this post. Starting cold and cracked #1 and no smoke. Engine is smooth with clacking.. Clacking is consistent. Sometimes noisier than others. Very audible. Goes away wen reved.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
ForcedInduction
10-14-2010, 06:30 AM
#9
Sounds like what my 300D is doing with its burnt exhaust valve. You should do compression and leak down tests.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Compression was 310ish, probably higher, I was testing via injector hole with HF kit... I did a better job of testing #2 and probably should have gone back and redone number 1.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
In your first post you mentioned a delivery valve upside down. Did you seal the top of this pump at some point? You may want to move the whole delivery valve to another cyl. To see if the smoke moves. Don't use a magnet to pick it out of the hole or the barrel may come up and out of the alignment pin.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I did nothing to the pump, merely musing as to what the problem could be. The other alternative has been covered, sticking exhaust valve, although it seems that that would tapping regardless of injection or not. I'm just trying to rule out everything before the head.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
So this morning halfway through my commute I noticed the clacking as much quieter than normal. Normal loudness when I got to work.... Testing timing this Sunday.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(10-21-2010, 12:48 PM)winmutt So this morning halfway through my commute I noticed the clacking as much quieter than normal. Normal loudness when I got to work.... Testing timing this Sunday.
Same problem for me. My '91 300D doesn't clack at all on first start up with glow plugs on. Within a minute the clacking gradually increases as the glow plugs shut off. What do you think?
turbodeezl
10-21-2010, 02:32 PM #14(10-21-2010, 12:48 PM)winmutt So this morning halfway through my commute I noticed the clacking as much quieter than normal. Normal loudness when I got to work.... Testing timing this Sunday.
Same problem for me. My '91 300D doesn't clack at all on first start up with glow plugs on. Within a minute the clacking gradually increases as the glow plugs shut off. What do you think?
(10-21-2010, 02:32 PM)turbodeezlAlmost certainly injectors. Easy enough fix(10-21-2010, 12:48 PM)winmutt So this morning halfway through my commute I noticed the clacking as much quieter than normal. Normal loudness when I got to work.... Testing timing this Sunday.
Same problem for me. My '91 300D doesn't clack at all on first start up with glow plugs on. Within a minute the clacking gradually increases as the glow plugs shut off. What do you think?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(10-21-2010, 02:32 PM)turbodeezlAlmost certainly injectors. Easy enough fix(10-21-2010, 12:48 PM)winmutt So this morning halfway through my commute I noticed the clacking as much quieter than normal. Normal loudness when I got to work.... Testing timing this Sunday.
Same problem for me. My '91 300D doesn't clack at all on first start up with glow plugs on. Within a minute the clacking gradually increases as the glow plugs shut off. What do you think?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
GRRRR How do you get to the lower bolt on the IP? Without taking off the fan etc I dont see an easy way. I did a cold compression test and it was just over 300. Not to bad. Points even more to the pump.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
ForcedInduction
10-24-2010, 09:00 PM
#17
You really need to do a leakdown first so you don't go needlessly replacing expen$ive parts in a goose chase.
(10-25-2010, 10:38 AM)winmutt With decent compression numbers what would be the point of a leakdown test?
310psi isn't that great for a 603, even my old questionable history engines average 340psi on the good cylinders. Why replace the pump on a guess when a $20 tester can eliminate or confirm the significant possibility of a damaged valve? Diagnosis is what separates a technician from a parts changer.
ForcedInduction
10-25-2010, 02:50 PM
#19
(10-25-2010, 10:38 AM)winmutt With decent compression numbers what would be the point of a leakdown test?
310psi isn't that great for a 603, even my old questionable history engines average 340psi on the good cylinders. Why replace the pump on a guess when a $20 tester can eliminate or confirm the significant possibility of a damaged valve? Diagnosis is what separates a technician from a parts changer.
(10-25-2010, 02:50 PM)ForcedInduction(10-25-2010, 10:38 AM)winmutt With decent compression numbers what would be the point of a leakdown test?
310psi isn't that great for a 603, even my old questionable history engines average 340psi on the good cylinders. Why replace the pump on a guess when a $20 tester can eliminate or confirm the significant possibility of a damaged valve? Diagnosis is what separates a technician from a parts changer.
Its not great but its within spec. 310 was on my first try, I had the sealing rings on the compression tester wrong. Just over 300 cold. But you had a point, any excuse for more toys. I found a spare known good pump for $100 I am probably going to get it as well. This sunday I noticed a good amount of oil coming from the bottom of the IP.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(10-25-2010, 02:50 PM)ForcedInduction(10-25-2010, 10:38 AM)winmutt With decent compression numbers what would be the point of a leakdown test?
310psi isn't that great for a 603, even my old questionable history engines average 340psi on the good cylinders. Why replace the pump on a guess when a $20 tester can eliminate or confirm the significant possibility of a damaged valve? Diagnosis is what separates a technician from a parts changer.
Its not great but its within spec. 310 was on my first try, I had the sealing rings on the compression tester wrong. Just over 300 cold. But you had a point, any excuse for more toys. I found a spare known good pump for $100 I am probably going to get it as well. This sunday I noticed a good amount of oil coming from the bottom of the IP.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
The saga continues. Last couple of mornings as it has been wicked cold (30s) the knocking is inaudible after the engine is warm. Still no leakdown test or even IP timing. I think I am going to check cam and IP timing this weekend.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(12-02-2010, 11:19 AM)winmutt The saga continues. Last couple of mornings as it has been wicked cold (30s) the knocking is inaudible after the engine is warm. Still no leakdown test or even IP timing. I think I am going to check cam and IP timing this weekend.
Hey man did an IP swap fix it? I have the same issue!!
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(12-02-2010, 11:19 AM)winmutt The saga continues. Last couple of mornings as it has been wicked cold (30s) the knocking is inaudible after the engine is warm. Still no leakdown test or even IP timing. I think I am going to check cam and IP timing this weekend.
Hey man did an IP swap fix it? I have the same issue!!
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
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