OM606.962+holset HE351VE VGT+Myna Pump
OM606.962+holset HE351VE VGT+Myna Pump
09-14-2010, 12:41 AM
#51
did you do the vane control yourself?
Is the controller capable of controlling the vanes following a boost pressure over load graph?
Is the vane control programmable directly or does it require additional stuff? (not talking about the vane actuator).
Which parameters did you connect for the vane control, except actual boost and load signal (pedal position or ?)?
Tom
Thanks,
did you do the vane control yourself?
Is the controller capable of controlling the vanes following a boost pressure over load graph?
Is the vane control programmable directly or does it require additional stuff? (not talking about the vane actuator).
Which parameters did you connect for the vane control, except actual boost and load signal (pedal position or ?)?
Tom
09-14-2010, 11:32 AM
#52
(09-14-2010, 12:41 AM)tomnik Thanks,Yes i do the vane control myself.
did you do the vane control yourself?
Is the controller capable of controlling the vanes following a boost pressure over load graph?
Is the vane control programmable directly or does it require additional stuff? (not talking about the vane actuator).
Which parameters did you connect for the vane control, except actual boost and load signal (pedal position or ?)?
Tom
It is mecanically adjustet to give around 7 psi crusing. inspired by "muuris"
At the picture you see how i limit boost, at 4.0 Volt = 20 psi EGP the wanes start to open. and hold the EGP stable at around 25 psi.
nothing additionel is needet, just the vacuum valve, from the W210.
You can mount more vacuum valve in serial, and also limit boost by TPS or RPM. or Gear.
Yes many possibilities in that controller :-)
Attached Files
Image(s)1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
(09-14-2010, 12:41 AM)tomnik Thanks,Yes i do the vane control myself.
did you do the vane control yourself?
Is the controller capable of controlling the vanes following a boost pressure over load graph?
Is the vane control programmable directly or does it require additional stuff? (not talking about the vane actuator).
Which parameters did you connect for the vane control, except actual boost and load signal (pedal position or ?)?
Tom
It is mecanically adjustet to give around 7 psi crusing. inspired by "muuris"
At the picture you see how i limit boost, at 4.0 Volt = 20 psi EGP the wanes start to open. and hold the EGP stable at around 25 psi.
nothing additionel is needet, just the vacuum valve, from the W210.
You can mount more vacuum valve in serial, and also limit boost by TPS or RPM. or Gear.
Yes many possibilities in that controller :-)
Attached Files
Image(s)1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
09-14-2010, 12:32 PM
#54
(09-14-2010, 12:18 PM)muuris Nice work! Now just add a servo or similar to to LDA's jobThanks
I alredy have a nice working LDA, the new one from myna ;-)
Attached Files
Image(s)1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
(09-14-2010, 12:18 PM)muuris Nice work! Now just add a servo or similar to to LDA's jobThanks
I alredy have a nice working LDA, the new one from myna ;-)
Attached Files
Image(s)1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
09-15-2010, 09:06 AM
#56
(09-14-2010, 04:32 PM)muuris Btw, since I have latest Mynä-pump without their LDA: how adjustable is that? Can you set it to increase fueling at 2psi onwards and give full at 30psi?It should do exactly what you are saying give more fueling as soon just a little boost, and max out at around 1,5 - 2,0 bar i can just say it works great and no smoke at all. i don't want to adjust the LDA, just the max fuel screw.
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
(09-14-2010, 04:32 PM)muuris Btw, since I have latest Mynä-pump without their LDA: how adjustable is that? Can you set it to increase fueling at 2psi onwards and give full at 30psi?It should do exactly what you are saying give more fueling as soon just a little boost, and max out at around 1,5 - 2,0 bar i can just say it works great and no smoke at all. i don't want to adjust the LDA, just the max fuel screw.
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
09-18-2010, 09:09 AM
#57
Pretty slow at the start.
Weight of the car + driver 1900 kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDO92UQkzpM
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
Now a little video of the acceleration.
Pretty slow at the start.
Weight of the car + driver 1900 kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDO92UQkzpM
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
09-18-2010, 02:21 PM
#58
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
09-18-2010, 02:21 PM #58I like the music! haha something the Stig would listen too while going around the test track.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
09-18-2010, 02:24 PM
#59
Your tranny also shifts way too early. Even with stock 606tbo you can rev the engine to 6000 (mine has max power constant at 4800-5800). Don't know if your pump is set to reduce fueling earlier, but it's easy to tune. Now you are losing some easy potential for nothing
Ouch that slip when changing from 3rd to 4th. Will get worse soon if nothing is done about it.
Your tranny also shifts way too early. Even with stock 606tbo you can rev the engine to 6000 (mine has max power constant at 4800-5800). Don't know if your pump is set to reduce fueling earlier, but it's easy to tune. Now you are losing some easy potential for nothing
09-19-2010, 09:55 AM
#60
(09-18-2010, 02:24 PM)muuris Ouch that slip when changing from 3rd to 4th. Will get worse soon if nothing is done about it.You are rigth muuris it was not firm enogth, have just programmed it to be more firm in both shifts, 2 ->3 , and 3 -> 4 but iam not driving like that everyday :-)
Your tranny also shifts way too early. Even with stock 606tbo you can rev the engine to 6000 (mine has max power constant at 4800-5800). Don't know if your pump is set to reduce fueling earlier, but it's easy to tune. Now you are losing some easy potential for nothing
I also changed the shiftingpoints to 5400, thats the max the engine goes now, i thing myna had left the RPM screw stock, but thats easy to change later on, behind the backcover on the pump.
Muuris what backpressure have you found to give the fastest spoolup ?
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
(09-18-2010, 02:24 PM)muuris Ouch that slip when changing from 3rd to 4th. Will get worse soon if nothing is done about it.You are rigth muuris it was not firm enogth, have just programmed it to be more firm in both shifts, 2 ->3 , and 3 -> 4 but iam not driving like that everyday :-)
Your tranny also shifts way too early. Even with stock 606tbo you can rev the engine to 6000 (mine has max power constant at 4800-5800). Don't know if your pump is set to reduce fueling earlier, but it's easy to tune. Now you are losing some easy potential for nothing
I also changed the shiftingpoints to 5400, thats the max the engine goes now, i thing myna had left the RPM screw stock, but thats easy to change later on, behind the backcover on the pump.
Muuris what backpressure have you found to give the fastest spoolup ?
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
09-19-2010, 10:31 AM
#61
When throttle is floored on low rpm, backpressure was about 0,8bar when boost started to rise. When boost was 1,6bar (at about 3200rpm) backpressure was about 2,2bar. On higher revs, both 2,2bar.
That was with previous pump. Now with more fueling, boost goes higher than backpressure. Haven't done much testing though, waiting to change the valve springs and gearbox.
I found the following settings the best on mine. Less backpressure = slower spool-up. More backpressure = engine dies, slow spool-up/boost stops to build.
When throttle is floored on low rpm, backpressure was about 0,8bar when boost started to rise. When boost was 1,6bar (at about 3200rpm) backpressure was about 2,2bar. On higher revs, both 2,2bar.
That was with previous pump. Now with more fueling, boost goes higher than backpressure. Haven't done much testing though, waiting to change the valve springs and gearbox.
10-31-2010, 06:57 AM
#62
(09-13-2010, 12:24 PM)olefejer http://powertraincontrolsolutions.com/transcontrol.php
Supported only by specific dealers, no PCS support
Mercedes/Chrysler 722.6
Authorized Dealer:
R. Drake Inc.
r_drake@att.net
425-503-9233
I bougt it from Drake, he is very very helpfull,
Hey,
I am interested in this kit for my swap. What did it cost you?
Have you driven it yet? Did you have any problems, because as far as I know the PCS controller has no way of knowing what gear the transmission is actually in.
(09-13-2010, 12:24 PM)olefejer http://powertraincontrolsolutions.com/transcontrol.php
Supported only by specific dealers, no PCS support
Mercedes/Chrysler 722.6
Authorized Dealer:
R. Drake Inc.
r_drake@att.net
425-503-9233
I bougt it from Drake, he is very very helpfull,
Hey,
I am interested in this kit for my swap. What did it cost you?
Have you driven it yet? Did you have any problems, because as far as I know the PCS controller has no way of knowing what gear the transmission is actually in.
10-31-2010, 07:12 AM
#63
(10-31-2010, 06:57 AM)ajarvis8(09-13-2010, 12:24 PM)olefejer http://powertraincontrolsolutions.com/transcontrol.php
Supported only by specific dealers, no PCS support
Mercedes/Chrysler 722.6
Authorized Dealer:
R. Drake Inc.
r_drake@att.net
425-503-9233
I bougt it from Drake, he is very very helpfull,
Hey,
I am interested in this kit for my swap. What did it cost you?
Have you driven it yet? Did you have any problems, because as far as I know the PCS controller has no way of knowing what gear the transmission is actually in.
Hi i paid 950$ for the controller software and complete capeling for the 722.6 gearbox.
I have been driving width this setup for 30,000 Km.
And after some initial setup problem, it has worked great since.
But Drake deliver it so that it has software in to start width, and then you just adjust it to how you like it.
I think you are rigth that it dont know what gear it is in, but it gess it from rpm speed and so on. but no problem it works great for me.
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
(10-31-2010, 06:57 AM)ajarvis8(09-13-2010, 12:24 PM)olefejer http://powertraincontrolsolutions.com/transcontrol.php
Supported only by specific dealers, no PCS support
Mercedes/Chrysler 722.6
Authorized Dealer:
R. Drake Inc.
r_drake@att.net
425-503-9233
I bougt it from Drake, he is very very helpfull,
Hey,
I am interested in this kit for my swap. What did it cost you?
Have you driven it yet? Did you have any problems, because as far as I know the PCS controller has no way of knowing what gear the transmission is actually in.
Hi i paid 950$ for the controller software and complete capeling for the 722.6 gearbox.
I have been driving width this setup for 30,000 Km.
And after some initial setup problem, it has worked great since.
But Drake deliver it so that it has software in to start width, and then you just adjust it to how you like it.
I think you are rigth that it dont know what gear it is in, but it gess it from rpm speed and so on. but no problem it works great for me.
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
10-31-2010, 07:39 AM
#65
but another one here has made a homemade controller for the IP, but cant remember who. he used a arduino board, and had it running.
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
Yes it has 3 PWM output, but i dont think you can control the 606 IP width the PCS controller.
but another one here has made a homemade controller for the IP, but cant remember who. he used a arduino board, and had it running.
1996 MB SL320 Now OM606 7 mm pump elements (myna), KKD manifold, HE341VE, 3,5" downpipe, 3" exhaust, big IC, 722.6 gearbox controller, also controls (Turbo VNT, EGT, BOOST, EGP.)
11-03-2010, 08:14 AM
#66
(09-18-2010, 02:24 PM)muuris Ouch that slip when changing from 3rd to 4th.
I should take a video of my 722.6 going from 3rd to 4th once it is warmed up - damn near seems like it is stuck in neutral.
I have to go really easy on the throttle to get it to shift quickly and avoid further damage.4L80-E swap can't come soon enough...
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
11-03-2010, 08:14 AM #66(09-18-2010, 02:24 PM)muuris Ouch that slip when changing from 3rd to 4th.
I should take a video of my 722.6 going from 3rd to 4th once it is warmed up - damn near seems like it is stuck in neutral.
I have to go really easy on the throttle to get it to shift quickly and avoid further damage.4L80-E swap can't come soon enough...
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
11-03-2010, 09:28 PM
#67
(11-03-2010, 08:14 AM)HoleshotHolset(09-18-2010, 02:24 PM)muuris Ouch that slip when changing from 3rd to 4th.
I should take a video of my 722.6 going from 3rd to 4th once it is warmed up - damn near seems like it is stuck in neutral.
4L80-E swap can't come soon enough...
Yup!
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-03-2010, 09:28 PM #67(11-03-2010, 08:14 AM)HoleshotHolset(09-18-2010, 02:24 PM)muuris Ouch that slip when changing from 3rd to 4th.
I should take a video of my 722.6 going from 3rd to 4th once it is warmed up - damn near seems like it is stuck in neutral.
4L80-E swap can't come soon enough...
Yup!
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
12-03-2010, 10:39 AM
#68
402hp is the highest power I've dynoed with it. With stiffer exhaust valve springs, 3,5" dp and 3" straight end pipe, 150gph fuel pump, 10mm fuel lines and modified filter housing, Mynä pump etc. Just won't give more. Reducing the fueling increased power until the 402 point, but it smoked even on full boost (2,0-2,5bar on different runs). It was kinda better with the old pump, which delivered much less fueling. It was smokeless at 1,6bar boost and power was 380hp.
Here is a video of VGT vane system operating on dyno.
Now after I've played a lot with adjustments, made upgrades to fuel and exhaust systems and after several dyno runs the end statement is.. He351Ve is good for just 400hp on OM606. The compressor would be good for more, but the turbine is just too small even though I have external wastegate.
402hp is the highest power I've dynoed with it. With stiffer exhaust valve springs, 3,5" dp and 3" straight end pipe, 150gph fuel pump, 10mm fuel lines and modified filter housing, Mynä pump etc. Just won't give more. Reducing the fueling increased power until the 402 point, but it smoked even on full boost (2,0-2,5bar on different runs). It was kinda better with the old pump, which delivered much less fueling. It was smokeless at 1,6bar boost and power was 380hp.
Here is a video of VGT vane system operating on dyno.
12-03-2010, 06:37 PM
#69
ForcedInduction
12-03-2010, 06:37 PM
#69
I agree. A VNT/VGT turbine's vanes should never see 100% open in normal operation. Maybe a HE431V is the next upgrade? You may be able to swap the 351's cold side onto it. From what I can find it has a 70mm turbine exducer, I don't know the inducer size.
12-04-2010, 05:33 PM
#70
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-04-2010, 06:16 PM
#71
This post was last modified: 12-04-2010, 06:18 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
12-04-2010, 06:16 PM
#71
jeemu, when are you going to grow up and stop trolling? Try posting something helpful or relevant for a change.
12-04-2010, 06:52 PM
#72
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
12-04-2010, 06:52 PM #72Here it goes again....
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
12-04-2010, 07:37 PM
#73
(12-04-2010, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction jeemu, when are you going to grow up and stop trolling? Try posting something helpful or relevant for a change.And you seriosly ask me about that?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(12-04-2010, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction jeemu, when are you going to grow up and stop trolling? Try posting something helpful or relevant for a change.And you seriosly ask me about that?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-04-2010, 11:53 PM
#74
(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Thats is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while. There is nothing you can get with a fixed vane that you cant get with a vgt/vnt and a whole lot earlier at that.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Thats is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while. There is nothing you can get with a fixed vane that you cant get with a vgt/vnt and a whole lot earlier at that.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
12-05-2010, 06:45 AM
#76
(12-04-2010, 11:53 PM)winmuttWhat i mean is that same size compressor but normal turbo turbine can get extra 150nm(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Thats is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while. There is nothing you can get with a fixed vane that you cant get with a vgt/vnt and a whole lot earlier at that.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(12-04-2010, 11:53 PM)winmuttWhat i mean is that same size compressor but normal turbo turbine can get extra 150nm(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Thats is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while. There is nothing you can get with a fixed vane that you cant get with a vgt/vnt and a whole lot earlier at that.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-05-2010, 06:58 AM
#77
(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Not everyone wants to put a dumptruck turbo on their car when something 3X smaller works just as good.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Not everyone wants to put a dumptruck turbo on their car when something 3X smaller works just as good.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-05-2010, 07:38 AM
#78
(12-05-2010, 06:58 AM)300D50Yes i know. HX40 is actually alot smaller than HE351(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Not everyone wants to put a dumptruck turbo on their car when something 3X smaller works just as good.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(12-05-2010, 06:58 AM)300D50Yes i know. HX40 is actually alot smaller than HE351(12-04-2010, 05:33 PM)jeemu That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guis, not for who want real power
Not everyone wants to put a dumptruck turbo on their car when something 3X smaller works just as good.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-05-2010, 06:26 PM
#79
(12-04-2010, 11:53 PM)winmutt Thats is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while. There is nothing you can get with a fixed vane that you cant get with a vgt/vnt and a whole lot earlier at that.It not at all that black and white. VGT/VNT helps spoolup, but at the cost of top end performance when pushed to the limit.
I replaced the He351Ve with Master Power MP58-R2 and have no regrets so far. The spoolup isn't that bad at all compared to He351V, keeping in mind this is capable of plenty more horses than that. Of course there is difference in boost gauge readings at 2000-2500rpm, but can't really tell if it actually has any less torque. At 3500 this pulls much stronger than the VGT.
(12-04-2010, 11:53 PM)winmutt Thats is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while. There is nothing you can get with a fixed vane that you cant get with a vgt/vnt and a whole lot earlier at that.It not at all that black and white. VGT/VNT helps spoolup, but at the cost of top end performance when pushed to the limit.
I replaced the He351Ve with Master Power MP58-R2 and have no regrets so far. The spoolup isn't that bad at all compared to He351V, keeping in mind this is capable of plenty more horses than that. Of course there is difference in boost gauge readings at 2000-2500rpm, but can't really tell if it actually has any less torque. At 3500 this pulls much stronger than the VGT.
12-05-2010, 07:30 PM
#80
(12-05-2010, 06:26 PM)muuris It not at all that black and white.His statement was extremely broad, it can be quite black and white. To each their own. Some people like driving in straight lines, some people like curves. Some people just like dyno numbers.
Myself, I like curves which is why big brakes and a suspension rebuild and tuning is always the first step. I will always take rolling numbers over those from a dead stop.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(12-05-2010, 06:26 PM)muuris It not at all that black and white.His statement was extremely broad, it can be quite black and white. To each their own. Some people like driving in straight lines, some people like curves. Some people just like dyno numbers.
Myself, I like curves which is why big brakes and a suspension rebuild and tuning is always the first step. I will always take rolling numbers over those from a dead stop.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
12-05-2010, 10:27 PM
#81
(12-05-2010, 06:09 AM)appie Please tell wo has taken an holset VGT apart? And who knows why we get high EGT and almost no spool when the VGT is at say 6 cm²??
I've got one and have given it a good looking over.
The first thing I noticed is that the VGT design/concept of operation is very crude and inefficient as it basically makes the turbine wheel into more of a paddle wheel as the moveable vanes extend. The more the vanes extend, the higher the back pressure, and the velocity that is increased by the increased pressure passing through the moveable vanes is only pushing on the horizontal edge and side of each turbine vane for a few degrees of rotation. After the turbine wheel vane passes the moveable vane, the rotational energy falls off because the high velocity gasses are blowing in the area in between the turbine vanes, and because the volume of exhaust is restricted by the closed vanes, the turbine wheels pitched vanes don't produce much if any torque to drive the compressor.
I like the large diameter of the turbine because the larger the diameter of a turbine, the grater the torque capability with the same pressure, but the design of the HE351VE turbine wheel requires a tremendous volume of gasses to generate the high speed torque required to drive the compressor and make pressure at a high intake volume.
A better turbine wheel design would have the vanes only from about the 2/3 to the outer diameter, as the center of the wheel does not do much other than allow gasses to pass, reducing pressure.
There are some things that can be done to increase the efficiency of the turbine wheel, but they may not be practical or as efficient as a properly designed turbine wheel for this application.
I spent some time in a turbine engine R&D facility, some time ago now, and have talked to some of the engineers there about making a new turbine wheel for the HE351VE that would more efficient for a smaller engine, but it would require an external waste gate and some $$$.
There is actually a tremendous amount of torque that a turbine wheel of that diameter can generate with a respectable spool up time as well.
If I ever find a 617a for my dyno I plan on testing some ideas I have to see if the turbos performance can be enhanced. They are cheep and available, so it would be nice if they could be made to work in a High Performance application.
(12-05-2010, 06:09 AM)appie Please tell wo has taken an holset VGT apart? And who knows why we get high EGT and almost no spool when the VGT is at say 6 cm²??
I've got one and have given it a good looking over.
The first thing I noticed is that the VGT design/concept of operation is very crude and inefficient as it basically makes the turbine wheel into more of a paddle wheel as the moveable vanes extend. The more the vanes extend, the higher the back pressure, and the velocity that is increased by the increased pressure passing through the moveable vanes is only pushing on the horizontal edge and side of each turbine vane for a few degrees of rotation. After the turbine wheel vane passes the moveable vane, the rotational energy falls off because the high velocity gasses are blowing in the area in between the turbine vanes, and because the volume of exhaust is restricted by the closed vanes, the turbine wheels pitched vanes don't produce much if any torque to drive the compressor.
I like the large diameter of the turbine because the larger the diameter of a turbine, the grater the torque capability with the same pressure, but the design of the HE351VE turbine wheel requires a tremendous volume of gasses to generate the high speed torque required to drive the compressor and make pressure at a high intake volume.
A better turbine wheel design would have the vanes only from about the 2/3 to the outer diameter, as the center of the wheel does not do much other than allow gasses to pass, reducing pressure.
There are some things that can be done to increase the efficiency of the turbine wheel, but they may not be practical or as efficient as a properly designed turbine wheel for this application.
I spent some time in a turbine engine R&D facility, some time ago now, and have talked to some of the engineers there about making a new turbine wheel for the HE351VE that would more efficient for a smaller engine, but it would require an external waste gate and some $$$.
There is actually a tremendous amount of torque that a turbine wheel of that diameter can generate with a respectable spool up time as well.
If I ever find a 617a for my dyno I plan on testing some ideas I have to see if the turbos performance can be enhanced. They are cheep and available, so it would be nice if they could be made to work in a High Performance application.
12-06-2010, 02:42 AM
#82
(12-05-2010, 06:09 AM)appie And who knows why we get high EGT and almost no spool when the VGT is at say 6 cm²?
Because that is the exhaust brake/EGR range. Its designed to crate high backpressure and temperature! In normal operation (acceleration/loaded) the vane ring will never be commanded that closed.
Those of you closing the turbine all the way, need to do some research on how VGT turbos actually operate.
(12-05-2010, 06:58 AM)300D50 Not everyone wants to put a dumptruck turbo on their car when something 3X smaller works just as good.Another person demonstrates a functioning brain.
(12-05-2010, 07:38 AM)jeemu Yes i know. HX40 is actually alot smaller than HE351Clearly you don't know because an HE351 IS an HX40. I've had the two side by side, have you?
Quote:VGT/VNT helps spoolup, but at the cost of top end performance when pushed to the limit.As rolf said, very few care about absolute top-end numbers. I'd take an engine with 400lb/ft torque at 2000rpm over an engine with 400hp at 4000rpm.
I see it every day with the buses I work with.
One set of buses has a 280hp 11.0L Cummins ISM. The other has a 280hp 8.9L Cummins ISL.
Both are 280hp but the ISM equipped buses feel MUCH more powerful. Both engines make 280hp so why should one feel stronger? Torque. The ISM makes 1250lb/ft torque while the ISL makes only 950lb/ft.
Quote:as it basically makes the turbine wheel into more of a paddle wheelUm, FIY, thats how EVERY turbo works.
Quote:The first thing I noticed is that the VGT design/concept of operation is very crude and inefficientThats because the person looking at it doesn't have a grasp on how they operate.
Quote:but it would require an external waste gateNope. A properly matched VNT/VGT turbo requires no wastegate.
This post was last modified: 12-06-2010, 02:44 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
12-06-2010, 02:42 AM
#82
(12-05-2010, 06:09 AM)appie And who knows why we get high EGT and almost no spool when the VGT is at say 6 cm²?
Because that is the exhaust brake/EGR range. Its designed to crate high backpressure and temperature! In normal operation (acceleration/loaded) the vane ring will never be commanded that closed.
Those of you closing the turbine all the way, need to do some research on how VGT turbos actually operate.
(12-05-2010, 06:58 AM)300D50 Not everyone wants to put a dumptruck turbo on their car when something 3X smaller works just as good.Another person demonstrates a functioning brain.
(12-05-2010, 07:38 AM)jeemu Yes i know. HX40 is actually alot smaller than HE351Clearly you don't know because an HE351 IS an HX40. I've had the two side by side, have you?
Quote:VGT/VNT helps spoolup, but at the cost of top end performance when pushed to the limit.As rolf said, very few care about absolute top-end numbers. I'd take an engine with 400lb/ft torque at 2000rpm over an engine with 400hp at 4000rpm.
I see it every day with the buses I work with.
One set of buses has a 280hp 11.0L Cummins ISM. The other has a 280hp 8.9L Cummins ISL.
Both are 280hp but the ISM equipped buses feel MUCH more powerful. Both engines make 280hp so why should one feel stronger? Torque. The ISM makes 1250lb/ft torque while the ISL makes only 950lb/ft.
Quote:as it basically makes the turbine wheel into more of a paddle wheelUm, FIY, thats how EVERY turbo works.
Quote:The first thing I noticed is that the VGT design/concept of operation is very crude and inefficientThats because the person looking at it doesn't have a grasp on how they operate.
Quote:but it would require an external waste gateNope. A properly matched VNT/VGT turbo requires no wastegate.
12-06-2010, 11:11 AM
#83
HX40 has 60mm compressor and 65mm turbine. So are they same?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
HE351VE has 60mm compressor and turbine.
HX40 has 60mm compressor and 65mm turbine. So are they same?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-06-2010, 11:47 AM
#84
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
12-06-2010, 11:47 AM #84I would say they may look the same, but if the numbers are different clearly not the same.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
12-06-2010, 12:07 PM
#85
My personal idee was that one flaw is the sliding ring itself.
The gasses entering the turbine are forced to a 90 bend,depending on the position of the ring more or less gasses, giving (heavy)tubulance and braking the speed of the gasses.
Now there are not much things to do about it other than trying to make an differend ringshape, with more of a radius where it's dirrected to the wheel, experimenting with the shape.
Gone take some time and hard cash....
And yes a already know that closing it means heavy EGP, have one running on a cummins in a racecombine http://www.racing4tijnje.nl
@ OM606: you cave it some good thought, i don't know if it's richt or wrong atleast your thinking about it, thanks.
My personal idee was that one flaw is the sliding ring itself.
The gasses entering the turbine are forced to a 90 bend,depending on the position of the ring more or less gasses, giving (heavy)tubulance and braking the speed of the gasses.
Now there are not much things to do about it other than trying to make an differend ringshape, with more of a radius where it's dirrected to the wheel, experimenting with the shape.
Gone take some time and hard cash....
And yes a already know that closing it means heavy EGP, have one running on a cummins in a racecombine http://www.racing4tijnje.nl
12-06-2010, 01:16 PM
#86
A down side of making a turbine wheel with such a narrow power range, is, that when the engine is not close to the speed/power range that the turbine wheel is tuned for, the turbo will not make boost.
The moveable vanes in the HE351VE are an attempt to make up for the tuned operating range of the turbine wheel, in an effort to supply lower amounts of boost at lower engine speeds, by directing the gasses to the sides of the turbine wheel vanes, "pushing them in pulses" as apposed to the constant rotational force generated by the pitched portions of the turbine blades that are tuned to generate the required torque and speed for the compressor to generate the desired pressure at the desired flow rate.
The waste gated turbine wheel design is, generally, a more efficient design as the pitched vanes are tuned to produce rotational power at a lower engine speed, but as a result, is capable of over boosting and revving the turbo if the waste gate does not effectively regulate the volume of gasses that is driving the turbine wheel. This is why OEMs often put larger waste gated turbos on smaller engines, (to prevent early/over boosting)
The HE351VEs turbine wheel is tuned to produce a max boost pressure and turbine speed when used with the engine it was designed for. Unlike a waste gated turbo, the HE351VE turbine wheel will not over rev, and the turbo will not over boost the engine if the controller malfunctions, (if used in the OEM application). That is why the gentleman is finding that the HE351VE will not make more than a certain amount of HP with out smoking; the turbine wheel is tuned to limit the boost the compressor can produce. Additionally, having a smaller displacement engine adds to the limitations, but if sufficient fuel can be delivered, without burning up the engine, to generate higher EMP than the OEM application generated, then the limiting factor is the turbine wheel.
Turbines like to run at constant speeds. The ideal set up would precisely regulate the turbine gas flow, and have a bypass on the compressor side to allow the compressor to spool with out generating boost pressure, allowing the turbo to stay spooled to at least 75% at all times. As boost is required, the waste gate and compressor bypass would each close a little, increasing the turbine power to match the compressors needs to generate that specific amount of boost at the engine speed.
Regulating a near constant turbo speed would be tricky to do based on how quickly the volume of exhaust gasses changes, let alone the degree the volume changes. In a gas turbine the volume of gasses generated do vary quite a bit obviously, but they do so relatively slowly, or the turbine will begin to surge and then bad things can happen.
The most effective point of a turbine blade is at the outer half of the blade height, (given the blade height is no more than 1/3 the length of the radius of the turbine wheel), which is where the blade is pitched the most.
The degree of the blade pitch, and the number of blades a wheel has determine the torque/speed potential of a turbine wheel. Blowing on the side of the blades obviously generates rotational force, and requires higher pressures to do so. The method is quick and dirty and met the requirements of the OEM, (cost, engine life span, emissions, drivability).
The vanes/blades of a turbine wheel in an automotive turbo charger are designed with a specific pitch to produce sufficient torque at certain engine speed and power setting, purposely delaying the rise in boost pressure until a certain engine speed is reached so the engine does not generate too much torque at a low engine speed and brake something.
A down side of making a turbine wheel with such a narrow power range, is, that when the engine is not close to the speed/power range that the turbine wheel is tuned for, the turbo will not make boost.
The moveable vanes in the HE351VE are an attempt to make up for the tuned operating range of the turbine wheel, in an effort to supply lower amounts of boost at lower engine speeds, by directing the gasses to the sides of the turbine wheel vanes, "pushing them in pulses" as apposed to the constant rotational force generated by the pitched portions of the turbine blades that are tuned to generate the required torque and speed for the compressor to generate the desired pressure at the desired flow rate.
The waste gated turbine wheel design is, generally, a more efficient design as the pitched vanes are tuned to produce rotational power at a lower engine speed, but as a result, is capable of over boosting and revving the turbo if the waste gate does not effectively regulate the volume of gasses that is driving the turbine wheel. This is why OEMs often put larger waste gated turbos on smaller engines, (to prevent early/over boosting)
The HE351VEs turbine wheel is tuned to produce a max boost pressure and turbine speed when used with the engine it was designed for. Unlike a waste gated turbo, the HE351VE turbine wheel will not over rev, and the turbo will not over boost the engine if the controller malfunctions, (if used in the OEM application). That is why the gentleman is finding that the HE351VE will not make more than a certain amount of HP with out smoking; the turbine wheel is tuned to limit the boost the compressor can produce. Additionally, having a smaller displacement engine adds to the limitations, but if sufficient fuel can be delivered, without burning up the engine, to generate higher EMP than the OEM application generated, then the limiting factor is the turbine wheel.
Turbines like to run at constant speeds. The ideal set up would precisely regulate the turbine gas flow, and have a bypass on the compressor side to allow the compressor to spool with out generating boost pressure, allowing the turbo to stay spooled to at least 75% at all times. As boost is required, the waste gate and compressor bypass would each close a little, increasing the turbine power to match the compressors needs to generate that specific amount of boost at the engine speed.
Regulating a near constant turbo speed would be tricky to do based on how quickly the volume of exhaust gasses changes, let alone the degree the volume changes. In a gas turbine the volume of gasses generated do vary quite a bit obviously, but they do so relatively slowly, or the turbine will begin to surge and then bad things can happen.
The most effective point of a turbine blade is at the outer half of the blade height, (given the blade height is no more than 1/3 the length of the radius of the turbine wheel), which is where the blade is pitched the most.
The degree of the blade pitch, and the number of blades a wheel has determine the torque/speed potential of a turbine wheel. Blowing on the side of the blades obviously generates rotational force, and requires higher pressures to do so. The method is quick and dirty and met the requirements of the OEM, (cost, engine life span, emissions, drivability).
12-06-2010, 02:05 PM
#87
Do you happen to know what the max boost is in the he351 design?
The racecombine runs a happy 3.5 bar boost,without problems sofar....
Could we place a wastegate tubinewheel in the HE vgt?
New topic? MP? poluting someone's good topic?......
Thanks thats some nice info
Do you happen to know what the max boost is in the he351 design?
The racecombine runs a happy 3.5 bar boost,without problems sofar....
Could we place a wastegate tubinewheel in the HE vgt?
New topic? MP? poluting someone's good topic?......
12-06-2010, 04:54 PM
#88
(12-06-2010, 02:42 AM)ForcedInductionI thought this was superturbodiesel and not some stock Merc forumQuote:VGT/VNT helps spoolup, but at the cost of top end performance when pushed to the limit.As rolf said, very few care about absolute top-end numbers. I'd take an engine with 400lb/ft torque at 2000rpm over an engine with 400hp at 4000rpm.
Btw, you can't get 400lb/ft @ 2000rpm from OM606+He351 and just diesel. You can get ~250 tops with reasonable smoke. I choose 190lb/ft@2000 and 500hp@4800 over 250lb/ft@2000 and 400hp@5000.
(12-06-2010, 02:05 PM)appie Do you happen to know what the max boost is in the he351 design?No reason for more than 2bars on He351 and these engines. The compressor is capable for more, but turbine is not. On 3,5bar the compressor is way out of the map.
The racecombine runs a happy 3.5 bar boost,without problems sofar....
You know it's too much fueling when vanes are fully open and boost just keeps climbing..
This post was last modified: 12-06-2010, 05:00 PM by muuris.
(12-06-2010, 02:42 AM)ForcedInductionI thought this was superturbodiesel and not some stock Merc forumQuote:VGT/VNT helps spoolup, but at the cost of top end performance when pushed to the limit.As rolf said, very few care about absolute top-end numbers. I'd take an engine with 400lb/ft torque at 2000rpm over an engine with 400hp at 4000rpm.
Btw, you can't get 400lb/ft @ 2000rpm from OM606+He351 and just diesel. You can get ~250 tops with reasonable smoke. I choose 190lb/ft@2000 and 500hp@4800 over 250lb/ft@2000 and 400hp@5000.
(12-06-2010, 02:05 PM)appie Do you happen to know what the max boost is in the he351 design?No reason for more than 2bars on He351 and these engines. The compressor is capable for more, but turbine is not. On 3,5bar the compressor is way out of the map.
The racecombine runs a happy 3.5 bar boost,without problems sofar....
You know it's too much fueling when vanes are fully open and boost just keeps climbing..
12-06-2010, 06:54 PM
#89
(12-06-2010, 12:07 PM)appie The gasses entering the turbine are forced to a 90 bend,depending on the position of the ring more or less gasses, giving (heavy)tubulance and braking the speed of the gasses.As is done with a wastegated turbo. If the gasses were to flow inline with the blades there would be very little energy transfer to the wheel. Don't forget, a turbine is just a fancy paddle wheel.
Quote:A down side of making a turbine wheel with such a narrow power range, is, that when the engine is not close to the speed/power range that the turbine wheel is tuned for, the turbo will not make boost.That is incorrect. Turbo range is limited by the fixed geometry compressor wheel. To get a wider compressor range you either need a VGC housing (winch reduces compressor efficiency) or multiple turbos (as is being migrated towards now with R2S).
Quote:The waste gated turbine wheel design is, generally, a more efficient design as the pitched vanes are tuned to produce rotational power at a lower engine speedAlso incorrect. The turbines are no different in design. Compare a GT2056 with a GT2056V and the rotating assembly is identical.
If you'll look at the vanes again, you'll also notice Holset designed the vanes with a slope. This is so the vanes have maximum directing force at closed settings and minimal restriction at open settings.
Quote:Do you happen to know what the max boost is in the he351 design?35psi on the ISB it was designed for. On a smaller engine it should be able to get a higher pressure ratio without overspeeding.
Quote:Could we place a wastegate tubinewheel in the HE vgt?No point as they are identical. If you want more flow you should look for an HE431V/VE from an ISM/ISL.
Quote:I thought this was superturbodiesel and not some stock Merc forumLet me know when you build a bottom end that holds together with that much torque at low RPM.
Quote:Btw, you can't get 400lb/ft @ 2000rpm from OM606+He351 and just diesel.Thats why I wouldn't use one, and I wouldn't use only one turbo.
Quote:I choose 190lb/ft@2000 and 500hp@4800 over 250lb/ft@2000 and 400hp@5000.You know thats funny, I would have chosen the second.
Thats been the case for a long time, but most Finns don't pick up on it. Watch a bunch of their drag race videos; You'll notice the 400hp engines are usually faster than the 500hp ones. Why? The 400hp cars get "on power" quicker because they have more torque low in the RPM range and their turbo spools up quicker.
This post was last modified: 12-06-2010, 07:01 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
12-06-2010, 06:54 PM
#89
(12-06-2010, 12:07 PM)appie The gasses entering the turbine are forced to a 90 bend,depending on the position of the ring more or less gasses, giving (heavy)tubulance and braking the speed of the gasses.As is done with a wastegated turbo. If the gasses were to flow inline with the blades there would be very little energy transfer to the wheel. Don't forget, a turbine is just a fancy paddle wheel.
Quote:A down side of making a turbine wheel with such a narrow power range, is, that when the engine is not close to the speed/power range that the turbine wheel is tuned for, the turbo will not make boost.That is incorrect. Turbo range is limited by the fixed geometry compressor wheel. To get a wider compressor range you either need a VGC housing (winch reduces compressor efficiency) or multiple turbos (as is being migrated towards now with R2S).
Quote:The waste gated turbine wheel design is, generally, a more efficient design as the pitched vanes are tuned to produce rotational power at a lower engine speedAlso incorrect. The turbines are no different in design. Compare a GT2056 with a GT2056V and the rotating assembly is identical.
If you'll look at the vanes again, you'll also notice Holset designed the vanes with a slope. This is so the vanes have maximum directing force at closed settings and minimal restriction at open settings.
Quote:Do you happen to know what the max boost is in the he351 design?35psi on the ISB it was designed for. On a smaller engine it should be able to get a higher pressure ratio without overspeeding.
Quote:Could we place a wastegate tubinewheel in the HE vgt?No point as they are identical. If you want more flow you should look for an HE431V/VE from an ISM/ISL.
Quote:I thought this was superturbodiesel and not some stock Merc forumLet me know when you build a bottom end that holds together with that much torque at low RPM.
Quote:Btw, you can't get 400lb/ft @ 2000rpm from OM606+He351 and just diesel.Thats why I wouldn't use one, and I wouldn't use only one turbo.
Quote:I choose 190lb/ft@2000 and 500hp@4800 over 250lb/ft@2000 and 400hp@5000.You know thats funny, I would have chosen the second.
Thats been the case for a long time, but most Finns don't pick up on it. Watch a bunch of their drag race videos; You'll notice the 400hp engines are usually faster than the 500hp ones. Why? The 400hp cars get "on power" quicker because they have more torque low in the RPM range and their turbo spools up quicker.
12-07-2010, 01:17 AM
#90
(12-06-2010, 12:07 PM)appie @ OM606: you cave it some good thought, i don't know if it's richt or wrong atleast your thinking about it, thanks.
My personal idee was that one flaw is the sliding ring itself.
The gasses entering the turbine are forced to a 90 bend,depending on the position of the ring more or less gasses, giving (heavy)tubulance and braking the speed of the gasses.
Now there are not much things to do about it other than trying to make an differend ringshape, with more of a radius where it's dirrected to the wheel, experimenting with the shape.
Gone take some time and hard cash....
And yes a already know that closing it means heavy EGP, have one running on a cummins in a racecombine http://www.racing4tijnje.nl
There are some things that could be tried to see if there is a benefit, but as you reiterated, they would require more money than is reasonable for a fun toy. When I get the dyno set up, I'll play with one for grins. They are cheep enough to butcher one or two up during experimentation and not feel too bad.
(12-06-2010, 12:07 PM)appie @ OM606: you cave it some good thought, i don't know if it's richt or wrong atleast your thinking about it, thanks.
My personal idee was that one flaw is the sliding ring itself.
The gasses entering the turbine are forced to a 90 bend,depending on the position of the ring more or less gasses, giving (heavy)tubulance and braking the speed of the gasses.
Now there are not much things to do about it other than trying to make an differend ringshape, with more of a radius where it's dirrected to the wheel, experimenting with the shape.
Gone take some time and hard cash....
And yes a already know that closing it means heavy EGP, have one running on a cummins in a racecombine http://www.racing4tijnje.nl
There are some things that could be tried to see if there is a benefit, but as you reiterated, they would require more money than is reasonable for a fun toy. When I get the dyno set up, I'll play with one for grins. They are cheep enough to butcher one or two up during experimentation and not feel too bad.
12-07-2010, 02:33 AM
#91
(12-06-2010, 06:54 PM)ForcedInductionThats not true and you would know that if you have some experience of these. 400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpQuote:I choose 190lb/ft@2000 and 500hp@4800 over 250lb/ft@2000 and 400hp@5000.You know thats funny, I would have chosen the second.
Thats been the case for a long time, but most Finns don't pick up on it. Watch a bunch of their drag race videos; You'll notice the 400hp engines are usually faster than the 500hp ones. Why? The 400hp cars get "on power" quicker because they have more torque low in the RPM range and their turbo spools up quicker.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(12-06-2010, 06:54 PM)ForcedInductionThats not true and you would know that if you have some experience of these. 400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpQuote:I choose 190lb/ft@2000 and 500hp@4800 over 250lb/ft@2000 and 400hp@5000.You know thats funny, I would have chosen the second.
Thats been the case for a long time, but most Finns don't pick up on it. Watch a bunch of their drag race videos; You'll notice the 400hp engines are usually faster than the 500hp ones. Why? The 400hp cars get "on power" quicker because they have more torque low in the RPM range and their turbo spools up quicker.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-07-2010, 03:11 AM
#92
(12-07-2010, 02:33 AM)jeemu Thats not trueActually, it is. All it takes is simple observation.
Quote:400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpThat blanket statement is false and vacuous.
This post was last modified: 12-07-2010, 03:13 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
12-07-2010, 03:11 AM
#92
(12-07-2010, 02:33 AM)jeemu Thats not trueActually, it is. All it takes is simple observation.
Quote:400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpThat blanket statement is false and vacuous.
12-07-2010, 04:15 AM
#93
(12-07-2010, 03:11 AM)ForcedInductionHave you race your 500hp Mercedes against 400hp Mercedes?(12-07-2010, 02:33 AM)jeemu Thats not trueActually, it is. All it takes is simple observation.
Quote:400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpThat blanket statement is false and vacuous.
I have
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(12-07-2010, 03:11 AM)ForcedInductionHave you race your 500hp Mercedes against 400hp Mercedes?(12-07-2010, 02:33 AM)jeemu Thats not trueActually, it is. All it takes is simple observation.
Quote:400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpThat blanket statement is false and vacuous.
I have
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-07-2010, 08:19 AM
#94
(12-07-2010, 04:15 AM)jeemu(12-07-2010, 03:11 AM)ForcedInductionHave you race your 500hp Mercedes against 400hp Mercedes?(12-07-2010, 02:33 AM)jeemu Thats not trueActually, it is. All it takes is simple observation.
Quote:400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpThat blanket statement is false and vacuous.
I have
Torque does the work. Horsepower gets all the credit.
I for one want more torque off the line.
I took a cut in HP of nearly 1/3 when I pulled the V6 from my truck, but my torque curve will make up for it.
This post was last modified: 12-07-2010, 08:21 AM by 300D50.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
(12-07-2010, 04:15 AM)jeemu(12-07-2010, 03:11 AM)ForcedInductionHave you race your 500hp Mercedes against 400hp Mercedes?(12-07-2010, 02:33 AM)jeemu Thats not trueActually, it is. All it takes is simple observation.
Quote:400hp is slower than 500hp and 500hp is slower than 600hpThat blanket statement is false and vacuous.
I have
Torque does the work. Horsepower gets all the credit.
I for one want more torque off the line.
I took a cut in HP of nearly 1/3 when I pulled the V6 from my truck, but my torque curve will make up for it.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-07-2010, 09:20 AM
#95
(12-07-2010, 04:15 AM)jeemu Torque does the work. Horsepower gets all the credit.
I for one want more torque off the line.
Agreed.
ForcedInduction
12-07-2010, 09:20 AM
#95
(12-07-2010, 04:15 AM)jeemu Torque does the work. Horsepower gets all the credit.
I for one want more torque off the line.
Agreed.
12-07-2010, 10:04 AM
#96
Gsxr. 110hp 42tq
Buell 1125. 146hp 82tq
1st-3rd the Buell can rip the GSXR a new hole all day long because it has roughly double the torque but up at speed the race is much closer because the horse power is doing the work. Ask me how I know
my buddy has geared his GSXR down way lower to try and get torque out of it, but there's just non there compared to what I've got on the Buell.Really in this kind of battle whether it be care bike or train. It comes down to how long the race is! In a short race the torque wins and in a super long race the horse power wins.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
12-07-2010, 10:04 AM #96Torque is what throws you back in the seat and horse power is what makes the skin peel off your face at speed ... ummm oops. Streebike reference.
Gsxr. 110hp 42tq
Buell 1125. 146hp 82tq
1st-3rd the Buell can rip the GSXR a new hole all day long because it has roughly double the torque but up at speed the race is much closer because the horse power is doing the work. Ask me how I know my buddy has geared his GSXR down way lower to try and get torque out of it, but there's just non there compared to what I've got on the Buell.
Really in this kind of battle whether it be care bike or train. It comes down to how long the race is! In a short race the torque wins and in a super long race the horse power wins.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
12-07-2010, 10:24 AM
#97
(12-07-2010, 10:04 AM)Captain America horse power is what makes the skin peel off your face at speedThats actually torque too.
Horsepower is nothing more than math for torque over time.
The GSXR is faster on the high end because it makes its power in the 11krpm range while the Buell is mid-9krpm peak power. Its the same way a 3.0L car engine makes only (for example) 200hp yet a 3.0L F1 makes over 900hp and a 1.3L Geo makes 80hp while a 1.3L RX-7 makes 145hp. RPM. Ditto with many Finns revving their engines over 6000rpm to make inflated power numbers.
This post was last modified: 12-07-2010, 10:33 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
12-07-2010, 10:24 AM
#97
(12-07-2010, 10:04 AM)Captain America horse power is what makes the skin peel off your face at speedThats actually torque too.
Horsepower is nothing more than math for torque over time.
The GSXR is faster on the high end because it makes its power in the 11krpm range while the Buell is mid-9krpm peak power. Its the same way a 3.0L car engine makes only (for example) 200hp yet a 3.0L F1 makes over 900hp and a 1.3L Geo makes 80hp while a 1.3L RX-7 makes 145hp. RPM. Ditto with many Finns revving their engines over 6000rpm to make inflated power numbers.
12-07-2010, 10:29 AM
#98
You want more HP? You have to play with where the torque is, and how much there is.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
HP is a function of RPM and torque.
You want more HP? You have to play with where the torque is, and how much there is.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-07-2010, 10:38 AM
#99
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/hor...index.html
Here I read that horsepower measurements of a device like a motor are based in part on torque measurments.
So, if your comparing 2 motors the torque #s might be very intuitive to see that 300>200 and 400>300.
But, compare 2 motors with different torque #s and then their horsepower numbers won't follow a linear relationship.
Seems like torque is just an more straightforward measurement to compare.
Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
I'm certainly no expert but, I do love math, physics and all science really.
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/hor...index.html
Here I read that horsepower measurements of a device like a motor are based in part on torque measurments.
So, if your comparing 2 motors the torque #s might be very intuitive to see that 300>200 and 400>300.
But, compare 2 motors with different torque #s and then their horsepower numbers won't follow a linear relationship.
Seems like torque is just an more straightforward measurement to compare.
Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
12-07-2010, 11:09 AM
#100
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
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