TQ vs HP, DD vs Dyno queen flame war
TQ vs HP, DD vs Dyno queen flame war
12-08-2010, 04:24 PM
#2
This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 04:25 PM by willbhere4u.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
12-08-2010, 04:24 PM #2And please post videos! Or it's no fun for every one else LOL!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
12-08-2010, 04:25 PM
#3
Inline 4 bangers can't make any low end torque to save their lives.
The V's make all low end torque, relatively flat lined.
I have owned both and the V's win every day in my book. The reason is that the low end torque is usable all the time. It provides better traction in the corners. The inlines don't make any torque until the RPM and HP is up, meaning that you are more likely to lose traction. Sure they can make it up in the straight ways, coming out of the corners but often the amount of braking going in to compensate for the loss of torque outweighs the power to weight ratio of the engine.
To me there is little point in an engine that doesn't produce decent torque until you are nearing the limits of the tires and suspension.
This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 04:26 PM by winmutt.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
In the previous post http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/om60...-1023.html I think the most relevant post was regarding motorcycles.
Inline 4 bangers can't make any low end torque to save their lives.
The V's make all low end torque, relatively flat lined.
I have owned both and the V's win every day in my book. The reason is that the low end torque is usable all the time. It provides better traction in the corners. The inlines don't make any torque until the RPM and HP is up, meaning that you are more likely to lose traction. Sure they can make it up in the straight ways, coming out of the corners but often the amount of braking going in to compensate for the loss of torque outweighs the power to weight ratio of the engine.
To me there is little point in an engine that doesn't produce decent torque until you are nearing the limits of the tires and suspension.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
12-08-2010, 04:25 PM
#4
HP is nothing without torque, and if you never see it in daily driving, it's just for bragging rights or "It can be done, and I was bored".
And since this is a flame thread, what's with everyone telling people to throw a wad of cash to Myna? Surely there's other places that are stateside that can do the same work for a similar price?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
I'll bite.
HP is nothing without torque, and if you never see it in daily driving, it's just for bragging rights or "It can be done, and I was bored".
And since this is a flame thread, what's with everyone telling people to throw a wad of cash to Myna? Surely there's other places that are stateside that can do the same work for a similar price?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-08-2010, 04:29 PM
#5
and at 6k it started twisting our dyno bike in half
This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 04:31 PM by willbhere4u.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
12-08-2010, 04:29 PM #5I worked on a inline N/A 1600 huyabusa engine that would make 275 hp at 10k with 3/4 throtlle!
and at 6k it started twisting our dyno bike in half
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
12-08-2010, 04:30 PM
#6
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
Maybe we can see those low rpm wide torgue range dyno graphs on SUPERTUBODIESEL guys on here?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-08-2010, 04:35 PM
#7
Maybe I'm in a mood to push buttons, debate, weild a flamethrower, and don some nomex!
(Had a CNC machine lock up during a toolchange today, lost an hour and a half of productivity getting it un-jammed... so I'm in rare-ish form...)
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Maybe not everyone has time to spend at a dyno shop? Maybe people are looking for pointers before doing things?
Maybe I'm in a mood to push buttons, debate, weild a flamethrower, and don some nomex!
(Had a CNC machine lock up during a toolchange today, lost an hour and a half of productivity getting it un-jammed... so I'm in rare-ish form...)
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-08-2010, 04:37 PM
#8
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)300D50 And since this is a flame thread, what's with everyone telling people to throw a wad of cash to Myna? Surely there's other places that are stateside that can do the same work for a similar price?
Because Myna is the only one that we know of with lots of expertise and dependable turn around time. I would love to find a stateside alternative. Bottom line is that the price difference is not going to be all that great. Basicall VAT+shipping expenses.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)300D50 And since this is a flame thread, what's with everyone telling people to throw a wad of cash to Myna? Surely there's other places that are stateside that can do the same work for a similar price?
Because Myna is the only one that we know of with lots of expertise and dependable turn around time. I would love to find a stateside alternative. Bottom line is that the price difference is not going to be all that great. Basicall VAT+shipping expenses.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
12-08-2010, 04:46 PM
#9
Think steam engine 1000 lb of T.Q. at 2 rpm!
H.P. is calculated from T.Q. by a Dyno and is the amount of time it takes the object to accelerate!
Think F1 engine 0-20,000 rpm in like second
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
12-08-2010, 04:46 PM #9T.Q. is the amount rotational force the amount of force it takes to rotate an object!
Think steam engine 1000 lb of T.Q. at 2 rpm!
H.P. is calculated from T.Q. by a Dyno and is the amount of time it takes the object to accelerate!
Think F1 engine 0-20,000 rpm in like second
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
12-08-2010, 05:00 PM
#10
(12-08-2010, 04:37 PM)winmutt Because Myna is the only one that we know of with lots of expertise and dependable turn around time. I would love to find a stateside alternative. Bottom line is that the price difference is not going to be all that great. Basicall VAT+shipping expenses.
For me, the price isn't the direct issue, keeping the majority of the funds exchange stateside is. That and there's a mini monopoly situation that I'm seeing, but it might just be my viewpoint is skewed...
I understand there's skill and "proprietary info only x people know", but how hard can it be? Is it just the fact that you need a test bench and time?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
(12-08-2010, 04:37 PM)winmutt Because Myna is the only one that we know of with lots of expertise and dependable turn around time. I would love to find a stateside alternative. Bottom line is that the price difference is not going to be all that great. Basicall VAT+shipping expenses.
For me, the price isn't the direct issue, keeping the majority of the funds exchange stateside is. That and there's a mini monopoly situation that I'm seeing, but it might just be my viewpoint is skewed...
I understand there's skill and "proprietary info only x people know", but how hard can it be? Is it just the fact that you need a test bench and time?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-08-2010, 05:07 PM
#11
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
12-08-2010, 05:07 PM #11and part's
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
12-08-2010, 05:11 PM
#12
(12-08-2010, 05:00 PM)300D50Here is at least 3 pump makers, but Mynä-Diesel make the best one.(12-08-2010, 04:37 PM)winmutt Because Myna is the only one that we know of with lots of expertise and dependable turn around time. I would love to find a stateside alternative. Bottom line is that the price difference is not going to be all that great. Basicall VAT+shipping expenses.
For me, the price isn't the direct issue, keeping the majority of the funds exchange stateside is. That and there's a mini monopoly situation that I'm seeing, but it might just be my viewpoint is skewed...
I understand there's skill and "proprietary info only x people know", but how hard can it be? Is it just the fact that you need a test bench and time?
Everybody has freedom bui parts where they want, but i see at it is nice if someone tell me where is the best place. Dont you?
Edit: If you think at that is so easy to make pump. How much cost if you make me let s say at 250ccm 8mm?
This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 05:15 PM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(12-08-2010, 05:00 PM)300D50Here is at least 3 pump makers, but Mynä-Diesel make the best one.(12-08-2010, 04:37 PM)winmutt Because Myna is the only one that we know of with lots of expertise and dependable turn around time. I would love to find a stateside alternative. Bottom line is that the price difference is not going to be all that great. Basicall VAT+shipping expenses.
For me, the price isn't the direct issue, keeping the majority of the funds exchange stateside is. That and there's a mini monopoly situation that I'm seeing, but it might just be my viewpoint is skewed...
I understand there's skill and "proprietary info only x people know", but how hard can it be? Is it just the fact that you need a test bench and time?
Everybody has freedom bui parts where they want, but i see at it is nice if someone tell me where is the best place. Dont you?
Edit: If you think at that is so easy to make pump. How much cost if you make me let s say at 250ccm 8mm?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-08-2010, 05:19 PM
#13
I never said anything about making the elements, just about having them installed and the pump calibrated. Although if you are serious I guess I could look into it, we've done elements for rotary pumps before.
This post was last modified: 12-08-2010, 05:23 PM by 300D50.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
I've only ever been told about Myna and Dervtuning, never knew there were other alternatives.
I never said anything about making the elements, just about having them installed and the pump calibrated. Although if you are serious I guess I could look into it, we've done elements for rotary pumps before.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-08-2010, 05:41 PM
#14
(12-08-2010, 05:19 PM)300D50 I've only ever been told about Myna and Dervtuning, never knew there were other alternatives.
I never said anything about making the elements, just about having them installed and the pump calibrated. Although if you are serious I guess I could look into it, we've done elements for rotary pumps before.
I talked to a diesel tuner local to me and he said he had a pump guy that could do it. Never really got a $# from him and he works out of the house. He also wouldnt tell me the pump guys info.... I am sure there are others out there that can do it, just none with the reputation or experience that Myna has.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(12-08-2010, 05:19 PM)300D50 I've only ever been told about Myna and Dervtuning, never knew there were other alternatives.
I never said anything about making the elements, just about having them installed and the pump calibrated. Although if you are serious I guess I could look into it, we've done elements for rotary pumps before.
I talked to a diesel tuner local to me and he said he had a pump guy that could do it. Never really got a $# from him and he works out of the house. He also wouldnt tell me the pump guys info.... I am sure there are others out there that can do it, just none with the reputation or experience that Myna has.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
12-08-2010, 07:26 PM
#15
As for horsepower:HP Horsepower is a measure of the rate at which work can be done. Historically, it was derived from the ability of the average horse to carry a weight of 100 pounds over 330 feet in 1 minute, which became the equivalent measurement of one horsepower.
Ed
yankneck696
12-08-2010, 07:26 PM #15I've made several wierd combobulations in my day. Never really did the studying, math, graphs, but just stuffed things together for the heck of it. A couple were just for the strip, the rest were for the street or mud. Some were a good inbetween setup. If it were me, I would go for a good torque curve with no real worry about the HP #s. Anything I do now needsd the torque.
As for horsepower:HP Horsepower is a measure of the rate at which work can be done. Historically, it was derived from the ability of the average horse to carry a weight of 100 pounds over 330 feet in 1 minute, which became the equivalent measurement of one horsepower.
Ed
12-09-2010, 03:23 AM
#16
(12-08-2010, 05:00 PM)300D50 I understand there's skill and "proprietary info only x people know", but how hard can it be? Is it just the fact that you need a test bench and time?As jeemu said, Mynä is ultimately the best. The difference of it vs others is very clear. It can be that hard
erling66:
Graph 1, OM606, He351Ve, non-Mynä 7mm IP and auto tranny. The tq peak at 3200rpm is due to torque converter slip. Practically no smoke after 1,6bar boost (at tq peak).
Graph 2 Mynä 7mm IP and and manual tranny. Stock mechanical transfer pump. More boost and much more fueling.
After this I dynoed with Holley transfer pump, even more fueling and still didn't break 600Nm. Massive smoke. Haven't dynoed yet with current turbo, as I haven't been able to tune the settings on the road. It's been very slippery driving conditions for the past weeks. Loses traction every time it gets on boost.
willbhere4u: there u go
This post was last modified: 12-09-2010, 03:26 AM by muuris.
(12-08-2010, 05:00 PM)300D50 I understand there's skill and "proprietary info only x people know", but how hard can it be? Is it just the fact that you need a test bench and time?As jeemu said, Mynä is ultimately the best. The difference of it vs others is very clear. It can be that hard
erling66:
Graph 1, OM606, He351Ve, non-Mynä 7mm IP and auto tranny. The tq peak at 3200rpm is due to torque converter slip. Practically no smoke after 1,6bar boost (at tq peak).
Graph 2 Mynä 7mm IP and and manual tranny. Stock mechanical transfer pump. More boost and much more fueling.
After this I dynoed with Holley transfer pump, even more fueling and still didn't break 600Nm. Massive smoke. Haven't dynoed yet with current turbo, as I haven't been able to tune the settings on the road. It's been very slippery driving conditions for the past weeks. Loses traction every time it gets on boost.
willbhere4u: there u go
12-09-2010, 04:59 AM
#17
@300D50, yeah man tool change lockups suck!
Give me a quarter mile on my bloody V-tiwn bike and I'll make 4 bangers cry all day. I also make the comparison that a I-4 bike is like a 2 stroke, dirtbike for example while a V-Twin is like a four stroke (dirtbike)
If I could make a Benz motor have a dyno graph like the Rotax motor in my Buell 1125.... I would be in heaven! The same RPMs, and that would be icing on the cake.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
12-09-2010, 04:59 AM #17I like graph number 2. That's a fun one for sure! All in by about 3500? Nice!
@300D50, yeah man tool change lockups suck!
Give me a quarter mile on my bloody V-tiwn bike and I'll make 4 bangers cry all day. I also make the comparison that a I-4 bike is like a 2 stroke, dirtbike for example while a V-Twin is like a four stroke (dirtbike)
If I could make a Benz motor have a dyno graph like the Rotax motor in my Buell 1125.... I would be in heaven! The same RPMs, and that would be icing on the cake.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
12-09-2010, 06:01 PM
#18
but still we cant see those low rpm really wide rpm monster torgue graps.
Why is that?
I m curious how wide that rpm range is?
This post was last modified: 12-09-2010, 06:03 PM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
Some people seem to laugh at Finnish people an their dyno results,
but still we cant see those low rpm really wide rpm monster torgue graps.
Why is that?
I m curious how wide that rpm range is?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
12-09-2010, 11:20 PM
#19
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
12-09-2010, 11:20 PM #19That graph is great! No sarcasm! You guys don't have to prove yourself Jeemu, maybe that is what you don't understand... build one for me
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
12-09-2010, 11:36 PM
#20
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Once my truck's together and on the road, we'll see what can be done to give it some more low-end oomph. Hardest part for me will be finding a good turbo for less than an arm,leg, and left nut...
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-10-2010, 02:32 PM
#21
(12-09-2010, 11:20 PM)Captain America That graph is great! No sarcasm! You guys don't have to prove yourself Jeemu, maybe that is what you don't understand... build one for meIt's nothing to do with sarcasm. Just that we would honestly like to see a super wide & high graph of an OM6xx engine. So far they have been either way, low-end tq or high hp.
I haven't said I wouldn't want more low end grunt, but if I have to choose between the two..
(12-09-2010, 11:20 PM)Captain America That graph is great! No sarcasm! You guys don't have to prove yourself Jeemu, maybe that is what you don't understand... build one for meIt's nothing to do with sarcasm. Just that we would honestly like to see a super wide & high graph of an OM6xx engine. So far they have been either way, low-end tq or high hp.
I haven't said I wouldn't want more low end grunt, but if I have to choose between the two..
12-10-2010, 04:59 PM
#22
(12-09-2010, 03:23 AM)muuris Graph 1, OM606, He351Ve, non-Mynä 7mm IP and auto tranny. The tq peak at 3200rpm is due to torque converter slip. Practically no smoke after 1,6bar boost (at tq peak).
Graph 2 Mynä 7mm IP and and manual tranny. Stock mechanical transfer pump. More boost and much more fueling.
After this I dynoed with Holley transfer pump, even more fueling and still didn't break 600Nm. Massive smoke. Haven't dynoed yet with current turbo, as I haven't been able to tune the settings on the road. It's been very slippery driving conditions for the past weeks. Loses traction every time it gets on boost.
Thanks for graphs.
After reading about your testing, my thoughts are that a vnt turbine is not a good choice for high end hp. The vane ring creates turbulence when partially open and the vanes do the same when fully open. The area where the exhaust gases speed up and hit the turbine wheel is very sensitive to any restriction that creates turbulence. So if hp is the goal, a VG turbine with its smooth flow would be better. A divided turbine housing is another important detail that the vnt does not have.
It looks like Jeemu was right when he wrote: (That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guys, not for who want real power
) Hopefully Holset or Garrett will develop a vnt race turbo. That would be great(except for the price). Maybe a bus designed turbo should be left on a bus?
(12-09-2010, 03:23 AM)muuris Graph 1, OM606, He351Ve, non-Mynä 7mm IP and auto tranny. The tq peak at 3200rpm is due to torque converter slip. Practically no smoke after 1,6bar boost (at tq peak).
Graph 2 Mynä 7mm IP and and manual tranny. Stock mechanical transfer pump. More boost and much more fueling.
After this I dynoed with Holley transfer pump, even more fueling and still didn't break 600Nm. Massive smoke. Haven't dynoed yet with current turbo, as I haven't been able to tune the settings on the road. It's been very slippery driving conditions for the past weeks. Loses traction every time it gets on boost.
Thanks for graphs.
After reading about your testing, my thoughts are that a vnt turbine is not a good choice for high end hp. The vane ring creates turbulence when partially open and the vanes do the same when fully open. The area where the exhaust gases speed up and hit the turbine wheel is very sensitive to any restriction that creates turbulence. So if hp is the goal, a VG turbine with its smooth flow would be better. A divided turbine housing is another important detail that the vnt does not have.
It looks like Jeemu was right when he wrote: (That is interesting. Those vgt turbos are daily drive use guys, not for who want real power
) Hopefully Holset or Garrett will develop a vnt race turbo. That would be great(except for the price). Maybe a bus designed turbo should be left on a bus?
12-10-2010, 06:18 PM
#23
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)winmutt In the previous post http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/om60...-1023.html I think the most relevant post was regarding motorcycles.
Inline 4 bangers can't make any low end torque to save their lives.
The V's make all low end torque, relatively flat lined.
I have owned both and the V's win every day in my book. The reason is that the low end torque is usable all the time. It provides better traction in the corners. The inlines don't make any torque until the RPM and HP is up, meaning that you are more likely to lose traction. Sure they can make it up in the straight ways, coming out of the corners but often the amount of braking going in to compensate for the loss of torque outweighs the power to weight ratio of the engine.
To me there is little point in an engine that doesn't produce decent torque until you are nearing the limits of the tires and suspension.
variable valve timing tames a crazy cam. dude I owned an s54 m roadster, there is no reason for v anything. the smoothness of the engine at high RPM was creepy. it was like the thing was singing
1983 light ivory/palomino 300d turbo
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)winmutt In the previous post http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/om60...-1023.html I think the most relevant post was regarding motorcycles.
Inline 4 bangers can't make any low end torque to save their lives.
The V's make all low end torque, relatively flat lined.
I have owned both and the V's win every day in my book. The reason is that the low end torque is usable all the time. It provides better traction in the corners. The inlines don't make any torque until the RPM and HP is up, meaning that you are more likely to lose traction. Sure they can make it up in the straight ways, coming out of the corners but often the amount of braking going in to compensate for the loss of torque outweighs the power to weight ratio of the engine.
To me there is little point in an engine that doesn't produce decent torque until you are nearing the limits of the tires and suspension.
variable valve timing tames a crazy cam. dude I owned an s54 m roadster, there is no reason for v anything. the smoothness of the engine at high RPM was creepy. it was like the thing was singing
1983 light ivory/palomino 300d turbo
12-11-2010, 09:30 AM
#24
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)300D50 Surely there's other places that are stateside that can do the same work for a similar price?Myna has large experience with these specific engines. Stateside companies only know of Cummins when it comes to injection pump modifications.
Quote:That and there's a mini monopoly situation that I'm seeingUm, thats the entire basis of capitalism. If they weren't good they wouldn't have a successful business that beats the competition.
ForcedInduction
12-11-2010, 09:30 AM
#24
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)300D50 Surely there's other places that are stateside that can do the same work for a similar price?Myna has large experience with these specific engines. Stateside companies only know of Cummins when it comes to injection pump modifications.
Quote:That and there's a mini monopoly situation that I'm seeingUm, thats the entire basis of capitalism. If they weren't good they wouldn't have a successful business that beats the competition.
12-13-2010, 07:33 PM
#25
I saw this statement in another tread: "And a dyno graph further emphasizes the point about horsepower's math-only base, EVERY engine has exactly the same horsepower and torque at 5252rpm!"
Most people with an interest for engines know that this is not correct, if there is anything that is "math-only base", it is the torque.
HP moves your car from A to B at the speed you want, not torque. Instead of discussing about high end hp vs low end torque, the argument should be about high end hp vs low end hp. So what is torque? a measurement of force. and why do we need to know it? many reasons but maybe most important is to know at what rpm the engine is most efficient and also to calculate the horsepower. TQ and HP are directly related. HP= RPM x torque / 5252
And why is it hp that moves your car from A to B at the speed you want? because there is a time factor here, miles/hr. Torque can move the car from A to B but it does not tell us anything about how long time it will take. For me(and almost everyone else) the time it takes is important. If you want to win a dragrace, it is the hp that can help you, not the torque since you win by driving 1/4 mile at the fastest time, not only by being able to drive the distance. So if there are anyone here that say something else, they don't understand TQ/HP or they have a strange sense of humor:o)
By the way, 5252 is the amount of feet that the end of a one foot arm travels in one second. It is a constant we use to calculate hp and automatically the tq and the hp curve will meet at this point.
This tread is about TQ vs HP.
I saw this statement in another tread: "And a dyno graph further emphasizes the point about horsepower's math-only base, EVERY engine has exactly the same horsepower and torque at 5252rpm!"
Most people with an interest for engines know that this is not correct, if there is anything that is "math-only base", it is the torque.
HP moves your car from A to B at the speed you want, not torque. Instead of discussing about high end hp vs low end torque, the argument should be about high end hp vs low end hp. So what is torque? a measurement of force. and why do we need to know it? many reasons but maybe most important is to know at what rpm the engine is most efficient and also to calculate the horsepower. TQ and HP are directly related. HP= RPM x torque / 5252
And why is it hp that moves your car from A to B at the speed you want? because there is a time factor here, miles/hr. Torque can move the car from A to B but it does not tell us anything about how long time it will take. For me(and almost everyone else) the time it takes is important. If you want to win a dragrace, it is the hp that can help you, not the torque since you win by driving 1/4 mile at the fastest time, not only by being able to drive the distance. So if there are anyone here that say something else, they don't understand TQ/HP or they have a strange sense of humor:o)
By the way, 5252 is the amount of feet that the end of a one foot arm travels in one second. It is a constant we use to calculate hp and automatically the tq and the hp curve will meet at this point.
01-12-2011, 06:52 PM
#26
Horses for courses.
Another, interesting, way to look at it is to consider HP@rpm (which is a function of torque and speed). You'll find something like a turbo diesel will give a higher hp than a racey petrol at LOW rpm, but up high typically the petrol generates more. So, at low/mid rpm the diesel has more hp and is quicker to drive on a daily basis. At high rpm the petrol has more torque, so when racing/driving flat it's quicker.
Personally I like to drive a vehicle that can make most of it's max hp at cruising rpm, so I have the power available without change down gear. So I like TD's.
Or VERY bit petrols. Or petrols with quick spooling turbos.
I like engines....
Greg.
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)winmutt In the previous post http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/om60...-1023.html I think the most relevant post was regarding motorcycles.
Inline 4 bangers can't make any low end torque to save their lives.
The V's make all low end torque, relatively flat lined.
I have owned both and the V's win every day in my book. The reason is that the low end torque is usable all the time. It provides better traction in the corners. The inlines don't make any torque until the RPM and HP is up, meaning that you are more likely to lose traction. Sure they can make it up in the straight ways, coming out of the corners but often the amount of braking going in to compensate for the loss of torque outweighs the power to weight ratio of the engine.
To me there is little point in an engine that doesn't produce decent torque until you are nearing the limits of the tires and suspension.
That's beacuse of how the engine is cammed up and the market it appeals to , nothing to do with the layout of the engine. Try a race ducati v (no low end torque) a bmw 4-pot (pulls like a train and low revving for a bike) and another reason the race reps are high rpm is for max power. It's for max performance, not max drivability. It's how nearly 20 years ago bikes like the ZZR11 got 175mph unmodified, and any sports you shake a stick at can get to 100mph in less time than an E55AMG takes to get to 60.
Horses for courses.
Another, interesting, way to look at it is to consider HP@rpm (which is a function of torque and speed). You'll find something like a turbo diesel will give a higher hp than a racey petrol at LOW rpm, but up high typically the petrol generates more. So, at low/mid rpm the diesel has more hp and is quicker to drive on a daily basis. At high rpm the petrol has more torque, so when racing/driving flat it's quicker.
Personally I like to drive a vehicle that can make most of it's max hp at cruising rpm, so I have the power available without change down gear. So I like TD's.
Or VERY bit petrols. Or petrols with quick spooling turbos.
I like engines....
Greg.
(12-08-2010, 04:25 PM)winmutt In the previous post http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/om60...-1023.html I think the most relevant post was regarding motorcycles.
Inline 4 bangers can't make any low end torque to save their lives.
The V's make all low end torque, relatively flat lined.
I have owned both and the V's win every day in my book. The reason is that the low end torque is usable all the time. It provides better traction in the corners. The inlines don't make any torque until the RPM and HP is up, meaning that you are more likely to lose traction. Sure they can make it up in the straight ways, coming out of the corners but often the amount of braking going in to compensate for the loss of torque outweighs the power to weight ratio of the engine.
To me there is little point in an engine that doesn't produce decent torque until you are nearing the limits of the tires and suspension.
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