Electronic IP's, what's needed to drive one?
Electronic IP's, what's needed to drive one?
12-06-2010, 03:12 AM
#1
I know some of the newer diesels use an ECU controlled variant of the bosch pumps, but I'm in the dark as to what's actualy different internally. Is it just a servo mechanisim with feedback hooked to the rack, with little else, or are the other subsystems like the t-cap, full load stop, etc still there?
Is there any documentation of the signals needed to drive them?
Is there one that would fit on a 617?
Has anyone even tried to reverse engineer the ECU firmware, or modify it?
Sorry for leaving a brain dropping, but if I didn't I'd be thinking about it till next March...
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
I've had this thought running round my head since saturday, so I had to eject it.
I know some of the newer diesels use an ECU controlled variant of the bosch pumps, but I'm in the dark as to what's actualy different internally. Is it just a servo mechanisim with feedback hooked to the rack, with little else, or are the other subsystems like the t-cap, full load stop, etc still there?
Is there any documentation of the signals needed to drive them?
Is there one that would fit on a 617?
Has anyone even tried to reverse engineer the ECU firmware, or modify it?
Sorry for leaving a brain dropping, but if I didn't I'd be thinking about it till next March...
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-06-2010, 04:43 AM
#2
There is no benefit to it in any way over the mechanical governor.
This post was last modified: 12-06-2010, 04:43 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
12-06-2010, 04:43 AM
#2
The only thing inside is a solenoid that pushes directly on the fuel rack and position sensor for feedback.
There is no benefit to it in any way over the mechanical governor.
12-06-2010, 09:27 AM
#3
(12-06-2010, 04:43 AM)ForcedInduction There is no benefit to it in any way over the mechanical governor.
Direct rack control instead of a rube goldbergs concoction of springs and weights? Anti jerk control?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(12-06-2010, 04:43 AM)ForcedInduction There is no benefit to it in any way over the mechanical governor.
Direct rack control instead of a rube goldbergs concoction of springs and weights? Anti jerk control?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
12-06-2010, 04:39 PM
#5
(12-06-2010, 09:27 AM)winmuttWhat kind of spring do you use for governing if you want full fueling until 5800rpm and no fueling at all at 6000? It would be very loooong and pre-tensioned, and would not fit in.(12-06-2010, 04:43 AM)ForcedInduction There is no benefit to it in any way over the mechanical governor.
Direct rack control instead of a rube goldbergs concoction of springs and weights? Anti jerk control?
Anti-jerk would be the other main benefit.
Third would be the ease of tuning the engine (nearly) smokeless compared to playing 1000+ hours with ALDA.
(12-06-2010, 09:27 AM)winmuttWhat kind of spring do you use for governing if you want full fueling until 5800rpm and no fueling at all at 6000? It would be very loooong and pre-tensioned, and would not fit in.(12-06-2010, 04:43 AM)ForcedInduction There is no benefit to it in any way over the mechanical governor.
Direct rack control instead of a rube goldbergs concoction of springs and weights? Anti jerk control?
Anti-jerk would be the other main benefit.
Third would be the ease of tuning the engine (nearly) smokeless compared to playing 1000+ hours with ALDA.
12-06-2010, 04:42 PM
#6
Will one of the 60x 5 cyl ones fit?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Hm, so the question is, can I get one of these devilish things that will fit a 617?
Will one of the 60x 5 cyl ones fit?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-06-2010, 06:16 PM
#7
yankneck696
12-06-2010, 06:16 PM #7There's a thread about this already. "electronic ip control" or close to that. Check it out & see how far it went.
12-06-2010, 06:19 PM
#8
(12-06-2010, 09:27 AM)winmutt Direct rack control instead of a rube goldbergs concoction of springs and weights?Whats complicated about a set of rods that has worked for 25+ years and never again requires adjustment once setup?
I spent all of 45 minutes adjusting my 300D's linkage when I installed the M-Pump and haven't touched it since.
Besides, in any case you'll still need mechanical linkage to control the transmission bowden cable and VCV. That means you'll have to rube goldberg a system to vary a vacuum signal to throttle position and the only thing you'd be really eliminating is the rod between the stop lever and the pump. (Obviously the manuals will be far more simple.)
Quote:Anti jerk control?My brain and right foot do that. My 240 used to do that all the time in 1st and 2nd gear when I first did the engine conversion. Once I learned under what conditions it occurs and how to compensate it hasn't happened since.
Its like this rear view camera "law" being proposed, spending $$$$ to solve a minor problem that can be solved just as easily (but far cheaper) with better drivers ed and stricter punishment for people that cause traffic related injuries.
Quote:What kind of spring do you use for governing if you want full fueling until 5800rpm and no fueling at all at 6000? It would be very loooong and pre-tensioned, and would not fit in.Thats the beauty of human ingenuity, design one!
I'd buy two.Quote:Will one of the 60x 5 cyl ones fit?Not without major machine work to the pump body so it will attach to the engine.
This post was last modified: 12-06-2010, 06:23 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
12-06-2010, 06:19 PM
#8
(12-06-2010, 09:27 AM)winmutt Direct rack control instead of a rube goldbergs concoction of springs and weights?Whats complicated about a set of rods that has worked for 25+ years and never again requires adjustment once setup?
I spent all of 45 minutes adjusting my 300D's linkage when I installed the M-Pump and haven't touched it since.
Besides, in any case you'll still need mechanical linkage to control the transmission bowden cable and VCV. That means you'll have to rube goldberg a system to vary a vacuum signal to throttle position and the only thing you'd be really eliminating is the rod between the stop lever and the pump. (Obviously the manuals will be far more simple.)
Quote:Anti jerk control?My brain and right foot do that. My 240 used to do that all the time in 1st and 2nd gear when I first did the engine conversion. Once I learned under what conditions it occurs and how to compensate it hasn't happened since.
Its like this rear view camera "law" being proposed, spending $$$$ to solve a minor problem that can be solved just as easily (but far cheaper) with better drivers ed and stricter punishment for people that cause traffic related injuries.
Quote:What kind of spring do you use for governing if you want full fueling until 5800rpm and no fueling at all at 6000? It would be very loooong and pre-tensioned, and would not fit in.Thats the beauty of human ingenuity, design one!
I'd buy two.Quote:Will one of the 60x 5 cyl ones fit?Not without major machine work to the pump body so it will attach to the engine.
12-06-2010, 06:27 PM
#9
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
12-06-2010, 06:27 PM #9Seems to me the more electronics you add the more things that can go wrong. And the harder they are to fix when they do. But that's only my opinion.
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
12-06-2010, 07:09 PM
#10
I must stop leaving brain turds in the forum, I must stop leaving brain turds in the forum, I must stop leaving brain turds in the forum...
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Doh, there wasn't a US spec 60X 5 cylinder, was there? :/
I must stop leaving brain turds in the forum, I must stop leaving brain turds in the forum, I must stop leaving brain turds in the forum...
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-06-2010, 09:36 PM
#11
(12-06-2010, 07:09 PM)300D50 Doh, there wasn't a US spec 60X 5 cylinder, was there? :/
190D 2.5 85-86 and 88-89, 190D 2.5T 87, 300D 2.5 91-93
ForcedInduction
12-06-2010, 09:36 PM
#11
(12-06-2010, 07:09 PM)300D50 Doh, there wasn't a US spec 60X 5 cylinder, was there? :/
190D 2.5 85-86 and 88-89, 190D 2.5T 87, 300D 2.5 91-93
12-06-2010, 09:37 PM
#12
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
12-06-2010, 09:37 PM #12yup NA, and Turbo its a om602.xxx
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
12-13-2010, 09:43 AM
#14
(12-12-2010, 10:20 AM)Einar Maybe you could use parts from a electronic 605-pump on a 617 M-pump to build a electronic 617 M-pump.
The block is completely different and the electronic governor will not mate.
ForcedInduction
12-13-2010, 09:43 AM
#14
(12-12-2010, 10:20 AM)Einar Maybe you could use parts from a electronic 605-pump on a 617 M-pump to build a electronic 617 M-pump.
The block is completely different and the electronic governor will not mate.
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