Basic OM606 (or OM648?) questions
Basic OM606 (or OM648?) questions
01-10-2011, 12:52 PM
#1
If I were to go with a manual transmission, I'd have to ditch the transmission electronics of course. When you unplug/remove the automatic transmission module, does the engine ECU care (by throwing a code or otherwise)?
I understand there is a speed sensor on the wheels with the 722.6 transmission, is that true? It's the 722.6 that is in the 98-99 E300Ds, right?
Related to all this, I understand the OM648 is the OM606 with CDI. That would be nice to have but I'm concerned about getting into a mess with the electronics. I don't mind moving modules and wiring harnesses at all, and I actually like the efficiency that electronic controls provide. I just don't want to get into issues with VIN-locked ECUs and such but am not positive this would be an issue. Is anyone able to shed light on that?
Feedback on any of this would be much appreciated! I'm looking for a wrecked car to purchase but want to avoid getting one and then hitting a brick wall of an issue halfway through the whole thing, so I'm in the unfortunate spot of not having a car in hand for reference.
Trying to get my hands on good info about a swap I'm planning. I've been looking at the OM606 (turbo) as the most likely candidate. This engine would go into a Toyota Land Cruiser, so obviously it's not plug-n-play.
If I were to go with a manual transmission, I'd have to ditch the transmission electronics of course. When you unplug/remove the automatic transmission module, does the engine ECU care (by throwing a code or otherwise)?
I understand there is a speed sensor on the wheels with the 722.6 transmission, is that true? It's the 722.6 that is in the 98-99 E300Ds, right?
Related to all this, I understand the OM648 is the OM606 with CDI. That would be nice to have but I'm concerned about getting into a mess with the electronics. I don't mind moving modules and wiring harnesses at all, and I actually like the efficiency that electronic controls provide. I just don't want to get into issues with VIN-locked ECUs and such but am not positive this would be an issue. Is anyone able to shed light on that?
Feedback on any of this would be much appreciated! I'm looking for a wrecked car to purchase but want to avoid getting one and then hitting a brick wall of an issue halfway through the whole thing, so I'm in the unfortunate spot of not having a car in hand for reference.
01-10-2011, 01:42 PM
#2
(01-10-2011, 12:52 PM)shane When you unplug/remove the automatic transmission module, does the engine ECU care (by throwing a code or otherwise)?Yes. The engine uses a CAN, so it expects to get inputs from the transmission and several body controllers.
Quote:Related to all this, I understand the OM648 is the OM606 with CDI.No. The CDI engines have nothing in common with earlier engines.
Your best option is to replace the OM606 electronic pump with a mechanical one. There isn't any benefit in trying to swap over electronics on that engine.
ForcedInduction
01-10-2011, 01:42 PM
#2
(01-10-2011, 12:52 PM)shane When you unplug/remove the automatic transmission module, does the engine ECU care (by throwing a code or otherwise)?Yes. The engine uses a CAN, so it expects to get inputs from the transmission and several body controllers.
Quote:Related to all this, I understand the OM648 is the OM606 with CDI.No. The CDI engines have nothing in common with earlier engines.
Your best option is to replace the OM606 electronic pump with a mechanical one. There isn't any benefit in trying to swap over electronics on that engine.
01-10-2011, 01:58 PM
#3
(01-10-2011, 01:42 PM)ForcedInduction(01-10-2011, 12:52 PM)shane When you unplug/remove the automatic transmission module, does the engine ECU care (by throwing a code or otherwise)?Yes. The engine uses a CAN, so it expects to get inputs from the transmission and several body controllers.
Thanks, I was afraid of that. What are the body controllers?
Quote:Quote:Related to all this, I understand the OM648 is the OM606 with CDI.No. The CDI engines have nothing in common with earlier engines.
OK -- I had thought that there was a CDI I6 that was similar to the OM606. I know the V6s are completely different.
Quote:Your best option is to replace the OM606 electronic pump with a mechanical one. There isn't any benefit in trying to swap over electronics on that engine.
Not even an MPG benefit?
(01-10-2011, 01:42 PM)ForcedInduction(01-10-2011, 12:52 PM)shane When you unplug/remove the automatic transmission module, does the engine ECU care (by throwing a code or otherwise)?Yes. The engine uses a CAN, so it expects to get inputs from the transmission and several body controllers.
Thanks, I was afraid of that. What are the body controllers?
Quote:Quote:Related to all this, I understand the OM648 is the OM606 with CDI.No. The CDI engines have nothing in common with earlier engines.
OK -- I had thought that there was a CDI I6 that was similar to the OM606. I know the V6s are completely different.
Quote:Your best option is to replace the OM606 electronic pump with a mechanical one. There isn't any benefit in trying to swap over electronics on that engine.
Not even an MPG benefit?
01-10-2011, 02:12 PM
#4
(01-10-2011, 01:58 PM)shane Thanks, I was afraid of that. What are the body controllers?Instrument cluster, pedal inputs and security, just that I can recall off my head.
Quote:OK -- I had thought that there was a CDI I6 that was similar to the OM606. I know the V6s are completely different.The I-6 layout is the only thing they have in common.
Quote:Not even an MPG benefit?The electronic pump does nothing the mechanical governor can't. The only reasons MB used one is for OBDII compliance and tighter emissions controls.
ForcedInduction
01-10-2011, 02:12 PM
#4
(01-10-2011, 01:58 PM)shane Thanks, I was afraid of that. What are the body controllers?Instrument cluster, pedal inputs and security, just that I can recall off my head.
Quote:OK -- I had thought that there was a CDI I6 that was similar to the OM606. I know the V6s are completely different.The I-6 layout is the only thing they have in common.
Quote:Not even an MPG benefit?The electronic pump does nothing the mechanical governor can't. The only reasons MB used one is for OBDII compliance and tighter emissions controls.
01-10-2011, 05:45 PM
#5
(01-10-2011, 02:12 PM)ForcedInduction(01-10-2011, 01:58 PM)shane Thanks, I was afraid of that. What are the body controllers?Instrument cluster, pedal inputs and security, just that I can recall off my head.
Then I would need to figure out if my local smog inspector will go for a mechanical IP with the swap. Maybe the inspector will go for it if I call it a 603, which might still fit the requirements. What they want to see is an engine same year or newer than the car, in the same weight class as the car, with the stock smog equipment the engine came with -- they want to see you're not creating a dirtier vehicle than it was originally. That's one reason I'm interested in the electronics.
Let me ask this: if I were to swap all the wiring/etc over -- yes, including dash, pedals and key switch -- am I missing anything in thinking that this would allow everything to work correctly? The only thing I can think of that might throw it off is if the ECU cares about vehicle speed -- in which case it would be off because the tire size will be significantly different than the Mercedes.
(01-10-2011, 02:12 PM)ForcedInduction(01-10-2011, 01:58 PM)shane Thanks, I was afraid of that. What are the body controllers?Instrument cluster, pedal inputs and security, just that I can recall off my head.
Then I would need to figure out if my local smog inspector will go for a mechanical IP with the swap. Maybe the inspector will go for it if I call it a 603, which might still fit the requirements. What they want to see is an engine same year or newer than the car, in the same weight class as the car, with the stock smog equipment the engine came with -- they want to see you're not creating a dirtier vehicle than it was originally. That's one reason I'm interested in the electronics.
Let me ask this: if I were to swap all the wiring/etc over -- yes, including dash, pedals and key switch -- am I missing anything in thinking that this would allow everything to work correctly? The only thing I can think of that might throw it off is if the ECU cares about vehicle speed -- in which case it would be off because the tire size will be significantly different than the Mercedes.
01-10-2011, 07:11 PM
#6
(01-10-2011, 05:45 PM)shane Let me ask this: if I were to swap all the wiring/etc over -- yes, including dash, pedals and key switch -- am I missing anything in thinking that this would allow everything to work correctly? The only thing I can think of that might throw it off is if the ECU cares about vehicle speed -- in which case it would be off because the tire size will be significantly different than the Mercedes.
I just took out a om606 and tran from a w210 e300 and thought that maybe I could just take out all the electronics for the engine and put everything in a W124 and the electronic IP would work? I took out all the cables and electronic boxes from the car. But you can not separate engine and ECU cables from the rest, everything is connected!!!! and I mean everything, I couldn't even separate the lightening cables from the rest. So unless you are a car electrician, forget it. Go for a mechanical IP
(01-10-2011, 05:45 PM)shane Let me ask this: if I were to swap all the wiring/etc over -- yes, including dash, pedals and key switch -- am I missing anything in thinking that this would allow everything to work correctly? The only thing I can think of that might throw it off is if the ECU cares about vehicle speed -- in which case it would be off because the tire size will be significantly different than the Mercedes.
I just took out a om606 and tran from a w210 e300 and thought that maybe I could just take out all the electronics for the engine and put everything in a W124 and the electronic IP would work? I took out all the cables and electronic boxes from the car. But you can not separate engine and ECU cables from the rest, everything is connected!!!! and I mean everything, I couldn't even separate the lightening cables from the rest. So unless you are a car electrician, forget it. Go for a mechanical IP
01-10-2011, 08:02 PM
#7
Call the OM606 a "95" (no OBDII), use an OM603 mechanical pump and swap over the 6mm pump elements from the 606 pump. Find an emissions sticker from a 95 and make the engine 95 compliant - basically EGR I think is all they had.
Or, use the OM606 with the electronic pump and get with some of the guys on here that have developed a standalone controller for the engine.
The first option I believe, is the most attractive one.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
The 210 is a crap storm of wiring and computers. I would totally forget trying to make a meaningful swap of it. I would do one of the following:
Call the OM606 a "95" (no OBDII), use an OM603 mechanical pump and swap over the 6mm pump elements from the 606 pump. Find an emissions sticker from a 95 and make the engine 95 compliant - basically EGR I think is all they had.
Or, use the OM606 with the electronic pump and get with some of the guys on here that have developed a standalone controller for the engine.
The first option I believe, is the most attractive one.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
01-11-2011, 02:24 PM
#8
(01-10-2011, 07:11 PM)erling66 I just took out a om606 and tran from a w210 e300 and thought that maybe I could just take out all the electronics for the engine and put everything in a W124 and the electronic IP would work? I took out all the cables and electronic boxes from the car. But you can not separate engine and ECU cables from the rest, everything is connected!!!! and I mean everything, I couldn't even separate the lightening cables from the rest. So unless you are a car electrician, forget it. Go for a mechanical IP
That's aggravating. I guess they don't make it easy. I don't suppose there's any way to leave it all connected? I know it's all plugged into the dash panel, the DAS and all that.
(01-10-2011, 08:02 PM)E300TSC The 210 is a crap storm of wiring and computers. I would totally forget trying to make a meaningful swap of it. I would do one of the following:
Call the OM606 a "95" (no OBDII), use an OM603 mechanical pump and swap over the 6mm pump elements from the 606 pump. Find an emissions sticker from a 95 and make the engine 95 compliant - basically EGR I think is all they had.
Or, use the OM606 with the electronic pump and get with some of the guys on here that have developed a standalone controller for the engine.
I may have to do the mechanical pump. The standalone controller might be nice to try but I'm sure the smog folks won't go for it, so that would have to wait until after the inspection. Is there anyone who's figured it out besides "dervtuning" who seems to have gone MIA for a few months now?
Also figured out last night that all the electronics, even in the 98-99, are VIN-locked too, though there does appear to be a way to disable that.
(01-10-2011, 07:11 PM)erling66 I just took out a om606 and tran from a w210 e300 and thought that maybe I could just take out all the electronics for the engine and put everything in a W124 and the electronic IP would work? I took out all the cables and electronic boxes from the car. But you can not separate engine and ECU cables from the rest, everything is connected!!!! and I mean everything, I couldn't even separate the lightening cables from the rest. So unless you are a car electrician, forget it. Go for a mechanical IP
That's aggravating. I guess they don't make it easy. I don't suppose there's any way to leave it all connected? I know it's all plugged into the dash panel, the DAS and all that.
(01-10-2011, 08:02 PM)E300TSC The 210 is a crap storm of wiring and computers. I would totally forget trying to make a meaningful swap of it. I would do one of the following:
Call the OM606 a "95" (no OBDII), use an OM603 mechanical pump and swap over the 6mm pump elements from the 606 pump. Find an emissions sticker from a 95 and make the engine 95 compliant - basically EGR I think is all they had.
Or, use the OM606 with the electronic pump and get with some of the guys on here that have developed a standalone controller for the engine.
I may have to do the mechanical pump. The standalone controller might be nice to try but I'm sure the smog folks won't go for it, so that would have to wait until after the inspection. Is there anyone who's figured it out besides "dervtuning" who seems to have gone MIA for a few months now?
Also figured out last night that all the electronics, even in the 98-99, are VIN-locked too, though there does appear to be a way to disable that.
01-11-2011, 08:31 PM
#9
Greg.
Quote:Your best option is to replace the OM606 electronic pump with a mechanical one. There isn't any benefit in trying to swap over electronics on that engine.
Not even an MPG benefit?
[/quote]
What about electronic cruise control? And gearbox cutting engine for smooth upshifts and blipping it on downshifts? Perhaps not a massive relation to this swap, but surely some reasons if one was to keep all the merc electronics?
Greg.
Quote:Your best option is to replace the OM606 electronic pump with a mechanical one. There isn't any benefit in trying to swap over electronics on that engine.
Not even an MPG benefit?
[/quote]
01-12-2011, 02:57 PM
#10
(01-11-2011, 08:31 PM)greg123 What about electronic cruise control? And gearbox cutting engine for smooth upshifts and blipping it on downshifts? Perhaps not a massive relation to this swap, but surely some reasons if one was to keep all the merc electronics?
True, wouldn't hurt to have those.
One aspect that makes the prospect of this slightly simpler is that the Land Cruiser has no electronics that I'm intent on keeping. There's a basic ECU that will go out with the old engine, and everything else is mechanical and/or basic two-wire switch stuff. So at least I don't have to merge two systems, that would make it pretty much impossible.
Defeating the VIN lock in the Drive Authorization System appears doable, so my current concern is the air bag (and similar things I'm not thinking of) that would be difficult to move but probably cause the computer to have a fit if I unplugged.
(01-11-2011, 08:31 PM)greg123 What about electronic cruise control? And gearbox cutting engine for smooth upshifts and blipping it on downshifts? Perhaps not a massive relation to this swap, but surely some reasons if one was to keep all the merc electronics?
True, wouldn't hurt to have those.
One aspect that makes the prospect of this slightly simpler is that the Land Cruiser has no electronics that I'm intent on keeping. There's a basic ECU that will go out with the old engine, and everything else is mechanical and/or basic two-wire switch stuff. So at least I don't have to merge two systems, that would make it pretty much impossible.
Defeating the VIN lock in the Drive Authorization System appears doable, so my current concern is the air bag (and similar things I'm not thinking of) that would be difficult to move but probably cause the computer to have a fit if I unplugged.
01-12-2011, 05:18 PM
#11
(01-12-2011, 02:57 PM)shane(01-11-2011, 08:31 PM)greg123 What about electronic cruise control? And gearbox cutting engine for smooth upshifts and blipping it on downshifts? Perhaps not a massive relation to this swap, but surely some reasons if one was to keep all the merc electronics?
True, wouldn't hurt to have those.
One aspect that makes the prospect of this slightly simpler is that the Land Cruiser has no electronics that I'm intent on keeping. There's a basic ECU that will go out with the old engine, and everything else is mechanical and/or basic two-wire switch stuff. So at least I don't have to merge two systems, that would make it pretty much impossible.
Defeating the VIN lock in the Drive Authorization System appears doable, so my current concern is the air bag (and similar things I'm not thinking of) that would be difficult to move but probably cause the computer to have a fit if I unplugged.
I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU. I am only startring to research it and probably need to buy the wiring diagrams but it must be doable. I mean at the end of the day it's only wiring
I've bought a complete 99 E300 TD as a donor so I will have everything there in front of me to be able to pick apart the wiring. If I do start to make some progress in figuring out the management system connections I will post on here.
Can anyone recommend a good source for the wiring diagrams for this car (i.e. free on the internet somewhere
)(01-12-2011, 02:57 PM)shane(01-11-2011, 08:31 PM)greg123 What about electronic cruise control? And gearbox cutting engine for smooth upshifts and blipping it on downshifts? Perhaps not a massive relation to this swap, but surely some reasons if one was to keep all the merc electronics?
True, wouldn't hurt to have those.
One aspect that makes the prospect of this slightly simpler is that the Land Cruiser has no electronics that I'm intent on keeping. There's a basic ECU that will go out with the old engine, and everything else is mechanical and/or basic two-wire switch stuff. So at least I don't have to merge two systems, that would make it pretty much impossible.
Defeating the VIN lock in the Drive Authorization System appears doable, so my current concern is the air bag (and similar things I'm not thinking of) that would be difficult to move but probably cause the computer to have a fit if I unplugged.
I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU. I am only startring to research it and probably need to buy the wiring diagrams but it must be doable. I mean at the end of the day it's only wiring
I've bought a complete 99 E300 TD as a donor so I will have everything there in front of me to be able to pick apart the wiring. If I do start to make some progress in figuring out the management system connections I will post on here.
Can anyone recommend a good source for the wiring diagrams for this car (i.e. free on the internet somewhere
)
01-12-2011, 05:47 PM
#12
I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU.........
[/quote]
There's a massive ammount of work and head balding figuring out to be done with that project.....do-able but stress-able
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
01-12-2011, 05:47 PM #12[/quote]
I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU.........
[/quote]
There's a massive ammount of work and head balding figuring out to be done with that project.....do-able but stress-able
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
01-12-2011, 06:15 PM
#13
Greg.
(01-12-2011, 02:57 PM)shane True, wouldn't hurt to have those.
One aspect that makes the prospect of this slightly simpler is that the Land Cruiser has no electronics that I'm intent on keeping. There's a basic ECU that will go out with the old engine, and everything else is mechanical and/or basic two-wire switch stuff. So at least I don't have to merge two systems, that would make it pretty much impossible.
Defeating the VIN lock in the Drive Authorization System appears doable, so my current concern is the air bag (and similar things I'm not thinking of) that would be difficult to move but probably cause the computer to have a fit if I unplugged.
Very interesting, I have a s1 1969 XJ6 SWB and initially wanted to put a built US V8 in it. Recent years I fancied a big diesel and mwm's 4.2 straight 6 would be fantastic (think merc engines are good - that bad boy is amazing - stock internals 550hp with fueling/turbo, bolts to GM auto boxes, used in Brazil in GM trucks, simple design similar to a 200tdi land rover and very economic di 2-valve engine with a bosch pump) but getting one here is hard. I know of one for sale in Europe, for a few thousand....
So maybe a Merc engine may be the way to go.
Greg.
I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU.........
[/quote]
This post was last modified: 01-12-2011, 06:18 PM by greg123.
Sounds like it will suit you well. I think you'll find airbags and instruments etc are normally stand alone, most vehicles you can leave the airbags in just fine and keep the safety. Immobliser and instrument interface with engine ecu is harder on canbus cars but on older cars often it's just a case of wiring up some sensors.
Greg.
(01-12-2011, 02:57 PM)shane True, wouldn't hurt to have those.
One aspect that makes the prospect of this slightly simpler is that the Land Cruiser has no electronics that I'm intent on keeping. There's a basic ECU that will go out with the old engine, and everything else is mechanical and/or basic two-wire switch stuff. So at least I don't have to merge two systems, that would make it pretty much impossible.
Defeating the VIN lock in the Drive Authorization System appears doable, so my current concern is the air bag (and similar things I'm not thinking of) that would be difficult to move but probably cause the computer to have a fit if I unplugged.
Very interesting, I have a s1 1969 XJ6 SWB and initially wanted to put a built US V8 in it. Recent years I fancied a big diesel and mwm's 4.2 straight 6 would be fantastic (think merc engines are good - that bad boy is amazing - stock internals 550hp with fueling/turbo, bolts to GM auto boxes, used in Brazil in GM trucks, simple design similar to a 200tdi land rover and very economic di 2-valve engine with a bosch pump) but getting one here is hard. I know of one for sale in Europe, for a few thousand....
So maybe a Merc engine may be the way to go.
Greg.
I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU.........
[/quote]
01-12-2011, 06:30 PM
#14
(01-12-2011, 05:18 PM)gn3dr I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU. I am only startring to research it and probably need to buy the wiring diagrams but it must be doable. I mean at the end of the day it's only wiring
I've bought a complete 99 E300 TD as a donor so I will have everything there in front of me to be able to pick apart the wiring. If I do start to make some progress in figuring out the management system connections I will post on here.
Can anyone recommend a good source for the wiring diagrams for this car (i.e. free on the internet somewhere
I hope you will succeed and tell us about it
As you can see from my previous post, I gave up(I am a mechanic, not an electrician)
I heard that someone in Germany can rebuild the ECU to make it programmable but it is not cheap.
You can download the Mercedes Benz WIS ASRA if you have a torrent program or buy a copy on Ebay. There you find the wiring diagram(and lots of other stuff too)
(01-12-2011, 05:18 PM)gn3dr I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU. I am only startring to research it and probably need to buy the wiring diagrams but it must be doable. I mean at the end of the day it's only wiring
I've bought a complete 99 E300 TD as a donor so I will have everything there in front of me to be able to pick apart the wiring. If I do start to make some progress in figuring out the management system connections I will post on here.
Can anyone recommend a good source for the wiring diagrams for this car (i.e. free on the internet somewhere
I hope you will succeed and tell us about it
As you can see from my previous post, I gave up(I am a mechanic, not an electrician)
I heard that someone in Germany can rebuild the ECU to make it programmable but it is not cheap.
You can download the Mercedes Benz WIS ASRA if you have a torrent program or buy a copy on Ebay. There you find the wiring diagram(and lots of other stuff too)
01-12-2011, 11:13 PM
#15
(01-12-2011, 06:15 PM)greg123 Sounds like it will suit you well. I think you'll find airbags and instruments etc are normally stand alone, most vehicles you can leave the airbags in just fine and keep the safety.
I would hope so, but have been afraid that those too are connected to the CANBUS. I do know that current recent models have an airbag controller, which on any sign of trouble will tattle to the ECU and cause a DTC.
But the problem is that I don't yet have a car in front of me, so I don't necessarily know if this is something that was present in the 98-99 year or was introduced later.
I think the instrument cluster is connected to the CANBUS though in the 98-99 models, right? Heck, I don't know that definitively either though.
(01-12-2011, 05:18 PM)gn3dr I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU. I am only startring to research it and probably need to buy the wiring diagrams but it must be doable. I mean at the end of the day it's only wiring
Cool, that would be a really interesting swap. You're ahead of me in the respect that you've got a donor car! My present lack of one makes me a little blind on these things. Your swap is also somewhat similar in that I imagine your Jag's existing wiring/electronics are pretty basic.
Please do share things as you find them or figure them out and I will do the same. I'm especially wondering what all is hooked up to that CANBUS. Yeah, it is all wiring, but the interoperation of everything on the CANBUS makes it an entirely different situation because several models expect to be talking to each other.
I figure my first task, after I get at the wiring and see what's all in there, is to try disconnecting various things and testing if the ECU still works, still starts the engine and doesn't throw any errors. That will tell me if I have more problems to solve besides the Drive Authorization System.
(01-12-2011, 05:18 PM)gn3dr Can anyone recommend a good source for the wiring diagrams for this car (i.e. free on the internet somewhere
Ask your local library if they subscribe to the EBSCO databases, and if one of those is the EBSCO ARRC (Auto Repair Reference Center). They may also be able to provide a user/pass for online access at http://search.ebscohost.com/
This post was last modified: 01-12-2011, 11:56 PM by shane.
(01-12-2011, 06:15 PM)greg123 Sounds like it will suit you well. I think you'll find airbags and instruments etc are normally stand alone, most vehicles you can leave the airbags in just fine and keep the safety.
I would hope so, but have been afraid that those too are connected to the CANBUS. I do know that current recent models have an airbag controller, which on any sign of trouble will tattle to the ECU and cause a DTC.
But the problem is that I don't yet have a car in front of me, so I don't necessarily know if this is something that was present in the 98-99 year or was introduced later.
I think the instrument cluster is connected to the CANBUS though in the 98-99 models, right? Heck, I don't know that definitively either though.
(01-12-2011, 05:18 PM)gn3dr I'm planning on something similar myself but I'm putting an OM606 into a 1979 Jaguar. Haven't started yet but I am planning to keep the electronic pump and ECU. I am only startring to research it and probably need to buy the wiring diagrams but it must be doable. I mean at the end of the day it's only wiring
Cool, that would be a really interesting swap. You're ahead of me in the respect that you've got a donor car! My present lack of one makes me a little blind on these things. Your swap is also somewhat similar in that I imagine your Jag's existing wiring/electronics are pretty basic.
Please do share things as you find them or figure them out and I will do the same. I'm especially wondering what all is hooked up to that CANBUS. Yeah, it is all wiring, but the interoperation of everything on the CANBUS makes it an entirely different situation because several models expect to be talking to each other.
I figure my first task, after I get at the wiring and see what's all in there, is to try disconnecting various things and testing if the ECU still works, still starts the engine and doesn't throw any errors. That will tell me if I have more problems to solve besides the Drive Authorization System.
(01-12-2011, 05:18 PM)gn3dr Can anyone recommend a good source for the wiring diagrams for this car (i.e. free on the internet somewhere
Ask your local library if they subscribe to the EBSCO databases, and if one of those is the EBSCO ARRC (Auto Repair Reference Center). They may also be able to provide a user/pass for online access at http://search.ebscohost.com/
01-13-2011, 06:51 AM
#16
The electronic pump is just a mechanical pump with an actuator that moves in response to a throttle position sensor. The ECU also mimmicks the action of the ALDA by waiting for sufficient boost before allowing fueling. The ECU doesn't exert direct control on each injection event like the HUEI or CR engines.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
Reading through this again, I'm wondering if they emissions guy think that the electronic version of the pump is somehow "cleaner" than the mechanical version.
The electronic pump is just a mechanical pump with an actuator that moves in response to a throttle position sensor. The ECU also mimmicks the action of the ALDA by waiting for sufficient boost before allowing fueling. The ECU doesn't exert direct control on each injection event like the HUEI or CR engines.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
01-13-2011, 04:36 PM
#17
(01-13-2011, 06:51 AM)E300TSC Reading through this again, I'm wondering if they emissions guy think that the electronic version of the pump is somehow "cleaner" than the mechanical version.
Not necessarily, but to avoid confusion, they want to see that an engine from 1999 has all the stock equipment from 1999. Knowing that, and checking for fault codes, they can be reasonably sure the engine will continue to operate within the requirements from when it was made. I haven't yet discussed it with them and I may be able to get them to approve a 1999 engine with a 1995 injection pump so long as I can document that the engine is equipped exactly as a 1995 engine would be.
(Edit: You may then be asking, why not just use the 95 OM603? Because I'd like to avoid the problems I understand the OM603 had, and I want the extra power the 4v head + turbo provides. I'm asking this engine to move a 4200-lb truck.)
(01-13-2011, 06:51 AM)E300TSC The electronic pump is just a mechanical pump with an actuator that moves in response to a throttle position sensor. The ECU also mimmicks the action of the ALDA by waiting for sufficient boost before allowing fueling. The ECU doesn't exert direct control on each injection event like the HUEI or CR engines.
So you're saying that it isn't any more precise than the mechanical version? I guess I assumed it was -- with many other engines that's true, but I should know by now that Mercedes builds things their own way.
I had looked up the MPG for a 1995 vs. 1999 E300D and the latter is rated for 3 mpg more. Not a huge difference but not insignificant either, over the course of its life. The difference could also be due to the 4-valve head in the 1999 version.
This post was last modified: 01-13-2011, 05:22 PM by shane.
(01-13-2011, 06:51 AM)E300TSC Reading through this again, I'm wondering if they emissions guy think that the electronic version of the pump is somehow "cleaner" than the mechanical version.
Not necessarily, but to avoid confusion, they want to see that an engine from 1999 has all the stock equipment from 1999. Knowing that, and checking for fault codes, they can be reasonably sure the engine will continue to operate within the requirements from when it was made. I haven't yet discussed it with them and I may be able to get them to approve a 1999 engine with a 1995 injection pump so long as I can document that the engine is equipped exactly as a 1995 engine would be.
(Edit: You may then be asking, why not just use the 95 OM603? Because I'd like to avoid the problems I understand the OM603 had, and I want the extra power the 4v head + turbo provides. I'm asking this engine to move a 4200-lb truck.)
(01-13-2011, 06:51 AM)E300TSC The electronic pump is just a mechanical pump with an actuator that moves in response to a throttle position sensor. The ECU also mimmicks the action of the ALDA by waiting for sufficient boost before allowing fueling. The ECU doesn't exert direct control on each injection event like the HUEI or CR engines.
So you're saying that it isn't any more precise than the mechanical version? I guess I assumed it was -- with many other engines that's true, but I should know by now that Mercedes builds things their own way.
I had looked up the MPG for a 1995 vs. 1999 E300D and the latter is rated for 3 mpg more. Not a huge difference but not insignificant either, over the course of its life. The difference could also be due to the 4-valve head in the 1999 version.
01-13-2011, 06:32 PM
#18
(01-13-2011, 04:36 PM)shane(01-13-2011, 06:51 AM)E300TSC Reading through this again, I'm wondering if they emissions guy think that the electronic version of the pump is somehow "cleaner" than the mechanical version.(Edit: You may then be asking, why not just use the 95 OM603? Because I'd like to avoid the problems I understand the OM603 had, and I want the extra power the 4v head + turbo provides. I'm asking this engine to move a 4200-lb truck.)
There is no 95 om603. The 95 is a mechanical om606.
(01-13-2011, 04:36 PM)shane(01-13-2011, 06:51 AM)E300TSC Reading through this again, I'm wondering if they emissions guy think that the electronic version of the pump is somehow "cleaner" than the mechanical version.(Edit: You may then be asking, why not just use the 95 OM603? Because I'd like to avoid the problems I understand the OM603 had, and I want the extra power the 4v head + turbo provides. I'm asking this engine to move a 4200-lb truck.)
There is no 95 om603. The 95 is a mechanical om606.
01-13-2011, 06:36 PM
#19
(01-13-2011, 06:32 PM)aaa There is no 95 om603. The 95 is a mechanical om606.
Yeah, was just figuring that out. So it's the 94 om603 that I was talking about, the 95-97 om606 isn't good for me because it doesn't have a turbe and as I understand it doesn't hold up to a turbo.
01-13-2011, 07:03 PM
#21
(01-13-2011, 06:58 PM)greg123 Can't you just get it to pass a smoke test for the annual test (mot here) as unless you overfuel, whatever sort you get should pass current test regs and then use that as evidents your 'who knows what it is' motor is clean enough?
Yeah, but the key is getting the swap approved. If I just go down to the local smog inspection station and they see that the VIN indicates a gasoline engine but there's a diesel in it, they'll definitely just send me out the door. Once the swap is inspected, that gets it titled as diesel and it's just smog tests from that point forward.
(01-13-2011, 06:58 PM)greg123 Can't you just get it to pass a smoke test for the annual test (mot here) as unless you overfuel, whatever sort you get should pass current test regs and then use that as evidents your 'who knows what it is' motor is clean enough?
Yeah, but the key is getting the swap approved. If I just go down to the local smog inspection station and they see that the VIN indicates a gasoline engine but there's a diesel in it, they'll definitely just send me out the door. Once the swap is inspected, that gets it titled as diesel and it's just smog tests from that point forward.
01-13-2011, 08:02 PM
#22
What year is the Toyo?
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
So, do they have a record of the specs for every engine from every year? My idea is to use the 98-99 engine/block/manifolds with a 95 pump and call it a 95. Then, it's pre-OBDII so no codes. How do they know what year the engine is? The only thing I can think of is that they look up the date code on the block. Then again, it could be a rebuild and have no date code or an incorrect one. (Just thinking out loud).
What year is the Toyo?
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
01-14-2011, 10:03 PM
#23
(01-13-2011, 08:02 PM)E300TSC So, do they have a record of the specs for every engine from every year? My idea is to use the 98-99 engine/block/manifolds with a 95 pump and call it a 95. Then, it's pre-OBDII so no codes. How do they know what year the engine is? The only thing I can think of is that they look up the date code on the block. Then again, it could be a rebuild and have no date code or an incorrect one. (Just thinking out loud).
They might, I don't know. Ideally they'd like to see a receipt and VIN number from the donor car. I could buy a junker 95 engine from a yard somewhere and use the VIN from that. I looked up the wiring diagrams for the 95 though. The ISC control module (hooked to several other things) and EGR control module look important. I can't tell how easy those modules and wiring would be to transplant onto a 99.
(01-13-2011, 08:02 PM)E300TSC What year is the Toyo?
1991.
(01-13-2011, 08:02 PM)E300TSC So, do they have a record of the specs for every engine from every year? My idea is to use the 98-99 engine/block/manifolds with a 95 pump and call it a 95. Then, it's pre-OBDII so no codes. How do they know what year the engine is? The only thing I can think of is that they look up the date code on the block. Then again, it could be a rebuild and have no date code or an incorrect one. (Just thinking out loud).
They might, I don't know. Ideally they'd like to see a receipt and VIN number from the donor car. I could buy a junker 95 engine from a yard somewhere and use the VIN from that. I looked up the wiring diagrams for the 95 though. The ISC control module (hooked to several other things) and EGR control module look important. I can't tell how easy those modules and wiring would be to transplant onto a 99.
(01-13-2011, 08:02 PM)E300TSC What year is the Toyo?
1991.
02-03-2011, 12:15 PM
#24
both engines have:
4 cylinder
Displacement 3.0L , stock 125hp, 300NM torque (european version)
swirl chamber and Denso distributor pump (a Bosch copy)
cast iron block, aluminum head, 2 valves per cylinder, 2 balancer shafts
the australian versions had a stock intercooler with which you get approximately 140-150hp and 340NM torque
1KZ-T is a mechanical pump
1KZ-TE is an eletronically controlled pump, but no CAN Bus or anything
as much as i can remember the engine was produced from ~1987 until 2001
Gruß Volker
As it is a Landcruiser, did you think of using a Toyota 1KZ-T or 1KZ-TE engine from the prado? This would make the swap much easier (if that is desired)
both engines have:
4 cylinder
Displacement 3.0L , stock 125hp, 300NM torque (european version)
swirl chamber and Denso distributor pump (a Bosch copy)
cast iron block, aluminum head, 2 valves per cylinder, 2 balancer shafts
the australian versions had a stock intercooler with which you get approximately 140-150hp and 340NM torque
1KZ-T is a mechanical pump
1KZ-TE is an eletronically controlled pump, but no CAN Bus or anything
as much as i can remember the engine was produced from ~1987 until 2001
Gruß Volker
02-03-2011, 01:46 PM
#25
(02-03-2011, 12:15 PM)Volker407 As it is a Landcruiser, did you think of using a Toyota 1KZ-T or 1KZ-TE engine from the prado? This would make the swap much easier (if that is desired)
Sure wouldn't mind a 1KZ-TE, I've researched those (also used in the venerable Hi-Lux I understand). But like many diesels, they were never sold in the US -- partly because of emissions regulations (which I won't complain about) and partly because US car buyers don't really understand diesels. Unless it's in a big truck, the diesel-powered cars we have here are almost always far outsold by the gasoline versions, so I think car makers don't have a big incentive to bring diesels to market here.
(02-03-2011, 12:15 PM)Volker407 As it is a Landcruiser, did you think of using a Toyota 1KZ-T or 1KZ-TE engine from the prado? This would make the swap much easier (if that is desired)
Sure wouldn't mind a 1KZ-TE, I've researched those (also used in the venerable Hi-Lux I understand). But like many diesels, they were never sold in the US -- partly because of emissions regulations (which I won't complain about) and partly because US car buyers don't really understand diesels. Unless it's in a big truck, the diesel-powered cars we have here are almost always far outsold by the gasoline versions, so I think car makers don't have a big incentive to bring diesels to market here.
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