OM616 v OM617
OM616 v OM617
DieselSchlepper
01-29-2011, 09:08 PM #1Are these engines similar internally other than piston oil spray and different pistons in the 617?
DieselSchlepper
01-30-2011, 06:02 AM #4So then, the 616 will easily handle similar boost, with the piston skirt oiling done?
Ed
yankneck696
01-30-2011, 06:43 AM #5I believe you will find a nitrided crank & higher capacity oil pump, too.
Ed
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
Valves are different- turbo ones can handle higher heat. Please be a guinea pig and tell us via direct experience what you find.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
yankneck696
01-30-2011, 12:10 PM #76-8 PSI seems to be the point safety. More than that & UPGRADES !!!
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
01-30-2011, 02:20 PM #8It should be able to take more boost, once installing oil spray, and installing a good oil cooler. Just make sure it runs cool, and you should have not much problems.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
(01-30-2011, 02:24 PM)josha37 lol, if it helps any my 616 is getting 20 lbs max manifold pressure.
Cool !!! What exactly have you done?
Ed
yankneck696
01-30-2011, 07:50 PM #10(01-30-2011, 02:24 PM)josha37 lol, if it helps any my 616 is getting 20 lbs max manifold pressure.
Cool !!! What exactly have you done?
Ed
, the exhaust exits directly behind the passenger front tire so that is about as low restriction as it gets which is nice but... it makes the car very dirty. Oh and turned the trans line pressure adjustment in something like 5-6 ish turns but i need to go a little furthur when it gets warmed up it will slip a bit under heavy load but only during shifts.
Exactly? heh... first thing i did was remove anything factory exhaust related and fabbed up a pipe to connect the factory manifold to a turbo off a diesel dodge d20 pickup. then removed the ada, adjusted the torque capsule, adjusted the high idle, removed the rack limiter, stretched the fuel return spring, adjusted the delivery holders, and... thats all i can think of at the moment. On the list of to-do's is a intercooler and pre-chamber modification. I am wasting ALLOT of diesel , the exhaust exits directly behind the passenger front tire so that is about as low restriction as it gets which is nice but... it makes the car very dirty. Oh and turned the trans line pressure adjustment in something like 5-6 ish turns but i need to go a little furthur when it gets warmed up it will slip a bit under heavy load but only during shifts.
(01-29-2011, 09:08 PM)DieselSchlepper Are these engines similar internally other than piston oil spray and different pistons in the 617?
No. They have no engine part designs in common beyond the cylinder head casting and injection pump. josha37 doesn't have a clue what he is doing and is following the advice of one person that has even less understanding.
The block, crank, rods, piston pins, pistons, prechambers, camshaft, oil pump and valves are all different to handle the stress of a turbo. You need to read this before considering adding a turbo: http://papers.sae.org/780633/
ForcedInduction
01-30-2011, 10:43 PM
#12
(01-29-2011, 09:08 PM)DieselSchlepper Are these engines similar internally other than piston oil spray and different pistons in the 617?
No. They have no engine part designs in common beyond the cylinder head casting and injection pump. josha37 doesn't have a clue what he is doing and is following the advice of one person that has even less understanding.
The block, crank, rods, piston pins, pistons, prechambers, camshaft, oil pump and valves are all different to handle the stress of a turbo. You need to read this before considering adding a turbo: http://papers.sae.org/780633/
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
01-31-2011, 04:23 PM #13Guess I missed all the excitement!
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
DieselSchlepper
01-31-2011, 08:16 PM #14Thanks: Wondering how in India they are producing the OM616 in turbo. Low boost or did they do extensive mods?
When the OM617a was released there was also very little knowledge/long term data on longevity of turbocharged passenger car IDI diesels which gave Mercedes reason to be extra careful. In hindsight 30 years later I think the engineers would realize that they could have tuned these engines for a bit more power and/or omitted some of the modifications done to the turbo engines and still retained excellent longevity and reliability. Instead they ended up with an engine that can easily outlive both the people driving them, and the chassis it's installed in.
Another factor that I think often escapes home modders is the extreme environments a stock un-modified car is engineered to survive. A stock Mercedes turbo diesel can, for example survive regularly climbing steep grades fully loaded at full throttle in 120F heat for decades on end. People whom don't subject their cars to this type of extreme use (people whom perhaps aren't professional taxi drivers in Africa) can still experience good longevity tuning their engines to produce significantly more power however the stock cooling and other systems wouldn't handle those power levels long term in certain extreme conditions.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
I'd wager that a regular OM616 would handle stock OM617a boost levels for a very long time without problems. Longer perhaps even than many other purpose built turbo diesel engines. The modifications done to factory turbo motors aren't strictly necessary, but increase durability and longevity in a manner consistent with the Mercedes Benz practice of severely over-engineering, and under-tuning everything. A practice that leads to their legendary reputation for longevity...
When the OM617a was released there was also very little knowledge/long term data on longevity of turbocharged passenger car IDI diesels which gave Mercedes reason to be extra careful. In hindsight 30 years later I think the engineers would realize that they could have tuned these engines for a bit more power and/or omitted some of the modifications done to the turbo engines and still retained excellent longevity and reliability. Instead they ended up with an engine that can easily outlive both the people driving them, and the chassis it's installed in.
Another factor that I think often escapes home modders is the extreme environments a stock un-modified car is engineered to survive. A stock Mercedes turbo diesel can, for example survive regularly climbing steep grades fully loaded at full throttle in 120F heat for decades on end. People whom don't subject their cars to this type of extreme use (people whom perhaps aren't professional taxi drivers in Africa) can still experience good longevity tuning their engines to produce significantly more power however the stock cooling and other systems wouldn't handle those power levels long term in certain extreme conditions.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 07:01 AM #16It's amazing the passion the Germans have for strength and endurance. I own several Deutz aircooled engines, one of which I put into an old pickup, just for fun, and I'm constantly impressed with it. It's an F5L 912. The Deutz are known world over for longevity. I have a friend shopowner who has seen the F4L 912 last over 20,000 hours. I have another 5 and a 4. They give rough muscular power as you might imagine from about 1 liter per cylinder. The five is a 4.9 and in good weather with number 1 diesel I've gotten 26-27 mpg and I'm on it all the time. This is what has lead me to the Mercedes and the OM617. I want to get several of them before they get scarce. Thanks for the great answers.
(01-31-2011, 08:16 PM)DieselSchlepper Thanks: Wondering how in India they are producing the OM616 in turbo. Low boost or did they do extensive mods?
Force Motors (Tempo) basically made a 617a - 1 cylinder after they licensed MB's design. Even the transmission is a licensed MB clone. 90hp was factory.
ForcedInduction
02-01-2011, 12:46 PM
#17
(01-31-2011, 08:16 PM)DieselSchlepper Thanks: Wondering how in India they are producing the OM616 in turbo. Low boost or did they do extensive mods?
Force Motors (Tempo) basically made a 617a - 1 cylinder after they licensed MB's design. Even the transmission is a licensed MB clone. 90hp was factory.
Ed
yankneck696
02-01-2011, 05:25 PM #19So, while building this engine in India, did they use ALL of the upgrades that the 617a did? Would there be anything they skipped?
Ed
Traveller aka sprinter:
![[Image: traveller_3050.jpg]](http://www.forcemotors.com/images/traveller_3050.jpg)
Trax aka G-wagen:
![[Image: gurkha4wd.jpg]](http://www.forcemotors.com/images/gurkha4wd.jpg)
Supposedly they now have a direct injected engine based off the OM616. I wonder if the head and pistons could be used on a regular 616 to convert to direct injection?
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
Man, those force motors vehicles seem really cool. They don't just copy the MB engines- but the chassis too.
Traveller aka sprinter:
Trax aka G-wagen:
Supposedly they now have a direct injected engine based off the OM616. I wonder if the head and pistons could be used on a regular 616 to convert to direct injection?
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(02-01-2011, 05:31 PM)casioqv I wonder if the head and pistons could be used on a regular 616 to convert to direct injection?
No. The deck height is far too short to support direct injection pistons.
ForcedInduction
02-01-2011, 06:42 PM
#21
(02-01-2011, 05:31 PM)casioqv I wonder if the head and pistons could be used on a regular 616 to convert to direct injection?
No. The deck height is far too short to support direct injection pistons.
(02-01-2011, 06:42 PM)ForcedInduction No. The deck height is far too short to support direct injection pistons.
I'm not really sure what this means, but they do claim to have "further developed" the OM616 into a DI engine:
Quote:The famous 'Mercedes' OM-616 engine made under license has been further developed with Force Motors's own R & D and with assistance from M/s. Ricardo of UK & M/s. AVL of Austria, to create a large and modern facility of IDI, Direct injection, turbo / intercooled and Tractor Engines.http://www.forcemotors.com/power_pack_ma...uring.html
That could perhaps even be a mistake or mistranslation, because the photos of the engines on the assembly line below that quote look more like N/A OM602s to me.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(02-01-2011, 06:42 PM)ForcedInduction No. The deck height is far too short to support direct injection pistons.
I'm not really sure what this means, but they do claim to have "further developed" the OM616 into a DI engine:
Quote:The famous 'Mercedes' OM-616 engine made under license has been further developed with Force Motors's own R & D and with assistance from M/s. Ricardo of UK & M/s. AVL of Austria, to create a large and modern facility of IDI, Direct injection, turbo / intercooled and Tractor Engines.http://www.forcemotors.com/power_pack_ma...uring.html
That could perhaps even be a mistake or mistranslation, because the photos of the engines on the assembly line below that quote look more like N/A OM602s to me.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
What's the weight of these engines anyway?
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 07:57 PM #23They're taking liberties in the interest of advertising.
What's the weight of these engines anyway?
(02-01-2011, 07:57 PM)DieselSchlepper They're taking liberties in the interest of advertising.
Agreed.
Probably the only mechanical similarities between the two are the boreXstroke dimensions.
Deck height means the total height of the block from the crank centerline to the top of the...well...deck. Ever notice how thick our cylinder heads are compared to other engines? Thats because the combustion chamber is in it instead of the piston. The blocks of DI engines are taller to support the taller pistons.
ForcedInduction
02-01-2011, 08:59 PM
#24
(02-01-2011, 07:57 PM)DieselSchlepper They're taking liberties in the interest of advertising.
Agreed.
Probably the only mechanical similarities between the two are the boreXstroke dimensions.
Deck height means the total height of the block from the crank centerline to the top of the...well...deck. Ever notice how thick our cylinder heads are compared to other engines? Thats because the combustion chamber is in it instead of the piston. The blocks of DI engines are taller to support the taller pistons.
(02-01-2011, 08:59 PM)ForcedInduction Ever notice how thick our cylinder heads are compared to other engines?
Actually the OM61x has the thinnest cylinder head I've ever seen on an overhead cam motor... mostly because the most of the valvetrain is mounted above, rather than inside the head.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(02-01-2011, 08:59 PM)ForcedInduction Ever notice how thick our cylinder heads are compared to other engines?
Actually the OM61x has the thinnest cylinder head I've ever seen on an overhead cam motor... mostly because the most of the valvetrain is mounted above, rather than inside the head.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
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