You guys seem like you might appreciate
You guys seem like you might appreciate
02-01-2011, 08:24 AM
#1
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...-Emissions
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 02:36 PM by DieselSchlepper.
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 08:24 AM #1this. Sorry for posting so much so soon, but have been gratified by your response so far. Here's some work I did on the Common Rail VW TDI 4 cylinder, which is a primarily a Bosch creation and German so maybe you'll find it interesting and helpful. I think his is a basic model for the CR in general.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...-Emissions
02-01-2011, 12:32 PM
#2
ForcedInduction
02-01-2011, 12:32 PM
#2
I would have liked the PD engine better if they had used something other than a timing belt. The Unit injectors can produce much higher injection pressures than a CR engine.
02-01-2011, 02:24 PM
#3
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 02:24 PM #3As far as I understand, the big problem with the PD was the cam had to do double duty for valves and unit injectors. IN the US the failure rate was high on the narrow cam lobes, everywhere else almost nonexistent. One of the problems in the US is that everyone has trouble understanding that if VW specifies 505.0x oil they mean exactly that. My 2009 CBEA engine specs 507.00 and THREE times before my first change I asked the dealer what they were putting in the new engines and THREE times they showed me the 505.01 bottle. If you don' use the right oil in these newer engines you have real problems.
02-01-2011, 02:27 PM
#4
VW diesels seem to suffer from stuck rings if not used on 100% Group IV synthetic oil.
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 02:33 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
I don't mind timing belt diesels myself as long as they're easy to access (the TDI one really isn't). On my Volvo diesel I can do the timing belt in about 30mins every 60k miles. I could probably do the job six or more times quicker and cheaper than replacing a single Mercedes timing chain.
VW diesels seem to suffer from stuck rings if not used on 100% Group IV synthetic oil.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-01-2011, 02:35 PM
#5
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 02:43 PM by DieselSchlepper.
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 02:35 PM #5Timing belts decrease harmonic vibration. I thought that you could carefully take the Merc chain apart and then attach the new one and thread it through. Read it in a book. Seems crazy to put a new chain on old gears though - is that done?
02-01-2011, 03:08 PM
#6
Just like bicycle sprockets, timing chain sprockets don't wear much if the chain is replaced before it stretches beyond a certain point.
Mercedes timing chain wear seems to be heavily dependent on oil quality. The late Marshall Booth documented half the rate of chain wear on synthetic oil, vs. non-synthetics in his cars (OM60x chains also wear half as fast as OM61x chains). He claims an OM60x chain should last nearly 800k miles before needing replacement on group IV synthetic. My 190D Turbo (OM602) has been ran on synthetic most of it's life and has no detectable stretch/wear after 227k miles whereas my dad has a 300D (OM617a) where the chain was so stretched the valves were about to hit the pistons after only 150k miles.
Personally I'd rather replace timing belts at 60k than experience the under 200k mile life of an OM61x chain running on non-synthetic, but I'd much rather have a chain that essentially never needs replacement as on the OM60x running full synthetic. Of course, if we're comparing VW diesels to Mercedes- the entire VW engine will die of stuck rings on non-synthetic about the same time an OM617 would be due for it's first chain replacement.
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 03:32 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
Yea, the Mercedes timing chains aren't that difficult to replace, just more so than some timing belts. The TDI timing belt is actually harder...
Just like bicycle sprockets, timing chain sprockets don't wear much if the chain is replaced before it stretches beyond a certain point.
Mercedes timing chain wear seems to be heavily dependent on oil quality. The late Marshall Booth documented half the rate of chain wear on synthetic oil, vs. non-synthetics in his cars (OM60x chains also wear half as fast as OM61x chains). He claims an OM60x chain should last nearly 800k miles before needing replacement on group IV synthetic. My 190D Turbo (OM602) has been ran on synthetic most of it's life and has no detectable stretch/wear after 227k miles whereas my dad has a 300D (OM617a) where the chain was so stretched the valves were about to hit the pistons after only 150k miles.
Personally I'd rather replace timing belts at 60k than experience the under 200k mile life of an OM61x chain running on non-synthetic, but I'd much rather have a chain that essentially never needs replacement as on the OM60x running full synthetic. Of course, if we're comparing VW diesels to Mercedes- the entire VW engine will die of stuck rings on non-synthetic about the same time an OM617 would be due for it's first chain replacement.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-01-2011, 04:22 PM
#7
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 04:22 PM #7Yeah but the VW is a lighter engine, isn't it? Hence more delicate, more over engineered. I'll have to check the weight of the VW 4 to the OM616.
02-01-2011, 04:30 PM
#8
yankneck696
02-01-2011, 04:30 PM #8I think you will definitely find that you can get quite a bit of power out of the VW per it's weight, but much more longevity out of the Mercedes.
02-01-2011, 04:35 PM
#9
(02-01-2011, 04:30 PM)yankneck696 but much more longevity out of the Mercedes.
Both VW diesels and Mercedes diesels experience very little wear on full synthetic- either will easily last over a million miles in most situations.
The VW diesels just seem to have a particular problem where carbon builds up behind the rings, presses them out into the bores, and destroys both the rings and bores in short order. This problem is 100% eliminated on synthetic oil- people have torn down VW diesels with over 300k miles on synthetic and found no measurable wear. The rest of the VW engines (bearings, etc.) wear just as well as Mercedes engines, even on non-synthetic.
I don't understand why VW diesels have this problem, and Mercedes do not- but I doubt it has anything to do with the weight, size, or power output of the engines.
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 04:38 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(02-01-2011, 04:30 PM)yankneck696 but much more longevity out of the Mercedes.
Both VW diesels and Mercedes diesels experience very little wear on full synthetic- either will easily last over a million miles in most situations.
The VW diesels just seem to have a particular problem where carbon builds up behind the rings, presses them out into the bores, and destroys both the rings and bores in short order. This problem is 100% eliminated on synthetic oil- people have torn down VW diesels with over 300k miles on synthetic and found no measurable wear. The rest of the VW engines (bearings, etc.) wear just as well as Mercedes engines, even on non-synthetic.
I don't understand why VW diesels have this problem, and Mercedes do not- but I doubt it has anything to do with the weight, size, or power output of the engines.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-01-2011, 05:26 PM
#10
The VW diesels just seem to have a particular problem where carbon builds up behind the rings, presses them out into the bores, and destroys both the rings and bores in short order. This problem is 100% eliminated on synthetic oil- people have torn down VW diesels with over 300k miles on synthetic and found no measurable wear. The rest of the VW engines (bearings, etc.) wear just as well as Mercedes engines, even on non-synthetic.
I don't understand why VW diesels have this problem, and Mercedes do not- but I doubt it has anything to do with the weight, size, or power output of the engines.
[/quote]hi
i am currently driving a 1996 Audi A4 with 254k miles. It will only burn oil when reved slighly from cold but only when you lift off the gas on the over run. I can stop it doing this by driving it different believe it or not. It will not do this when it starts to warm up, no smoke at all. To me it seems like it sucks oil into the bore past the rings when cold, what does anyone think on this?
I also have a vw passat with the same engine 201k miles. Both cars drive well. These are the older 1.9tdi AFN engines with injector pumps.
wayne
Both VW diesels and Mercedes diesels experience very little wear on full synthetic- either will easily last over a million miles in most situations.
The VW diesels just seem to have a particular problem where carbon builds up behind the rings, presses them out into the bores, and destroys both the rings and bores in short order. This problem is 100% eliminated on synthetic oil- people have torn down VW diesels with over 300k miles on synthetic and found no measurable wear. The rest of the VW engines (bearings, etc.) wear just as well as Mercedes engines, even on non-synthetic.
I don't understand why VW diesels have this problem, and Mercedes do not- but I doubt it has anything to do with the weight, size, or power output of the engines.
[/quote]hi
i am currently driving a 1996 Audi A4 with 254k miles. It will only burn oil when reved slighly from cold but only when you lift off the gas on the over run. I can stop it doing this by driving it different believe it or not. It will not do this when it starts to warm up, no smoke at all. To me it seems like it sucks oil into the bore past the rings when cold, what does anyone think on this?
I also have a vw passat with the same engine 201k miles. Both cars drive well. These are the older 1.9tdi AFN engines with injector pumps.
wayne
02-01-2011, 05:58 PM
#11
Sometimes when VW diesels are just beginning to suffer symptoms of low compression from stuck rings, the condition can be still be remedied by switching to synthetic oil and running the engine hard whenever possible. Smoke when cold can be caused by other things also- worn injectors, improper injector pump adjustment, etc. Most of my knowledge pertains to the older IDI engines.
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 06:00 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
Wayne- the grammar in your post is very confusing to me, but you might want to try your question on a TDI forum like tdiclub.com.
Sometimes when VW diesels are just beginning to suffer symptoms of low compression from stuck rings, the condition can be still be remedied by switching to synthetic oil and running the engine hard whenever possible. Smoke when cold can be caused by other things also- worn injectors, improper injector pump adjustment, etc. Most of my knowledge pertains to the older IDI engines.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-01-2011, 08:09 PM
#12
(02-01-2011, 05:26 PM)mantahead Both VW diesels and Mercedes diesels experience very little wear on full synthetic- either will easily last over a million miles in most situations.hi
The VW diesels just seem to have a particular problem where carbon builds up behind the rings, presses them out into the bores, and destroys both the rings and bores in short order. This problem is 100% eliminated on synthetic oil- people have torn down VW diesels with over 300k miles on synthetic and found no measurable wear. The rest of the VW engines (bearings, etc.) wear just as well as Mercedes engines, even on non-synthetic.
I don't understand why VW diesels have this problem, and Mercedes do not- but I doubt it has anything to do with the weight, size, or power output of the engines.
i am currently driving a 1996 Audi A4 with 254k miles. It will only burn oil when reved slighly from cold but only when you lift off the gas on the over run. I can stop it doing this by driving it different believe it or not. It will not do this when it starts to warm up, no smoke at all. To me it seems like it sucks oil into the bore past the rings when cold, what does anyone think on this?
I also have a vw passat with the same engine 201k miles. Both cars drive well. These are the older 1.9tdi AFN engines with injector pumps.
wayne
[/quote]
You could try changing oil - a slightly heavier weight. I just changed my oil to Schaeffer 7000, a semisynthetic 15w40 and added a bottle of their Molylube which is more viscous, almost on the order of STP or Lucas. Oil past the rings is normal when cold on a higher mileage engine. I notice my oil pressure pegs out now when cold on the Ford OP gage and the Deutz F5L 912 takes even longer to warm up. It's pretty standard to go to a heavier oil as an engine gets more miles on it, esp if it starts using.
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 08:09 PM #12(02-01-2011, 05:26 PM)mantahead Both VW diesels and Mercedes diesels experience very little wear on full synthetic- either will easily last over a million miles in most situations.hi
The VW diesels just seem to have a particular problem where carbon builds up behind the rings, presses them out into the bores, and destroys both the rings and bores in short order. This problem is 100% eliminated on synthetic oil- people have torn down VW diesels with over 300k miles on synthetic and found no measurable wear. The rest of the VW engines (bearings, etc.) wear just as well as Mercedes engines, even on non-synthetic.
I don't understand why VW diesels have this problem, and Mercedes do not- but I doubt it has anything to do with the weight, size, or power output of the engines.
i am currently driving a 1996 Audi A4 with 254k miles. It will only burn oil when reved slighly from cold but only when you lift off the gas on the over run. I can stop it doing this by driving it different believe it or not. It will not do this when it starts to warm up, no smoke at all. To me it seems like it sucks oil into the bore past the rings when cold, what does anyone think on this?
I also have a vw passat with the same engine 201k miles. Both cars drive well. These are the older 1.9tdi AFN engines with injector pumps.
wayne
[/quote]
You could try changing oil - a slightly heavier weight. I just changed my oil to Schaeffer 7000, a semisynthetic 15w40 and added a bottle of their Molylube which is more viscous, almost on the order of STP or Lucas. Oil past the rings is normal when cold on a higher mileage engine. I notice my oil pressure pegs out now when cold on the Ford OP gage and the Deutz F5L 912 takes even longer to warm up. It's pretty standard to go to a heavier oil as an engine gets more miles on it, esp if it starts using.
02-01-2011, 08:18 PM
#13
(02-01-2011, 08:09 PM)DieselSchlepper You could try changing oil - a slightly heavier weight.
I strongly disagree. Diesels (especially VW diesels) start much easier, last longer, get better fuel economy, and get oil pressure quicker on a cold start with thinner oil. 5w40 synthetic is the thickest oil I'd personally consider using in one even in hot climates, and 0w30 wouldn't hurt.
A true group IV synthetic has more stable viscosity as temperature changes, and will maintain a higher viscosity at high temps than a heavier weight non-synthetic or partial synthetic, so oil consumption in a running fully warmed up engine may actually be higher with a thicker non-synthetic oil. Viscosity ratings are at 100C, so a 5w40 synthetic will have the same viscosity as a 15w40 non-synthetic once the engine is warmed up, and higher if the engine is running hard and oil temps are over 100C.
A thicker oil will accelerate wear, and make cold starting much more difficult- already a problem in a motor with low compression. If the rings are so worn you can't keep 5w40 in the engine, a rebuild or re-ring is the only viable option.
Higher oil pressure when cold also means less oil volume is flowing into the engine, and more through the relief valve. This is a sign of worse, not better lubrication. With the relief valve returning more oil volume after a cold start, it takes longer for all of the engine components to experience proper oil pressure. If your oil pressure sender is mounted far from the oil filter, notice that the higher oil pressure from higher viscosity oil is also accompanied by a much longer delay for oil pressure to rise after a cold start! On a hydraulic lifter engine like the OM60x you can literally hear the enormous difference in time for the lifters to pump up between high and low viscosity oils.
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 08:56 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(02-01-2011, 08:09 PM)DieselSchlepper You could try changing oil - a slightly heavier weight.
I strongly disagree. Diesels (especially VW diesels) start much easier, last longer, get better fuel economy, and get oil pressure quicker on a cold start with thinner oil. 5w40 synthetic is the thickest oil I'd personally consider using in one even in hot climates, and 0w30 wouldn't hurt.
A true group IV synthetic has more stable viscosity as temperature changes, and will maintain a higher viscosity at high temps than a heavier weight non-synthetic or partial synthetic, so oil consumption in a running fully warmed up engine may actually be higher with a thicker non-synthetic oil. Viscosity ratings are at 100C, so a 5w40 synthetic will have the same viscosity as a 15w40 non-synthetic once the engine is warmed up, and higher if the engine is running hard and oil temps are over 100C.
A thicker oil will accelerate wear, and make cold starting much more difficult- already a problem in a motor with low compression. If the rings are so worn you can't keep 5w40 in the engine, a rebuild or re-ring is the only viable option.
Higher oil pressure when cold also means less oil volume is flowing into the engine, and more through the relief valve. This is a sign of worse, not better lubrication. With the relief valve returning more oil volume after a cold start, it takes longer for all of the engine components to experience proper oil pressure. If your oil pressure sender is mounted far from the oil filter, notice that the higher oil pressure from higher viscosity oil is also accompanied by a much longer delay for oil pressure to rise after a cold start! On a hydraulic lifter engine like the OM60x you can literally hear the enormous difference in time for the lifters to pump up between high and low viscosity oils.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-01-2011, 09:08 PM
#14
This post was last modified: 02-01-2011, 09:08 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
02-01-2011, 09:08 PM
#14
15W50 is fine to use. Mobil's is still CF rated and it has higher anti-wear additives than any other oil, but it might as well be a block of ice in freezing weather.
02-02-2011, 04:21 AM
#15
(02-01-2011, 05:58 PM)casioqv Wayne- the grammar in your post is very confusing to me, but you might want to try your question on a TDI forum like tdiclub.com.hi,
Sometimes when VW diesels are just beginning to suffer symptoms of low compression from stuck rings, the condition can be still be remedied by switching to synthetic oil and running the engine hard whenever possible. Smoke when cold can be caused by other things also- worn injectors, improper injector pump adjustment, etc. Most of my knowledge pertains to the older IDI engines.
i have lost some compression as its harder to start. Its oil smoke im getting because if i let it smoke it will need oil topped up after a while. If i drive normal and change up from 2nd to third i get no smoke but if i leave it in second and let engine slow car down it smokes badly but just when cold
wayne
(02-01-2011, 05:58 PM)casioqv Wayne- the grammar in your post is very confusing to me, but you might want to try your question on a TDI forum like tdiclub.com.hi,
Sometimes when VW diesels are just beginning to suffer symptoms of low compression from stuck rings, the condition can be still be remedied by switching to synthetic oil and running the engine hard whenever possible. Smoke when cold can be caused by other things also- worn injectors, improper injector pump adjustment, etc. Most of my knowledge pertains to the older IDI engines.
i have lost some compression as its harder to start. Its oil smoke im getting because if i let it smoke it will need oil topped up after a while. If i drive normal and change up from 2nd to third i get no smoke but if i leave it in second and let engine slow car down it smokes badly but just when cold
wayne
02-02-2011, 03:59 PM
#16
(02-01-2011, 02:24 PM)DieselSchlepper ... IN the US the failure rate was high on the narrow cam lobes, everywhere else almost nonexistent. One of the problems in the US is that everyone has trouble understanding that if VW specifies 505.0x oil they mean exactly that. ...
That is one issue. But there have been several folks who still use
vw 505.01 and still get cam wear because of changing the oil at a much lower mileage interval than the factory recommend 10,000 mile interval. I am in the camp who believes changing oil early on a TDI or even a Mercedes CDI will cause more wear then keeping it in for 10,000 miles plus.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
02-02-2011, 03:59 PM #16(02-01-2011, 02:24 PM)DieselSchlepper ... IN the US the failure rate was high on the narrow cam lobes, everywhere else almost nonexistent. One of the problems in the US is that everyone has trouble understanding that if VW specifies 505.0x oil they mean exactly that. ...
That is one issue. But there have been several folks who still use
vw 505.01 and still get cam wear because of changing the oil at a much lower mileage interval than the factory recommend 10,000 mile interval. I am in the camp who believes changing oil early on a TDI or even a Mercedes CDI will cause more wear then keeping it in for 10,000 miles plus.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
02-02-2011, 04:21 PM
#17
(02-02-2011, 03:59 PM)DeliveryValve I am in the camp who believes changing oil early on a TDI or even a Mercedes CDI will cause more wear then keeping it in for 10,000 miles plus.
I think that's true with most engines... oil analysis of metallic wear generally shows higher wear rates for the first few thousand miles after a change. 15k mile+ change intervals on group IV synthetics are probably ideal for minimizing wear; perhaps much longer if an oil analysis shows the oil to still be functioning properly and isn't experiencing fuel dilution, etc.
I know a guy whom does 25k mile Mobil 1 changes in his diesel Volvos and has documented no measurable wear on the bearings or cylinder bores after 300k+ miles of this treatment. I stick to 15k myself on M1 5w40 in both of my diesels because that's the highest mileage I've personally confirmed to be safe via oil analysis, although the oil was showing no signs of needing replacement soon. I probably should do some additional tests and extend it to 25k, and save considerable money and time.
This post was last modified: 02-02-2011, 04:29 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(02-02-2011, 03:59 PM)DeliveryValve I am in the camp who believes changing oil early on a TDI or even a Mercedes CDI will cause more wear then keeping it in for 10,000 miles plus.
I think that's true with most engines... oil analysis of metallic wear generally shows higher wear rates for the first few thousand miles after a change. 15k mile+ change intervals on group IV synthetics are probably ideal for minimizing wear; perhaps much longer if an oil analysis shows the oil to still be functioning properly and isn't experiencing fuel dilution, etc.
I know a guy whom does 25k mile Mobil 1 changes in his diesel Volvos and has documented no measurable wear on the bearings or cylinder bores after 300k+ miles of this treatment. I stick to 15k myself on M1 5w40 in both of my diesels because that's the highest mileage I've personally confirmed to be safe via oil analysis, although the oil was showing no signs of needing replacement soon. I probably should do some additional tests and extend it to 25k, and save considerable money and time.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-02-2011, 04:42 PM
#18
(02-02-2011, 04:21 PM)casioqv ...
I think that's true with most engines... oil analysis of metallic wear generally shows higher wear rates for the first few thousand miles after a change. 15k mile+ change intervals on group IV synthetics are probably ideal for minimizing wear; perhaps much longer if an oil analysis shows the oil to still be functioning properly and isn't experiencing fuel dilution, etc....
You hit it on the nail right there. Wear rates are indeed higher at 3,000 miles, then 5,000 miles and much lower at 10,000 miles. VW PD's in Europe have a scheduled oil change regimen at 18,000 miles.
US schedules are based on dealerships whining about loosing their cash cow oil changes and taking advantage of the service industry's hype of changing oil at 3,000 miles. Because of that, many VW dealerships would recommend a 5,000 mile oil change interval, much earlier then the US factory recommend 10,000, just to get people's money. Little do unsuspecting folks know they are doing more harm to their cars then good. Yet people have gone further past 20,000 miles with much lower wear rates then at 5,000 miles.
.
This post was last modified: 02-02-2011, 04:44 PM by DeliveryValve.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
02-02-2011, 04:42 PM #18(02-02-2011, 04:21 PM)casioqv ...
I think that's true with most engines... oil analysis of metallic wear generally shows higher wear rates for the first few thousand miles after a change. 15k mile+ change intervals on group IV synthetics are probably ideal for minimizing wear; perhaps much longer if an oil analysis shows the oil to still be functioning properly and isn't experiencing fuel dilution, etc....
You hit it on the nail right there. Wear rates are indeed higher at 3,000 miles, then 5,000 miles and much lower at 10,000 miles. VW PD's in Europe have a scheduled oil change regimen at 18,000 miles.
US schedules are based on dealerships whining about loosing their cash cow oil changes and taking advantage of the service industry's hype of changing oil at 3,000 miles. Because of that, many VW dealerships would recommend a 5,000 mile oil change interval, much earlier then the US factory recommend 10,000, just to get people's money. Little do unsuspecting folks know they are doing more harm to their cars then good. Yet people have gone further past 20,000 miles with much lower wear rates then at 5,000 miles.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
02-02-2011, 05:29 PM
#19
Combined of my two cars, I only drove 9,160.7miles last year. If I were to go by your suggestion of 10-15k on synthetic, my 300 would see an oil change every other year and my 240 once every 3 years! Once/year for both is fine.
ForcedInduction
02-02-2011, 05:29 PM
#19
Thats fairly difficult to convince of anyone in the USA since the average person does only 13k/year.
Combined of my two cars, I only drove 9,160.7miles last year. If I were to go by your suggestion of 10-15k on synthetic, my 300 would see an oil change every other year and my 240 once every 3 years! Once/year for both is fine.
02-02-2011, 06:22 PM
#20
(02-02-2011, 05:29 PM)ForcedInduction Thats fairly difficult to convince of anyone in the USA since the average person does only 13k/year.
Combined of my two cars, I only drove 9,160.7miles last year. If I were to go by your suggestion of 10-15k on synthetic, my 300 would see an oil change every other year and my 240 once every 3 years! Once/year for both is fine.
Yeah, I think it's fine with the older diesels. But just to note for the PDs, CRs, CDI's, etc the European recommendation is 2 years. In the US it's still 1 year.
Oh I forgotten to mention there are virtually no PD cam failures in Europe. Coincidence?
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
02-02-2011, 06:22 PM #20(02-02-2011, 05:29 PM)ForcedInduction Thats fairly difficult to convince of anyone in the USA since the average person does only 13k/year.
Combined of my two cars, I only drove 9,160.7miles last year. If I were to go by your suggestion of 10-15k on synthetic, my 300 would see an oil change every other year and my 240 once every 3 years! Once/year for both is fine.
Yeah, I think it's fine with the older diesels. But just to note for the PDs, CRs, CDI's, etc the European recommendation is 2 years. In the US it's still 1 year.
Oh I forgotten to mention there are virtually no PD cam failures in Europe. Coincidence?
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
02-02-2011, 09:44 PM
#21
Deutz recommends 15w40 for their 912 engines in my climate. I didn't use it because of wear. It starts easier now with the 7000 in it in the cold. If your engine's worn a heavier oil should help. I've done it several times with good results.
This post was last modified: 02-02-2011, 09:52 PM by DieselSchlepper.
DieselSchlepper
02-02-2011, 09:44 PM #21Now that's an interesting thought that flies in the face of conventional "wisdom". Longer oil change intervals leading to less wear. There was a big debate on the PD lobe wear issue over on Fred's once. I dared to step in and ask if any hardness testing with a Brinel tester was done on any US cams - they had some right there. Of course all the "gurus" ignored me. Pretty hard to determine why cams are wearing prematurely unless you find out what the metal hardness is! One of the things that came out is that there are fleets of PD engines grinding out millions of combined miles and cam lobe wear is virtually unknown. I think they are still scratching their heads over that question. LOL, run over there and tell them they need to change their oil less to keep their cams healthy.
Deutz recommends 15w40 for their 912 engines in my climate. I didn't use it because of wear. It starts easier now with the 7000 in it in the cold. If your engine's worn a heavier oil should help. I've done it several times with good results.
02-02-2011, 10:18 PM
#22
(02-02-2011, 09:44 PM)DieselSchlepper Now that's an interesting thought that flies in the face of conventional "wisdom". Longer oil change intervals leading to less wear.
My experience is that "conventional wisdom" is very rarely accurate; not just when dealing with automobiles.
I have seen oil analysis data from several engines repeated at regular intervals, and the metallic wear rate (change in metallic wear particle concentration/distance) does in fact fall, rather than rise with mileage (at least with Group IV synthetics) in both gasoline and diesel engines. I have no idea what the underlying mechanism is here, however. There's zero scientific evidence for the 3,000 mile change pushed by oil marketing campaigns, but their efforts to convince people that they're necessary have been widely successful.
//edit: Check this out: http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stori...-life.html
Metallic wear rates (bottom 3 lines) over 18k miles with Mobil 1:
![[Image: lifeg593.gif]](http://neptune.spacebears.com/images/stories/lifeg593.gif)
Too bad they didn't label there axes... but you get the point.
This post was last modified: 02-02-2011, 10:35 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(02-02-2011, 09:44 PM)DieselSchlepper Now that's an interesting thought that flies in the face of conventional "wisdom". Longer oil change intervals leading to less wear.
My experience is that "conventional wisdom" is very rarely accurate; not just when dealing with automobiles.
I have seen oil analysis data from several engines repeated at regular intervals, and the metallic wear rate (change in metallic wear particle concentration/distance) does in fact fall, rather than rise with mileage (at least with Group IV synthetics) in both gasoline and diesel engines. I have no idea what the underlying mechanism is here, however. There's zero scientific evidence for the 3,000 mile change pushed by oil marketing campaigns, but their efforts to convince people that they're necessary have been widely successful.
//edit: Check this out: http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stori...-life.html
Metallic wear rates (bottom 3 lines) over 18k miles with Mobil 1:
Too bad they didn't label there axes... but you get the point.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-04-2011, 05:01 PM
#24
(02-02-2011, 10:18 PM)casioqv ..... I have no idea what the underlying mechanism is here, however. .....
Here is a copy of a post of one of Fred's respected member's opinion regarding the underlying mechanism of how it works. Another member asked about 7500 mile oil changes of his CBEA when it first came out.
Quote:STOP STOP STOP!
The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!
Did you comprehend that?
THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!
Now that I have that off my chest,
VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?
Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car
VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!
Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.
The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.
Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.
Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!
Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?
Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.
Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.
You break down the oils life cycle like this:
Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles
Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.
Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.
Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.
Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?
--------------------------------------------------------------
When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!
PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
Short drain intervals
1K oil change
10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles
3K oil change
10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles
5K oil change
10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles
Long drain intervals
10K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles
15K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles
20K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles
When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...
The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.
I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).
Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!
This post was last modified: 02-04-2011, 05:21 PM by DeliveryValve.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
02-04-2011, 05:01 PM #24(02-02-2011, 10:18 PM)casioqv ..... I have no idea what the underlying mechanism is here, however. .....
Here is a copy of a post of one of Fred's respected member's opinion regarding the underlying mechanism of how it works. Another member asked about 7500 mile oil changes of his CBEA when it first came out.
Quote:STOP STOP STOP!
The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!
Did you comprehend that?
THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!
Now that I have that off my chest,
VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?
Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car
VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!
Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.
The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.
Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.
Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!
Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?
Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.
Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.
You break down the oils life cycle like this:
Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles
Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.
Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.
Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.
Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?
--------------------------------------------------------------
When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!
PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
Short drain intervals
1K oil change
10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles
3K oil change
10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles
5K oil change
10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles
Long drain intervals
10K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles
15K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles
20K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles
When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...
The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.
I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).
Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
02-04-2011, 05:18 PM
#25
This post was last modified: 02-04-2011, 05:22 PM by casioqv.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
02-05-2011, 02:11 PM
#26
PS.....Mrs Delivery Valve looks hot in the passenger seat of your Merc....I hope she appreciates the powerful turbocharged diesel engine under hood.....
This post was last modified: 02-12-2011, 03:46 AM by Riverstick.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
02-05-2011, 02:11 PM #26Right with you there Delivery Valve....We've been running VW and Merc diesels since the 1970's and for some reason I always went for an extended oil change interval(back then everyone was looking for 2,500/3,000 mile oil change intervals)....never knew why....just a gut instinct I guess....After reading your article above I think I'll stick with my instincts......never took a head off a Merc in millions of kilometers....VW's diesels are good too but just nowhere near the Merc in service.....I now use Lucas Oil Stabiliser and find it excellent....20% with the engine oil....50% in the manual transmission and 50% in the rear end....in fact I'm condering doubling the oil change intervals from 20k to 40k in the CDI Mercs....BTW there are camshafts galore packing up in VW's over here as well....mainly the 2.5 litre 5 cylinder engine
PS.....Mrs Delivery Valve looks hot in the passenger seat of your Merc....I hope she appreciates the powerful turbocharged diesel engine under hood.....
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
02-11-2011, 07:29 AM
#27
DieselSchlepper
02-11-2011, 07:29 AM #27Sounds good to me. I'm sure there is disagreement over that though. I think I'll go with the OA on mine at 9K miles and see what it says. What about changing the filter at shorter intervals?
02-12-2011, 06:47 AM
#28
(02-11-2011, 07:29 AM)DieselSchlepper What about changing the filter at shorter intervals?5000miles.
ForcedInduction
02-12-2011, 06:47 AM
#28
(02-11-2011, 07:29 AM)DieselSchlepper What about changing the filter at shorter intervals?5000miles.
02-13-2011, 06:39 PM
#29
(02-11-2011, 07:29 AM)DieselSchlepper Sounds good to me. I'm sure there is disagreement over that though. I think I'll go with the OA on mine at 9K miles and see what it says. What about changing the filter at shorter intervals?
For the 617, the factory recommends 5,000 mile oil changes here in the US and 6,000 mile oil changes in Europe. That recommendation is based on dino oil. I would think at 9K the oil filter is still serviceable. An OA would tell you for sure if the filter is bad with high levels of insolubles.
There is always a possibility an oil filter would degrade in time and mileage. Some brands are worst then others. With that said it is probably best to keep the factory recommendation, but if you want to push it wouldn't run an OE filter longer then 10,000 miles or more then a year because I've seen them degrade or fall apart.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
02-13-2011, 06:39 PM #29(02-11-2011, 07:29 AM)DieselSchlepper Sounds good to me. I'm sure there is disagreement over that though. I think I'll go with the OA on mine at 9K miles and see what it says. What about changing the filter at shorter intervals?
For the 617, the factory recommends 5,000 mile oil changes here in the US and 6,000 mile oil changes in Europe. That recommendation is based on dino oil. I would think at 9K the oil filter is still serviceable. An OA would tell you for sure if the filter is bad with high levels of insolubles.
There is always a possibility an oil filter would degrade in time and mileage. Some brands are worst then others. With that said it is probably best to keep the factory recommendation, but if you want to push it wouldn't run an OE filter longer then 10,000 miles or more then a year because I've seen them degrade or fall apart.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
02-26-2011, 09:20 AM
#30
(02-01-2011, 03:08 PM)casioqv Yea, the Mercedes timing chains aren't that difficult to replace, just more so than some timing belts. The TDI timing belt is actually harder...
I think that's only true for the A4 generation and beyond, the A3 / B4 TDI (AHU/1Z) engine was as simple as changing belts on the A2 diesel cars. Setting IP requires computer and software so that's more trouble but the physical belt is easy.
The Volvo (VW 2.4 6 cyl) diesel is easy because it all sits out front, which is the same for the old Audi 4k diesel cars too.
(02-01-2011, 03:08 PM)casioqv Yea, the Mercedes timing chains aren't that difficult to replace, just more so than some timing belts. The TDI timing belt is actually harder...
I think that's only true for the A4 generation and beyond, the A3 / B4 TDI (AHU/1Z) engine was as simple as changing belts on the A2 diesel cars. Setting IP requires computer and software so that's more trouble but the physical belt is easy.
The Volvo (VW 2.4 6 cyl) diesel is easy because it all sits out front, which is the same for the old Audi 4k diesel cars too.
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