How to adapt a W201 5-speed to OM616/OM617 applications
How to adapt a W201 5-speed to OM616/OM617 applications
Post 15 is also where I am stashing part numbers needed for the swap(s) depending on application.
This is condensed how to version of this thread- http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/617-...t-323.html.
The goal of that project was to build a working overdrive transmission constructed out of readily available and reasonably priced MB parts available in North America that bolted to a 617 or 616 diesel engine. Ultimately, this was to address the general top speed and fuel economy limitations that the typical 123 cars have with a 1-1 transmission ratio. In short, I wanted to drive faster and use less fuel doing it.
A little introduction-
If you live in North America, it is next to impossible to get your hands on a stock overdrive transmission for the 617 turbo and 616 NA in the W123 and W126 chassis, even though they do exist. Choices are limited to ordering from overseas or hunting for very rare parts if you want to find something from MB.
However, Mercedes DID offer their smaller W201 sedans with 5-speeds of various types for sale in the same region, and parts and spares for those models, while not thick on the ground, are fairly easy to find.
The problem is also complicated by the transmission orientation in Mercedes sedans, most using linkage arms with the transmission considerably further forward in the tunnel and further from the shifter than domestic or Asian models. Its fairly simple to move the engine out of the car and mount it to a domestic or Asian gearbox in another application, but those transmissions are more complex to fit in the designed orientation of an existing Mercedes. This can be done, and done extremely well as many have demonstrated, but the hope of the method described in this thread was that it can be relatively simple and not require too much work or excessive cost. If you want to keep your car and gear it up faster or for fuel economy, you're choices are limited to waiting for a lucky break, or building something custom.
Following is a hopefully clear description of how to adapt a W201 tranny that may have been bolted to the 190E or D 1.8, 2.0, 2.3, 2.6, 2.5-16 gas engines, or the 2.2D, 2.5D diesel engines if they all share the same bell pattern, to an OM616 or OM617 application. Surprisingly, given the right skills and resources needed, its actually an easy and simple procedure provided you get a look at the input shaft cover plate on the 5-speed. (ill come to that later). I was able to swap using two cast aluminum housings that shared cover plate features, so I can only assert that its possible with some cast housing models until a greater body of data on the matter has been collected.
For this project, I used a 1984 190E 5-speed, 717.411 designation, and a 1981 240D 4-speed with the designation 716.210. Other potential 190 tranny types that should work are 717.412 and 717.410 designations. When sourcing the 5-speed, make certain that you also grab the shifter and linkage rods for that tranny. The linkage rods can be sourced from the classic center, but the shifter is an assembly of numerous parts, some of which are probably NLA at this point. Without the matching 5-speed shifter, all the work on the tranny is irrelevant.
Most importantly, what makes this swap possible is that the 240 and 190 input shaft cover plates of certain models share the same bolt patterns and distance from the bell housing bolt pattern. This means that certain 4 and 5 speed gearboxes out of different chassis start at the same depth inside the bell and possess identical bolt patterns at that depth. Using a jig constructed to maintain these relationships, it becomes straightforward to swap the ends of the bells.
The important thing to look for is the 6-bolt cover plate inside the 5-speed bell that is the same as the ones below. If its built with one of those, you're in business.
There are three fundamental deal breaking differences between the W201 chassis trannys and W123/W126 chassis trannys.
1- The bell housing bolt pattern
You will have to swap the first 3 inches of the bell with a OM61x pattern. You will need-
A- a welder who can weld cast aluminum
B- To construct a jig for bell welding
2- The input shaft length and spline pattern
This is actually an optional modification depending on how far you want to go. It also depends on whether you are fully sacrificing a 4-speed, or just using it as a bolt pattern template, then putting it back together. If you pull of the front cover of the 4-speed, you should be able to duplicate the plate pattern without disassembling the gearbox. The input shafts share the same pilot bearing part number, but the 190 is shorter and has twice the splines. If you make this change and swap the ends of the input shafts to a OM61x spec part, you will need-
A- An OM61x input shaft out of a 4-speed
B- a machinist who can cut and prepare the shafts
C- A welder who can do the welding
advantages to doing it- you have a transmission in the end that should bolt right in using all stock OM61x clutch parts and present no external swap problems. You will not have to adapt a costly 190 clutch to the OM61x application and deal with a potential input shaft length problem.
disadvantages to doing it- You are creating a potential weak point, however remote, in a surface hardened component, and you are adding some front end cost and machine work which may cost about the same as a 190 clutch. One of the goals on the thread is to ultimately explore both options on different vehicles.
3- The output shaft flange
Easy, I found that the splines for the output flange were identical for both models on the manual transmissions, as well as the important characteristics of the flange. Just swap them and the W123/W126 drive shaft should match.
here are some comparison shots of the 4 and 5 speeds. Notice the input shaft cover plates on both inside the bell. The 5 speed is longer, and the overdrive is located within its own separate compartment from the rest of the gearing on the end of the box.
Heres a closer shot of the input shaft plates with both transmissions broken down. The 190 has an additional fluid provision above the input shaft bore as it uses tapered roller bearing rather than standard bearings-
heres an even clearer comparison, the left side is the 190, the right side the 240-
Procedure-
1- break both gearboxes down fully, or remove the cover plate from the 4-speed and fully break down the 5-speed. (Directions below). The purpose here is to make a bell housing jig. Part of the reason you want to completely break down the 5-speed is that it is way easier to handle for welding, and you can inspect and rebuild at the same time. No sense in going to all this trouble and not regasketing, resealing, or installing needed parts in the donor tranny. The case alone is fairly light and easy to handle. You want to make a jig that duplicates the positioning of the 240 bolt positions, so start with that gearbox for duplicating the pattern. For the jig featured below, I completely took apart the 4-speed, it simplified building the jig. If the 4-speed were to remain together, you would have to add some large holes in the small plate discussed below for the input and countershaft.
Once broken down, its super easy. make a small plate and bolt it to the inner bolt pattern and make a large plate with a large hole in it about a foot in diameter and bolt it to the outer bolt pattern. Weld the two together securely using some angle iron or another stiff steel part. Unbolt. Here is a pic of the jig I constructed-
2- cut the bell housings, I measured back 3 inches from the pattern on both bells, and used a standard hacksaw to make the cut. This is a pic showing both 3 inch thick end pieces. Its important to note that the doner 3 inches came from a bad 4-speed transmission which was completely sacrificed for this project. You should just as easily be able to use 3 inches from a bad auto tranny bell as well-
3- fit the 240 pattern and the 190 case to your jig. The most important thing here is that both pieces do not touch, but are close. If they touch, you might throw off the angle of the jig and cause major problems much later. Its worth grinding down and settling for a larger gap over the possibility of off square-
here is a pic of the 240 pattern being fitted-
This is a pic of bolting the 190 case to the jig after. The purpose of the large hole is so that you can access these bolt locations-
Once the jig is complete built off of the 4-speed, you have several options based on level of difficulty.
Option 1 is to sacrifice the 4-speed tranny and cut it apart to make your OM61x 5-speed. I followed this route since my donor 4-speed was damaged anyway. Loss, one fairly rare 4-speed, but you gain the input shaft mod unless you can source the input shaft itself from someplace like the classic center which is certainly possible. The price on the input shaft alone is in the nature of 500 dollars, which was a dealbreaker for me.
Option 2 is to reassemble the 4-speed, find a busted automatic from a OM61x and cut the bell housing off of that like mentioned above. Loss- one common automatic
Option 3 is to completely fabricate a new bellhousing bolt pattern using new aluminum following the pattern on the jig.
The Jig should allow you to proceed with all options depending on how much work you want to do, or how many transmissions you want to take out of commission
4- prepare the surfaces and weld the case to the bell pattern. Preparation is pretty standard, some casting gussets line up, and some don't. I worked my way around the housing and ground down those that were unneeded, and put a 45 degree on all the others for better weld penetration. Here are a few pics after prep-
Notice that the central spines on the bottom of the housings actually nearly line up despite the off angle of the W201 housing design-
Some after welding pics. I had it welded on both the inside and outside-
You really only have one large gap on the top of the housing. This was resolved by adding a small piece of 1/4 inch aluminum and welding it in-
5- Verify the level of square you have achieved and the roundess of the bearing bores. There is no greater time than now when the housing is broken down to make sure how off the weld is if at all, and of all your tolerances. Its worth it in the long run. More than likely such a long weld will have warped the casting slightly and it will need to be fly cut to match the level of the back of the case again. Also, the welding may have affected the level of roundness of the input and countershaft bores. Both the flycutting and verifying the roundness of the bores are pretty simple machine shop tasks.
6- Modify the input shafts (if you decide on this route) In order to do this, you will need to measure the length of the 240 shaft over the 190 and make sure that this is maintained during the swap. You will need to cut the end off of the 240 and weld it onto the 190. Both shafts are hardened on the outside only. A comparison shot-
notice the general large difference between the two. I chose to make my length measurements off the end of the taper on the bearing side of the shafts-
After cutting the shafts-
The machine shop cut the shafts, drilled down the center point and threaded the 190 bearing side and the 240 spline side. pic-
I had the shaft checked for balanced after cutting, and a 45 cut into it for better weld penetration.
before and after welding-
7- Check the input shaft for true. After the welding its worth taking it back and having it cut down and rechecked for true and balance by the machinist. Again, there is no better time than while you have it apart.
8- Reassemble the transmission. The 5-speed should go back together fairly easily. Here are a few exploded views courtesy of Charmalu. (further directions on this procedure below)-
9- Swap output shaft flanges. This is as simple as just substituting the 240 part for the 190 part during reassembly.
10- You're done with the actual transmission mod. Later in the thread I discuss what is needed as far as linkage and shifter needs based on eventual application. some completed project pics-
Done! you now have a 5-speed transmission that will bolt to your OM617 or OM616. With your sourced linkage rods and shifter, you will now be faced with the standard need to modify driveshaft, linkages, and transmission mounting options, same as a 4-speed swap. Further vehicle mounting information can be found later in the thread as well as more comprehensive info on taking the 5-speed apart.
This project has been tested for 10,000 plus miles of service on a 616 motor and proven reliable. So far, it has not been tested in a turbo application, but that conversion is still in the pipeline.
Post 15 is also where I am stashing part numbers needed for the swap(s) depending on application.
This is condensed how to version of this thread- http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/617-...t-323.html.
The goal of that project was to build a working overdrive transmission constructed out of readily available and reasonably priced MB parts available in North America that bolted to a 617 or 616 diesel engine. Ultimately, this was to address the general top speed and fuel economy limitations that the typical 123 cars have with a 1-1 transmission ratio. In short, I wanted to drive faster and use less fuel doing it.
A little introduction-
If you live in North America, it is next to impossible to get your hands on a stock overdrive transmission for the 617 turbo and 616 NA in the W123 and W126 chassis, even though they do exist. Choices are limited to ordering from overseas or hunting for very rare parts if you want to find something from MB.
However, Mercedes DID offer their smaller W201 sedans with 5-speeds of various types for sale in the same region, and parts and spares for those models, while not thick on the ground, are fairly easy to find.
The problem is also complicated by the transmission orientation in Mercedes sedans, most using linkage arms with the transmission considerably further forward in the tunnel and further from the shifter than domestic or Asian models. Its fairly simple to move the engine out of the car and mount it to a domestic or Asian gearbox in another application, but those transmissions are more complex to fit in the designed orientation of an existing Mercedes. This can be done, and done extremely well as many have demonstrated, but the hope of the method described in this thread was that it can be relatively simple and not require too much work or excessive cost. If you want to keep your car and gear it up faster or for fuel economy, you're choices are limited to waiting for a lucky break, or building something custom.
Following is a hopefully clear description of how to adapt a W201 tranny that may have been bolted to the 190E or D 1.8, 2.0, 2.3, 2.6, 2.5-16 gas engines, or the 2.2D, 2.5D diesel engines if they all share the same bell pattern, to an OM616 or OM617 application. Surprisingly, given the right skills and resources needed, its actually an easy and simple procedure provided you get a look at the input shaft cover plate on the 5-speed. (ill come to that later). I was able to swap using two cast aluminum housings that shared cover plate features, so I can only assert that its possible with some cast housing models until a greater body of data on the matter has been collected.
For this project, I used a 1984 190E 5-speed, 717.411 designation, and a 1981 240D 4-speed with the designation 716.210. Other potential 190 tranny types that should work are 717.412 and 717.410 designations. When sourcing the 5-speed, make certain that you also grab the shifter and linkage rods for that tranny. The linkage rods can be sourced from the classic center, but the shifter is an assembly of numerous parts, some of which are probably NLA at this point. Without the matching 5-speed shifter, all the work on the tranny is irrelevant.
Most importantly, what makes this swap possible is that the 240 and 190 input shaft cover plates of certain models share the same bolt patterns and distance from the bell housing bolt pattern. This means that certain 4 and 5 speed gearboxes out of different chassis start at the same depth inside the bell and possess identical bolt patterns at that depth. Using a jig constructed to maintain these relationships, it becomes straightforward to swap the ends of the bells.
The important thing to look for is the 6-bolt cover plate inside the 5-speed bell that is the same as the ones below. If its built with one of those, you're in business.
There are three fundamental deal breaking differences between the W201 chassis trannys and W123/W126 chassis trannys.
1- The bell housing bolt pattern
You will have to swap the first 3 inches of the bell with a OM61x pattern. You will need-
A- a welder who can weld cast aluminum
B- To construct a jig for bell welding
2- The input shaft length and spline pattern
This is actually an optional modification depending on how far you want to go. It also depends on whether you are fully sacrificing a 4-speed, or just using it as a bolt pattern template, then putting it back together. If you pull of the front cover of the 4-speed, you should be able to duplicate the plate pattern without disassembling the gearbox. The input shafts share the same pilot bearing part number, but the 190 is shorter and has twice the splines. If you make this change and swap the ends of the input shafts to a OM61x spec part, you will need-
A- An OM61x input shaft out of a 4-speed
B- a machinist who can cut and prepare the shafts
C- A welder who can do the welding
advantages to doing it- you have a transmission in the end that should bolt right in using all stock OM61x clutch parts and present no external swap problems. You will not have to adapt a costly 190 clutch to the OM61x application and deal with a potential input shaft length problem.
disadvantages to doing it- You are creating a potential weak point, however remote, in a surface hardened component, and you are adding some front end cost and machine work which may cost about the same as a 190 clutch. One of the goals on the thread is to ultimately explore both options on different vehicles.
3- The output shaft flange
Easy, I found that the splines for the output flange were identical for both models on the manual transmissions, as well as the important characteristics of the flange. Just swap them and the W123/W126 drive shaft should match.
here are some comparison shots of the 4 and 5 speeds. Notice the input shaft cover plates on both inside the bell. The 5 speed is longer, and the overdrive is located within its own separate compartment from the rest of the gearing on the end of the box.
Heres a closer shot of the input shaft plates with both transmissions broken down. The 190 has an additional fluid provision above the input shaft bore as it uses tapered roller bearing rather than standard bearings-
heres an even clearer comparison, the left side is the 190, the right side the 240-
Procedure-
1- break both gearboxes down fully, or remove the cover plate from the 4-speed and fully break down the 5-speed. (Directions below). The purpose here is to make a bell housing jig. Part of the reason you want to completely break down the 5-speed is that it is way easier to handle for welding, and you can inspect and rebuild at the same time. No sense in going to all this trouble and not regasketing, resealing, or installing needed parts in the donor tranny. The case alone is fairly light and easy to handle. You want to make a jig that duplicates the positioning of the 240 bolt positions, so start with that gearbox for duplicating the pattern. For the jig featured below, I completely took apart the 4-speed, it simplified building the jig. If the 4-speed were to remain together, you would have to add some large holes in the small plate discussed below for the input and countershaft.
Once broken down, its super easy. make a small plate and bolt it to the inner bolt pattern and make a large plate with a large hole in it about a foot in diameter and bolt it to the outer bolt pattern. Weld the two together securely using some angle iron or another stiff steel part. Unbolt. Here is a pic of the jig I constructed-
2- cut the bell housings, I measured back 3 inches from the pattern on both bells, and used a standard hacksaw to make the cut. This is a pic showing both 3 inch thick end pieces. Its important to note that the doner 3 inches came from a bad 4-speed transmission which was completely sacrificed for this project. You should just as easily be able to use 3 inches from a bad auto tranny bell as well-
3- fit the 240 pattern and the 190 case to your jig. The most important thing here is that both pieces do not touch, but are close. If they touch, you might throw off the angle of the jig and cause major problems much later. Its worth grinding down and settling for a larger gap over the possibility of off square-
here is a pic of the 240 pattern being fitted-
This is a pic of bolting the 190 case to the jig after. The purpose of the large hole is so that you can access these bolt locations-
Once the jig is complete built off of the 4-speed, you have several options based on level of difficulty.
Option 1 is to sacrifice the 4-speed tranny and cut it apart to make your OM61x 5-speed. I followed this route since my donor 4-speed was damaged anyway. Loss, one fairly rare 4-speed, but you gain the input shaft mod unless you can source the input shaft itself from someplace like the classic center which is certainly possible. The price on the input shaft alone is in the nature of 500 dollars, which was a dealbreaker for me.
Option 2 is to reassemble the 4-speed, find a busted automatic from a OM61x and cut the bell housing off of that like mentioned above. Loss- one common automatic
Option 3 is to completely fabricate a new bellhousing bolt pattern using new aluminum following the pattern on the jig.
The Jig should allow you to proceed with all options depending on how much work you want to do, or how many transmissions you want to take out of commission
4- prepare the surfaces and weld the case to the bell pattern. Preparation is pretty standard, some casting gussets line up, and some don't. I worked my way around the housing and ground down those that were unneeded, and put a 45 degree on all the others for better weld penetration. Here are a few pics after prep-
Notice that the central spines on the bottom of the housings actually nearly line up despite the off angle of the W201 housing design-
Some after welding pics. I had it welded on both the inside and outside-
You really only have one large gap on the top of the housing. This was resolved by adding a small piece of 1/4 inch aluminum and welding it in-
5- Verify the level of square you have achieved and the roundess of the bearing bores. There is no greater time than now when the housing is broken down to make sure how off the weld is if at all, and of all your tolerances. Its worth it in the long run. More than likely such a long weld will have warped the casting slightly and it will need to be fly cut to match the level of the back of the case again. Also, the welding may have affected the level of roundness of the input and countershaft bores. Both the flycutting and verifying the roundness of the bores are pretty simple machine shop tasks.
6- Modify the input shafts (if you decide on this route) In order to do this, you will need to measure the length of the 240 shaft over the 190 and make sure that this is maintained during the swap. You will need to cut the end off of the 240 and weld it onto the 190. Both shafts are hardened on the outside only. A comparison shot-
notice the general large difference between the two. I chose to make my length measurements off the end of the taper on the bearing side of the shafts-
After cutting the shafts-
The machine shop cut the shafts, drilled down the center point and threaded the 190 bearing side and the 240 spline side. pic-
I had the shaft checked for balanced after cutting, and a 45 cut into it for better weld penetration.
before and after welding-
7- Check the input shaft for true. After the welding its worth taking it back and having it cut down and rechecked for true and balance by the machinist. Again, there is no better time than while you have it apart.
8- Reassemble the transmission. The 5-speed should go back together fairly easily. Here are a few exploded views courtesy of Charmalu. (further directions on this procedure below)-
9- Swap output shaft flanges. This is as simple as just substituting the 240 part for the 190 part during reassembly.
10- You're done with the actual transmission mod. Later in the thread I discuss what is needed as far as linkage and shifter needs based on eventual application. some completed project pics-
Done! you now have a 5-speed transmission that will bolt to your OM617 or OM616. With your sourced linkage rods and shifter, you will now be faced with the standard need to modify driveshaft, linkages, and transmission mounting options, same as a 4-speed swap. Further vehicle mounting information can be found later in the thread as well as more comprehensive info on taking the 5-speed apart.
I'm curious to know why you chose to splice input shafts instead of swapping or custom making a clutch disk to fit the donor spline.
Though you're applying this to a manual gearbox, it would follow that someone could try this on a later model overdrive automatic too.
Great writeup too!
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
This is awesome. I've been following your franken-thread and wondered why you didn't try this first.
I'm curious to know why you chose to splice input shafts instead of swapping or custom making a clutch disk to fit the donor spline.
Though you're applying this to a manual gearbox, it would follow that someone could try this on a later model overdrive automatic too.
Great writeup too!
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(12-19-2009, 11:44 AM)Syncro_G ...it would follow that someone could try this on a later model overdrive automatic too.
..
This has been my thoughts also. One day!
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
12-19-2009, 12:42 PM #3Great job. Thanks for doing this and leading the way. This is milestone achievement!
(12-19-2009, 11:44 AM)Syncro_G ...it would follow that someone could try this on a later model overdrive automatic too.
..
This has been my thoughts also. One day!
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
(12-19-2009, 11:44 AM)Syncro_G This is awesome. I've been following your franken-thread and wondered why you didn't try this first.
I'm curious to know why you chose to splice input shafts instead of swapping or custom making a clutch disk to fit the donor spline.
Thanks everyone! I didn't try this first because I thought the other method would be easier, more elegant, and cheaper. So much for that. My rationale was that it would be great if I could do this swap and not play with the angles of the casting, apart from modifying the reverse gear shaft, which would not be constantly in use at high RPM, so a little more tolerant of not being totally straight. Ultimately this was not the correct direction because the castings are actually slightly different lengths in the rear part of the case. I failed to triple check this crucial measurement before modifying the case.
For the second question, my goal was to make all the modifications I needed within the one component of the drive train so that all replacement parts to the clutch and elsewhere would be easy to find and completely stock. This decision was also reinforced by the huge price difference between the 240D clutch disc and the 190E clutch disc. I wanted to solve all the surprises on the front end so that when the time came to install the gearbox, it was just a matter of assembling straight forward stock parts and methods. Should make it a lot easier down the line on repairs.
I think it may work either way just as well, given the identical pilot bearings. I intend to explore the second unmodified input shaft option on my turbo wagon, as there appear to be more clutch options for performance for the W201 series vehicles.
(12-19-2009, 11:44 AM)Syncro_G This is awesome. I've been following your franken-thread and wondered why you didn't try this first.
I'm curious to know why you chose to splice input shafts instead of swapping or custom making a clutch disk to fit the donor spline.
Thanks everyone! I didn't try this first because I thought the other method would be easier, more elegant, and cheaper. So much for that. My rationale was that it would be great if I could do this swap and not play with the angles of the casting, apart from modifying the reverse gear shaft, which would not be constantly in use at high RPM, so a little more tolerant of not being totally straight. Ultimately this was not the correct direction because the castings are actually slightly different lengths in the rear part of the case. I failed to triple check this crucial measurement before modifying the case.
For the second question, my goal was to make all the modifications I needed within the one component of the drive train so that all replacement parts to the clutch and elsewhere would be easy to find and completely stock. This decision was also reinforced by the huge price difference between the 240D clutch disc and the 190E clutch disc. I wanted to solve all the surprises on the front end so that when the time came to install the gearbox, it was just a matter of assembling straight forward stock parts and methods. Should make it a lot easier down the line on repairs.
I think it may work either way just as well, given the identical pilot bearings. I intend to explore the second unmodified input shaft option on my turbo wagon, as there appear to be more clutch options for performance for the W201 series vehicles.
Part 2 of this thread- How to disassemble the 717.411 and similar tranny. Looking above, the exploded view makes it look far more complex than it really is. The whole thing can be broken down in 20 or so minutes as larger assemblies.
heres a step by step process, couple of things, you will have to forgive the position of the reverse/5th lever, its facing 180 degrees in the wrong direction, and a few tiny parts are missing from some of the pictures based on what photos I was using. In places, relevant pictures may be further on in the thread, and I should have a note saying so. If not, please let me know. Also, the tranny featured in these pictures had already been apart before and cleaned, things on yours may be stuck together and will require some persuasion to come apart, especially with paper or or other gasket material between the parts.
1. Find a table with a hole, or cut a hole in a cardboard box for the tranny to sit flat, this will really simplify working on it. A pair of 2x4s on a table will also work just as well. IMPORTANT- remember to drain the tranny beforehand and make sure both drain and fill plugs are removable. The tranny only holds about 2 quarts of ATF, but can make a surprisingly large mess. It also may be incorrectly filled with gear oil which you can remedy on reassembly-
2. Remove the output shaft flange. Off the top of my head, I can't remember the size of the socket, but you will need to take a punch and move the little tab back in order to rotate the nut.
This is the one part of disassembly where you will need to either use an impact gun, or a large breaker bar. With an impact gun, it should be straight forward, but in order to remove the nut with a breaker bar, you will need to prevent the shaft from turning, which is easier said than done with the amount of force you may have to put on it.
The method I used was I bolted the tranny to my work table through the bell bolt pattern so it was immobile, then I used a socket that wedged between one ear of the flange and the thickest part of the casting that supports the mount. A socket was perfect for this as the open end cupped the ear of the flange, and the closed end sat flat on the casting. Then I used a 5 foot breaker bar and applied even pressure. The flange then should be removable.
After the nut has been removed, you can rotate the flange and give it a few whacks with a dead blow on the back of the ears to loosen it up. It should slide off the spline at that point. Worst case scenario you may need to use a slide hammer attached to the flange to pull it off-
3. Remove the overdrive shift mechanism bolts on either side of the tranny, and all the long bolts holding everything down. For this you will need a 10mm and 13mm socket-
Overdrive pegs on either side of the housing-
Removal-
4. Tap the rear cover off. As you remove the cover, the speedometer gear will rotate off of the gear on the output shaft. Re installation will be a little trickier to avoid damaging this plastic gear but it should rotate back on without issue-
5. Remove the snap ring and Rotate and remove the internal overdrive shift lever and partial syncho. (step 6 can be done first if easier, you can go either way) You can play with the orientation of the reverse/5th gear lever to make this easier to remove. It will slide up and off the actual gearing. The actual gear will slide right off the spline afterwords. make sure to put them back together in exactly the same way immediately including any shims involved, especially the thrust washer located behind the overdrive gear. A zip tie works great to hold it all together if you need it-
6. Remove the speedo plastic gear and related shims. This is also directional, so its important to store in in such a way to remember the direction-
7. Remove the reverse idler gear shaft anchor bolt from the side of the tranny under the middle shift lever. this is a 13mm bolt. You can loosen the center shift lever a little to get it out of the way of a socket if needed.
loosened shift lever-
Easy access to the bolt for removal-
8. Take your dead blow and tap off the intermediate plate of the transmission. You can leave the reverse/5th gear lever in place, and do not have to muck about with the detent interlock mechanism of those gears-
A pic from the back side showing how that gear works-
Looking down into the case after this point-
9. Loosen and remove pegs on both side for syncro/shift forks for the first 4 gears. The shift levers are one side of the peg system, and on the opposite side are similar pegs to the overdrive-
removal. The pegs can be a real pain to work out and may need some whacks with a punch to get them to rotate. After that, you may be able to rotate them back and forth with a pair of pliers. This is a part also available from the classic center for a few bucks. I accidentally destroyed one of them removing it at first-
10. Remove the output shaft assembly. The output will break apart from the input right at the 4th gear location- After disconnecting the the pegs that hold the shift mechanism, the whole thing should wiggle out fairly easily past the countershaft-
11. Loosen and remove the detent interlock aluminum ball mechanism. Two 10mm bolts, no need to remove the spring and lever part of this mechanism-
10mm bolts on the left, not the 13mm nut on the right-
12. Remove the 4th gear partial synchro mechanism + shifting fork. The actual friction part of the synchro on the input side may pull off the input shaft, make sure you put this back on in the right direction after step 13, it has a spring wire that will hold it-
13. Remove the countershaft. You may have to move the 4th gear synchro, put it should pull out painlessly-
14. Remove the input shaft. It will pull straight out-
You are almost done. Check the mobility of the roller bearing races. Now you can flip the tranny case over and remove the input shaft cover plate and shims if the bearing race is stuck, if not remove the bearing race from the inside and remove the shims behind it. If the roller bearing races are stuck in the bores without a sliding tolerance, as they may be after years of service, you will want to tap them out and put them aside-
looking down at the races and input cover plate from the inside-
This part of the detent interlock mechanism does not need to be removed to remove the gears, but you should remove it for the welding and machining process. Its a good idea to tape the spring and lever together in the orientation that is correct before putting it aside-
Everything in a box. You have just reduced the weight of the case by a good 80 percent. Much easier to work with for welding-
If i were to construct the jig with the 4-speed cover plate removed as discussed above, here is a pic of what you would be looking at to make a plate-
Part 2 of this thread- How to disassemble the 717.411 and similar tranny. Looking above, the exploded view makes it look far more complex than it really is. The whole thing can be broken down in 20 or so minutes as larger assemblies.
heres a step by step process, couple of things, you will have to forgive the position of the reverse/5th lever, its facing 180 degrees in the wrong direction, and a few tiny parts are missing from some of the pictures based on what photos I was using. In places, relevant pictures may be further on in the thread, and I should have a note saying so. If not, please let me know. Also, the tranny featured in these pictures had already been apart before and cleaned, things on yours may be stuck together and will require some persuasion to come apart, especially with paper or or other gasket material between the parts.
1. Find a table with a hole, or cut a hole in a cardboard box for the tranny to sit flat, this will really simplify working on it. A pair of 2x4s on a table will also work just as well. IMPORTANT- remember to drain the tranny beforehand and make sure both drain and fill plugs are removable. The tranny only holds about 2 quarts of ATF, but can make a surprisingly large mess. It also may be incorrectly filled with gear oil which you can remedy on reassembly-
2. Remove the output shaft flange. Off the top of my head, I can't remember the size of the socket, but you will need to take a punch and move the little tab back in order to rotate the nut.
This is the one part of disassembly where you will need to either use an impact gun, or a large breaker bar. With an impact gun, it should be straight forward, but in order to remove the nut with a breaker bar, you will need to prevent the shaft from turning, which is easier said than done with the amount of force you may have to put on it.
The method I used was I bolted the tranny to my work table through the bell bolt pattern so it was immobile, then I used a socket that wedged between one ear of the flange and the thickest part of the casting that supports the mount. A socket was perfect for this as the open end cupped the ear of the flange, and the closed end sat flat on the casting. Then I used a 5 foot breaker bar and applied even pressure. The flange then should be removable.
After the nut has been removed, you can rotate the flange and give it a few whacks with a dead blow on the back of the ears to loosen it up. It should slide off the spline at that point. Worst case scenario you may need to use a slide hammer attached to the flange to pull it off-
3. Remove the overdrive shift mechanism bolts on either side of the tranny, and all the long bolts holding everything down. For this you will need a 10mm and 13mm socket-
Overdrive pegs on either side of the housing-
Removal-
4. Tap the rear cover off. As you remove the cover, the speedometer gear will rotate off of the gear on the output shaft. Re installation will be a little trickier to avoid damaging this plastic gear but it should rotate back on without issue-
5. Remove the snap ring and Rotate and remove the internal overdrive shift lever and partial syncho. (step 6 can be done first if easier, you can go either way) You can play with the orientation of the reverse/5th gear lever to make this easier to remove. It will slide up and off the actual gearing. The actual gear will slide right off the spline afterwords. make sure to put them back together in exactly the same way immediately including any shims involved, especially the thrust washer located behind the overdrive gear. A zip tie works great to hold it all together if you need it-
6. Remove the speedo plastic gear and related shims. This is also directional, so its important to store in in such a way to remember the direction-
7. Remove the reverse idler gear shaft anchor bolt from the side of the tranny under the middle shift lever. this is a 13mm bolt. You can loosen the center shift lever a little to get it out of the way of a socket if needed.
loosened shift lever-
Easy access to the bolt for removal-
8. Take your dead blow and tap off the intermediate plate of the transmission. You can leave the reverse/5th gear lever in place, and do not have to muck about with the detent interlock mechanism of those gears-
A pic from the back side showing how that gear works-
Looking down into the case after this point-
9. Loosen and remove pegs on both side for syncro/shift forks for the first 4 gears. The shift levers are one side of the peg system, and on the opposite side are similar pegs to the overdrive-
removal. The pegs can be a real pain to work out and may need some whacks with a punch to get them to rotate. After that, you may be able to rotate them back and forth with a pair of pliers. This is a part also available from the classic center for a few bucks. I accidentally destroyed one of them removing it at first-
10. Remove the output shaft assembly. The output will break apart from the input right at the 4th gear location- After disconnecting the the pegs that hold the shift mechanism, the whole thing should wiggle out fairly easily past the countershaft-
11. Loosen and remove the detent interlock aluminum ball mechanism. Two 10mm bolts, no need to remove the spring and lever part of this mechanism-
10mm bolts on the left, not the 13mm nut on the right-
12. Remove the 4th gear partial synchro mechanism + shifting fork. The actual friction part of the synchro on the input side may pull off the input shaft, make sure you put this back on in the right direction after step 13, it has a spring wire that will hold it-
13. Remove the countershaft. You may have to move the 4th gear synchro, put it should pull out painlessly-
14. Remove the input shaft. It will pull straight out-
You are almost done. Check the mobility of the roller bearing races. Now you can flip the tranny case over and remove the input shaft cover plate and shims if the bearing race is stuck, if not remove the bearing race from the inside and remove the shims behind it. If the roller bearing races are stuck in the bores without a sliding tolerance, as they may be after years of service, you will want to tap them out and put them aside-
looking down at the races and input cover plate from the inside-
This part of the detent interlock mechanism does not need to be removed to remove the gears, but you should remove it for the welding and machining process. Its a good idea to tape the spring and lever together in the orientation that is correct before putting it aside-
Everything in a box. You have just reduced the weight of the case by a good 80 percent. Much easier to work with for welding-
I was wondering.. How much longer is the w123/w126 shaft? Wouldnt it be possible to use the longest shaft (or maybe a third type input shaft) and use the "gap" between the bellhousing and the engine to fabricate a simple "adapter" piece for the bolt pattern? Or would this move the mount points to far back?
/Jan
jankjerbye
01-31-2010, 09:47 AM #6Great work so far..
I was wondering.. How much longer is the w123/w126 shaft? Wouldnt it be possible to use the longest shaft (or maybe a third type input shaft) and use the "gap" between the bellhousing and the engine to fabricate a simple "adapter" piece for the bolt pattern? Or would this move the mount points to far back?
/Jan
(01-31-2010, 09:47 AM)jankjerbye Great work so far..
I was wondering.. How much longer is the w123/w126 shaft? Wouldnt it be possible to use the longest shaft (or maybe a third type input shaft) and use the "gap" between the bellhousing and the engine to fabricate a simple "adapter" piece for the bolt pattern? Or would this move the mount points to far back?
/Jan
not sure of the length difference, Ill post back with that at some point unless someone has that info on hand. I think you would have plenty of room for a plate of some kind and could just alter the shaft to length.
some people have done it, some pics from over on peachparts-
Supposedly from a company over in your neck of the woods for older gas engines. A link to the thread- http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/show...p?t=246508
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(01-31-2010, 09:47 AM)jankjerbye Great work so far..
I was wondering.. How much longer is the w123/w126 shaft? Wouldnt it be possible to use the longest shaft (or maybe a third type input shaft) and use the "gap" between the bellhousing and the engine to fabricate a simple "adapter" piece for the bolt pattern? Or would this move the mount points to far back?
/Jan
not sure of the length difference, Ill post back with that at some point unless someone has that info on hand. I think you would have plenty of room for a plate of some kind and could just alter the shaft to length.
some people have done it, some pics from over on peachparts-
Supposedly from a company over in your neck of the woods for older gas engines. A link to the thread- http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/show...p?t=246508
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
First, before reassembly and after welding, its worth checking the input and countershaft bores to make sure they are still completely round. If they do not slide, take the case down to a machine shop and have the bores lightly chased for a sliding fit on the bearing races, then have the bell bolt pattern level verified and possibly fly cut to match the rear bolt pattern.
The heat of welding slightly rippled the bolt pattern on the transmission in these photos, and it was almost 100 thousandths off in a few places. The fly cut brought the bell surface to under 5 thousandths out, flatter than the stock tolerances.
Endplay for the countershaft and input/output shafts has already been shimmed correctly, so you really just need to put everything back together the right way. If you ended up replacing a bearing, you may have to adjust this using the shims under the input shaft cover plate.
There seems to be absolutely no endplay on both shaft assemblies. The endplay for the input/output shaft assembly can be checked and shimmed from the front, while the countershaft endplay is slightly more complicated in that you can check it from inside the overdrive partition on the back of the transmission, but its shimmed from the front as well.
I also used the period of time while the transmission was apart after welding to replace the input and output seals, side shift lever seals, and overdrive peg O-rings. All of these components were included in the rebuild kit available from the classic center. All gaskets went in with reassembly.
Couple of pics of the seal replacements- really easy to do this broken down-
Heres another step by step process of how I put it back together-
First pic, tools to do the job. One of the really nice things about this transmission is that it requires no special tools of any kind, and has only 1 snap ring, unlike the 4 speed!
You will need-
13mm socket
10mm socket
Soft mallet of some kind
snap ring pliers
a screwdriver
a pair of pliers
three (3) bottles of wine
I used Ultra grey silicone
large deep well socket for output flange nut
allen key for shift levers
1. Bolt the input shaft cover plate, but don't tighten it yet, allow it to wiggle. You can see here there are a number of shims that go between the plate and the bearing races, these can be dropped in from the opposite side, then you can rotate the bearing race in so it seats in the cover plate, then tighten the plate down. This way the plate will be centered before bolting. The bearing races are thicker than the casting, and are partially sunk into the plate-
2. Drop the input shaft in
3. If you left the detent fork mechanism in from earlier, disregard this, but if you removed it, install it now. Make sure that the spring is facing the correct way, curved side points up-
4. Install the countershaft. This will require you to lift the input shaft up slightly, and bring them both down together to seat properly. Again, just like in disassembly, the piece of the 4th gear synchro might pop out, make sure to put it back in before step 5.
5. Intall the 4th gear synchro assembly. Make sure that the spring mechanism of the detent interlock is correctly seated tentatively with the corresponding feature on the shift lever.
making sure of the seating-
6. Install the first set of anchors for the shift mechanism, the longest external shift lever, and the corresponding peg on the opposite side. Your rebuild kit should have a gasket for the peg.
7. Install the aluminum ball detent mechanism. This will have a gasket as well, and make sure it lines up properly with the features inside the housing. Triangle points up-
8. Now comes a tricky part, you will need to pull back the spring portion of the detent mechanism as you install the output shaft cluster. Once the output shaft is seated, and the spring is started a little, you can push down on the internal shift lever and pop it into place. The spring will put enough force on the output shaft to twist it in the housing a little-
9. Install the 2nd external shift lever and corresponding peg. There will be a gasket for this peg also in your kit. You will need to use your screwdriver to push the internal lever down in order to thread the bolt for the external lever-
10. At this point you should have your 4 forward gears, make sure everything is working so far and cycle both external shift levers up and down to make sure there are no hangups.
Next move the first external shift lever towards the bell housing. This will lock the connecting fork of the detent interlock mechanism into place, and make it easier to attach the next piece of the transmission-
detent fork locked-
11. Install the intermediate plate of the transmission, which should include your reverse idler gear, shaft, detent interlock mechanism, and external shift fork as an assembly. The fork poking up out of the case will fit over a white plastic peg on the intermediate plate mechanism.
Move the revers/overdrive external shift lever to neutral, and it will line up with the locked shift fork.
Use a screwdriver to make sure the fork is lining up properly, and tap the plate down using your mallet once everything is lined up.
Moving lever to neutral-
Gasketed ready for the plate-
Making sure the fork lines up properly. There is a little play, and you want it to correctly seat.
tapping down the plate-
12. Run your reverse idler shaft anchor bolt in to see if it threads properly, thread it a few turns, but don't tighten it down yet-
13. Install the needle bearing cage for the overdrive gear and thrust washer to separate the overdrive gear from the case-
Installing the thrust washer-
(pic space not available because this is a late edit, im working on this, continue down to the bottom of the thread where the pic will be posted)
Installing the bearing cage-
14. install the overdrive gear-
15. Install the center of the overdrive synchro-
16. Install the rest of the mechanism. There are two springs on this arm. One spring that hooks onto the base of the lever and pushes against the housing, and a second spring that holds a small steel lockout in place. Make sure that the shift fork is in the right direction as in the picture below. If it somehow got flipped upside down, you will be able to completely reassemble everything, but wont be able to get it into 5th.
Correct orientation of the shift fork-
Spring related to lever-
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Part 3 of this thread- How to reassemble the 717.411 or similar after taking it apart to weld.
First, before reassembly and after welding, its worth checking the input and countershaft bores to make sure they are still completely round. If they do not slide, take the case down to a machine shop and have the bores lightly chased for a sliding fit on the bearing races, then have the bell bolt pattern level verified and possibly fly cut to match the rear bolt pattern.
The heat of welding slightly rippled the bolt pattern on the transmission in these photos, and it was almost 100 thousandths off in a few places. The fly cut brought the bell surface to under 5 thousandths out, flatter than the stock tolerances.
Endplay for the countershaft and input/output shafts has already been shimmed correctly, so you really just need to put everything back together the right way. If you ended up replacing a bearing, you may have to adjust this using the shims under the input shaft cover plate.
There seems to be absolutely no endplay on both shaft assemblies. The endplay for the input/output shaft assembly can be checked and shimmed from the front, while the countershaft endplay is slightly more complicated in that you can check it from inside the overdrive partition on the back of the transmission, but its shimmed from the front as well.
I also used the period of time while the transmission was apart after welding to replace the input and output seals, side shift lever seals, and overdrive peg O-rings. All of these components were included in the rebuild kit available from the classic center. All gaskets went in with reassembly.
Couple of pics of the seal replacements- really easy to do this broken down-
Heres another step by step process of how I put it back together-
First pic, tools to do the job. One of the really nice things about this transmission is that it requires no special tools of any kind, and has only 1 snap ring, unlike the 4 speed!
You will need-
13mm socket
10mm socket
Soft mallet of some kind
snap ring pliers
a screwdriver
a pair of pliers
three (3) bottles of wine
I used Ultra grey silicone
large deep well socket for output flange nut
allen key for shift levers
1. Bolt the input shaft cover plate, but don't tighten it yet, allow it to wiggle. You can see here there are a number of shims that go between the plate and the bearing races, these can be dropped in from the opposite side, then you can rotate the bearing race in so it seats in the cover plate, then tighten the plate down. This way the plate will be centered before bolting. The bearing races are thicker than the casting, and are partially sunk into the plate-
2. Drop the input shaft in
3. If you left the detent fork mechanism in from earlier, disregard this, but if you removed it, install it now. Make sure that the spring is facing the correct way, curved side points up-
4. Install the countershaft. This will require you to lift the input shaft up slightly, and bring them both down together to seat properly. Again, just like in disassembly, the piece of the 4th gear synchro might pop out, make sure to put it back in before step 5.
5. Intall the 4th gear synchro assembly. Make sure that the spring mechanism of the detent interlock is correctly seated tentatively with the corresponding feature on the shift lever.
making sure of the seating-
6. Install the first set of anchors for the shift mechanism, the longest external shift lever, and the corresponding peg on the opposite side. Your rebuild kit should have a gasket for the peg.
7. Install the aluminum ball detent mechanism. This will have a gasket as well, and make sure it lines up properly with the features inside the housing. Triangle points up-
8. Now comes a tricky part, you will need to pull back the spring portion of the detent mechanism as you install the output shaft cluster. Once the output shaft is seated, and the spring is started a little, you can push down on the internal shift lever and pop it into place. The spring will put enough force on the output shaft to twist it in the housing a little-
9. Install the 2nd external shift lever and corresponding peg. There will be a gasket for this peg also in your kit. You will need to use your screwdriver to push the internal lever down in order to thread the bolt for the external lever-
10. At this point you should have your 4 forward gears, make sure everything is working so far and cycle both external shift levers up and down to make sure there are no hangups.
Next move the first external shift lever towards the bell housing. This will lock the connecting fork of the detent interlock mechanism into place, and make it easier to attach the next piece of the transmission-
detent fork locked-
11. Install the intermediate plate of the transmission, which should include your reverse idler gear, shaft, detent interlock mechanism, and external shift fork as an assembly. The fork poking up out of the case will fit over a white plastic peg on the intermediate plate mechanism.
Move the revers/overdrive external shift lever to neutral, and it will line up with the locked shift fork.
Use a screwdriver to make sure the fork is lining up properly, and tap the plate down using your mallet once everything is lined up.
Moving lever to neutral-
Gasketed ready for the plate-
Making sure the fork lines up properly. There is a little play, and you want it to correctly seat.
tapping down the plate-
12. Run your reverse idler shaft anchor bolt in to see if it threads properly, thread it a few turns, but don't tighten it down yet-
13. Install the needle bearing cage for the overdrive gear and thrust washer to separate the overdrive gear from the case-
Installing the thrust washer-
(pic space not available because this is a late edit, im working on this, continue down to the bottom of the thread where the pic will be posted)
Installing the bearing cage-
14. install the overdrive gear-
15. Install the center of the overdrive synchro-
16. Install the rest of the mechanism. There are two springs on this arm. One spring that hooks onto the base of the lever and pushes against the housing, and a second spring that holds a small steel lockout in place. Make sure that the shift fork is in the right direction as in the picture below. If it somehow got flipped upside down, you will be able to completely reassemble everything, but wont be able to get it into 5th.
Correct orientation of the shift fork-
Spring related to lever-
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Second spring installed on lever that controls the small lockout-
Installing shift lever into housing-
Installed, waiting for rear cover-
17. Install plastic speedometer gear and overdrive syncho snap ring, careful to remember any shims that went under the speedometer gear-
Installing snap ring-
18. Install rear cover, be careful, the speedometer gear should rotate down as you install it without a problem, but it is old plastic.
19. Use the reverse/5th lever to line up the overdrive support pegs. By pulling towards the rear of the case, the holes will line up. Install the pegs and double check the O-rings are in place properly-
Pulling to line up pegs-
Pegs installed ready to be tightened, unlike the other two pegs on this transmission, the overdrive pegs use an O-ring to seal-
20- Install and tighten down all your pattern bolts and your idler gear anchor bolt at this time.
21. Install the 240 output shaft flange-
22. Install your output shaft flange nut-
23. Install transmission drain and fill plugs, magnet on the bottom side if applicable-
24. Make sure all gears work, remember, if its dry, it won't turn as easily or shift as easily as a fluid filled case, but everything should work with relative ease.
You are done, ready for installation-
Missing pic from step #13. Make absolutely sure that you include this thrust washer and install it in the correct orientation. If it is missing, overdrive will work on the bench, but once power is put through the tranny, you will actually force the gear into the case housing and could cause damage. In other words, you won't know that there is a problem until the transmission is ready for a test drive down the line.
Thrust washer being installed, this is before the overdrive bearing race-
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Spring installed on lever-
Second spring installed on lever that controls the small lockout-
Installing shift lever into housing-
Installed, waiting for rear cover-
17. Install plastic speedometer gear and overdrive syncho snap ring, careful to remember any shims that went under the speedometer gear-
Installing snap ring-
18. Install rear cover, be careful, the speedometer gear should rotate down as you install it without a problem, but it is old plastic.
19. Use the reverse/5th lever to line up the overdrive support pegs. By pulling towards the rear of the case, the holes will line up. Install the pegs and double check the O-rings are in place properly-
Pulling to line up pegs-
Pegs installed ready to be tightened, unlike the other two pegs on this transmission, the overdrive pegs use an O-ring to seal-
20- Install and tighten down all your pattern bolts and your idler gear anchor bolt at this time.
21. Install the 240 output shaft flange-
22. Install your output shaft flange nut-
23. Install transmission drain and fill plugs, magnet on the bottom side if applicable-
24. Make sure all gears work, remember, if its dry, it won't turn as easily or shift as easily as a fluid filled case, but everything should work with relative ease.
You are done, ready for installation-
Missing pic from step #13. Make absolutely sure that you include this thrust washer and install it in the correct orientation. If it is missing, overdrive will work on the bench, but once power is put through the tranny, you will actually force the gear into the case housing and could cause damage. In other words, you won't know that there is a problem until the transmission is ready for a test drive down the line.
Thrust washer being installed, this is before the overdrive bearing race-
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(01-31-2010, 09:47 AM)jankjerbye Great work so far..
I was wondering.. How much longer is the w123/w126 shaft? Wouldnt it be possible to use the longest shaft (or maybe a third type input shaft) and use the "gap" between the bellhousing and the engine to fabricate a simple "adapter" piece for the bolt pattern? Or would this move the mount points to far back?
/Jan
I just realized that I totally misunderstood your question, I was thinking driveshafts! Sorry
the 4-speed input shaft is around 3/4 of an inch longer on the pilot bearing side than the 5-speed input shaft. I would be very interested in seeing how they resolved this issue in those pictures I posted above, but there were only external pics.
Clearly, they made it work, so it can't be that bad, but you might end up doing more work that way, cause then you would have to resolve the spacing on the flywheel/pressure plate/clutch in addition to the bolt pattern.
I would imagine that those guys must have spaced things out somehow. Easiest in my mind would be to install a spacer behind the flywheel with a ring gear fitted to it and just push the flywheel out to meet the clutch like it were stock. Maybe they came up with a way to leave the automatic driven plate on the engine, and simply bolted the flywheel over it! Looks like there would be plenty of depth to play with in that circumstance.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(01-31-2010, 09:47 AM)jankjerbye Great work so far..
I was wondering.. How much longer is the w123/w126 shaft? Wouldnt it be possible to use the longest shaft (or maybe a third type input shaft) and use the "gap" between the bellhousing and the engine to fabricate a simple "adapter" piece for the bolt pattern? Or would this move the mount points to far back?
/Jan
I just realized that I totally misunderstood your question, I was thinking driveshafts! Sorry
the 4-speed input shaft is around 3/4 of an inch longer on the pilot bearing side than the 5-speed input shaft. I would be very interested in seeing how they resolved this issue in those pictures I posted above, but there were only external pics.
Clearly, they made it work, so it can't be that bad, but you might end up doing more work that way, cause then you would have to resolve the spacing on the flywheel/pressure plate/clutch in addition to the bolt pattern.
I would imagine that those guys must have spaced things out somehow. Easiest in my mind would be to install a spacer behind the flywheel with a ring gear fitted to it and just push the flywheel out to meet the clutch like it were stock. Maybe they came up with a way to leave the automatic driven plate on the engine, and simply bolted the flywheel over it! Looks like there would be plenty of depth to play with in that circumstance.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
That was a fantastic job. If you ever decide to do another transmission modification like this again, you should consider taking the case to a foundry and have a pattern cast. You could also have new input shafts turned and cut. You could sell the cases and shafts to others wishing to do the same mod. Or, it would be easy for you to cut the case in half length wise and weld tabs along the seams to bolt the two halves together. A small blast furnace, or charcoal foundry can easily be made, and you could cast the case halves in your driveway. The halves would be drilled and alignment dowels added. A gasket would be needed to seal the case. I've torn several two stroke engines down, and they have a similar two piece configuration. There seems to be a market for your transmission. I'm an entrepreneur, and I tend to think about making money when this much work goes into a project. I'm considering having iron heads cast in Mexico for the 1.6 VW diesel. You could also have your transmission cases cast there as well. Cheers![/font][/size]
You take all the things that already exist on your car or another car, and you change or tweak them in different ways and put them together. If it were a plate, or a group of parts that could be marketed, there would be something to sell, like the jig perhaps, but casting the case and then machining it properly would probably be prohibitively expensive.
As it stands, the only thing I can really sell easily is directions for how to do it, which, as an enthusiast, simply documenting my own process for other enthusiasts to avoid pitfalls if they are interested in following this method seems like a more realistic contribution. As enthusiasts, we all like to do everything ourselves anyway.
I don't play with this car to make money, I have a real job for that, I do it because I love playing with this car.
If other people can benefit from what ive done for free, I can also benefit from what they've done as well.(working on part 4, mounting into a 123 chassis with a 616. There is a part 5 planned for mounting to a 617, but down the road a bit. I will test the 616 for a while first)
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
thanks! The problem with this method from a money making perspective as I see it is that its more of a process and assembling components vs a single thing or kit to make it work in your car.
You take all the things that already exist on your car or another car, and you change or tweak them in different ways and put them together. If it were a plate, or a group of parts that could be marketed, there would be something to sell, like the jig perhaps, but casting the case and then machining it properly would probably be prohibitively expensive.
As it stands, the only thing I can really sell easily is directions for how to do it, which, as an enthusiast, simply documenting my own process for other enthusiasts to avoid pitfalls if they are interested in following this method seems like a more realistic contribution. As enthusiasts, we all like to do everything ourselves anyway.
I don't play with this car to make money, I have a real job for that, I do it because I love playing with this car. If other people can benefit from what ive done for free, I can also benefit from what they've done as well.
(working on part 4, mounting into a 123 chassis with a 616. There is a part 5 planned for mounting to a 617, but down the road a bit. I will test the 616 for a while first)
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Ultimately, as posted above, I would like to work out what collection of parts are needed for using the W201 clutch and input shaft, but that will be a later post.
On post 15 you will find a part numbers list to perform this installation. It may be incomplete, but I will try and make it as complete as I can.
There are many similarities with the 4-speed to turbo sedan swap. If you have done one of those, mounting this transmission is not any more technically challenging, and especially to a 616, you have a LOT more room to work, so its actually a little easier to move around.
1. You will have to modify the forward drive shaft and if you used a 240 auto shaft, you will be lengthening it 4.5 inches. If its a 240 manual, you would be SHORTENING the forward shaft 1-1.5 inches. Verify the manual modification first though, I only have first hand knowledge of the auto.
pic of the modified shaft-
Modified shaft as compared to a 240 manual forward shaft-
2. The shift linkage bars will have to be LENGTHENED 1.75 inches.
bars with spacers (made from the auto linkage)-
bars with spacers welded in-
Additionally, you will be changing or modifying the trans cross member. I used the stock 240 auto member, and I welded in a piece of a 300D auto cross member to make it a little longer. The 5-speed mount point comes right in above the front edge of the auto cross member as it stands stock. I made mine about 1.5 inches longer to fit this tranny.
Some pics of that-
Shaping to fit-
Compared to an original 240 auto cross member. After this it was treated and finished with paint and rubber coating-
There are several cross chassis parts you are putting together as well. You will be using the W201 shift fork, the W123 release bearing, the W201 clutch Slave cylinder, and the W123 Master cylinder.
There are a number of other little things that I will try and cover in this post.
Procedure-
As far as installing the pedals or shifter or transmission first, thats kind of up to your personal preference. Personally, I usually start with getting the tranny in, then install the pedals and shifter. The procedure that I used follows how I ended up doing it-
1. Obviously, you will need to have a flywheel. The vehicle this transmission was installed in was originally an automatic, so I needed to source a flywheel and have it resurfaced. I installed a stock resurfaced 240 flywheel, OEM pilot bearing, OEM clutch disc, and OEM pressure plate all for a 240.
2. Install the 190 shift fork ,and the 240 release bearing inside the bell housing. The Shift forks between the 5-speed and 4-speed are slightly different in length, you want to use the one that came with the transmission just in case there is a pivot or slave issue based on this difference in length.
There is a large difference in release bearings, mainly thickness. The 240 release bearing is way thicker than the 190. some comparision pics-
All components installed in the bell. Make sure the input shaft splines, shift fork pivot point, and cover plate sliding surface are all properly lubricated-
3. Bolt the transmission up. It bolted up without issue using all the existing hardware that was originally used for the 616 to auto-
4. Install your speedometer cable. Depending on the year, the cable may not match. I had a flat wide cable end on the 1980 240 this tranny went into and I had to grind and shape the cable to fit properly.
5. Install your modified drive shaft and new flex discs. One little point I ended up dealing with here was that the flex disc bolts designed for the 616 application just barely kissed the housing of the 5-speed. I resolved this by double washering the bolts on the outside of the flex disc.
6. Install modified trans cross member bracket. I used a new 190E trans mount-
side view of modified mount-
Now that the transmission is in and secure, you can move into the cabin
7. Install the W201 5-speed shifter. The hole in the 123 chassis will work properly for the shifter assembly arms that extend into the tunnel, but the 4 bolts will not all line up. Two on the driver side will line up properly, but you will need to drill and tap two holes for the other two mounting bolts. Also, you may need to trim back a little of the insulation material for it to fit flat.
Shifter out of the car-
The W201 gasket should work properly to seal the hole in the body, the W123 gasket will not work with the 5-speed shifter, but you may be able to cut it so its just the part around the hole.
8. Install the pedals and related hydraulic lines, this is pretty much identical to the 4-speed swap. Bolted to the pedal is the W123 clutch master cylinder-
Pedals installed-
Complete hydraulic clutch system-
9. Back underneath, install the linkage bars-
diagram of how they attach properly-
couple pics of the kind of room you are dealing with on a 616 for the linkage bars. There is no risk of them rubbing. I used all new bushings on both ends and clips-
10. Install the W201 slave cylinder, and complete the hydraulic line. In these pics I used a NAPA brake like modified as the second piece of the clutch line, so there is a bit of an oddball routing underneath-
11. Reattach the exhaust system to the tranny. On the 5-speed there are two large round provisions for an exhaust bracket mounting. (in these pics, the transmission is mission one of the). The 5-speed tranny should have a bracket attached to it that can be used to hold the 240 stock exhaust with almost no modification. I have no pics of this as yet.
12. Bleed the clutch and test drive.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Part 4, mounting in a 123 chassis vehicle with a 616 4cyl. and using the welded input shaft tranny. With the welded input shaft, all clutch parts should be the same between the 616 and 617, and the clutch hydraulic system should be the same regardless of what clutch you are using.
Ultimately, as posted above, I would like to work out what collection of parts are needed for using the W201 clutch and input shaft, but that will be a later post.
On post 15 you will find a part numbers list to perform this installation. It may be incomplete, but I will try and make it as complete as I can.
There are many similarities with the 4-speed to turbo sedan swap. If you have done one of those, mounting this transmission is not any more technically challenging, and especially to a 616, you have a LOT more room to work, so its actually a little easier to move around.
1. You will have to modify the forward drive shaft and if you used a 240 auto shaft, you will be lengthening it 4.5 inches. If its a 240 manual, you would be SHORTENING the forward shaft 1-1.5 inches. Verify the manual modification first though, I only have first hand knowledge of the auto.
pic of the modified shaft-
Modified shaft as compared to a 240 manual forward shaft-
2. The shift linkage bars will have to be LENGTHENED 1.75 inches.
bars with spacers (made from the auto linkage)-
bars with spacers welded in-
Additionally, you will be changing or modifying the trans cross member. I used the stock 240 auto member, and I welded in a piece of a 300D auto cross member to make it a little longer. The 5-speed mount point comes right in above the front edge of the auto cross member as it stands stock. I made mine about 1.5 inches longer to fit this tranny.
Some pics of that-
Shaping to fit-
Compared to an original 240 auto cross member. After this it was treated and finished with paint and rubber coating-
There are several cross chassis parts you are putting together as well. You will be using the W201 shift fork, the W123 release bearing, the W201 clutch Slave cylinder, and the W123 Master cylinder.
There are a number of other little things that I will try and cover in this post.
Procedure-
As far as installing the pedals or shifter or transmission first, thats kind of up to your personal preference. Personally, I usually start with getting the tranny in, then install the pedals and shifter. The procedure that I used follows how I ended up doing it-
1. Obviously, you will need to have a flywheel. The vehicle this transmission was installed in was originally an automatic, so I needed to source a flywheel and have it resurfaced. I installed a stock resurfaced 240 flywheel, OEM pilot bearing, OEM clutch disc, and OEM pressure plate all for a 240.
2. Install the 190 shift fork ,and the 240 release bearing inside the bell housing. The Shift forks between the 5-speed and 4-speed are slightly different in length, you want to use the one that came with the transmission just in case there is a pivot or slave issue based on this difference in length.
There is a large difference in release bearings, mainly thickness. The 240 release bearing is way thicker than the 190. some comparision pics-
All components installed in the bell. Make sure the input shaft splines, shift fork pivot point, and cover plate sliding surface are all properly lubricated-
3. Bolt the transmission up. It bolted up without issue using all the existing hardware that was originally used for the 616 to auto-
4. Install your speedometer cable. Depending on the year, the cable may not match. I had a flat wide cable end on the 1980 240 this tranny went into and I had to grind and shape the cable to fit properly.
5. Install your modified drive shaft and new flex discs. One little point I ended up dealing with here was that the flex disc bolts designed for the 616 application just barely kissed the housing of the 5-speed. I resolved this by double washering the bolts on the outside of the flex disc.
6. Install modified trans cross member bracket. I used a new 190E trans mount-
side view of modified mount-
Now that the transmission is in and secure, you can move into the cabin
7. Install the W201 5-speed shifter. The hole in the 123 chassis will work properly for the shifter assembly arms that extend into the tunnel, but the 4 bolts will not all line up. Two on the driver side will line up properly, but you will need to drill and tap two holes for the other two mounting bolts. Also, you may need to trim back a little of the insulation material for it to fit flat.
Shifter out of the car-
The W201 gasket should work properly to seal the hole in the body, the W123 gasket will not work with the 5-speed shifter, but you may be able to cut it so its just the part around the hole.
8. Install the pedals and related hydraulic lines, this is pretty much identical to the 4-speed swap. Bolted to the pedal is the W123 clutch master cylinder-
Pedals installed-
Complete hydraulic clutch system-
9. Back underneath, install the linkage bars-
diagram of how they attach properly-
couple pics of the kind of room you are dealing with on a 616 for the linkage bars. There is no risk of them rubbing. I used all new bushings on both ends and clips-
10. Install the W201 slave cylinder, and complete the hydraulic line. In these pics I used a NAPA brake like modified as the second piece of the clutch line, so there is a bit of an oddball routing underneath-
11. Reattach the exhaust system to the tranny. On the 5-speed there are two large round provisions for an exhaust bracket mounting. (in these pics, the transmission is mission one of the). The 5-speed tranny should have a bracket attached to it that can be used to hold the 240 stock exhaust with almost no modification. I have no pics of this as yet.
12. Bleed the clutch and test drive.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(06-14-2010, 01:58 PM)winmutt Now comes the real question. Longevity!
agreed!
Mileage Chart-
240 with 717.411 welded input shaft-
At 3 thousand miles, will drain the fluid and see what the level of metal contaminate is.
At 10 thousand miles I will take a look at the clutch and maybe break the tranny down and see how things are looking inside.
as of 6/09/10 60 miles on transmission
-No noises or issues
as of 6/19/10 970 miles on transmission
-No noises, 4th gear synchro is worn compared to other gears, but no real issues yet. Have to be a little careful when downshifting from 5th to 4th. Not something thats changing though, will live with it for now.
as of 6/21/10 1,320 miles on transmission
-No issues. 4th synchro the same. 240 is averaging above 30 mpg combined city and highway.
as of 6/25/10 1,980 miles on transmission.
-managed to break 35 mpg today at 70-75 combination of tires and overdrive.
as of 6/28/10 2610 miles on transmission.
-No audible noises or issues
as of 6/30/10 3080 miles on transmission.
-Inspection time! No noises up to this point, and I have been beating on it pretty hard, its been an extremely busy month of driving. No flake in the ATF, things are looking healthy inside so far.
as of 7/10/10 3740 miles on transmission
-Encountered first real issue today, a stickyness that felt very much like a binding release bearing. The issue went away after about 100 miles and occurred immediately after a total radiator failure at speed, so it may be related to coolant getting on and around everything drivetrain related.
as of 7/16/10 4400 miles on transmission
-Continue to have intermittent binding on the release bearing. You can just feel it, but it really is not affecting anything at this point. Will try to push it until 10,000 mile clutch inspection. No other issues. After a while driving this 240, im starting to think a heavier flywheel might be absolutely necessary for the 300TD swap mated to a 5 speed im currently assembling. Might even be useful for the 240 as well.
With the overdrive gear, there are extended times where you are very close to lugging the motor on grades where you are just going fast enough to not justify down shifting, but are still low in the overdrive range. I forsee this as a potential vibration problem on the turbo motor.
as of 7/22/10 4980 miles on transmission
-No issues apart from what I believe is a slight worsening of the 4th gear synchro issue. Up until this point, all problems were related to downshifts from 5th to 4th, but today I had an upshift problem with 4th. It requires more care to slip into gear than I really find acceptable, so I will try and resolve this at 10,000 miles too.
as of 7/29/10 5640 miles on transmission
-no issues
as of 9/21/10 10,000 plus miles on transmission
-no issues. Not keeping close track of it mileage wise anymore, it has proven itself to me, but will post if there is now an issue. 4th gear problem is remaining at a constant and is avoidable with careful shifting. Eventually, it will be repaired with some new parts.
240 with 717.411 welded input shaft swap Parts List (incomplete)
717.411 rebuild kit (includes gaskets and O-rings, no synchros) A1242609201
Sachs clutch disc 0102502503 or 1861792235
Sachs pressure plate 0042503204 or SC297
Release bearing 0002505515
Pilot Bearing(s) 93110211100 or F801-11-303
Drive shaft mount 1234101081
Drive shaft boot 2024110497
Drive shaft bearing 0039812325
2ct flex discs 1234100015
Plastic OEM 90 degree out of master to hose A 0002950036
Linkage clips A 0000044160
Manual tranny flywheel to crank bolts 6150320571
clutch line heading out of body with integrated rubber flex hose 1232951713
OEM hose from reservoir to master cylinder 0039971252
Shifter boot 1232670097
W201 shifter mechanism reverse light switch 2015450014
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(06-14-2010, 01:58 PM)winmutt Now comes the real question. Longevity!
agreed!
Mileage Chart-
240 with 717.411 welded input shaft-
At 3 thousand miles, will drain the fluid and see what the level of metal contaminate is.
At 10 thousand miles I will take a look at the clutch and maybe break the tranny down and see how things are looking inside.
as of 6/09/10 60 miles on transmission
-No noises or issues
as of 6/19/10 970 miles on transmission
-No noises, 4th gear synchro is worn compared to other gears, but no real issues yet. Have to be a little careful when downshifting from 5th to 4th. Not something thats changing though, will live with it for now.
as of 6/21/10 1,320 miles on transmission
-No issues. 4th synchro the same. 240 is averaging above 30 mpg combined city and highway.
as of 6/25/10 1,980 miles on transmission.
-managed to break 35 mpg today at 70-75 combination of tires and overdrive.
as of 6/28/10 2610 miles on transmission.
-No audible noises or issues
as of 6/30/10 3080 miles on transmission.
-Inspection time! No noises up to this point, and I have been beating on it pretty hard, its been an extremely busy month of driving. No flake in the ATF, things are looking healthy inside so far.
as of 7/10/10 3740 miles on transmission
-Encountered first real issue today, a stickyness that felt very much like a binding release bearing. The issue went away after about 100 miles and occurred immediately after a total radiator failure at speed, so it may be related to coolant getting on and around everything drivetrain related.
as of 7/16/10 4400 miles on transmission
-Continue to have intermittent binding on the release bearing. You can just feel it, but it really is not affecting anything at this point. Will try to push it until 10,000 mile clutch inspection. No other issues. After a while driving this 240, im starting to think a heavier flywheel might be absolutely necessary for the 300TD swap mated to a 5 speed im currently assembling. Might even be useful for the 240 as well.
With the overdrive gear, there are extended times where you are very close to lugging the motor on grades where you are just going fast enough to not justify down shifting, but are still low in the overdrive range. I forsee this as a potential vibration problem on the turbo motor.
as of 7/22/10 4980 miles on transmission
-No issues apart from what I believe is a slight worsening of the 4th gear synchro issue. Up until this point, all problems were related to downshifts from 5th to 4th, but today I had an upshift problem with 4th. It requires more care to slip into gear than I really find acceptable, so I will try and resolve this at 10,000 miles too.
as of 7/29/10 5640 miles on transmission
-no issues
as of 9/21/10 10,000 plus miles on transmission
-no issues. Not keeping close track of it mileage wise anymore, it has proven itself to me, but will post if there is now an issue. 4th gear problem is remaining at a constant and is avoidable with careful shifting. Eventually, it will be repaired with some new parts.
240 with 717.411 welded input shaft swap Parts List (incomplete)
717.411 rebuild kit (includes gaskets and O-rings, no synchros) A1242609201
Sachs clutch disc 0102502503 or 1861792235
Sachs pressure plate 0042503204 or SC297
Release bearing 0002505515
Pilot Bearing(s) 93110211100 or F801-11-303
Drive shaft mount 1234101081
Drive shaft boot 2024110497
Drive shaft bearing 0039812325
2ct flex discs 1234100015
Plastic OEM 90 degree out of master to hose A 0002950036
Linkage clips A 0000044160
Manual tranny flywheel to crank bolts 6150320571
clutch line heading out of body with integrated rubber flex hose 1232951713
OEM hose from reservoir to master cylinder 0039971252
Shifter boot 1232670097
W201 shifter mechanism reverse light switch 2015450014
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
and pics after welding. Interestingly, the welder told me that the automatic bell housing cast aluminum was actually a lower quality of aluminum than the manual bell housing. He said it was clearly evident with how it reacted to welding. As a strength concern, we decided it was not going to be a problem as both qualities are plenty strong for this application, but it does present a slightly added difficulty for the welding process, and was somewhat more expensive and not as nice looking consequently.
I doubt this would be a universal issue though, but if you are swapping the auto bell and paying someone else to do the welding, its worth bearing in mind.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
here are a few pics of how an automatic bell housing lines up with a 717.412 gearbox. The 717.412 in the following photos is being converted to use the W201 clutch still, so far less steps than the 717.411 conversion was.
and pics after welding. Interestingly, the welder told me that the automatic bell housing cast aluminum was actually a lower quality of aluminum than the manual bell housing. He said it was clearly evident with how it reacted to welding. As a strength concern, we decided it was not going to be a problem as both qualities are plenty strong for this application, but it does present a slightly added difficulty for the welding process, and was somewhat more expensive and not as nice looking consequently.
I doubt this would be a universal issue though, but if you are swapping the auto bell and paying someone else to do the welding, its worth bearing in mind.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(07-04-2010, 09:08 PM)dropnosky here are a few pics of how an automatic bell housing lines up with a 717.412 gearbox.
After deliberation, on this particular swap, I decided to have the louvers from the auto closed up, I don't want it to be any easier for salt, sand, and water to get up in the bell. You can see from the existing condition of the the 717.412 that this has already been a major problem.
I have looked at the automatic bell housing wondering if it would work.
what would you use for the input shaft? you cut and welded the 240 10 spline to the 190 23 spline shaft. would you do the same or leave it?
I know you mentioned early on the simplicity of using the 240D clutch assembly compared to the 190.
It would also be less confusing later on when ordering parts
you also mentioned the 240D parts are 1/2 the cost of 190 parts.
Charlie
(07-04-2010, 09:08 PM)dropnosky here are a few pics of how an automatic bell housing lines up with a 717.412 gearbox.
After deliberation, on this particular swap, I decided to have the louvers from the auto closed up, I don't want it to be any easier for salt, sand, and water to get up in the bell. You can see from the existing condition of the the 717.412 that this has already been a major problem.
I have looked at the automatic bell housing wondering if it would work.
what would you use for the input shaft? you cut and welded the 240 10 spline to the 190 23 spline shaft. would you do the same or leave it?
I know you mentioned early on the simplicity of using the 240D clutch assembly compared to the 190.
It would also be less confusing later on when ordering parts
you also mentioned the 240D parts are 1/2 the cost of 190 parts.
Charlie
(07-05-2010, 02:18 PM)charmalu I have looked at the automatic bell housing wondering if it would work.
what would you use for the input shaft? you cut and welded the 240 10 spline to the 190 23 spline shaft. would you do the same or leave it?
I know you mentioned early on the simplicity of using the 240D clutch assembly compared to the 190.
It would also be less confusing later on when ordering parts
you also mentioned the 240D parts are 1/2 the cost of 190 parts.
Charlie
The automatic bell is not as nice a close fit to the W201 as the manual was, but it generally lines up the same way. Its got the same kind of gap up top, and some additional flanges sticking out. It does not have any of the ribbing that both the manual bells had, so none line up. They all had to be cut down on the 717.412.
On this second one, I am going to leave the input shaft alone and try and use a W201 clutch. The price difference does not seem to be as much as when I first started this line of projects. If you wanted to go OE for the disc, On Buymbparts for example, the price difference as of now is only about 73 bucks.
190D clutch- $240.29
240D clutch- $166.93
Since it cost about 120 bucks to modify the input shaft on the 717.411 conversion, depending on how that holds up, it may be a more long term savings if really any at all.
I have been able to find some clutch kits for a 190E that include the release bearing, pressure plate, and alignment tool for less than 200 bucks, and there seem to be more performance clutch options available since the EVO and other performance packages came in the W201 chassis.
On a side note, there are some extremely interesting internal differences between the 717.411 and 717.412, which Im still trying to figure out, (I have to start another thread on it, maybe someone can figure out whats going on) and unfortunately, the 717.412 intended for this project is badly damaged internally and needs a number of parts.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(07-05-2010, 02:18 PM)charmalu I have looked at the automatic bell housing wondering if it would work.
what would you use for the input shaft? you cut and welded the 240 10 spline to the 190 23 spline shaft. would you do the same or leave it?
I know you mentioned early on the simplicity of using the 240D clutch assembly compared to the 190.
It would also be less confusing later on when ordering parts
you also mentioned the 240D parts are 1/2 the cost of 190 parts.
Charlie
The automatic bell is not as nice a close fit to the W201 as the manual was, but it generally lines up the same way. Its got the same kind of gap up top, and some additional flanges sticking out. It does not have any of the ribbing that both the manual bells had, so none line up. They all had to be cut down on the 717.412.
On this second one, I am going to leave the input shaft alone and try and use a W201 clutch. The price difference does not seem to be as much as when I first started this line of projects. If you wanted to go OE for the disc, On Buymbparts for example, the price difference as of now is only about 73 bucks.
190D clutch- $240.29
240D clutch- $166.93
Since it cost about 120 bucks to modify the input shaft on the 717.411 conversion, depending on how that holds up, it may be a more long term savings if really any at all.
I have been able to find some clutch kits for a 190E that include the release bearing, pressure plate, and alignment tool for less than 200 bucks, and there seem to be more performance clutch options available since the EVO and other performance packages came in the W201 chassis.
On a side note, there are some extremely interesting internal differences between the 717.411 and 717.412, which Im still trying to figure out, (I have to start another thread on it, maybe someone can figure out whats going on) and unfortunately, the 717.412 intended for this project is badly damaged internally and needs a number of parts.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
The 717.412 conversion is still in the construction process. Unbelievably, the bell is still at the machine shop two months after I dropped it off!
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
well, the franken tranny has now exceeded 10,000 miles of service in the 616 application. I have been driving the heck out of that car, and now trust this transmission. I have a continuous and irritating 4th gear issue, but it can be avoided mostly unless Im down in NYC trying to shift really fast in traffic.
The 717.412 conversion is still in the construction process. Unbelievably, the bell is still at the machine shop two months after I dropped it off!
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
09-21-2010, 01:59 PM #20I want one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
(09-21-2010, 02:15 PM)winmutt 10k, how time flies!
I know, I can't believe it. It does not seem like I have been driving that much, but the miles are piling up. These 240s are sure durable, not that many other cars can jump from no use parked out back for years, to continuous 1000 mile weeks. I have not yet had to touch any other elements of the drivetrain apart from this swap.
(09-22-2010, 06:12 AM)stan 5 speed transmission + turbo 617 on a wagon would be so sexy
exactly what I intended to build originally.
Oh well, the MK2 franken is going into a 115(09-21-2010, 01:59 PM)Captain America I want one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just need to find a tranny, although I have had the worst luck NOT finding a damaged example recently.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(09-21-2010, 02:15 PM)winmutt 10k, how time flies!
I know, I can't believe it. It does not seem like I have been driving that much, but the miles are piling up. These 240s are sure durable, not that many other cars can jump from no use parked out back for years, to continuous 1000 mile weeks. I have not yet had to touch any other elements of the drivetrain apart from this swap.
(09-22-2010, 06:12 AM)stan 5 speed transmission + turbo 617 on a wagon would be so sexy
exactly what I intended to build originally.
Oh well, the MK2 franken is going into a 115(09-21-2010, 01:59 PM)Captain America I want one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just need to find a tranny, although I have had the worst luck NOT finding a damaged example recently.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
09-22-2010, 09:15 PM #24Yeah and there is no way I could do that work myself... I don't have a welder to start with.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
(07-05-2010, 02:18 PM)charmalu(07-04-2010, 09:08 PM)dropnosky After deliberation, on this particular swap, I decided to have the louvers from the auto closed up, I don't want it to be any easier for salt, sand, and water to get up in the bell. You can see from the existing condition of the the 717.412 that this has already been a major problem.
If you do, you should maintain some sort of breather to atmosphere so you don't pressurize the tranny input and engine crank seals.
The G-wagen transmission bells are all closed but they have a little air tube towards the top of the bell housing that routes up to a high spot in the engine bay and is capped by an inverted cup.
sedan manuals usually have one small divot at the bottom lip of the bell where it meets the engine so water is unlikely to rise up into it.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(07-05-2010, 02:18 PM)charmalu(07-04-2010, 09:08 PM)dropnosky After deliberation, on this particular swap, I decided to have the louvers from the auto closed up, I don't want it to be any easier for salt, sand, and water to get up in the bell. You can see from the existing condition of the the 717.412 that this has already been a major problem.
If you do, you should maintain some sort of breather to atmosphere so you don't pressurize the tranny input and engine crank seals.
The G-wagen transmission bells are all closed but they have a little air tube towards the top of the bell housing that routes up to a high spot in the engine bay and is capped by an inverted cup.
sedan manuals usually have one small divot at the bottom lip of the bell where it meets the engine so water is unlikely to rise up into it.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(09-24-2010, 01:16 AM)Syncro_G(07-05-2010, 02:18 PM)charmalu(07-04-2010, 09:08 PM)dropnosky After deliberation, on this particular swap, I decided to have the louvers from the auto closed up, I don't want it to be any easier for salt, sand, and water to get up in the bell. You can see from the existing condition of the the 717.412 that this has already been a major problem.
If you do, you should maintain some sort of breather to atmosphere so you don't pressurize the tranny input and engine crank seals.
The G-wagen transmission bells are all closed but they have a little air tube towards the top of the bell housing that routes up to a high spot in the engine bay and is capped by an inverted cup.
sedan manuals usually have one small divot at the bottom lip of the bell where it meets the engine so water is unlikely to rise up into it.
I was going to dremel in the drain/air channel in the surface of the bell mating pattern like the other manuals here, but first I have to rescue the bell from the machine shop, which has been sitting on it 3 months. Currently, the louvers are still open. Now that so much time has passed, I might do something different. The big goal is to cut down on the aluminum corrosion, so maybe just painting and sealing the material will really improve how fast that seems to happen.
Perhaps instead it would make more sense to cut out the louvers, taps some holes, and make an inspection panel, which would also allow me to lubricate the release bearing sliding surface if it ever gets sticky.
MK1 franken tranny is alread corroding pretty bad, I should have painted it before installing it.
I keep getting the run around from these guys, its extremely annoying, since the job should take an hour and a half with setup.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(09-24-2010, 01:16 AM)Syncro_G(07-05-2010, 02:18 PM)charmalu(07-04-2010, 09:08 PM)dropnosky After deliberation, on this particular swap, I decided to have the louvers from the auto closed up, I don't want it to be any easier for salt, sand, and water to get up in the bell. You can see from the existing condition of the the 717.412 that this has already been a major problem.
If you do, you should maintain some sort of breather to atmosphere so you don't pressurize the tranny input and engine crank seals.
The G-wagen transmission bells are all closed but they have a little air tube towards the top of the bell housing that routes up to a high spot in the engine bay and is capped by an inverted cup.
sedan manuals usually have one small divot at the bottom lip of the bell where it meets the engine so water is unlikely to rise up into it.
I was going to dremel in the drain/air channel in the surface of the bell mating pattern like the other manuals here, but first I have to rescue the bell from the machine shop, which has been sitting on it 3 months. Currently, the louvers are still open. Now that so much time has passed, I might do something different. The big goal is to cut down on the aluminum corrosion, so maybe just painting and sealing the material will really improve how fast that seems to happen.
Perhaps instead it would make more sense to cut out the louvers, taps some holes, and make an inspection panel, which would also allow me to lubricate the release bearing sliding surface if it ever gets sticky.
MK1 franken tranny is alread corroding pretty bad, I should have painted it before installing it.
I keep getting the run around from these guys, its extremely annoying, since the job should take an hour and a half with setup.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(09-24-2010, 09:29 AM)dropnosky I was going to dremel in the drain/air channel in the surface of the bell mating pattern like the other manuals here, but first I have to rescue the bell from the machine shop, which has been sitting on it 3 months. Currently, the louvers are still open. Now that so much time has passed, I might do something different. The big goal is to cut down on the aluminum corrosion, so maybe just painting and sealing the material will really improve how fast that seems to happen.
I keep getting the run around from these guys, its extremely annoying, since the job should take an hour and a half with setup.
wow, I took this thing down there some time in july, now its the end of november, and im getting it back finally after the machine shop changed hands. I got it for less than half the price quoted, but they also kind of screwed up on the job, they took a LOT of material off the end of the bell instead of just leveling it. New machinist mis-read the old machinist's notes or something. I think it will still work hopefully.
Comparison pics-
the heavily pruned bell and what they usually look like from the factory-
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(09-24-2010, 09:29 AM)dropnosky I was going to dremel in the drain/air channel in the surface of the bell mating pattern like the other manuals here, but first I have to rescue the bell from the machine shop, which has been sitting on it 3 months. Currently, the louvers are still open. Now that so much time has passed, I might do something different. The big goal is to cut down on the aluminum corrosion, so maybe just painting and sealing the material will really improve how fast that seems to happen.
I keep getting the run around from these guys, its extremely annoying, since the job should take an hour and a half with setup.
wow, I took this thing down there some time in july, now its the end of november, and im getting it back finally after the machine shop changed hands. I got it for less than half the price quoted, but they also kind of screwed up on the job, they took a LOT of material off the end of the bell instead of just leveling it. New machinist mis-read the old machinist's notes or something. I think it will still work hopefully.
Comparison pics-
the heavily pruned bell and what they usually look like from the factory-
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
If one were to make a new intermediate plate, would that solve the bell housing hack + weld problem?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Stupid question.
If one were to make a new intermediate plate, would that solve the bell housing hack + weld problem?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
ForcedInduction
11-22-2010, 01:50 AM
#29
No. There is no place to install a starter on the left of the engine unless you were to relocate the oil filter system.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Completly blanked on the starter thing. Should have known it, because it's bit me before.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
(11-21-2010, 11:38 PM)300D50 Stupid question.
If one were to make a new intermediate plate, would that solve the bell housing hack + weld problem?
People have done that and spaced the transmission back further to make up for the starter on the passenger side. There are some pics on post #7 of an adapter kit apparently available in europe. The application was to adapt the 190E tranny to earlier gas motors, but Im sure the same concept could work for the diesels.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(11-21-2010, 11:38 PM)300D50 Stupid question.
If one were to make a new intermediate plate, would that solve the bell housing hack + weld problem?
People have done that and spaced the transmission back further to make up for the starter on the passenger side. There are some pics on post #7 of an adapter kit apparently available in europe. The application was to adapt the 190E tranny to earlier gas motors, but Im sure the same concept could work for the diesels.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
BTW, this is amazing work. I want to do a 5-Spd but nothing I've read has given me much confidence in trying it - you've made it look possible, and if the input shaft MOD is not required, that really simplifies things.
1979 240D, GT2252 (non-intercooled).
How did the plan with using the 190 clutch vice modifying the input shaft work out? Still in the works?
BTW, this is amazing work. I want to do a 5-Spd but nothing I've read has given me much confidence in trying it - you've made it look possible, and if the input shaft MOD is not required, that really simplifies things.
1979 240D, GT2252 (non-intercooled).
I've had my W201 for almost 3 years and haven't been able to source a 5 speed for it, but I've given up looking now that I have a 5 speed Volvo diesel.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
You W123 guys need to stop stealing our transmissions I've had my W201 for almost 3 years and haven't been able to source a 5 speed for it, but I've given up looking now that I have a 5 speed Volvo diesel.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-22-2011, 09:32 PM)m002922 How did the plan with using the 190 clutch vice modifying the input shaft work out? Still in the works?
BTW, this is amazing work. I want to do a 5-Spd but nothing I've read has given me much confidence in trying it - you've made it look possible, and if the input shaft MOD is not required, that really simplifies things.
Thanks! I finally got internal parts for that transmission, so hopefully I can put it back together soon and give it a try.
(01-23-2011, 12:25 AM)casioqv You W123 guys need to stop stealing our transmissions
Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(01-22-2011, 09:32 PM)m002922 How did the plan with using the 190 clutch vice modifying the input shaft work out? Still in the works?
BTW, this is amazing work. I want to do a 5-Spd but nothing I've read has given me much confidence in trying it - you've made it look possible, and if the input shaft MOD is not required, that really simplifies things.
Thanks! I finally got internal parts for that transmission, so hopefully I can put it back together soon and give it a try.
(01-23-2011, 12:25 AM)casioqv You W123 guys need to stop stealing our transmissions
Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(01-23-2011, 10:37 AM)dropnosky Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
We can't help it, according to Forced the MB engineers spec'd proper transmissions, but the "bean counters in control of final assembly" swapped 'em for harbor freight power drill gear boxes to cut costs :laugh:
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-23-2011, 10:37 AM)dropnosky Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
We can't help it, according to Forced the MB engineers spec'd proper transmissions, but the "bean counters in control of final assembly" swapped 'em for harbor freight power drill gear boxes to cut costs :laugh:
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-24-2011, 07:00 PM)casioqv(01-23-2011, 10:37 AM)dropnosky Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
We can't help it, according to Forced the MB engineers spec'd proper transmissions, but the "bean counters in control of final assembly" swapped 'em for harbor freight power drill gear boxes to cut costs :laugh:
They certainly cut corners on the 90 and 91 300d trans. The aluminum 5 speeds are known to be weak.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(01-24-2011, 07:00 PM)casioqv(01-23-2011, 10:37 AM)dropnosky Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
We can't help it, according to Forced the MB engineers spec'd proper transmissions, but the "bean counters in control of final assembly" swapped 'em for harbor freight power drill gear boxes to cut costs :laugh:
They certainly cut corners on the 90 and 91 300d trans. The aluminum 5 speeds are known to be weak.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(01-25-2011, 10:00 AM)winmutt(01-24-2011, 07:00 PM)casioqv(01-23-2011, 10:37 AM)dropnosky Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
We can't help it, according to Forced the MB engineers spec'd proper transmissions, but the "bean counters in control of final assembly" swapped 'em for harbor freight power drill gear boxes to cut costs :laugh:
They certainly cut corners on the 90 and 91 300d trans. The aluminum 5 speeds are known to be weak.
What gives out on them, Gears, Synchro`s, Bearings---------
Charlie
(01-25-2011, 10:00 AM)winmutt(01-24-2011, 07:00 PM)casioqv(01-23-2011, 10:37 AM)dropnosky Lol, I have had terrible luck finding a non damaged 5-speed, so you W201 guys need to stop breaking the transmissions before they can be adulterated by us 123 guys!
We can't help it, according to Forced the MB engineers spec'd proper transmissions, but the "bean counters in control of final assembly" swapped 'em for harbor freight power drill gear boxes to cut costs :laugh:
They certainly cut corners on the 90 and 91 300d trans. The aluminum 5 speeds are known to be weak.
What gives out on them, Gears, Synchro`s, Bearings---------
Charlie
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
The Getrag from the 190E-16v is probably tougher than most? It also has a 1:1 overdrive like the MB Automatics so it might work better in swaps without changing the rear diff.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-25-2011, 01:53 PM)casioqv The Getrag from the 190E-16v is probably tougher than most? It also has a 1:1 overdrive like the MB Automatics so it might work better in swaps without changing the rear diff.
NO, 1:1 is not overdrive. 5th gear is direct in the 190-E 2.3 16V. It`s a close ratio trans.
Now those are hard to find. I have only seen one, and it followed me home
Here is a list of the gear ratios for the different trans.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/manu...t-421.html
Charlie
(01-25-2011, 01:53 PM)casioqv The Getrag from the 190E-16v is probably tougher than most? It also has a 1:1 overdrive like the MB Automatics so it might work better in swaps without changing the rear diff.
NO, 1:1 is not overdrive. 5th gear is direct in the 190-E 2.3 16V. It`s a close ratio trans.
Now those are hard to find. I have only seen one, and it followed me home
Here is a list of the gear ratios for the different trans.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/manu...t-421.html
Charlie
charmalu NO, 1:1 is not overdrive. 5th gear is direct in the 190-E 2.3 16V. It`s a close ratio trans.
Yea, you're technically correct, but Mercedes automatic cars use really tall rear end ratios and 1:1 highest gears to obtain the same effect as overdrive with direct drive so I tend to think of the highest gear as an overdrive.
It's not configured as such in the 16V, but would offer the same cruising rpms on the freeway as the MB 4 speed autos without swapping out the rear diff. Perhaps the close ratio nature would make the 1st gear and reverse too high though...
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
charmalu NO, 1:1 is not overdrive. 5th gear is direct in the 190-E 2.3 16V. It`s a close ratio trans.
Yea, you're technically correct, but Mercedes automatic cars use really tall rear end ratios and 1:1 highest gears to obtain the same effect as overdrive with direct drive so I tend to think of the highest gear as an overdrive.
It's not configured as such in the 16V, but would offer the same cruising rpms on the freeway as the MB 4 speed autos without swapping out the rear diff. Perhaps the close ratio nature would make the 1st gear and reverse too high though...
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-26-2011, 01:33 AM)charmalu The 4:08 first gear and 4:04 reverse is a larger #, but the larger the #, the lower the gear is.
Yes... I meant that the 1st gear and reverse might be too high of gears for getting the car started easily from a dead stop, if using the getrag in a car with an automatic rear diff. The 190E 16V had a much lower rear axle ratio than most of the automatic cars.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-26-2011, 01:33 AM)charmalu The 4:08 first gear and 4:04 reverse is a larger #, but the larger the #, the lower the gear is.
Yes... I meant that the 1st gear and reverse might be too high of gears for getting the car started easily from a dead stop, if using the getrag in a car with an automatic rear diff. The 190E 16V had a much lower rear axle ratio than most of the automatic cars.
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-26-2011, 01:40 AM)casioqv(01-26-2011, 01:33 AM)charmalu The 4:08 first gear and 4:04 reverse is a larger #, but the larger the #, the lower the gear is.
Yes... I meant that the 1st gear and reverse might be too high of gears for getting the car started easily from a dead stop, if using the getrag in a car with an automatic rear diff. The 190E 16V had a much lower rear axle ratio than most of the automatic cars.
190E 16V = 3:27
300D none turbo 3:46
240D stick/auto 3:69
Charlie
(01-26-2011, 01:40 AM)casioqv(01-26-2011, 01:33 AM)charmalu The 4:08 first gear and 4:04 reverse is a larger #, but the larger the #, the lower the gear is.
Yes... I meant that the 1st gear and reverse might be too high of gears for getting the car started easily from a dead stop, if using the getrag in a car with an automatic rear diff. The 190E 16V had a much lower rear axle ratio than most of the automatic cars.
190E 16V = 3:27
300D none turbo 3:46
240D stick/auto 3:69
Charlie
(01-26-2011, 10:18 AM)charmalu 300D none turbo 3:46
240D stick/auto 3:69
I didn't realize those had such low gears (my 190D auto is 2.67) but I guess it makes sense since they're pretty heavy low horsepower cars.
So it sounds like the Getrag has better gear ratios for direct replacement of the autos *and* is tougher, but just next to impossible to find...
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
(01-26-2011, 10:18 AM)charmalu 300D none turbo 3:46
240D stick/auto 3:69
I didn't realize those had such low gears (my 190D auto is 2.67) but I guess it makes sense since they're pretty heavy low horsepower cars.
So it sounds like the Getrag has better gear ratios for direct replacement of the autos *and* is tougher, but just next to impossible to find...
-Tyler
1984 Volvo 760GLE Turbo Diesel D24T/M46
1986 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
No mercedes (for now)
Also resolved the 4th shifting issue with the MK1 tranny. So, the 4th gear grinding on the down shift was a complete synchro reassembly blunder by me.
The synchro spring under the brass clutch had slipped out and been chewed up by the gearing, resulting in the brass clutch not providing a full mesh of the gears.
The reason for this was some idiot reassembled the synchro spring on the brass clutch for 4th with the small hook not hooked into its provision on the clutch. Ill have to post a pic of this later, but its worth remembering not to do that.
I installed a new synchro spring, 4th brass clutch, and reassembled the transmission and its ready to go into the 300D. This time it will get a coat of paint before installation though.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Thanks to Rudolf_diesel, I now have a nice 30+ lb 300D non turbo flywheel to move the 717.411 box to my 84 300D.
Also resolved the 4th shifting issue with the MK1 tranny. So, the 4th gear grinding on the down shift was a complete synchro reassembly blunder by me.
The synchro spring under the brass clutch had slipped out and been chewed up by the gearing, resulting in the brass clutch not providing a full mesh of the gears.
The reason for this was some idiot reassembled the synchro spring on the brass clutch for 4th with the small hook not hooked into its provision on the clutch. Ill have to post a pic of this later, but its worth remembering not to do that.
I installed a new synchro spring, 4th brass clutch, and reassembled the transmission and its ready to go into the 300D. This time it will get a coat of paint before installation though.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
05-15-2011, 10:22 AM #49sweet! that will be a killer set up with a 300d
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
How's the chunk of vac line holding up?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
AWESOME! That car deserves it, it's a real keeper.
How's the chunk of vac line holding up?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
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