om617 swap problems
om617 swap problems
carlitosgy6
09-05-2011, 05:30 PM #1hi im swapping a om617951 into my 2000 ranger ,its almost done,i want it to run so i can continue with the rest,i activate the glow plugs,wait a minute,crank the engine and just some white smoke from the turbo exhaust,then i tried to give some fuel by pulling the stop lever and bang,but dies,then i tried to keep pulling the stop lever and it started but no idle,sputtering and smoking a lot,i need to hold the lever for a minute and then release the lever and tries to idle,goes up and down really low ,slowly begins to idle better,but a lot of smoke,its smoking black all the time at idle,if you pull the lever hard thats a lot of black smoke,if i let it cool for 45 minutes i need to activate the plugs again and all the process again, somebody can help me?
Being that is a swap, I would have to wonder did you bleed the fuel lines, and also bleed the ip, and injector lines? If you have then I would check the fuel pressure. Also check for any obstruction in the intake, maybe a rag stuffed in the turbo to keep dirt out, and forgotten. I did that once, and it was a detriot, what fun getting that back out.
Ed
yankneck696
09-05-2011, 06:41 PM #3Is the intank fuel pump still installed? May need to be replaced with a pipe to work correctly. To test, use a 5 gallon can with hoses to the supply & return to isolate it & purge all air.
Ed
carlitosgy6
09-05-2011, 06:47 PM #4yes i bled all the air on each line,im using an electrical pump taking fuel from a gallon all hoses clear,im not using the stock tank now,and i can see the turbo impeller,no rag
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Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
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DeliveryValve
09-05-2011, 07:28 PM #6Sounds like the vacuum shut off is engaging. Leave the vacuum line to it unplugged.
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Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
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carlitosgy6
09-05-2011, 07:41 PM #7the vaccum shut off its disconected ,i have all the wires of the plugs to one copper connector activated by a ford starter relay,they are working, if i dont activate the plugs the engine dont fire, its normal to use the plugs to start the engine 40 minutes after shutting off the engine?
i will try to replace the glow plugs,do a valve adjustment and purge it and see how it works
carlitosgy6
09-06-2011, 07:52 AM #9i really think some are bad because you can feel some getting hot and some not
i will try to replace the glow plugs,do a valve adjustment and purge it and see how it works
Sometimes it is a matter of cranking the engine over in long durations and pumping the hand pump to make sure all the air is out to start the engine. But certainly if a couple of glow plugs are out, it will make starting harder.
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Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
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DeliveryValve
09-06-2011, 12:18 PM #10Did you see the engine run before you removed it?
Sometimes it is a matter of cranking the engine over in long durations and pumping the hand pump to make sure all the air is out to start the engine. But certainly if a couple of glow plugs are out, it will make starting harder.
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Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
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(09-06-2011, 03:04 PM)aaa Sounds like timing. Possibly along with bad plugs. Any glowplug problems should clear up after you run it for 30 secs or so, it should not keep smoking afterwards.
injection timing?advanced or retarded?this engine is too quiet, it sound more like a modern diesel,not clunky as other mercs when are idling in a stop light next to me,if i walk like ten feet from the tailgate its really quiet and has no exhaust, plain turbo
carlitosgy6
09-06-2011, 04:52 PM #13(09-06-2011, 03:04 PM)aaa Sounds like timing. Possibly along with bad plugs. Any glowplug problems should clear up after you run it for 30 secs or so, it should not keep smoking afterwards.
injection timing?advanced or retarded?this engine is too quiet, it sound more like a modern diesel,not clunky as other mercs when are idling in a stop light next to me,if i walk like ten feet from the tailgate its really quiet and has no exhaust, plain turbo
I am assuming the engine ran good before you swapped it. If you have not run the engine before swapping then you may well have other problems.
retarded timing will give white/grey smoke at idle, will smell strongly of fuel. As the timing chain wears it will stretch and timing of the ip gets retarded, as well as the camshaft. There may even be an offset key in the sprocket on the cam. The offset key corrects cam timing but will not help ip timing. If a good mechanic did the offset key then he/she would have also checked ip timing.
Bleeding the ip, use primer pump, or in your case electric pump, loosen fuel return line and let air out. Then you should loosen all injector lines. then crank until fuel sqirts out each one, close while cranking after air is out. Safety glasses are a good idea for this.
I am assuming the engine ran good before you swapped it. If you have not run the engine before swapping then you may well have other problems.
retarded timing will give white/grey smoke at idle, will smell strongly of fuel. As the timing chain wears it will stretch and timing of the ip gets retarded, as well as the camshaft. There may even be an offset key in the sprocket on the cam. The offset key corrects cam timing but will not help ip timing. If a good mechanic did the offset key then he/she would have also checked ip timing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSMaSj09-...er&list=UL
maybe the man that sold me this engine knows he has a problem with it,i think it was cheap at 425 including starter odometer,just everything
carlitosgy6
09-06-2011, 06:59 PM #15i take a video maybe its going to give more clues,and i didnt saw the engine run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSMaSj09-...er&list=UL
maybe the man that sold me this engine knows he has a problem with it,i think it was cheap at 425 including starter odometer,just everything
carlitosgy6
09-06-2011, 08:35 PM #18look this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSMaSj09-...er&list=UL
if i need to change the ip i have a few but really i dont understand the link you sent me to install it on time aaa
carlitosgy6
09-06-2011, 08:44 PM #20yes,when its cold i need to keep the engine high like a car with no choke and when it began to hold on idle itself goes up and down really bad and sometimes dies,the engine its fully hot in the video
if i need to change the ip i have a few but really i dont understand the link you sent me to install it on time aaa
carlitosgy6
09-07-2011, 05:59 PM #22what your are trying to say is if i prime the new pump i just need to check if its dripping from #1 hole in the ip,and if i have the engine at 24 degrees before,i can slip the pump in place?you can explain me the use of this tool? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-...19c5f24525
The tool is for newer pumps. There's a port on the side of the pump where it screws in and locks onto a tab inside when it's turned to a certain position. The position of the crank when using the tool is different, 15 ATDC probably (not sure what it'd be for 617).
The fact that runs at all means that you've installed it pretty close. So turn the engine to 24 and see how fast it drips when you pump the primer there, if at all.
The tool is for newer pumps. There's a port on the side of the pump where it screws in and locks onto a tab inside when it's turned to a certain position. The position of the crank when using the tool is different, 15 ATDC probably (not sure what it'd be for 617).
(09-07-2011, 05:59 PM)carlitosgy6 what your are trying to say is if i prime the new pump i just need to check if its dripping from #1 hole in the ip,and if i have the engine at 24 degrees before,i can slip the pump in place?you can explain me the use of this tool? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-...19c5f24525
i just bought it
carlitosgy6
09-07-2011, 06:17 PM #24(09-07-2011, 05:59 PM)carlitosgy6 what your are trying to say is if i prime the new pump i just need to check if its dripping from #1 hole in the ip,and if i have the engine at 24 degrees before,i can slip the pump in place?you can explain me the use of this tool? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-...19c5f24525
i just bought it
one big thing,if i remove an ip and disturbe it,disturbe is to rotate the pump to a unknown position ,how i find the place to put the pump again in the correct place on the engine and on the pump so when its close to the correct timing i can slip the pump in the engine and then do the dripping test,and the same example is for a replacement of an ip,this is going to be a good goal if i get it because i can try with other pumps that i know they are good
and before i change the pump im gonna make the drip test so i can find where is this creepy pump
carlitosgy6
09-07-2011, 08:04 PM #25I really appreciate the effort that you people have put in my problem,aaa,delivery valve,ronnie,yank,all of you, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
one big thing,if i remove an ip and disturbe it,disturbe is to rotate the pump to a unknown position ,how i find the place to put the pump again in the correct place on the engine and on the pump so when its close to the correct timing i can slip the pump in the engine and then do the dripping test,and the same example is for a replacement of an ip,this is going to be a good goal if i get it because i can try with other pumps that i know they are good
and before i change the pump im gonna make the drip test so i can find where is this creepy pump
Must say it is rare for the IP (injection pump) to be bad, so would be cautious about changing it, unless it can be proven to be bad.
To remove set engine to 24 degrees before top dead center on no. one cylinder. Use timing marks on damper.
the ip has a mark on the shaft, and a mark on the housing close to where the shaft comes out. there is also a gap in the teeth of the drive coupling, line up all marks. now it can be installed, then checked for timing by the drip method.
If this were my engine, I would do the following in this order,
check fuel pressure with engine running
do a compression test
replace any bad glow plugs
check rack damper
You can post your figures if you like
look up rack damper, this can cause idle to go up and down. there is an upgrade if I remember right for this. It is an external ip part.
Must say it is rare for the IP (injection pump) to be bad, so would be cautious about changing it, unless it can be proven to be bad.
To remove set engine to 24 degrees before top dead center on no. one cylinder. Use timing marks on damper.
the ip has a mark on the shaft, and a mark on the housing close to where the shaft comes out. there is also a gap in the teeth of the drive coupling, line up all marks. now it can be installed, then checked for timing by the drip method.
If this were my engine, I would do the following in this order,
check fuel pressure with engine running
do a compression test
replace any bad glow plugs
check rack damper
You can post your figures if you like
and cracked open one by one the injectors lines and all are bleed all cylinders working
and ronnie thank you for let know how to install an IP
carlitosgy6
09-09-2011, 08:31 PM #27about the ip i dont think its bad,i just think somebody touched the pump in a wrong way and its out of tune,today i made a valve adjustment and all was out of adjustment and one was with no clearance at all,also put new glow plugs,i dont know why it was more difficult to start but when started it accelerated better, but the smoke was there,and the lopey idle, im going to get to an isolated area of the town and tommorrow im going to make a lubro moly diesel purge,and then see whats happen
and cracked open one by one the injectors lines and all are bleed all cylinders working
and ronnie thank you for let know how to install an IP
to verify it
carlitosgy6
09-10-2011, 01:48 PM #28i make today a lubro moly purge,no difference,it runs like crap,i think i have a dying engine,im going to buy a compression tester
to verify it
can you confirm correct timing?
What is your fuel pressure after filter (before IP) at idle?
Are your injectors o.k.?
(I had "new" injectors on my engine recently and after some days it ran crappy. The last thing I did was pop pressure/spray test the injectors and one was bad).
Let's assume someone touched the IP governor. I bet it was the full load screw. After checking the basics I'd just reduce the full load adjustment.
Tom
Hi,
can you confirm correct timing?
What is your fuel pressure after filter (before IP) at idle?
Are your injectors o.k.?
(I had "new" injectors on my engine recently and after some days it ran crappy. The last thing I did was pop pressure/spray test the injectors and one was bad).
Let's assume someone touched the IP governor. I bet it was the full load screw. After checking the basics I'd just reduce the full load adjustment.
Tom
the tool needed for this timing thing can be done with one of the lines?because its not dripping its streaming from 24 degrees
carlitosgy6
09-11-2011, 09:50 AM #30sometimes it runs away and sometimes dies,im going to do the timing today
the tool needed for this timing thing can be done with one of the lines?because its not dripping its streaming from 24 degrees
carlitosgy6
09-11-2011, 12:52 PM #31i installed another ip exactly on the same spot than the other one and its doing the same.i need to turn the idle screw completely in like the other ip, they almost feel exactly the same, also i swapped the injectors,i will try to remove the pump and installing in another spot
carlitosgy6
09-11-2011, 05:14 PM #32if i am correct the ip was off a lot i checked in the bench and the ip squirt fuel in the #1 cylinder when the mark on the back of the ip matches the missing tooth on the ip gear, i put the engine at 0 with the cam lobes pointing up and inserted the ip on the block.the engine started but misfiring a lot im sure i need to move the ip position but i dont know what direction
This means you have to turn the engine to 24 deg before DTC (cyl. #1 in compression stroke, as you did correctly, but you set it to 0 deg).
This means now you are too late by 24 deg.
The IP has to go out again, the slots are only a few deg.
Later you do the fine adjustment with the drip method.
Rotating the IP in the slots towards the engine advances...
You are getting closer and closer.
Tom
the marks on the IP (missing tooth...) gives you begin of delivery of the IP.
This means you have to turn the engine to 24 deg before DTC (cyl. #1 in compression stroke, as you did correctly, but you set it to 0 deg).
This means now you are too late by 24 deg.
The IP has to go out again, the slots are only a few deg.
Later you do the fine adjustment with the drip method.
Rotating the IP in the slots towards the engine advances...
You are getting closer and closer.
Tom
(09-11-2011, 10:56 PM)tomnik the marks on the IP (missing tooth...) gives you begin of delivery of the IP.this missing tooth is aprox at 10:30 and the pump was at 5:30 and the freaking engine runs and drives,i went to 65 mph cruising but drinking diesel like coke,im going to do today the pump at 24 deg. and i know its going to work
This means you have to turn the engine to 24 deg before DTC (cyl. #1 in compression stroke, as you did correctly, but you set it to 0 deg).
This means now you are too late by 24 deg.
The IP has to go out again, the slots are only a few deg.
Later you do the fine adjustment with the drip method.
Rotating the IP in the slots towards the engine advances...
You are getting closer and closer.
Tom
carlitosgy6
09-12-2011, 06:36 AM #34(09-11-2011, 10:56 PM)tomnik the marks on the IP (missing tooth...) gives you begin of delivery of the IP.this missing tooth is aprox at 10:30 and the pump was at 5:30 and the freaking engine runs and drives,i went to 65 mph cruising but drinking diesel like coke,im going to do today the pump at 24 deg. and i know its going to work
This means you have to turn the engine to 24 deg before DTC (cyl. #1 in compression stroke, as you did correctly, but you set it to 0 deg).
This means now you are too late by 24 deg.
The IP has to go out again, the slots are only a few deg.
Later you do the fine adjustment with the drip method.
Rotating the IP in the slots towards the engine advances...
You are getting closer and closer.
Tom
thank you everybody
carlitosgy6
09-12-2011, 12:26 PM #35i installed the pump at 24 deg before and make the drip adjustment andthe engine works almost perfect,noisy as all the mercedes on the area,but almost no smoke , thank you everybody
carlitosgy6
09-12-2011, 07:45 PM #37I LIKE THE NOISE ,but its not a big noise its really quiet,its smoking a little,i can fix that with timing? it have good power,the turbo noise make me happy,the gearing of my truck feels perfect for this engine,its 3.73 with 295-50-15 tires,i just like it
Thanks.
charliebob
09-13-2011, 05:33 PM #38Please post some pictures of your Ranger swap. I have been thinking of doing a similar swap for some time.
Thanks.
(09-13-2011, 05:33 PM)charliebob Please post some pictures of your Ranger swap. I have been thinking of doing a similar swap for some time.YOU HAVE A RANGER?WHAT YEAR?auto or manual?what engine?i will post pictures in the weekend
Thanks.
carlitosgy6
09-13-2011, 06:47 PM #39(09-13-2011, 05:33 PM)charliebob Please post some pictures of your Ranger swap. I have been thinking of doing a similar swap for some time.YOU HAVE A RANGER?WHAT YEAR?auto or manual?what engine?i will post pictures in the weekend
Thanks.
(09-13-2011, 06:47 PM)carlitosgy6(09-13-2011, 05:33 PM)charliebob Please post some pictures of your Ranger swap. I have been thinking of doing a similar swap for some time.YOU HAVE A RANGER?WHAT YEAR?auto or manual?what engine?i will post pictures in the weekend
Thanks.
Actually I don't have a Ranger at the moment, but I have a OM617 and trans with only 139k miles. Powertrain is complete and running, just waiting on a body!
I look forward to your pictures. Thanks.
charliebob
09-13-2011, 07:48 PM #40(09-13-2011, 06:47 PM)carlitosgy6(09-13-2011, 05:33 PM)charliebob Please post some pictures of your Ranger swap. I have been thinking of doing a similar swap for some time.YOU HAVE A RANGER?WHAT YEAR?auto or manual?what engine?i will post pictures in the weekend
Thanks.
Actually I don't have a Ranger at the moment, but I have a OM617 and trans with only 139k miles. Powertrain is complete and running, just waiting on a body!
I look forward to your pictures. Thanks.
(09-13-2011, 07:48 PM)charliebob(09-13-2011, 06:47 PM)carlitosgy6(09-13-2011, 05:33 PM)charliebob Please post some pictures of your Ranger swap. I have been thinking of doing a similar swap for some time.YOU HAVE A RANGER?WHAT YEAR?auto or manual?what engine?i will post pictures in the weekend
Thanks.
Actually I don't have a Ranger at the moment, but I have a OM617 and trans with only 139k miles. Powertrain is complete and running, just waiting on a body!
I look forward to your pictures. Thanks.
I set my i/p timing to 27deg in my swap and the motor came alive! It was a little louder at idle, but not bad. MPG stayed the same, but way more power at low rpm.
(09-13-2011, 07:48 PM)charliebob(09-13-2011, 06:47 PM)carlitosgy6(09-13-2011, 05:33 PM)charliebob Please post some pictures of your Ranger swap. I have been thinking of doing a similar swap for some time.YOU HAVE A RANGER?WHAT YEAR?auto or manual?what engine?i will post pictures in the weekend
Thanks.
Actually I don't have a Ranger at the moment, but I have a OM617 and trans with only 139k miles. Powertrain is complete and running, just waiting on a body!
I look forward to your pictures. Thanks.
I set my i/p timing to 27deg in my swap and the motor came alive! It was a little louder at idle, but not bad. MPG stayed the same, but way more power at low rpm.
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