'87 190D 2.5 Turbo 5 speed conversion ... Swap options and advice??
'87 190D 2.5 Turbo 5 speed conversion ... Swap options and advice??
After hunting for what seems like forever, I finally lucked out and found the 190D 2.5 turbo of my dreams!!! Straight up, it's a sweetheart of a car and an absolute JOY to drive but, like many others, I can't help but think a 5 speed would just be the icing on the cake.
I've done quite a bit of reading about the ins and outs and have most of the bits and pieces pulled together but I still had a couple of unresolved questions that I hoped people on the forum could help with and also thought it might not hurt to have another thread that brings together helpful advice and jnfo.
My main hiccup right now is deciding which 5 speed set up to grab from two parts cars close by. One is an 84 2.2 190D and the other is an 85 190E 2.3 8V. Also I'm still open to other trans options or conversions/ rebuilt tranmission people might have available.
As far as the ratios, from what I can gather...
The 190D 2.2 diesels have:
4.23, 2.36, 1.49, 1.00, 0.84
3.42 final drive ...
The 190E 2.3 8V's have:
3.91, 2.17, 1.37, 1.00, 0.78
3.27 final drive (up to Aug. '89)
3.91, 2.17, 1.37, 1.00, 0.81
3.42 final drive (from Sept. '89 on) ...
And the Euro 5 speed 190D 2.5 turbos have:
3.86, 2.18, 1.38, 1.00, 0.75
3.46 final drive.
I'm sure either transmission would work and it looks like the 190E transmission with a 2.2 190D rear would give almost an identical setup as the stock euro 5 speed ... BUT ... I'd ideally like to have a LSD in the car and hoped to swap a 3.27 (or euro 3.07) 16V rear end at the same time as the 5 speed.
So here are the questions I've been battling with ...
In general what would people recommend between the two trans options (I can grab the diesel flywheel either way ) and what relative differences are there between them?
Would the gear ratio and spacing differences between the two trans options have performance differences? How would either pair with the 3.27 LSD? What about to the 3.46 190D 2,2 rear or the euro 3.07LSD?
Do the euro 5 speed stock ratios represent the ideal set up?
What combinations might still give a good balance between taking off and cruising the highways but still lean a towards the sportier side (with engine/power upgrades in mind)?
Any aid or advice would greatly be appreciated and hopefully this thread will help others like me wrap their heads around what swap options might best suit their own 190D turbos. Thanks!
Hi guys 'n' gals,
After hunting for what seems like forever, I finally lucked out and found the 190D 2.5 turbo of my dreams!!! Straight up, it's a sweetheart of a car and an absolute JOY to drive but, like many others, I can't help but think a 5 speed would just be the icing on the cake.
I've done quite a bit of reading about the ins and outs and have most of the bits and pieces pulled together but I still had a couple of unresolved questions that I hoped people on the forum could help with and also thought it might not hurt to have another thread that brings together helpful advice and jnfo.
My main hiccup right now is deciding which 5 speed set up to grab from two parts cars close by. One is an 84 2.2 190D and the other is an 85 190E 2.3 8V. Also I'm still open to other trans options or conversions/ rebuilt tranmission people might have available.
As far as the ratios, from what I can gather...
The 190D 2.2 diesels have:
4.23, 2.36, 1.49, 1.00, 0.84
3.42 final drive ...
The 190E 2.3 8V's have:
3.91, 2.17, 1.37, 1.00, 0.78
3.27 final drive (up to Aug. '89)
3.91, 2.17, 1.37, 1.00, 0.81
3.42 final drive (from Sept. '89 on) ...
And the Euro 5 speed 190D 2.5 turbos have:
3.86, 2.18, 1.38, 1.00, 0.75
3.46 final drive.
I'm sure either transmission would work and it looks like the 190E transmission with a 2.2 190D rear would give almost an identical setup as the stock euro 5 speed ... BUT ... I'd ideally like to have a LSD in the car and hoped to swap a 3.27 (or euro 3.07) 16V rear end at the same time as the 5 speed.
So here are the questions I've been battling with ...
In general what would people recommend between the two trans options (I can grab the diesel flywheel either way ) and what relative differences are there between them?
Would the gear ratio and spacing differences between the two trans options have performance differences? How would either pair with the 3.27 LSD? What about to the 3.46 190D 2,2 rear or the euro 3.07LSD?
Do the euro 5 speed stock ratios represent the ideal set up?
What combinations might still give a good balance between taking off and cruising the highways but still lean a towards the sportier side (with engine/power upgrades in mind)?
Any aid or advice would greatly be appreciated and hopefully this thread will help others like me wrap their heads around what swap options might best suit their own 190D turbos. Thanks!
The 5 speed was from a 85 8vlv, used the 8vlv clutch and flywheel. Drove perfectly, was much better at highway speeds then the stock auto.
Now I put the 5 speed onto a om603, and is even better. Looks like the clutch will be slipping once i start modding the pump.
If you have any questions on the conversion let me know, was very easy to do.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
11-08-2011, 10:25 PM #3Did a 5 spoeed swap to my om602.
The 5 speed was from a 85 8vlv, used the 8vlv clutch and flywheel. Drove perfectly, was much better at highway speeds then the stock auto.
Now I put the 5 speed onto a om603, and is even better. Looks like the clutch will be slipping once i start modding the pump.
If you have any questions on the conversion let me know, was very easy to do.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
Been head scratching all weekend but I think I've finally nailed down what set up I'm going to go for.
I'm going to put in the transmission and flywheel from the '84 2.2 190D, upgrade the clutch and match it with a 2.3-16V LSD differential.
I compared all the realistic combos of manual transmissions and rears and the 3.27 (16V) and 3.42 (2.2 190D) diffs both compare well to the stock euro 190DT ratios when matched with either 2.2/2.5 diesel or 2.3 gasser 5 speeds. A 2.3 8V transmission with a 190D 2.2 rear yields almost the identical ratios as the euro 190DT stick but the other options all look like they'll work well and are only off by a hair.
I decided not to go for the "closest to stock" option and I think the old 190D trans (with the benefit of the heavier diesel flywheel) with a 16V rear would be just the ticket for my 190DT. The limited slip 16V 3.27 diff fits the 190DT without having to swap the diff flanges/axles and the 2.2 trans gears are lower than the euro/gasser gears but since the 3.27 is a bit taller then the euro 3.46 rear, it balances the combined ratios out very well and overall it is almost identical to the stock 190DT 5 speed.
The only MINOR differences (less the 5mph) end up being a lower first gear to start with, slightly lower 2nd and even slighter/identical 3rd, a slightly taller 1:1 4th and a lower final 5th. Again, slight differences from the stock ratios, but in my mind, lower early gears to zip, a 4th and 5th that work perfectly for the highway AND a limited slip differential works out to be the ideal combo. I've pulled together the combined ratios and speed of a few of the w201 transmission / differential combos and please feel more then free to comment on any of my logic,info or ideas about any of this!
190DT Stock Euro 5 Speed
Gears:3.86, 2.18, 1.38, 1.00, 0.75
Rear:3.46
Combined Ratios (gear X rear) and Speed at 3500RPMS
1st: 13.36, 19.0 MPH @ 3500
2nd: 7.54, 33.7 MPH
3rd: 4.77, 53.2 MPH
4th: 3.46, 73.5 MPH
5th: 2.60, 97.9 MPH
190D 2.2 Trans + 16V Diff
Gears: 4.23, 2.36, 1.49, 1.00, 0.84
Rear: 3.27 LSD (early)
Combined Ratio/Speed:
1st: 13.83, 18.4 MPH @ 3500
2nd: 7.76, 32.9 MPH
3rd: 4.87, 52.1 MPH
4th: 3.27, 77.7 MPH
5th: 2.75, 92.5 MPH
190E 8V Trans + 190D 2.2 Diff
Gears: 3.91, 2.17, 1.37, 1.00, 0.78
Rear: 3.42
Combined/Speed:
1st: 13.37, 19.0 MPH @ 3500
2nd: 7.42, 34.2 MPH "
3rd: 4.68, 54.2 MPH "
4th: 3.42, 74.3 MPH "
5th: 2.77, 91.7 MPH "
Thanks for the replies
Been head scratching all weekend but I think I've finally nailed down what set up I'm going to go for.
I'm going to put in the transmission and flywheel from the '84 2.2 190D, upgrade the clutch and match it with a 2.3-16V LSD differential.
I compared all the realistic combos of manual transmissions and rears and the 3.27 (16V) and 3.42 (2.2 190D) diffs both compare well to the stock euro 190DT ratios when matched with either 2.2/2.5 diesel or 2.3 gasser 5 speeds. A 2.3 8V transmission with a 190D 2.2 rear yields almost the identical ratios as the euro 190DT stick but the other options all look like they'll work well and are only off by a hair.
I decided not to go for the "closest to stock" option and I think the old 190D trans (with the benefit of the heavier diesel flywheel) with a 16V rear would be just the ticket for my 190DT. The limited slip 16V 3.27 diff fits the 190DT without having to swap the diff flanges/axles and the 2.2 trans gears are lower than the euro/gasser gears but since the 3.27 is a bit taller then the euro 3.46 rear, it balances the combined ratios out very well and overall it is almost identical to the stock 190DT 5 speed.
The only MINOR differences (less the 5mph) end up being a lower first gear to start with, slightly lower 2nd and even slighter/identical 3rd, a slightly taller 1:1 4th and a lower final 5th. Again, slight differences from the stock ratios, but in my mind, lower early gears to zip, a 4th and 5th that work perfectly for the highway AND a limited slip differential works out to be the ideal combo. I've pulled together the combined ratios and speed of a few of the w201 transmission / differential combos and please feel more then free to comment on any of my logic,info or ideas about any of this!
190DT Stock Euro 5 Speed
Gears:3.86, 2.18, 1.38, 1.00, 0.75
Rear:3.46
Combined Ratios (gear X rear) and Speed at 3500RPMS
1st: 13.36, 19.0 MPH @ 3500
2nd: 7.54, 33.7 MPH
3rd: 4.77, 53.2 MPH
4th: 3.46, 73.5 MPH
5th: 2.60, 97.9 MPH
190D 2.2 Trans + 16V Diff
Gears: 4.23, 2.36, 1.49, 1.00, 0.84
Rear: 3.27 LSD (early)
Combined Ratio/Speed:
1st: 13.83, 18.4 MPH @ 3500
2nd: 7.76, 32.9 MPH
3rd: 4.87, 52.1 MPH
4th: 3.27, 77.7 MPH
5th: 2.75, 92.5 MPH
190E 8V Trans + 190D 2.2 Diff
Gears: 3.91, 2.17, 1.37, 1.00, 0.78
Rear: 3.42
Combined/Speed:
1st: 13.37, 19.0 MPH @ 3500
2nd: 7.42, 34.2 MPH "
3rd: 4.68, 54.2 MPH "
4th: 3.42, 74.3 MPH "
5th: 2.77, 91.7 MPH "
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
11-16-2011, 01:34 AM #5great info. will definitely look into those numbers when I start maxing out the stock 8vlv ratios.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
I'm working on putting the 6spd in my 87 300sdl
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-16-2011, 11:34 AM #6The 6spd is also an option from a later 02-03 c230 kompressor but may require more fab work to the drive shaft and cross member and shift linkage and the fly wheel is the tricky part since it was designed for a duel mass flywheel
I'm working on putting the 6spd in my 87 300sdl
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
(11-16-2011, 01:34 AM)George3soccer great info. will definitely look into those numbers when I start maxing out the stock 8vlv ratios.
(11-16-2011, 11:34 AM)willbhere4u The 6spd is also an option from a later 02-03 c230 kompressor but may require more fab work to the drive shaft and cross member and shift linkage and the fly wheel is the tricky part since it was designed for a duel mass flywheel
I'm working on putting the 6spd in my 87 300sdl
Delish to both projects! I've only just caught wind about the C kompressor 6 speeds working with the OM602 ... would be a sweet set-up and there's actually one at the junkyard I scoured two days ago
That being said, I'm supposed to be reducing my shop time and increasing my study time not visa versa haha. Same goes for an OM603 swap ... shame on you George3soccer! There's a bit of a debate on my twin post on benzworld concerning the accuracy of RPM/ratio/speed calculations for the 190 5 speed/diff options. There's some suggestion that the calculated values may be 30% above real "driver's seat" values. I personally have big doubts although It has stalled my decision a bit as it would essentially have the car revving 3500rpm's at 73mph. It would be great if anyone on here with some insight into their real car values could help find the truth in the matter.
(11-16-2011, 01:34 AM)George3soccer great info. will definitely look into those numbers when I start maxing out the stock 8vlv ratios.
(11-16-2011, 11:34 AM)willbhere4u The 6spd is also an option from a later 02-03 c230 kompressor but may require more fab work to the drive shaft and cross member and shift linkage and the fly wheel is the tricky part since it was designed for a duel mass flywheel
I'm working on putting the 6spd in my 87 300sdl
Delish to both projects! I've only just caught wind about the C kompressor 6 speeds working with the OM602 ... would be a sweet set-up and there's actually one at the junkyard I scoured two days ago
That being said, I'm supposed to be reducing my shop time and increasing my study time not visa versa haha. Same goes for an OM603 swap ... shame on you George3soccer! There's a bit of a debate on my twin post on benzworld concerning the accuracy of RPM/ratio/speed calculations for the 190 5 speed/diff options. There's some suggestion that the calculated values may be 30% above real "driver's seat" values. I personally have big doubts although It has stalled my decision a bit as it would essentially have the car revving 3500rpm's at 73mph. It would be great if anyone on here with some insight into their real car values could help find the truth in the matter.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-16-2011, 05:35 PM #8I would grab the speedometer out of the car you get your rear differential out of I think they are calibrated to the final drive ratio!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
(11-16-2011, 05:35 PM)willbhere4u I would grab the speedometer out of the car you get your rear differential out of I think they are calibrated to the final drive ratio!
Roger that willbhere4u ... thanks!
Any advice out there about upgrading (types, sizes, manufac. of clutches) the 190D 2.2 clutch? I had one person who recommended using a 9 inch 190e clutch.
(11-16-2011, 05:35 PM)willbhere4u I would grab the speedometer out of the car you get your rear differential out of I think they are calibrated to the final drive ratio!
Roger that willbhere4u ... thanks!
Any advice out there about upgrading (types, sizes, manufac. of clutches) the 190D 2.2 clutch? I had one person who recommended using a 9 inch 190e clutch.
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