OM617 - W123 - 5 Speed Manual Transmission Conversion
OM617 - W123 - 5 Speed Manual Transmission Conversion
01-11-2012, 10:42 AM
#1
Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123?
Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7.
Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit.
Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123.
There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe.
I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud:
Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into?
Robert
Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and:
The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back.
Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter.
The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage.
Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert
This post was last modified: 01-11-2012, 03:42 PM by rdavisinva.
rdavisinva
01-11-2012, 10:42 AM #1Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info.
Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123?
Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7.
Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit.
Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123.
There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe.
I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud:
Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into?
Robert
Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and:
The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back.
Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter.
The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage.
Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert
01-11-2012, 10:47 AM
#2
Best bet would be a stock 5-speed trans for the w123 (any engine). The side levers are pretty much the same as the ones in the 4-speed manual, except a bit shorter. Anywho, easily modifiable via the cut and weld method. The gearstick thingy is different, you'd need that, plus the short driveshaft bit, cross member, and that's about it.
Easy to do, so I'd look for this. Plus it's original. And pretty good as well.
This post was last modified: 01-11-2012, 10:51 AM by vstef_is.
1982 s123 300TD TurboDiesel (US Spec) in France
Ok, the original thread is gone, so here's me writing again.
Best bet would be a stock 5-speed trans for the w123 (any engine). The side levers are pretty much the same as the ones in the 4-speed manual, except a bit shorter. Anywho, easily modifiable via the cut and weld method. The gearstick thingy is different, you'd need that, plus the short driveshaft bit, cross member, and that's about it.
Easy to do, so I'd look for this. Plus it's original. And pretty good as well.
1982 s123 300TD TurboDiesel (US Spec) in France
01-11-2012, 11:04 AM
#3
(01-11-2012, 10:47 AM)vstef_is Best bet would be a stock 5-speed trans for the w123 (any engine). The side levers are pretty much the same as the ones in the 4-speed manual, except a bit shorter. Anywho, easily modifiable via the cut and weld method. The gearstick thingy is different, you'd need that, plus the short driveshaft bit, cross member, and that's about it.
Easy to do, so I'd look for this. Plus it's original. And pretty good as well.
Thanks for the tips,
BUT
Have been looking off and on for over 6 months and no joy.
That's why the thoughts to convert to a more readily available Mercedes 5 or even 6 speed.
Are these stock 5-speeds you mention available in your "neck of the woods" ???
If so, there are 3 of us in the area looking for a 5 speed that will bolt up to the OM617.
All 3 of us have 300TD wagons (estates) and one of the guys has been looking longer than I have and only found 4 speed manuals,
NO 5 speeds located to date.
Robert
This post was last modified: 01-11-2012, 11:05 AM by rdavisinva.
rdavisinva
01-11-2012, 11:04 AM #3(01-11-2012, 10:47 AM)vstef_is Best bet would be a stock 5-speed trans for the w123 (any engine). The side levers are pretty much the same as the ones in the 4-speed manual, except a bit shorter. Anywho, easily modifiable via the cut and weld method. The gearstick thingy is different, you'd need that, plus the short driveshaft bit, cross member, and that's about it.
Easy to do, so I'd look for this. Plus it's original. And pretty good as well.
Thanks for the tips,
BUT
Have been looking off and on for over 6 months and no joy.
That's why the thoughts to convert to a more readily available Mercedes 5 or even 6 speed.
Are these stock 5-speeds you mention available in your "neck of the woods" ???
If so, there are 3 of us in the area looking for a 5 speed that will bolt up to the OM617.
All 3 of us have 300TD wagons (estates) and one of the guys has been looking longer than I have and only found 4 speed manuals,
NO 5 speeds located to date.
Robert
01-11-2012, 03:37 PM
#5
(01-11-2012, 02:17 PM)vstef_is I can only say good things happen to those who wait...
Perhaps, but for those of us who care to take an approach different from looking and waiting...
and still explore the distinct possibility of building an adapter and using it to install a Mercedes 5 speed manual from a vehicle that is readily available and common enough to be inexpensive and easily fit.
The search continues, perhaps someone else will lend some answers to the questions asked in this thread.
Thanks,
Robert
rdavisinva
01-11-2012, 03:37 PM #5(01-11-2012, 02:17 PM)vstef_is I can only say good things happen to those who wait...
Perhaps, but for those of us who care to take an approach different from looking and waiting...
and still explore the distinct possibility of building an adapter and using it to install a Mercedes 5 speed manual from a vehicle that is readily available and common enough to be inexpensive and easily fit.
The search continues, perhaps someone else will lend some answers to the questions asked in this thread.
Thanks,
Robert
01-11-2012, 07:57 PM
#7
(01-11-2012, 04:55 PM)aaa http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...hp?tid=965
Thanks for the URL to the excellent thread.
It is full of useful information that shows very good work.
The approach taken, while extraordinary in my opinion, is much more difficult to repeat when compared to manufacturing your own adapter and flywheel.
The thread showed the transmission adapted to the engine, but with an adapter and custom flywheel, it will be the other way around. This will eliminate any changes to the housing and first motion shaft. Am not knocking the good work, just would take a different approach.
This was exactly the sort of information I was searching for.
It showed that other Mercedes transmissions had already been adapted and will work just fine provided you have the donor shifter that matches the adapted transmission and make the other changes in linkage, mounting, driveshaft sizing, and so on.
My approach will be to find a plentiful 5 speed form the 80s early 90s era and make an adapter and flywheel so that the transmission won't need any modifications. Then if the adapted transmission fails or needs a rebuild it can be exchanged for another unit. Also the clutch will match the transmission shaft splines and length.
Still need to research the spedo gear ratio on the donor unit and ensure an accurate reading. Hopefully this will lead me to purchase a unit to start the project.
On another note, there was a 6 cyl Mercedes gas 250 engine and transmission that came out of a 1985 W124 on UK ebay. The seller wasn't sure if it was a 4 or 5 speed, but the shape of the back of the housing may identify this or wonder if part numbers or markings somewhere on the housing would identify the number of gears. Would think there must be lists somewhere that specify this if you know the right numbers. Any suggestions here?
Robert
rdavisinva
01-11-2012, 07:57 PM #7(01-11-2012, 04:55 PM)aaa http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...hp?tid=965
Thanks for the URL to the excellent thread.
It is full of useful information that shows very good work.
The approach taken, while extraordinary in my opinion, is much more difficult to repeat when compared to manufacturing your own adapter and flywheel.
The thread showed the transmission adapted to the engine, but with an adapter and custom flywheel, it will be the other way around. This will eliminate any changes to the housing and first motion shaft. Am not knocking the good work, just would take a different approach.
This was exactly the sort of information I was searching for.
It showed that other Mercedes transmissions had already been adapted and will work just fine provided you have the donor shifter that matches the adapted transmission and make the other changes in linkage, mounting, driveshaft sizing, and so on.
My approach will be to find a plentiful 5 speed form the 80s early 90s era and make an adapter and flywheel so that the transmission won't need any modifications. Then if the adapted transmission fails or needs a rebuild it can be exchanged for another unit. Also the clutch will match the transmission shaft splines and length.
Still need to research the spedo gear ratio on the donor unit and ensure an accurate reading. Hopefully this will lead me to purchase a unit to start the project.
On another note, there was a 6 cyl Mercedes gas 250 engine and transmission that came out of a 1985 W124 on UK ebay. The seller wasn't sure if it was a 4 or 5 speed, but the shape of the back of the housing may identify this or wonder if part numbers or markings somewhere on the housing would identify the number of gears. Would think there must be lists somewhere that specify this if you know the right numbers. Any suggestions here?
Robert
01-11-2012, 08:02 PM
#8
I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts.
The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400.
Here is one for sale on ebay.de
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-G-300-G..._550wt_698
.
If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing.
Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=2260
.
This post was last modified: 01-11-2012, 08:06 PM by DeliveryValve.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
01-11-2012, 08:02 PM #8w123 Getrag 5 speeds are 717.400. If you find a car with it in the states they are most likely from 1981+ Euro 280E/CE/TE, 300D/CD/TD and 240D.
I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts.
The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400.
Here is one for sale on ebay.de
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-G-300-G..._550wt_698
.
If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing.
Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=2260
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
01-11-2012, 08:51 PM
#9
(01-11-2012, 08:02 PM)DeliveryValve w123 Getrag 5 speeds are 717.400. If you find a car with it in the states they are most likely from 1981+ Euro 280E/CE/TE, 300D/CD/TD and 240D.
I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts.
The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400.
Here is one for sale on ebay.de
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-G-300-G..._550wt_698
If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing.
Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=2260
Good to know, thanks.
Regarding the oil filter housing:
For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing if this project to make an adapter and custom flywheel for a later 5 speed is a go.
Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words):
Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so?
We should make a list of compatible transmissions.
Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter?
Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400?
Robert
This post was last modified: 01-11-2012, 09:00 PM by rdavisinva.
rdavisinva
01-11-2012, 08:51 PM #9(01-11-2012, 08:02 PM)DeliveryValve w123 Getrag 5 speeds are 717.400. If you find a car with it in the states they are most likely from 1981+ Euro 280E/CE/TE, 300D/CD/TD and 240D.
I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts.
The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400.
Here is one for sale on ebay.de
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-G-300-G..._550wt_698
If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing.
Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=2260
Good to know, thanks.
Regarding the oil filter housing:
For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing if this project to make an adapter and custom flywheel for a later 5 speed is a go.
Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words):
Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so?
We should make a list of compatible transmissions.
Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter?
Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400?
Robert
01-12-2012, 01:01 AM
#10
(01-11-2012, 08:51 PM)rdavisinva ...
Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words):
Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so?
We should make a list of compatible transmissions.
Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter?
Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400?
Robert
4 speed shifter will not work with a 5 speed.
Not familiar with the w124 250 as there never was never one here in the states. Closest would be the turbocharged 300D 2.5L. But that one only came in a automatic. I would assume the w124 250 could be had in a Getrag 717.4xx. The numbers would be located on the right side of the trans.
717.420 and 717.400 to my understanding share the same ratios.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
01-12-2012, 01:01 AM #10(01-11-2012, 08:51 PM)rdavisinva ...
Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words):
Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so?
We should make a list of compatible transmissions.
Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter?
Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400?
Robert
4 speed shifter will not work with a 5 speed.
Not familiar with the w124 250 as there never was never one here in the states. Closest would be the turbocharged 300D 2.5L. But that one only came in a automatic. I would assume the w124 250 could be had in a Getrag 717.4xx. The numbers would be located on the right side of the trans.
717.420 and 717.400 to my understanding share the same ratios.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
01-12-2012, 08:06 AM
#12
(01-12-2012, 05:44 AM)aaa The 124 250D transmission would be just like a 190D's transmission, same starter hump issue.
Sorry fat fingered the keyboard and after only 1 beer...
It is a manual transmission attached to a gasoline straight 6 cylinder 250 engine from a 1985 W123 not W124. Assume this engine is externally the same as the 2.8 liter straight 6, but with smaller displacement.
Heard back from the seller and the shift linkage and petal assembly were already removed from the vehicle, but the vin is: WDB12302620095443
Will this help identify the number of gears if it still had the original manual transmission? I'll send him the question regarding the 717.4xx and share the answer.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.d...TQ:GB:1123
Robert
rdavisinva
01-12-2012, 08:06 AM #12(01-12-2012, 05:44 AM)aaa The 124 250D transmission would be just like a 190D's transmission, same starter hump issue.
Sorry fat fingered the keyboard and after only 1 beer...
It is a manual transmission attached to a gasoline straight 6 cylinder 250 engine from a 1985 W123 not W124. Assume this engine is externally the same as the 2.8 liter straight 6, but with smaller displacement.
Heard back from the seller and the shift linkage and petal assembly were already removed from the vehicle, but the vin is: WDB12302620095443
Will this help identify the number of gears if it still had the original manual transmission? I'll send him the question regarding the 717.4xx and share the answer.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.d...TQ:GB:1123
Robert
01-12-2012, 09:10 AM
#13
I'm not sure if the VIN helps, for w123 (since they're old) they're not really present in the MB database so you can easily decode...
A pic of the box would help though...
1982 s123 300TD TurboDiesel (US Spec) in France
Engine doesn't look quite the same as the 2.8... though being a w123 the starter should be on the right.
I'm not sure if the VIN helps, for w123 (since they're old) they're not really present in the MB database so you can easily decode...
A pic of the box would help though...
1982 s123 300TD TurboDiesel (US Spec) in France
01-12-2012, 10:12 AM
#14
However, the w123 250 - Chassis 123.026 engine has a right hand starter and the manual transmission options are...
716.005
716.006
717.400
http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/modif_WD...22_123_026
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
01-12-2012, 10:12 AM #14The vin will not take as vstef_is pointed out.
However, the w123 250 - Chassis 123.026 engine has a right hand starter and the manual transmission options are...
716.005
716.006
717.400
http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/modif_WD...22_123_026
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
01-12-2012, 07:36 PM
#15
BUT
If it is a 717.400 for sale, then we may have found a 5 speed.
Also sent my email and asked for a few pictures of the transmission along with the 3 dot 3 number stamping and the seller replied that he would be able to check the transmission for stampings this weekend.
Appreciate the education you fellow enthusiasts are providing.
Robert
rdavisinva
01-12-2012, 07:36 PM #15Looks like the 716.005 & 716.006 are 4 speeds.
BUT
If it is a 717.400 for sale, then we may have found a 5 speed.
Also sent my email and asked for a few pictures of the transmission along with the 3 dot 3 number stamping and the seller replied that he would be able to check the transmission for stampings this weekend.
Appreciate the education you fellow enthusiasts are providing.
Robert
01-12-2012, 07:58 PM
#16
(01-12-2012, 09:10 AM)vstef_is ... though being a w123 the starter should be on the right....
I missed this. The exception is if the car is a M102 powered 200 or 230/230C, it's starter is on the left and had the 717.401 trans option.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
01-12-2012, 07:58 PM #16^^^ Wish you good luck!
(01-12-2012, 09:10 AM)vstef_is ... though being a w123 the starter should be on the right....
I missed this. The exception is if the car is a M102 powered 200 or 230/230C, it's starter is on the left and had the 717.401 trans option.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
01-12-2012, 09:45 PM
#17
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
01-12-2012, 09:45 PM #17Can we just have somebody with a lot of time on their hands manufacture a bunch of these 5 speeds so its not like a quest for the Holy Grail to get one? lol
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
01-12-2012, 10:28 PM
#18
(01-12-2012, 09:45 PM)sassparilla_kid Can we just have somebody with a lot of time on their hands manufacture a bunch of these 5 speeds so its not like a quest for the Holy Grail to get one? lol
That was the original intent...
Because the aluminum casting that mounts to the back of the OM617 engine block determines the starter location and matches the transmission bolt pattern, it can be removed and a newly machined "flywheel housing & transmission adapter" mounted in it's place. This new adapter would then match the "donor 5 speed manual transmission" (that originally matched a different Mercedes engine with the starter on the left) along with a custom made flywheel that takes the donor clutch (so there are no changes to the transmission shaft) and spaces the clutch out the same distance as the donor. This custom flywheel bolts to the OM617 crankshaft and takes the donor ring gear so the donor starter bolts to the custom adapter and starts the OM617 engine. (had to read that one twice to make sure it was typed correctly)
Then we make a batch of these and buy 1 or 10 suitable donor transmissions in Europe along with the proper shifter (cheaply) and ladies and gentlemen, we have a 5 speed conversion (after you relocate the oil filter, complete the linkage, come up with a transmission mount, and complete any required driveshaft work).
In theory a great idea... in practice a lot of trouble if the holy grail of a 5 speed shows up on eBay UK or eBay DE at a reasonable price of $500 or less, then we might not take "the road less traveled, Robert Frost -er ah sassparilla_kid" and forget the conversion.
Robert
This post was last modified: 01-12-2012, 10:48 PM by rdavisinva.
rdavisinva
01-12-2012, 10:28 PM #18(01-12-2012, 09:45 PM)sassparilla_kid Can we just have somebody with a lot of time on their hands manufacture a bunch of these 5 speeds so its not like a quest for the Holy Grail to get one? lol
That was the original intent...
Because the aluminum casting that mounts to the back of the OM617 engine block determines the starter location and matches the transmission bolt pattern, it can be removed and a newly machined "flywheel housing & transmission adapter" mounted in it's place. This new adapter would then match the "donor 5 speed manual transmission" (that originally matched a different Mercedes engine with the starter on the left) along with a custom made flywheel that takes the donor clutch (so there are no changes to the transmission shaft) and spaces the clutch out the same distance as the donor. This custom flywheel bolts to the OM617 crankshaft and takes the donor ring gear so the donor starter bolts to the custom adapter and starts the OM617 engine. (had to read that one twice to make sure it was typed correctly)
Then we make a batch of these and buy 1 or 10 suitable donor transmissions in Europe along with the proper shifter (cheaply) and ladies and gentlemen, we have a 5 speed conversion (after you relocate the oil filter, complete the linkage, come up with a transmission mount, and complete any required driveshaft work).
In theory a great idea... in practice a lot of trouble if the holy grail of a 5 speed shows up on eBay UK or eBay DE at a reasonable price of $500 or less, then we might not take "the road less traveled, Robert Frost -er ah sassparilla_kid" and forget the conversion.
Robert
01-13-2012, 04:04 PM
#19
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
01-13-2012, 04:04 PM #19Why does the oil filter need relocating? Im guessing it has something to do with linkages and stuff
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
01-13-2012, 04:44 PM
#20
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
01-13-2012, 04:44 PM #20The starter is on the opposite side it you move the starter to the LH side on an om617/0m616 it will interfere with the oil filter housing
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
01-13-2012, 05:50 PM
#21
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
01-13-2012, 05:50 PM #21Oh ok yeah I forgot about the starter. So where does the oil filter housing get relocated to?
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
01-13-2012, 07:05 PM
#22
(01-13-2012, 05:50 PM)sassparilla_kid Oh ok yeah I forgot about the starter. So where does the oil filter housing get relocated to?
You probably didn't see it in post 9 as follows:
Regarding the oil filter housing:
For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing.
rdavisinva
01-13-2012, 07:05 PM #22(01-13-2012, 05:50 PM)sassparilla_kid Oh ok yeah I forgot about the starter. So where does the oil filter housing get relocated to?
You probably didn't see it in post 9 as follows:
Regarding the oil filter housing:
For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing.
01-13-2012, 08:32 PM
#23
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
01-13-2012, 08:32 PM #23I guess a spin-on type filter would work, I kind of like the idea of the canister style, its big, easy to get to, and changing doesn't involve spilling half a filter worth of oil on myself
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
01-13-2012, 10:05 PM
#24
On the other side of the yard were a few Chevy S-10 pickups with 5-Speeds and further away were some Ford Mustangs.
One S-10 and one mustang had the engine removed, so the transmissions were exposed and available for study.
After taking some rough measurements and looking over all 3 vehicles...
The Mustang shifter is almost at the rear of the tail housing so the shifter is too far back, see post #1,
BUT
The S-10 shifter is right behind the main gear housing at the front of the T-5 tail housing.
According to my rough measuring, there is a distinct possibility that the S-10 shifter would fall close to the stock W123 location.
The disappointing aspect was the starter bungs in the both the Chevy and Ford belhousings are not in an acceptable orientation for the right side Mercedes starter.
This leaves me thinking that since the belhousings bolt onto the T-5, the best option would be to cast a new T-5 belhousing that would mate up to the stock Mercedes OM617 aluminum casting off the back of the engine. This would be more expensive to produce and could become a show stopper...
But if we had a belhousing, the custom flywheel could take the Mercedes ring gear and the matching clutch for the T-5 input shaft and have the starter bung in the correct location.
The custom T-5 belhousing could also facilitate the starter bolts coming from the front to attach the Mercedes starter.
Then there is the custom rear transmission mount and driveshaft to sort out, but it seems feasible.
Obviously more detailed research is needed.
Wonder if anyone else would be interested in this as a kit, if we made a dozen or so to spread the cost...
Again, thinking out loud.
Robert
rdavisinva
01-13-2012, 10:05 PM #24Today went by the pick-n-pull and there was a 1983 MB 300D automatic in one of the import rows.
On the other side of the yard were a few Chevy S-10 pickups with 5-Speeds and further away were some Ford Mustangs.
One S-10 and one mustang had the engine removed, so the transmissions were exposed and available for study.
After taking some rough measurements and looking over all 3 vehicles...
The Mustang shifter is almost at the rear of the tail housing so the shifter is too far back, see post #1,
BUT
The S-10 shifter is right behind the main gear housing at the front of the T-5 tail housing.
According to my rough measuring, there is a distinct possibility that the S-10 shifter would fall close to the stock W123 location.
The disappointing aspect was the starter bungs in the both the Chevy and Ford belhousings are not in an acceptable orientation for the right side Mercedes starter.
This leaves me thinking that since the belhousings bolt onto the T-5, the best option would be to cast a new T-5 belhousing that would mate up to the stock Mercedes OM617 aluminum casting off the back of the engine. This would be more expensive to produce and could become a show stopper...
But if we had a belhousing, the custom flywheel could take the Mercedes ring gear and the matching clutch for the T-5 input shaft and have the starter bung in the correct location.
The custom T-5 belhousing could also facilitate the starter bolts coming from the front to attach the Mercedes starter.
Then there is the custom rear transmission mount and driveshaft to sort out, but it seems feasible.
Obviously more detailed research is needed.
Wonder if anyone else would be interested in this as a kit, if we made a dozen or so to spread the cost...
Again, thinking out loud.
Robert
01-14-2012, 01:51 AM
#25
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
01-14-2012, 01:51 AM #25I might be interested. Also, the expense was going to be gone through to cast new bellhousings, why not just just cast new ones for mercedes transmissions that that may/may not require as much work to adapt transmission mounts, driveshafts, etc.? Is there any reason other than scarcity of these as opposed to the chevys?
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
01-14-2012, 09:59 AM
#26
(01-14-2012, 01:51 AM)sassparilla_kid I might be interested. Also, the expense was going to be gone through to cast new bellhousings, why not just just cast new ones for mercedes transmissions that that may/may not require as much work to adapt transmission mounts, driveshafts, etc.? Is there any reason other than scarcity of these as opposed to the chevys?
Very good question.
I could be wrong, but was under the impression that 99% of the available Mercedes manual 5 speed transmissions were one piece main castings without a removable belhousing. I think if these later 5 speeds with the starter on the left side had a removable belhousing, someone else probably would have made such a belhousing adapter long ago. That's my thinking and with the Mercedes I am still a student of learning so again could be wrong.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge than we currently have could verify...
The T-5, manufactured by Borg Warner, used in Chevy's, Fords, and lots of other marques is cheap and available right here in our USA junkyards. Parts are everywhere and most re-builders have them exchange or outright.
After talking to a local 300TD owner who has been looking for a year and my own 6 month search, the only suitable Mercedes 5 speeds, that I saw were for G-Wagons and wouldn't have found those if it hadn't been for the guidance from DeliveryValve who turned me on to the 717.420. You'd probably have several thousand in a complete kit if you sourced a 717.420 in Germany or the UK and then you'd still have to locate a 5 speed shifter and make the rod mods along with the driveshaft and rear mount changes seen on some of the conversion links.
So am going to look into the costs associated with casting a belhousing for the BW T-5 if more detailed measurements prove it is possible.
Robert
rdavisinva
01-14-2012, 09:59 AM #26(01-14-2012, 01:51 AM)sassparilla_kid I might be interested. Also, the expense was going to be gone through to cast new bellhousings, why not just just cast new ones for mercedes transmissions that that may/may not require as much work to adapt transmission mounts, driveshafts, etc.? Is there any reason other than scarcity of these as opposed to the chevys?
Very good question.
I could be wrong, but was under the impression that 99% of the available Mercedes manual 5 speed transmissions were one piece main castings without a removable belhousing. I think if these later 5 speeds with the starter on the left side had a removable belhousing, someone else probably would have made such a belhousing adapter long ago. That's my thinking and with the Mercedes I am still a student of learning so again could be wrong.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge than we currently have could verify...
The T-5, manufactured by Borg Warner, used in Chevy's, Fords, and lots of other marques is cheap and available right here in our USA junkyards. Parts are everywhere and most re-builders have them exchange or outright.
After talking to a local 300TD owner who has been looking for a year and my own 6 month search, the only suitable Mercedes 5 speeds, that I saw were for G-Wagons and wouldn't have found those if it hadn't been for the guidance from DeliveryValve who turned me on to the 717.420. You'd probably have several thousand in a complete kit if you sourced a 717.420 in Germany or the UK and then you'd still have to locate a 5 speed shifter and make the rod mods along with the driveshaft and rear mount changes seen on some of the conversion links.
So am going to look into the costs associated with casting a belhousing for the BW T-5 if more detailed measurements prove it is possible.
Robert
01-22-2012, 01:16 PM
#27
http://www.4x4labs.com/products/diesel-conversions/
These guys make adapters to use either a toyota W56 trans or GM SM420, SM465, NV3500, NV4500, NV5600 trasmissions. Obviously the MBZ 5-speed would be preferable but if you want a 5-speed this may be the way to go, and as noted above parts would be readily available.
'98 E300 Turbo "Juliette" - Brabus wheels and almost all the options a w210 could have
'87 300D Turbo "Roxanne" - #22 head - 400E brakes - EGR Delete - 17" Staggered AMG 5 spoke rims from CLK500 - 5 Spd manual
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
I may have missed this, if already posted just ignore this..
http://www.4x4labs.com/products/diesel-conversions/
These guys make adapters to use either a toyota W56 trans or GM SM420, SM465, NV3500, NV4500, NV5600 trasmissions. Obviously the MBZ 5-speed would be preferable but if you want a 5-speed this may be the way to go, and as noted above parts would be readily available.
'98 E300 Turbo "Juliette" - Brabus wheels and almost all the options a w210 could have
'87 300D Turbo "Roxanne" - #22 head - 400E brakes - EGR Delete - 17" Staggered AMG 5 spoke rims from CLK500 - 5 Spd manual
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
01-23-2012, 12:17 AM
#28
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
01-23-2012, 12:17 AM #28It seems like these guys are designing/building them for use in toyota trucks. Im curious how much work would need to be done to get the trans to fit in the mercedes body?
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
06-16-2012, 06:17 AM
#30
![[Image: diesel.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/diesel.jpg)
But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons. Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on... There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400. And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild? I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too). Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater.
With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box....
![[Image: 5g11.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/5g11.jpg)
W123 4spd | W124/190 5spd | W123 5spd | W123 auto
I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive. At least in my country.
DiseaselWeasel
06-16-2012, 06:17 AM #30Re: starter relocation: you could also use a /8 240D 3.0 block with the oil filter housing up front.
But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons. Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on... There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400. And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild? I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too). Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater.
With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box....
W123 4spd | W124/190 5spd | W123 5spd | W123 auto
I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive. At least in my country.
06-19-2012, 05:09 PM
#31
(06-13-2012, 12:52 PM)808morgan Try this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercede-Benz-W12...500wt_1362
Thanks for the link.
They have everything, but the only drawback is the transmission is a 4-speed. Would like to make the change to a 5-speed.
Robert
(06-16-2012, 06:17 AM)DiseaselWeasel Re: starter relocation: you could also use a /8 240D 3.0 block with the oil filter housing up front.
But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons. Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on... There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400. And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild? I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too). Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater.
With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box....
W123 4spd | W124/190 5spd | W123 5spd | W123 auto
I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive. At least in my country.
Thanks for the pictures and interesting info. Had no idea there was a OM617 with oil filter that far forward.
Robert
This post was last modified: 06-19-2012, 05:19 PM by rdavisinva.
rdavisinva
06-19-2012, 05:09 PM #31(06-13-2012, 12:52 PM)808morgan Try this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercede-Benz-W12...500wt_1362
Thanks for the link.
They have everything, but the only drawback is the transmission is a 4-speed. Would like to make the change to a 5-speed.
Robert
(06-16-2012, 06:17 AM)DiseaselWeasel Re: starter relocation: you could also use a /8 240D 3.0 block with the oil filter housing up front.
But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons. Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on... There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400. And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild? I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too). Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater.
With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box....
W123 4spd | W124/190 5spd | W123 5spd | W123 auto
I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive. At least in my country.
Thanks for the pictures and interesting info. Had no idea there was a OM617 with oil filter that far forward.
Robert
06-20-2012, 07:12 AM
#32
Though mine came out of a W123, but I'm not sure if it was original fitment to a W123. Also note: MW pump with external oil feed!
DiseaselWeasel
06-20-2012, 07:12 AM #32It's the OM617 for the W115/W115 chassis. The filter was moved to the other position with the W123 for 'easyer maintainance'. Though mine came out of a W123, but I'm not sure if it was original fitment to a W123. Also note: MW pump with external oil feed!
06-22-2012, 12:00 AM
#33
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
as a stupid american, i'm also interested in the possibility of domestic transmissions - not a stickler for originality, especially with a part that's unseen. that said, how much less practical would it be to identify a six speed donor? as long as one is going to the trouble of fabricating an adapter, rejiggering the linkages, shortening the drive shaft, etc... surely a suitable six would be in some wrecked muscle car or luxury sedan. reasons why not?
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
06-24-2012, 10:19 PM
#34
(01-11-2012, 10:42 AM)rdavisinva Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info.
Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123?
Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7.
Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit.
Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123.
There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe.
I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud:
Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into?
Robert
Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and:
The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back.
Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter.
The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage.
Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert
You need a 123260200188, the direct replacement transmission with the starter on the correct side for a 617 engine, good luck though! I've been looking and the only place I can find one is through MB and they're $3k+ core.
Austincarnut
06-24-2012, 10:19 PM #34(01-11-2012, 10:42 AM)rdavisinva Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info.
Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123?
Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7.
Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit.
Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123.
There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe.
I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud:
Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into?
Robert
Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and:
The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back.
Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter.
The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage.
Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert
You need a 123260200188, the direct replacement transmission with the starter on the correct side for a 617 engine, good luck though! I've been looking and the only place I can find one is through MB and they're $3k+ core.
05-08-2013, 09:04 AM
#35
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-4366.html
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
here y'a go
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-4366.html
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
09-12-2014, 06:22 PM
#36
I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use??
In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same!
What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel?
Thanks
Old thread but is the only one I found that have some information regarding the subject I want to ask:
I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use??
In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same!
What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel?
Thanks
09-12-2014, 09:00 PM
#37
(09-12-2014, 06:22 PM)gaiex Old thread but is the only one I found that have some information regarding the subject I want to ask:
I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use??
In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same!
What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel?
Thanks
The manual flywheel is different from the auto.
We have lots of extra auto flywheels.
They will fit in a flat rate box, and will send you one for the cost of shipping with the flex plate if you need it.
We also have 2 spare auto transmissions if you want one.
I would be interested in your 4 speed when it becomes surplus to your needs.
Robert
rdavisinva
09-12-2014, 09:00 PM #37(09-12-2014, 06:22 PM)gaiex Old thread but is the only one I found that have some information regarding the subject I want to ask:
I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use??
In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same!
What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel?
Thanks
The manual flywheel is different from the auto.
We have lots of extra auto flywheels.
They will fit in a flat rate box, and will send you one for the cost of shipping with the flex plate if you need it.
We also have 2 spare auto transmissions if you want one.
I would be interested in your 4 speed when it becomes surplus to your needs.
Robert
pdots3521
Unregistered
09-14-2023, 02:06 PM
#38
(01-11-2012, 10:42 AM)rdavisinva Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info.
Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123?
Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7.
Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit.
Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123.
There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe.
I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud:
Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into?
Robert
Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and:
The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back.
Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter.
The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage.
Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert
The late 80's and early 90's chevy s10's had a different tail housing for the t5s, the late 80s had a gear driven spedometer sensor while the early 90s models had an electronic spedometer sensor.
Edit : in the first picture it's noted as a 1994+ transmission, but 1994 was the first year of the second gen s10 which never came with the 2.5l I4, so the years are wrong on that, but that is the trans that you had asked about.
pdots3521
09-14-2023, 02:06 PM #38(01-11-2012, 10:42 AM)rdavisinva Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info.
Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123?
Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7.
Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit.
Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123.
There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe.
I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud:
Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into?
Robert
Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and:
The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back.
Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter.
The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage.
Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert
The late 80's and early 90's chevy s10's had a different tail housing for the t5s, the late 80s had a gear driven spedometer sensor while the early 90s models had an electronic spedometer sensor.
Edit : in the first picture it's noted as a 1994+ transmission, but 1994 was the first year of the second gen s10 which never came with the 2.5l I4, so the years are wrong on that, but that is the trans that you had asked about.
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