my first shot at a thread
my first shot at a thread
Hotrodbenz
01-15-2012, 10:03 AM #1i noticed a lot of guys running hx40s and such and was wondering if any one has thrown out the idea of small twins on a om617. i have a stock turbo and a h1c off a cummins the motor is going in a diffrent vehicle for the reason i just cant love my mercedes with all the rust and sittin like a trophy truck on ballon tires. whats your thoughts?
but i dont think any one has run dual turbos. not sure it would do that much really.
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
iheartboost
01-15-2012, 11:42 AM #2chop a coil or two off. then get a set of clk lightweights and put non bubble tires on it
but i dont think any one has run dual turbos. not sure it would do that much really.
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
Hotrodbenz
01-15-2012, 12:01 PM #3you would be suprized i always read that you could olny do like 15psi but then i see 20 and 30 i could make 30 on twins i mess with cummins and my mercedes is just a toy and gets me to school and shit so the real gains would be in the low egts and lots of fuel
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
01-15-2012, 01:54 PM #4I guess it depends on what model mercedes and how many cylinders it has
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
Hotrodbenz
01-15-2012, 02:52 PM #5its a 300d with the om617 ive got the room and plan for it to go in a light pickup ford courier or chevy luv mabey a chevy pickup if its much lighter than the benz and im going to upgrade to a t56 6 speed from a camaro just for the sheer fun involved with it hehe
(01-15-2012, 02:52 PM)Hotrodbenz its a 300d with the om617 ive got the room and plan for it to go in a light pickup ford courier or chevy luv mabey a chevy pickup if its much lighter than the benz and im going to upgrade to a t56 6 speed from a camaro just for the sheer fun involved with it hehe
If you really want to do compounds, get the pump reworked with new elements $750-$1500, full rebuild (ditto moneywise), GM adapter kit & fitting (ditto moneywise) & then stuff it into an S-10 for a real fun ride.
I am not in any way trying to discourage you. The pump is only capable of so much with stock elements, even after messing with internal adjustments.
If you want a real powerhouse, get a 606 engine with a 603 pump & add 7mm elements. Then, think about compounds or a big VNT. You can also find members that are doing turbo/supercharger compounds.
Ed
yankneck696
01-15-2012, 07:06 PM #6(01-15-2012, 02:52 PM)Hotrodbenz its a 300d with the om617 ive got the room and plan for it to go in a light pickup ford courier or chevy luv mabey a chevy pickup if its much lighter than the benz and im going to upgrade to a t56 6 speed from a camaro just for the sheer fun involved with it hehe
If you really want to do compounds, get the pump reworked with new elements $750-$1500, full rebuild (ditto moneywise), GM adapter kit & fitting (ditto moneywise) & then stuff it into an S-10 for a real fun ride.
I am not in any way trying to discourage you. The pump is only capable of so much with stock elements, even after messing with internal adjustments.
If you want a real powerhouse, get a 606 engine with a 603 pump & add 7mm elements. Then, think about compounds or a big VNT. You can also find members that are doing turbo/supercharger compounds.
Ed
Hotrodbenz
01-15-2012, 09:25 PM #7i see can i build my own pump or is that not possible i do have a full machine shop that is how im building my adapter and stuff like that
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
01-16-2012, 06:13 PM #8Are you taking about twin turbos or compound turbos? twins would be an odd setup on a 5 cylinder some one has done a compound set up IE big turbo feeding smaller turbo
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
You can learn to adjust your pump, look up theory on m and m/w pump on this forum. As far as changing your own elements, the problem is you need a machine to test the ip after doing so. there have been some threads on putting the ip in a lathe to run it for testing to at least calibrate the amount per element. I would be a bit careful about this,think this is something better to learn from someone before doing it on your own.
jonbobshinigin
01-18-2012, 09:32 AM #10The answer is no. You cannot set your own pump up for more power efficiently. It requires lots of knowledge plus a $100,000 Bosch Tuning Bench. You can squeak out a few more HP by adjusting the stock pump but to make any real power improvements, you need a Tuned pump.
Hotrodbenz
01-19-2012, 09:04 AM #11you are so smart i didnt even know that...i know i cannot tune the pump on my own i have a shop willing to tune it but i can build it and they can tune it
We have yet to find a stateside tuning facility for pumps, which is the part that we cannot do ourselves, so if you have success, please keep us posted.
jonbobshinigin
01-19-2012, 09:22 AM #12Wow, that had a little bite. My assumption was based on your 6 posts...not because I am trying to sound smart. An HX40 is a lot for a 617...I do not know that I have seen one on anythng but a 60x myself. I doubt the internals could hold up to what one would have to get it to run an HX40.
We have yet to find a stateside tuning facility for pumps, which is the part that we cannot do ourselves, so if you have success, please keep us posted.
(01-15-2012, 09:25 PM)Hotrodbenz i see can i build my own pump or is that not possible i do have a full machine shop that is how im building my adapter and stuff like that
If it was that easy to build your own pump don't you think the other machinists out there, such as myself, would have done it already? The elements in the pump are precision ground and hardened pieces that have to be lapped to match each other perfectly. You would also need an M pump, the stock MW pump does not have larger elements available for it (yet)
And someone asking about compound or twin turbos on a 617 should be a little more polite to the established members of this site. Do a search, there are plenty of threads on that topic.
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
01-19-2012, 10:59 AM #13(01-15-2012, 09:25 PM)Hotrodbenz i see can i build my own pump or is that not possible i do have a full machine shop that is how im building my adapter and stuff like that
If it was that easy to build your own pump don't you think the other machinists out there, such as myself, would have done it already? The elements in the pump are precision ground and hardened pieces that have to be lapped to match each other perfectly. You would also need an M pump, the stock MW pump does not have larger elements available for it (yet)
And someone asking about compound or twin turbos on a 617 should be a little more polite to the established members of this site. Do a search, there are plenty of threads on that topic.
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
You have a machine shop, but what are it's capabilities? presision grinding? I mean in microns not just thou, or 10 thou. If so then maybe you can do your own elements. After all somebody made them to begin with, it really just takes the right equipment and know how. This has gone through my mind, but I know I do not have the right equipment to do it, even though I have a reasonably good machine shop.
You have a machine shop, but what are it's capabilities? presision grinding? I mean in microns not just thou, or 10 thou. If so then maybe you can do your own elements. After all somebody made them to begin with, it really just takes the right equipment and know how. This has gone through my mind, but I know I do not have the right equipment to do it, even though I have a reasonably good machine shop.
Hotrodbenz
01-22-2012, 11:28 AM #15Let me clear up what im asking I have found larger elements I don't want to disclose til I know they will work they are a little pricey I also may have found a pump tuner but there again I don't want to get hopes up til I know they can pull it off...that being said my Benz died this week I blet the front pump seal out of the trans and hadn't touched the internal pump adjustments just puttin some boost in her 20psi and never built heat
(01-22-2012, 11:28 AM)Hotrodbenz ...my Benz died this week I blew the front pump seal out of the trans and hadn't touched the internal pump adjustments just puttin some boost in her 20psi and never built heat
Yes, this is why, before I go for raised hp and torque, I want to beef up my transmission and possibly the rest of the driveline rearward too.
I have a Euro 500SE tranny (722.311 02 179271) which I can cannibalize for parts to strengthen my own transmission, but the question is still hanging out there, unanswered, in my project thread: how much torque and horsepower can the stock W123 300D driveshaft, differential, and CV axles safely handle?
Gone but not forgotten: two W123 sedans and two W124 wagons.
W124 1987 300TD wagon, for sale, $1000 (some assembly required).
JustPassinThru
01-22-2012, 12:05 PM #16(01-22-2012, 11:28 AM)Hotrodbenz ...my Benz died this week I blew the front pump seal out of the trans and hadn't touched the internal pump adjustments just puttin some boost in her 20psi and never built heat
Yes, this is why, before I go for raised hp and torque, I want to beef up my transmission and possibly the rest of the driveline rearward too.
I have a Euro 500SE tranny (722.311 02 179271) which I can cannibalize for parts to strengthen my own transmission, but the question is still hanging out there, unanswered, in my project thread: how much torque and horsepower can the stock W123 300D driveshaft, differential, and CV axles safely handle?
Gone but not forgotten: two W123 sedans and two W124 wagons.
W124 1987 300TD wagon, for sale, $1000 (some assembly required).
(01-22-2012, 11:28 AM)Hotrodbenz Let me clear up what im asking, I have found larger elements, I don't want to disclose til I know they will work, they are a little pricey. I also may have found a pump tuner, but there again I don't want to get hopes up til I know they can pull it off...
$200.00 ea is pricey, $70.00 to $100.00 ea is middle of the road, $13.00 ea is cheap.
10mms are very common, the 8mms are in very little demand so not many are produced. It is common for a dealer to say yes I can get them, only to find out three months later that he can't because his source is out of them and they are not sure when they will be making more.
They will make some for you, if you order 50 of them or some such amount. I hope you are not holding your breath.
The only real problem I have found with the cheap elements is the way they cut the end of injection helix, basically with a cut off wheel. I have modified the helix to reduce the output on a set of 10mms for a MW, when measured, each elements helix was different than the others out of the box, once reground, they balanced up very nicely.
I am on the edge of my seat to hear the mystery source of the elements and tuner, many have clamed the same, only to never be heard from again.
(01-22-2012, 11:28 AM)Hotrodbenz Let me clear up what im asking, I have found larger elements, I don't want to disclose til I know they will work, they are a little pricey. I also may have found a pump tuner, but there again I don't want to get hopes up til I know they can pull it off...
$200.00 ea is pricey, $70.00 to $100.00 ea is middle of the road, $13.00 ea is cheap.
10mms are very common, the 8mms are in very little demand so not many are produced. It is common for a dealer to say yes I can get them, only to find out three months later that he can't because his source is out of them and they are not sure when they will be making more.
They will make some for you, if you order 50 of them or some such amount. I hope you are not holding your breath.
The only real problem I have found with the cheap elements is the way they cut the end of injection helix, basically with a cut off wheel. I have modified the helix to reduce the output on a set of 10mms for a MW, when measured, each elements helix was different than the others out of the box, once reground, they balanced up very nicely.
I am on the edge of my seat to hear the mystery source of the elements and tuner, many have clamed the same, only to never be heard from again.
Hotrodbenz
01-22-2012, 04:01 PM #18the guys doing mine have plenty mw pump experiance and they are 10mm elements i still dont know what it is going to cost yet but hes pretty sure we can use some elements that he has in stock by accadent but i thought 100 each is pricey
Hotrodbenz, if you have a source for 10MM elements & peeps that have MW knowledge, you should go for it. But, I would read the report that OM616 has done on IPs. You may ask your IP guy to check out the forum & have a very captive audience.
Ed
yankneck696
01-22-2012, 08:48 PM #19OM, do you follow the 4btswaps site? There is a guy that has a 6.0L Perkins in a older Ford. It's out of a semi. MW pump at 410 CC output. It's the older Perkins with the 4 port intake. I am not sure I have heard previous mention of that MW aplication.
Hotrodbenz, if you have a source for 10MM elements & peeps that have MW knowledge, you should go for it. But, I would read the report that OM616 has done on IPs. You may ask your IP guy to check out the forum & have a very captive audience.
Ed
jonbobshinigin
01-23-2012, 12:56 AM #20I apologize if my response was unclear or seemed rash. My intention was to give you some basics that has already been well documented on here. It is hard to track down and find some info on here, especially when buried in a 30 page thread...so most of us are simply giving you shortcut answers. If you have a source for elements or tuning stateside, I do not see how disclosing it will harm anything. Lots of guys know their stuff here but simply do not have access to the machinery. Right now the guy who can serve us best is Diesel Meiken. He has been the most willing to communicate with us and follow through with the task at hand. Communication alone puts him ahead of Myna in my mind, as I hear it is difficult to communicae with them.
Om616 send me 800 dollars and I'll have my pump done and then will show what was possible right not I'm between jobs and in school and can't spare the cash to get it done or my pump would be on the bench right now
Hotrodbenz
01-23-2012, 08:41 AM #21Tompson diesel in Tulsa has rebuilt and tuned many m and mw pumps and tier tuner says he can do it
Om616 send me 800 dollars and I'll have my pump done and then will show what was possible right not I'm between jobs and in school and can't spare the cash to get it done or my pump would be on the bench right now
(01-23-2012, 08:41 AM)Hotrodbenz Om616 send me 800 dollars and I'll have my pump done and then will show what was possible right not I'm between jobs and in school and can't spare the cash to get it done or my pump would be on the bench right now
?????????????????????..........What?????????????
(01-22-2012, 08:48 PM)yankneck696 OM, do you follow the 4btswaps site? There is a guy that has a 6.0L Perkins in a older Ford. It's out of a semi. MW pump at 410 CC output. It's the older Perkins with the 4 port intake. I am not sure I have heard previous mention of that MW aplication.
Ed
Never heard of the sight. You can get 12mm elements that can be shoe horned into the MW housing, (after some machining to the housing), so volume is not a problem if you can burn it.
The MW pump sections used in many different applications with different governors.
(01-23-2012, 08:41 AM)Hotrodbenz Om616 send me 800 dollars and I'll have my pump done and then will show what was possible right not I'm between jobs and in school and can't spare the cash to get it done or my pump would be on the bench right now
?????????????????????..........What?????????????
(01-22-2012, 08:48 PM)yankneck696 OM, do you follow the 4btswaps site? There is a guy that has a 6.0L Perkins in a older Ford. It's out of a semi. MW pump at 410 CC output. It's the older Perkins with the 4 port intake. I am not sure I have heard previous mention of that MW aplication.
Ed
Never heard of the sight. You can get 12mm elements that can be shoe horned into the MW housing, (after some machining to the housing), so volume is not a problem if you can burn it.
The MW pump sections used in many different applications with different governors.
Hotrodbenz
01-23-2012, 05:13 PM #23im just saying for 800 he said he would sell me a 10mm pump and pull the elements out and put them in my pump and run it on the bench and tune it in
The MW pump sections used in many different applications with different governors.
www.4btswaps.com Excellent site that has people that really know their stuff. Based on Cummins, but has categories for most diesel engines.
Ed
yankneck696
01-23-2012, 06:15 PM #24Never heard of the sight. You can get 12mm elements that can be shoe horned into the MW housing, (after some machining to the housing), so volume is not a problem if you can burn it.
The MW pump sections used in many different applications with different governors.
www.4btswaps.com Excellent site that has people that really know their stuff. Based on Cummins, but has categories for most diesel engines.
Ed
(01-23-2012, 05:13 PM)Hotrodbenz im just saying for 800 he said he would sell me a 10mm pump and pull the elements out and put them in my pump and run it on the bench and tune it in
Oh, for a second there I thought you wanted me to spend $800.00 for a pump for myself. No need for me to have someone else do it, I have built a "modified" 10mm MW a while ago and will be doing a couple more soon. I’m not bragging….well I guess I am…LOL
(01-23-2012, 05:13 PM)Hotrodbenz im just saying for 800 he said he would sell me a 10mm pump and pull the elements out and put them in my pump and run it on the bench and tune it in
Oh, for a second there I thought you wanted me to spend $800.00 for a pump for myself. No need for me to have someone else do it, I have built a "modified" 10mm MW a while ago and will be doing a couple more soon. I’m not bragging….well I guess I am…LOL
Hotrodbenz
01-23-2012, 09:53 PM #26so when i said 10mm elements why was there such an issue in your mind at that rate i could get head studs and give her 60psi and an intercooler and make around 400hp for not much cash in reailty
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
01-23-2012, 10:04 PM #27The rods wouldn't hold up. The general belief/experience is somewhere around 45 psi is the breaking point. And to get that much horsepower you would need serious head work, porting, bigger valves, different cam ect. The old 617's don't flow very well
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
carlitosgy6
01-23-2012, 11:01 PM #28i dont think 400 hp is a logic number for an engine designed in the sixties,you will need to remake the whole engine for that
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
01-24-2012, 02:02 PM #2960psi, head studs, and high hp. Sounds to me like a bt engine mentality. The 617's need more work then just that to make 400hp. Feasible but not that easy. Grab a newer om motor and you will see more easily gains of hp.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
I thought I saw someone made 250hp on a 616, but have not found that thread anywhere, anyone know about it? or was I dreaming? I am not trying for that much just was thinking, and wondering what they did to get to that power level, and if it survived for long.
oh lets try for 400hp in a 616.....
I thought I saw someone made 250hp on a 616, but have not found that thread anywhere, anyone know about it? or was I dreaming? I am not trying for that much just was thinking, and wondering what they did to get to that power level, and if it survived for long.
(01-24-2012, 06:23 PM)ronnie oh lets try for 400hp in a 616.....
I thought I saw someone made 250hp on a 616, but have not found that thread anywhere, anyone know about it? or was I dreaming? I am not trying for that much just was thinking, and wondering what they did to get to that power level, and if it survived for long.
Here is the link http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=2163
(01-24-2012, 06:23 PM)ronnie oh lets try for 400hp in a 616.....
I thought I saw someone made 250hp on a 616, but have not found that thread anywhere, anyone know about it? or was I dreaming? I am not trying for that much just was thinking, and wondering what they did to get to that power level, and if it survived for long.
Here is the link http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=2163
Ed
yankneck696
01-24-2012, 08:23 PM #32I miss that thread..... It's the one I got blessed with my "Warning Level"...
Ed
Yes it is cummins mentality mine is an isb 24v tho not a bt I just bought a 12v truck to build a half ton 66 chevy cummins outta, my 24v has stacked boxes 100horse sticks hx35 5in exaust cold air ats stage 3 and a raptor 150 it's in a 99 2500 qclb 4x4 on 35s and pulls a 14.5 in the quarter that's why I bought the benzo for my 100 mi commute every day and the more I talk about getting rid of it the more I relize I love it too much to tear it apart Its nuts got 3in exaust cold air and Alda pulled out I keep thinking I need to turn the pump up and I'll be plenty happy after the 4speed swap and some coils chopped
Hotrodbenz
01-24-2012, 11:50 PM #33Whell poop guess I'll just keep it around say...40psi and give her a shot of pane to liven her up idk how long if at all it will last but I'll be sure to take lots of pics of the build/distraction then talk my buddy into cnc billet rods haha jk maybe Ill just build another cummins
Yes it is cummins mentality mine is an isb 24v tho not a bt I just bought a 12v truck to build a half ton 66 chevy cummins outta, my 24v has stacked boxes 100horse sticks hx35 5in exaust cold air ats stage 3 and a raptor 150 it's in a 99 2500 qclb 4x4 on 35s and pulls a 14.5 in the quarter that's why I bought the benzo for my 100 mi commute every day and the more I talk about getting rid of it the more I relize I love it too much to tear it apart Its nuts got 3in exaust cold air and Alda pulled out I keep thinking I need to turn the pump up and I'll be plenty happy after the 4speed swap and some coils chopped
jonbobshinigin
01-25-2012, 12:28 AM #34If you have the skills and desire...the 60X bandwagon is the one to be on :-)
Hotrodbenz
01-25-2012, 09:48 AM #35The 60x are expensive round hear in Oklahoma and there's so few of them
truck sounds like fun. I would love to build a 4bt in any chassis still searching for what to put it in.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
01-26-2012, 12:37 PM #36find a rust bucket 300d 88, sell the parts off it and build the motor on the side. I purchased just my motor under a grand for my swap.
truck sounds like fun. I would love to build a 4bt in any chassis still searching for what to put it in.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
Hotrodbenz
01-30-2012, 09:32 AM #38Both my cummins are very fun trucks my 24v on 35in tires and a built to the hilt auto will rip I can't keep the tires hooked up under it
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