The Gods have favored me
The Gods have favored me
![[Image: 240DStripes.jpg]](http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/mabusonline/240DStripes.jpg)
When you find out you have a limited slip already installed in your car
.There's something that never happens (to me).
Now I've gotta fix that worn out axle back there before it wears out my LSD, and I loves my LSD!
Anyone else found themselves to be so blessed? Sorry about the goofy title, been playing a lot of Age of Mythology lately, and the computer's always 'talking smack' in that manner.
CID Vicious
06-09-2009, 10:11 PM #1It's always a good day to be an enthusiast for the car you already own, especially:
When you find out you have a limited slip already installed in your car .
There's something that never happens (to me).
Now I've gotta fix that worn out axle back there before it wears out my LSD, and I loves my LSD!
Anyone else found themselves to be so blessed? Sorry about the goofy title, been playing a lot of Age of Mythology lately, and the computer's always 'talking smack' in that manner.
I had a 4x4 Chevy truck cobbled together from trucks sitting around the yard of an old friend of my dad's before I got a hold of it. 3x4 would be more to the point - the rear was a huge one off of a tow truck with stupid gears, and with 4wd engaged it spun three tires - the back axle wasn't a limited slip like the front axle was. Even with 4wd it's not going to make both wheels spin.
As for doing that I chose the sand because I have a bad axle that I'm not going to risk breaking to go 'see, told ya', sorry. I live 4 miles from the closest gas station in a desert, just clutch-dropping it in the sand was kind of stupid since I don't have a backup vehicle if something broke.
CID Vicious
06-10-2009, 01:56 AM #3Doesn't matter. Peg-leg axles spin one tire, not two. I learned to drive in Florida downpours, New York snow and ice came shortly after, and my cousin used to weld his diff for a reason in his Enduro car, and it wasn't because the car was spinning both tires in the dirt. Front drive or rear, if you don't have a limited, you're spinning one tire. My 'spare tire' is a studded snow tire and this car came from Oregon. Smart people who have RWD and have to drive in snow part of the year check the LSD option when ordering their car, and the original owner of this car must've been a smart fella.
I had a 4x4 Chevy truck cobbled together from trucks sitting around the yard of an old friend of my dad's before I got a hold of it. 3x4 would be more to the point - the rear was a huge one off of a tow truck with stupid gears, and with 4wd engaged it spun three tires - the back axle wasn't a limited slip like the front axle was. Even with 4wd it's not going to make both wheels spin.
As for doing that I chose the sand because I have a bad axle that I'm not going to risk breaking to go 'see, told ya', sorry. I live 4 miles from the closest gas station in a desert, just clutch-dropping it in the sand was kind of stupid since I don't have a backup vehicle if something broke.
I've had an inkling since I had this car that it had one because of the way the rear gets 'confused' over rough pavement under power, due to the fact that one of the axles is worn out and has a lot of slack in it. An open diff wouldn't exhibit that kind of behavior, as it wouldn't be trying to keep the two wheels spinning at the same speed. My former 'boss' was a factory trained Mercedes technician when these cars were new, and he said that while it wasn't that common in places like California, LSDs were a more checked option box in the snow belt. Nowadays they're pretty much standard on MBs along with traction control and those RWD cars have no problems in the snow.
Makes sense to me. These cars were about $22k new in the late 70s/80s, and considering the lack of electronic doodads available to pile on, and the fact that RWD + Snow - LSD = Stuck, and it's not hard to see why some cars came with this, even if they were an anti-performance model like the 240D. Rich people don't pay extra for a car so they can get stuck, and in this country, you simply weren't going to be some Joe buying one of these cars over, say, a Malibu, although later, you might have wished that you had!
I feel blessed, as I've never been this lucky, always open diffs. Even my 9C1 Caprice lacked the LSD code, as did my '4x3'. The only factory LSD car I've had was my 93 SE-R. Actually, my Cherokee 4.0 Sport had it, too (4x4), that truck did wicked burnouts on demand
.That's one of the reasons I went with a stick 240D to convert it's engine, and didn't go with a 300D to convert to stick. That, and my windows all work and will continue to do so for the perceivable future (crank windows).
After I get the axle taken care of I'm going to drain and replace the diff grease with some Mobil One, and a little secret for you guys with LSD from this side of the pond; go to a GM dealer (while they're still open!) and get a container of the General's limited slip additive. It's designed to make clutch type LSDs work better and the muscle car guys (and some of the Japanese compact crowd) all say it'll make an older stock LSD unit work much better, before the additive they'd say it felt 'worn out' but it's a wet clutch and they require stuff like this to keep them working well. Most of the muscle car guys are working with a lot more power than we are and using it to drag race: I'd say it'd work for our application just fine.
CID Vicious
06-10-2009, 01:57 PM #5The 3.46 is in that car. The 240Ds had to have steeper gears to move that 3400lb car with only 72hp, and these cars were available with a limited slip as an option. As an analogy, VW Transporters used a 4.56 final gear so that that heavy van could be moved by 36hp-65hp engines (granted they were gassers and low torque ones at that, but you see my point).
I've had an inkling since I had this car that it had one because of the way the rear gets 'confused' over rough pavement under power, due to the fact that one of the axles is worn out and has a lot of slack in it. An open diff wouldn't exhibit that kind of behavior, as it wouldn't be trying to keep the two wheels spinning at the same speed. My former 'boss' was a factory trained Mercedes technician when these cars were new, and he said that while it wasn't that common in places like California, LSDs were a more checked option box in the snow belt. Nowadays they're pretty much standard on MBs along with traction control and those RWD cars have no problems in the snow.
Makes sense to me. These cars were about $22k new in the late 70s/80s, and considering the lack of electronic doodads available to pile on, and the fact that RWD + Snow - LSD = Stuck, and it's not hard to see why some cars came with this, even if they were an anti-performance model like the 240D. Rich people don't pay extra for a car so they can get stuck, and in this country, you simply weren't going to be some Joe buying one of these cars over, say, a Malibu, although later, you might have wished that you had!
I feel blessed, as I've never been this lucky, always open diffs. Even my 9C1 Caprice lacked the LSD code, as did my '4x3'. The only factory LSD car I've had was my 93 SE-R. Actually, my Cherokee 4.0 Sport had it, too (4x4), that truck did wicked burnouts on demand .
That's one of the reasons I went with a stick 240D to convert it's engine, and didn't go with a 300D to convert to stick. That, and my windows all work and will continue to do so for the perceivable future (crank windows).
After I get the axle taken care of I'm going to drain and replace the diff grease with some Mobil One, and a little secret for you guys with LSD from this side of the pond; go to a GM dealer (while they're still open!) and get a container of the General's limited slip additive. It's designed to make clutch type LSDs work better and the muscle car guys (and some of the Japanese compact crowd) all say it'll make an older stock LSD unit work much better, before the additive they'd say it felt 'worn out' but it's a wet clutch and they require stuff like this to keep them working well. Most of the muscle car guys are working with a lot more power than we are and using it to drag race: I'd say it'd work for our application just fine.
My car, for the semi-rough shape I found it in, was fairly well-maintained, just with faded out paint and a dirty assed interior (because most people aren't smart enough to spend a couple afternoons with 3M polishing compound and LA's Totally Awesome cleaner from the 99 cent only store, that and I used to do detail for a living).
This car was perhaps the only used car I've ever bought that had nearly crystal-clear brake fluid in the master cylinder. And I've owned over 20 in my life so far. It also had a set of four new matching tires (that have since lost a brother to a concrete-embedded re-bar). It's possible that this car was modified in the 27 years since it left the factory, but again, I bought this off of my former employer who was a factory trained tech, and he said it was unlikely, but far from impossible. The brake fluid (and the brake rotors themselves are far from new) is one of the most neglected fluids in any used car, so maybe the former owner was a bit of an enthusiast. I'll never know for sure.
I'll try to get under there with the LATA Cleaner (works, well, awesome for dirt and grime, brake dust, oxidation, and used full strength makes a great engine degreaser), a brush and some high-pressure wash. It's in my best interest unless I want to look like a coal miner when I put in the axle, anyway.
CID Vicious
06-10-2009, 02:34 PM #7Will do.
My car, for the semi-rough shape I found it in, was fairly well-maintained, just with faded out paint and a dirty assed interior (because most people aren't smart enough to spend a couple afternoons with 3M polishing compound and LA's Totally Awesome cleaner from the 99 cent only store, that and I used to do detail for a living).
This car was perhaps the only used car I've ever bought that had nearly crystal-clear brake fluid in the master cylinder. And I've owned over 20 in my life so far. It also had a set of four new matching tires (that have since lost a brother to a concrete-embedded re-bar). It's possible that this car was modified in the 27 years since it left the factory, but again, I bought this off of my former employer who was a factory trained tech, and he said it was unlikely, but far from impossible. The brake fluid (and the brake rotors themselves are far from new) is one of the most neglected fluids in any used car, so maybe the former owner was a bit of an enthusiast. I'll never know for sure.
I'll try to get under there with the LATA Cleaner (works, well, awesome for dirt and grime, brake dust, oxidation, and used full strength makes a great engine degreaser), a brush and some high-pressure wash. It's in my best interest unless I want to look like a coal miner when I put in the axle, anyway.
(06-10-2009, 02:15 PM)winmutt ... I was unaware of LSD ever being an option on any 123.
I don't think anybody is aware of that option. In fact, everybody thinks it is unavailable.
Look at the cover. Usually an LSD will have a tag on the bolts requiring special limited slip fluid. Or better yet when you remove you fix your axles, take a picture of the clutches. We would all like to see that.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
06-10-2009, 03:42 PM #8(06-10-2009, 02:15 PM)winmutt ... I was unaware of LSD ever being an option on any 123.
I don't think anybody is aware of that option. In fact, everybody thinks it is unavailable.
Look at the cover. Usually an LSD will have a tag on the bolts requiring special limited slip fluid. Or better yet when you remove you fix your axles, take a picture of the clutches. We would all like to see that.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
(06-10-2009, 03:42 PM)DeliveryValve(06-10-2009, 02:15 PM)winmutt ... I was unaware of LSD ever being an option on any 123.
I don't think anybody is aware of that option. In fact, everybody thinks it is unavailable.
Look at the cover. Usually an LSD will have a tag on the bolts requiring special limited slip fluid. Or better yet when you remove you fix your axles, take a picture of the clutches. We would all like to see that.
.
Its possible I just have hard time believing it in a fed 240D. I think a simple test on pavement will confirm.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(06-10-2009, 03:42 PM)DeliveryValve(06-10-2009, 02:15 PM)winmutt ... I was unaware of LSD ever being an option on any 123.
I don't think anybody is aware of that option. In fact, everybody thinks it is unavailable.
Look at the cover. Usually an LSD will have a tag on the bolts requiring special limited slip fluid. Or better yet when you remove you fix your axles, take a picture of the clutches. We would all like to see that.
.
Its possible I just have hard time believing it in a fed 240D. I think a simple test on pavement will confirm.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
As GF said, try it again with one tire on pavement and I bet the outcome will be the normal one wheel sand burnout.
ForcedInduction
06-11-2009, 02:56 PM
#10
There wasn't a LSD option. CID Vicious got both tires to spin because sand is a very loose surface material, the resistance was low enough for both tires to have the same traction.
As GF said, try it again with one tire on pavement and I bet the outcome will be the normal one wheel sand burnout.
Meanwhile in the next lane someone's old beater Monte Carlo LS, with a regular issue open diff, or most 2wd trucks, are spinning one tire and don't have the rear end control issues, if they can get moving at all.
Unless Mercedes designed a 'magic open differential that happens to spin both tires in slippery conditions and is open the rest of the time' - a limited slip by definition - it's a friggin' limited slip, or in any case if it's part number doesn't jibe with you then it acts like one, in which case, fine by me. I have guitar players tell me my Sansamp doesn't sound like a Marshall, but I say it does and I like my sound, so who's right?
I'm going to put this to rest in about five minutes. I happen to have two of the stock jacks, I'll jack the rear end up in neutral and spin the tires. LSD would spin both tires in the same direction, open and they'll spin opposite.
I'd like to know where this information is supposed to be coming from, because I typed in 'Mercedes 240D factory options list' into Google and when I put quotes around "factory options" it returned about a dozen pages, mostly for sale pages with 'all factory options' listed as a feature, and none with an options list.
The Volvo guys swore up and down that my 760 Turbo didn't have one, either, because it didn't have the tag, and yet I couldn't get the right rear tire to break loose while it was submerged in a half inch of soapy water (washed it on the street out in front of my place at the time in LA). 4.11 gears and a turbo motor should be able to break a 195 width tire loose in that kind of slip, but not with a LSD and the other tire on relatively dry pavement. Sold the car before I could verify. A 760 Turbo IC wagon was the top of the line car Volvo sold aside from the limited production Bertone coupe - such a to-the-hilt optioned car wouldn't be out of place with a posi.
Ok, so the ass of the car is up in the air and this is what I've found:
1) Chock the front tires first.
2) When both tires where up and I turned one, the other spun the opposite way. That would say this is not an LSD and that I'm wrong.
3) I started up the engine and put it in first. The tires both spin forward in the complete absence of traction. Theoretically, the tires should spin opposite directions as there is absolutely no traction available whatsoever. Ice would give more resistance. This is posi-traction behavior.
4) When I spun the tires by hand, the drive shaft did not move. I was going to use this as an opportunity to verify the axle ratio but apparently I can't using the normal method. (Spin the tires and note the number of turns of the driveshaft to one of the tire, or the opposite, I forget.)
This is neither normal behavior for an open diff, nor for an LSD. The driveshaft's seeming disconnect from the axles is puzzling, and it's showing both the behaviors of an open and a limited slip, just not at the same time.
It's a Quantum Differential!
However, the Quaife diffs do kind of the same thing - one wheel on pavement and one on ice, it won't have the ability to move both wheels like a clutch diff would. (It's a factor if the car is going to be driven in the winter at all, and you're on the fence as to buy a traditional clutch based lsd or a quaife with the planetary setup.
I guess that Mercedes did design a 'magic diff' that's open, except when it isn't...?'
CID Vicious
06-11-2009, 04:45 PM #11By that logic then in slippery conditions such as rain, snow, or ice, you'd spin both tires as well with an open differential. Which never happens. It does with cars with a limited slip - ever see a Miata or a 350Z or a Mustang GT lose it's ass in a snowstorm, BOTH wheels spinning and thus the entire rear end loses control, a little bit of steering input in either direction and it's 180 time.
Meanwhile in the next lane someone's old beater Monte Carlo LS, with a regular issue open diff, or most 2wd trucks, are spinning one tire and don't have the rear end control issues, if they can get moving at all.
Unless Mercedes designed a 'magic open differential that happens to spin both tires in slippery conditions and is open the rest of the time' - a limited slip by definition - it's a friggin' limited slip, or in any case if it's part number doesn't jibe with you then it acts like one, in which case, fine by me. I have guitar players tell me my Sansamp doesn't sound like a Marshall, but I say it does and I like my sound, so who's right?
I'm going to put this to rest in about five minutes. I happen to have two of the stock jacks, I'll jack the rear end up in neutral and spin the tires. LSD would spin both tires in the same direction, open and they'll spin opposite.
I'd like to know where this information is supposed to be coming from, because I typed in 'Mercedes 240D factory options list' into Google and when I put quotes around "factory options" it returned about a dozen pages, mostly for sale pages with 'all factory options' listed as a feature, and none with an options list.
The Volvo guys swore up and down that my 760 Turbo didn't have one, either, because it didn't have the tag, and yet I couldn't get the right rear tire to break loose while it was submerged in a half inch of soapy water (washed it on the street out in front of my place at the time in LA). 4.11 gears and a turbo motor should be able to break a 195 width tire loose in that kind of slip, but not with a LSD and the other tire on relatively dry pavement. Sold the car before I could verify. A 760 Turbo IC wagon was the top of the line car Volvo sold aside from the limited production Bertone coupe - such a to-the-hilt optioned car wouldn't be out of place with a posi.
Ok, so the ass of the car is up in the air and this is what I've found:
1) Chock the front tires first.
2) When both tires where up and I turned one, the other spun the opposite way. That would say this is not an LSD and that I'm wrong.
3) I started up the engine and put it in first. The tires both spin forward in the complete absence of traction. Theoretically, the tires should spin opposite directions as there is absolutely no traction available whatsoever. Ice would give more resistance. This is posi-traction behavior.
4) When I spun the tires by hand, the drive shaft did not move. I was going to use this as an opportunity to verify the axle ratio but apparently I can't using the normal method. (Spin the tires and note the number of turns of the driveshaft to one of the tire, or the opposite, I forget.)
This is neither normal behavior for an open diff, nor for an LSD. The driveshaft's seeming disconnect from the axles is puzzling, and it's showing both the behaviors of an open and a limited slip, just not at the same time.
It's a Quantum Differential!
However, the Quaife diffs do kind of the same thing - one wheel on pavement and one on ice, it won't have the ability to move both wheels like a clutch diff would. (It's a factor if the car is going to be driven in the winter at all, and you're on the fence as to buy a traditional clutch based lsd or a quaife with the planetary setup.
I guess that Mercedes did design a 'magic diff' that's open, except when it isn't...?'
The last thing I did was turn the car back on, put it in first and drop a wheel to the pavement. The other spun away. Open.
I've never seen an open diff spin both tires, only one. The MB diff does have something weird going on, it's not standard for the axle to move and the drive shaft to not move. Maybe that's why they didn't need factory lsd's in these cars, there was some kind of halfway point reached. It was an all new axle design at the time, they might have been getting creative.
Oh well, egg on my face. Got any hot sauce for this crow?
CID Vicious
06-11-2009, 05:02 PM #13Well, you learn something new every day.
The last thing I did was turn the car back on, put it in first and drop a wheel to the pavement. The other spun away. Open.
I've never seen an open diff spin both tires, only one. The MB diff does have something weird going on, it's not standard for the axle to move and the drive shaft to not move. Maybe that's why they didn't need factory lsd's in these cars, there was some kind of halfway point reached. It was an all new axle design at the time, they might have been getting creative.
Oh well, egg on my face. Got any hot sauce for this crow?
I think you are used to differently geared cars, I am pretty sure what you saw was because of rotating mass.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I like my eggs with hot sauce. Trappey's in the black label is by far the best I have found. Its got the heat and flavor.
I think you are used to differently geared cars, I am pretty sure what you saw was because of rotating mass.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
None of the live axle cars I've ever seen break loose both wheels with an open diff. MB might just have a better open diff design, it's not a limited but it's just a little better than your average open. I'd imagine posi's a standard feature on the newer MB cars, though lots of manufacturers use traction control to get around having to offer a lsd from the factory, so I don't know. For the money, you'd hope so. MB also had the capital to try new things, I'd have to see the inside, maybe there's something going on with planetary gears or something. Or maybe I'm just trying to not look like a doofus.
I'm a cheap skate by nature and I get by with Tapatio. My mom was the nutty one about the heat - she'd pickle up to 10 batches of jalapenos in the same jar, same vinegar, just topping off the vinegar each time before closing the jar, and I'd swear that that vinegar could strip off chrome plating. I like a little sinus clearing and some flavor, but I don't get all Olympian about it.
If I see the Trappey's I'll have to try it.
CID Vicious
06-11-2009, 06:51 PM #15Well, I've had everything from the 2.80 range to over 5.00 (that tow truck rear had some GEARS in my flatbed. I ran 32"x12.5" tires on all four corners and it lurched like a muscle car with 4.11s or better - running a 283!). I've had IRS RWD cars before too. Though the Supras did come factory with a limited, so I don't know (unlike in these cars it was common in Celica Supras and the subsequent generations). I couldn't get the 22RE in my old Celica GT to spin the tires. Aside from the reliability I still don't get the following that that motor has. This is my first Mercedes, though.
None of the live axle cars I've ever seen break loose both wheels with an open diff. MB might just have a better open diff design, it's not a limited but it's just a little better than your average open. I'd imagine posi's a standard feature on the newer MB cars, though lots of manufacturers use traction control to get around having to offer a lsd from the factory, so I don't know. For the money, you'd hope so. MB also had the capital to try new things, I'd have to see the inside, maybe there's something going on with planetary gears or something. Or maybe I'm just trying to not look like a doofus.
I'm a cheap skate by nature and I get by with Tapatio. My mom was the nutty one about the heat - she'd pickle up to 10 batches of jalapenos in the same jar, same vinegar, just topping off the vinegar each time before closing the jar, and I'd swear that that vinegar could strip off chrome plating. I like a little sinus clearing and some flavor, but I don't get all Olympian about it.
If I see the Trappey's I'll have to try it.
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