odd performance options?
odd performance options?
I was forwarded here by the gents over at benz world.
I am new here and on a quest of discovery and enlightenment. A little background on me is that I work a lot with a mindless job so while i'm standing there doing my menial labor it gives me a lot of time to think, hence where these questions come from. Some of these may be out in left field and other may be right in the ball park. I am also looking at a WVO conversion for it but thats another story so now onto the meat of my thread.
P.S. I have done some google research before asking as much as i could
1. Has anyone looked into making one of the engines DI as opposed to IDI? I mean I don't think it would be hard to mill out the precombustion chamber and sleeve it to hold DI injectors. what are your thoughts on this?
2. What about pulling the VE or P7100 pumps off of cummins engines and working them onto an OM? has it been done before? both are gear driven bosch pumps so i don't think the swap would be undoable. I've seen on some threads people are bragging about worked over m pumps at like 7-7.5mm plungers while i'm pretty sure the p7100 has an 11mm plunger stock and can be raced out to 16mm i think.
3. If i got the 4x4 Labs om617 to gm manual transmission adapter kit (OM617 to GM Manual Transmission | 4×4 Labs) do you think i would be able to get a gm 5 or 6 speed under the body without much cutting and rewelding of the floor and supports and everything? just to try to bump fuel economy with some extra gears and also the possibility of adding a gear vendors overdrive unit for some serious mileage. thoughts?
thats all i got for now but i'm sure more questions will come soon as these questions are answered and i have more time to think
TheHellforger
08-21-2012, 09:37 AM #1Hello senior forum members,
I was forwarded here by the gents over at benz world.
I am new here and on a quest of discovery and enlightenment. A little background on me is that I work a lot with a mindless job so while i'm standing there doing my menial labor it gives me a lot of time to think, hence where these questions come from. Some of these may be out in left field and other may be right in the ball park. I am also looking at a WVO conversion for it but thats another story so now onto the meat of my thread.
P.S. I have done some google research before asking as much as i could
1. Has anyone looked into making one of the engines DI as opposed to IDI? I mean I don't think it would be hard to mill out the precombustion chamber and sleeve it to hold DI injectors. what are your thoughts on this?
2. What about pulling the VE or P7100 pumps off of cummins engines and working them onto an OM? has it been done before? both are gear driven bosch pumps so i don't think the swap would be undoable. I've seen on some threads people are bragging about worked over m pumps at like 7-7.5mm plungers while i'm pretty sure the p7100 has an 11mm plunger stock and can be raced out to 16mm i think.
3. If i got the 4x4 Labs om617 to gm manual transmission adapter kit (OM617 to GM Manual Transmission | 4×4 Labs) do you think i would be able to get a gm 5 or 6 speed under the body without much cutting and rewelding of the floor and supports and everything? just to try to bump fuel economy with some extra gears and also the possibility of adding a gear vendors overdrive unit for some serious mileage. thoughts?
thats all i got for now but i'm sure more questions will come soon as these questions are answered and i have more time to think
2- You could potentially maybe adapt a 4cyl pump to an OM616, but the OM617 turbo (came with oil squirters, hardened crank, etc.) is a 5cyl.
3- It's probably easier to swap in a Merc 4 speed, and a taller rear end. In my opinion a 5 speed is only needed for an engine with a narrow powerband-the 617 will pull hard across a decent range, and should do well with a 4 speed. My conversion will be using a SM465 (granny gear + 3 speeds)
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-21-2012, 10:29 AM #21-AFAIK, going DI would melt the pistons or something like that, I don't actually know
2- You could potentially maybe adapt a 4cyl pump to an OM616, but the OM617 turbo (came with oil squirters, hardened crank, etc.) is a 5cyl.
3- It's probably easier to swap in a Merc 4 speed, and a taller rear end. In my opinion a 5 speed is only needed for an engine with a narrow powerband-the 617 will pull hard across a decent range, and should do well with a 4 speed. My conversion will be using a SM465 (granny gear + 3 speeds)
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
as for pump swaps, i was thinking in particular using a p7100 off a 6bt cummins and running it on an om603 or om606. My thinking in that is they are both bosch pumps, i just don't know how the pumps interface differently. I don't have a mercedes yet but i am currently in the market for one. If I found a 4 cylinder i could probably use a pump off a 4 bt.
the transmission swap was just some playful thinking. if i could run a 6 speed manual i could put some demonic stump pulling gears in the rear end for wicked take offs but still get great mileage on top end.
again all this is just thinking right now until i actually find a cheap mercedes and begin the games
TheHellforger
08-21-2012, 10:51 AM #3I tried to do a lot of research on the IDI to DI conversion but there is somewhere in the area code of nothing on the swap
as for pump swaps, i was thinking in particular using a p7100 off a 6bt cummins and running it on an om603 or om606. My thinking in that is they are both bosch pumps, i just don't know how the pumps interface differently. I don't have a mercedes yet but i am currently in the market for one. If I found a 4 cylinder i could probably use a pump off a 4 bt.
the transmission swap was just some playful thinking. if i could run a 6 speed manual i could put some demonic stump pulling gears in the rear end for wicked take offs but still get great mileage on top end.
again all this is just thinking right now until i actually find a cheap mercedes and begin the games
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
08-21-2012, 11:38 AM #4The general consensus with trying to convert to DI is that by the time you bought everything you needed to do it you could have bought yourself a modified M pump that could give you more fuel than you could ever use. Not to mention the time it would take to develop it all.
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
08-21-2012, 11:53 AM #5Not to mention IDI revs a lot higher up to like 5-7k rpm where as DI can only rev 3-4k
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
(08-21-2012, 11:53 AM)willbhere4u Not to mention IDI revs a lot higher up to like 5-7k rpm where as DI can only rev 3-4k
And this is why you'll be juuust fine with a 4 speed and tall rear gears
If you want awesome launches a VNT and modified pump will take care of that.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-21-2012, 12:26 PM #6(08-21-2012, 11:53 AM)willbhere4u Not to mention IDI revs a lot higher up to like 5-7k rpm where as DI can only rev 3-4k
And this is why you'll be juuust fine with a 4 speed and tall rear gears
If you want awesome launches a VNT and modified pump will take care of that.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
08-21-2012, 01:19 PM #7I would just go with a Volvo overdrive unit instead of the gearvendors one, mostly since the volvo ones can be had for a couple hundred bucks on ebay vs the arm/leg a gearvendors will cost
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-21-2012, 01:23 PM #8Can I install the volvo unit backwards and give my truck a crawling gear?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(08-21-2012, 01:23 PM)Simpler=Better Can I install the volvo unit backwards and give my truck a crawling gear?
I don't know specifically about this unit, but gears are generally cut for maximum torque (and quietness) in one torque direction. Going backwards will likely be short lived and later noisy.
(08-21-2012, 01:23 PM)Simpler=Better Can I install the volvo unit backwards and give my truck a crawling gear?
I don't know specifically about this unit, but gears are generally cut for maximum torque (and quietness) in one torque direction. Going backwards will likely be short lived and later noisy.
(08-21-2012, 01:23 PM)Simpler=Better Can I install the volvo unit backwards and give my truck a crawling gear?
Yeah I have a feeling that wouldn't work too well. Some of the Volvo M46 transmissions had an overdrive fitted to them, which was essentially a "high/low" box. So if you installed one on a car with a 4 speed, I guess you could have 8 forward gears, for whatever purpose you wanted.
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
08-21-2012, 04:22 PM #10(08-21-2012, 01:23 PM)Simpler=Better Can I install the volvo unit backwards and give my truck a crawling gear?
Yeah I have a feeling that wouldn't work too well. Some of the Volvo M46 transmissions had an overdrive fitted to them, which was essentially a "high/low" box. So if you installed one on a car with a 4 speed, I guess you could have 8 forward gears, for whatever purpose you wanted.
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
Reaming the pc's has been found to be worth the effort. I even machined the head on my 616 to except the 617a pc's which I reamed out larger, in the burn holes. I am also using the 617a injectors.
What is your end goal? in terms of hp, and of course what vehicle do you want it in? Must say the stock pumps can be upgraded to as much fuel as the engine can handle, so not sure why the differant pumps.
Reaming the pc's has been found to be worth the effort. I even machined the head on my 616 to except the 617a pc's which I reamed out larger, in the burn holes. I am also using the 617a injectors.
what is the method to adapt the volvo unit to the car? is it a straight bolt on swap or do i need the entire volvo transmission or how so?
the subject of VNT/VGT turbos was brought up. not right off the bat but somewhere down the road i would like to o-ring the heads, add some head studs (probably have to be custom cut), then put either a supercharger/turbo setup or compound turbos and run some ungodly boost levels.
i just like to tinker and play with stuff. i would try to push the 300 as far as i could since my dd is an 05 f-350 drw and i have a 91 dodge ram cummins for back up
TheHellforger
08-22-2012, 06:43 PM #12sorry for the delay in reply. Ideally i am looking for a 300 with the om606. I wanna do a waste vegetable oil conversion on it (not pertinent to the current convo, just throwing it in)
what is the method to adapt the volvo unit to the car? is it a straight bolt on swap or do i need the entire volvo transmission or how so?
the subject of VNT/VGT turbos was brought up. not right off the bat but somewhere down the road i would like to o-ring the heads, add some head studs (probably have to be custom cut), then put either a supercharger/turbo setup or compound turbos and run some ungodly boost levels.
i just like to tinker and play with stuff. i would try to push the 300 as far as i could since my dd is an 05 f-350 drw and i have a 91 dodge ram cummins for back up
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-23-2012, 09:00 AM #13You're going to need stronger rods too, those like to bend over 2bar-ish
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-23-2012, 06:21 PM #15There's no way you're going to touch the bottom end. You can remove the head in-car
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
TheHellforger
08-26-2012, 06:27 PM #16ok now another question just hit me. what about common rail injection? I don't know if it would have any performance advantage or anything but i was thinking that if it were feasible you could use a stand alone computer to control injection. just switch between power and economy at the flip of a switch
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-27-2012, 08:18 AM #18If you could get all the common rail parts and build your own controller I'd say go for it. With a common rail you could dump ridiculous amounts of fuel easily and have perfect timing.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
common rail ECU = huge $ cheapest I have seen one was around £3000 if memory serves. It works a completely different way to petrol injection so you cant strap on a megasquirt. for a start the injectors start at a hi voltage then drop and hold, they also fire 3-5 times per injection so they need extremely short resolution. For now until the prices come down forget it unless you have deep pockets.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-28-2012, 08:06 AM #20I was thinking of pulling the system from a stock car and making it fit on the 617
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
In theory its possible but you would have to move everything from the donor car over. Immobiliser, dash clocks, body computer the works or it wont go. There are threads on here regarding trying to get the 606 605 electronic controlled pump working and most if not all have given up. You would have to work out how to get the injectors fitted as well and common rails are DI or were you going to use the engine as well? If not as aaa said you have a whole load of hassle mapping it. The upgrade tuners tweak the maps they don't completely remap from scratch.
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