HOLESET HX 35W Injection NOZZLE UPGRADE
HOLESET HX 35W Injection NOZZLE UPGRADE
I just picked up a 87 w124 td and I also have a holeset hx 35 laying around. Curious, without going to extremes if I can bump up the hp and overall giddy-up by marrying the two. I'd want to build into the car a intercooler, but I couldn't do the complete upgraded injection pump. I think that's out of my league. I have spoken with a bosh injection pump guy and he advised me to replace the injection pump nozzle with a larger high flow nozzle and of course turn up the pump for greater flow. So I'm curious if the mildly messaged pump, turbo and intercooler makes sense and what kind of power could I hope for. Thank you for any help.
With a stock pump you're going to see a very long delay in building boost. The HX35 is a monster-on a 4L tractor we could only get it up to 4psi.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-28-2012, 12:48 PM #2With an upgraded pump (~$1500) an HX35 would do well, although you would still experience some turbo lag.
With a stock pump you're going to see a very long delay in building boost. The HX35 is a monster-on a 4L tractor we could only get it up to 4psi.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
A recommended addition, but don't expect it to give you any noticeable horsepower.
Before you do any major upgrades you will want to install a pyrometer and boost gauge.
10-20hp can be bought with a cheap DIY methanol system, typically around $150
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-28-2012, 01:20 PM #4The intercooler will give you lower temps, which gives you a longer engine life and more overhead for future mods. An intercooler will give you a small decrease in spool time.
A recommended addition, but don't expect it to give you any noticeable horsepower.
Before you do any major upgrades you will want to install a pyrometer and boost gauge.
10-20hp can be bought with a cheap DIY methanol system, typically around $150
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
One more question. Just to be clear...I'm assuming or hearing that for any real power improvements it all revolves around a upgraded injection pump?? Curious, is there a company here in the states that does that or are they all overseas?
But, have you ever heard of changing out the injection pump nozzle for easy increased fuel flow??
One more question. Just to be clear...I'm assuming or hearing that for any real power improvements it all revolves around a upgraded injection pump?? Curious, is there a company here in the states that does that or are they all overseas?
The injector nozzles themselves-don't know of any aftermarket performance nozzles
Supposedly there are shops in the states, but the euro guys have the best reputations
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-28-2012, 04:14 PM #6I *believe* the 60x injection pump has 6 elements that must be changed and balanced. It's not just 1 pice limiting fuel.
The injector nozzles themselves-don't know of any aftermarket performance nozzles
Supposedly there are shops in the states, but the euro guys have the best reputations
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
My understanding as to the benefits of the higher flowing nozzle is that the more fuel the nozzle will flow at a lower pintle lift position, then less fuel is used to lift the pintle, so fuel that would normally go into the pressure section to lift the lower flowing nozzle's pintle farther, will be injected instead, resulting in more fuel being injected with the same element output volume.
I too have been looking for higher flowing nozzles and I was told that a DN0SD315 nozzle will flow about 15% more fuel than a the 265 nozzle at the same pintle lift, and the 315 has the same size pressure section as the 265 which is critical when comparing flow to lift ratios.
My understanding as to the benefits of the higher flowing nozzle is that the more fuel the nozzle will flow at a lower pintle lift position, then less fuel is used to lift the pintle, so fuel that would normally go into the pressure section to lift the lower flowing nozzle's pintle farther, will be injected instead, resulting in more fuel being injected with the same element output volume.
Interesting. So if your nozzle theory is correct with DN0SD315 nozzle, and you are looking at an added 15% fuel increase I wonder how that compares to those modded euro pumps in flow. And with 15% more would that allow for a larger turbo? I just like to know what if and what options are out there.
(11-28-2012, 07:27 PM)penzek Interesting. So if your nozzle theory is correct with DN0SD315 nozzle, and you are looking at an added 15% fuel increase I wonder how that compares to those modded euro pumps in flow. And with 15% more would that allow for a larger turbo? I just like to know what if and what options are out there.
I don't think only changing the nozzle will increase the delivery by 15%. The 315 nozzle will flow 15% more fuel than a 265 at the same pintle lift, the additional fuel that the 315 nozzle can deliver, will, (theoretically), be equal to the difference in the pintle lift volume of the two nozzles.
For example, if the 265 pintle pressure diameter is .250 inches, and the pintle has to lift 1 inch to flow the delivered quantity at full power and speed, then the 315 nozzle pintle would only have to move .850 inches to flow the same amount of fuel, at the same speed. The additional fuel that would be available for injection in this scenario, would be equal to the pintle displacement for the .150 inches that the 315 pintle did not have to travel. I hope that makes sense.
The problem with increasing the delivered quantity with out increasing the flow rate per lift of the nozzle, is that the more fuel you try to pass through it at high speed, the higher the pintle has to move, and it takes fuel to lift the pintle higher, so you are not getting 100% of the increased output of the pump. With higher flowing per lift nozzles, you get to inject more of the additional fuel that the pump puts out.
Another factor in delivered quantity is the Delivery Valve displacement. The more it displaces the less fuel is injected, and the less it displaces the more fuel is injected. There is a fine line though, as too little displacement will result in poor injection stability (secondary injections), ruff idle, smoke, and high EGTs.
(11-28-2012, 07:27 PM)penzek Interesting. So if your nozzle theory is correct with DN0SD315 nozzle, and you are looking at an added 15% fuel increase I wonder how that compares to those modded euro pumps in flow. And with 15% more would that allow for a larger turbo? I just like to know what if and what options are out there.
I don't think only changing the nozzle will increase the delivery by 15%. The 315 nozzle will flow 15% more fuel than a 265 at the same pintle lift, the additional fuel that the 315 nozzle can deliver, will, (theoretically), be equal to the difference in the pintle lift volume of the two nozzles.
For example, if the 265 pintle pressure diameter is .250 inches, and the pintle has to lift 1 inch to flow the delivered quantity at full power and speed, then the 315 nozzle pintle would only have to move .850 inches to flow the same amount of fuel, at the same speed. The additional fuel that would be available for injection in this scenario, would be equal to the pintle displacement for the .150 inches that the 315 pintle did not have to travel. I hope that makes sense.
The problem with increasing the delivered quantity with out increasing the flow rate per lift of the nozzle, is that the more fuel you try to pass through it at high speed, the higher the pintle has to move, and it takes fuel to lift the pintle higher, so you are not getting 100% of the increased output of the pump. With higher flowing per lift nozzles, you get to inject more of the additional fuel that the pump puts out.
Another factor in delivered quantity is the Delivery Valve displacement. The more it displaces the less fuel is injected, and the less it displaces the more fuel is injected. There is a fine line though, as too little displacement will result in poor injection stability (secondary injections), ruff idle, smoke, and high EGTs.
Thanks again for all the info... and explanation...
Assuming I went the route of the upgraded pump would I then be able to match my Holset HX turbo to my 87 w124 td?
Basically to sum it all up in simple man terms, it comes down to volume and pressure. And that's why you pay the big bucks for the euro mod pump. Where is the best place for ordering a reworked upgraded injection pump?
Thanks again for all the info... and explanation...
Assuming I went the route of the upgraded pump would I then be able to match my Holset HX turbo to my 87 w124 td?
I would think HX35 would do nicely at the higher RPMs. But getting there would be slow. On the other hand, evidently folks over the pond have been using the same size or bigger with claimed success. So you got a shot and really wouldn't know until you tried it.
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Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
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DeliveryValve
11-29-2012, 11:52 AM #11Your best bet for upgraded M pumps are Göran aka "dieselmeken" or Pasi aka "pp d" here in this forum.
I would think HX35 would do nicely at the higher RPMs. But getting there would be slow. On the other hand, evidently folks over the pond have been using the same size or bigger with claimed success. So you got a shot and really wouldn't know until you tried it.
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Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
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