190DT 2.5, C250TD? In English and German.
190DT 2.5, C250TD? In English and German.
I'm interested in building a strong turbodiesel.
I'm new in dieseltuning, so I need help.
Whats the better decision? w202 TD oder 190td 2,5?
Is it possible to geht 250-300hp out with little effort?
What to do with IP? The 250TD got a lucas pump, also possible to turn the quantity up?
I really want a 190D 2,5 Turbo, but these typs are very rare here with mt.
C250TD with mt are many times more.
So, what is needed for 250-300hp?
Which bolt on turbo would work? I want no other manifold or big modifies on the intake.
A intercooler is ok, and needed i think, but no other manifold.
If you talk here about "Nozzles from IP", than it is the part we call in germany "Pumpenelement", right? Here a pic:
![[Image: %24%28KGrHqZHJCwE+%28uDJUw7BQDusGdz-w~~60_35.JPG]](http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Bosch-Pumpenelement-PPK-1-3Z-Lagerware-1418340002-/00/s/MTA2N1gxNjAw/%24%28KGrHqZHJCwE+%28uDJUw7BQDusGdz-w~~60_35.JPG)
I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me for example, with the bolt on Turbo XYZ and Nozzle ABC and a good adjustmend, you get the power.
If I change the "Nozzles" in the IP (Pumpenelemente), can every garage with bench adjust it? If I understand it right, the garage with the testbench only have to adjust the flow rate to an average?
cause I speak german, here the german version, I think here are one or the other german speaking user.
Also, nochmal in deutsch.
Ich weiß nicht ob ich einen 190 2.5 oder C250 als basis nehmen soll, eben weils den C250 öfters gibt mit Schaltgetriebe.
Was ist dafür nötig zu ändern, damit am ende etwa 250-300ps rauskommen?
Hab mich bisher noch nicht mit Dieseltuning auseinander gesetzt, aber der Aufwand, humane Leistungen zu erzielen, erscheint mir doch geringer als einen Benziner n/a aufzuladen.
Wenn ich die Nozzles (um die es hier im Forum oft geht, soweit ich das rauslesen konnte, sind ja die Pumpenelemente?!) gegen größere ersetze, kann mir die Einspritzpumpe dann jede Werkstatt mit Prüfgerät einstellen? Im Prinzip gleicht die Werkstatt dann ja nur die Menge auf einen Mittelwert an oder?
Welche Turbos bieten sich an? Möchte halt nix am Abgaskrümmer ändern. Sollte plug and play sein.
Das das ganze hinterher natürlich abgestimmt werden muss ist klar, was ich hier suche ist eher ein Grundsetup, sagen wir mit Pumpenelement X und Lader Y komm ich plug and play nach einer abstimmung auf ne gute Leistung.
Thanks for reading.
Hi guys,
I'm interested in building a strong turbodiesel.
I'm new in dieseltuning, so I need help.
Whats the better decision? w202 TD oder 190td 2,5?
Is it possible to geht 250-300hp out with little effort?
What to do with IP? The 250TD got a lucas pump, also possible to turn the quantity up?
I really want a 190D 2,5 Turbo, but these typs are very rare here with mt.
C250TD with mt are many times more.
So, what is needed for 250-300hp?
Which bolt on turbo would work? I want no other manifold or big modifies on the intake.
A intercooler is ok, and needed i think, but no other manifold.
If you talk here about "Nozzles from IP", than it is the part we call in germany "Pumpenelement", right? Here a pic:
I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me for example, with the bolt on Turbo XYZ and Nozzle ABC and a good adjustmend, you get the power.
If I change the "Nozzles" in the IP (Pumpenelemente), can every garage with bench adjust it? If I understand it right, the garage with the testbench only have to adjust the flow rate to an average?
cause I speak german, here the german version, I think here are one or the other german speaking user.
Also, nochmal in deutsch.
Ich weiß nicht ob ich einen 190 2.5 oder C250 als basis nehmen soll, eben weils den C250 öfters gibt mit Schaltgetriebe.
Was ist dafür nötig zu ändern, damit am ende etwa 250-300ps rauskommen?
Hab mich bisher noch nicht mit Dieseltuning auseinander gesetzt, aber der Aufwand, humane Leistungen zu erzielen, erscheint mir doch geringer als einen Benziner n/a aufzuladen.
Wenn ich die Nozzles (um die es hier im Forum oft geht, soweit ich das rauslesen konnte, sind ja die Pumpenelemente?!) gegen größere ersetze, kann mir die Einspritzpumpe dann jede Werkstatt mit Prüfgerät einstellen? Im Prinzip gleicht die Werkstatt dann ja nur die Menge auf einen Mittelwert an oder?
Welche Turbos bieten sich an? Möchte halt nix am Abgaskrümmer ändern. Sollte plug and play sein.
Das das ganze hinterher natürlich abgestimmt werden muss ist klar, was ich hier suche ist eher ein Grundsetup, sagen wir mit Pumpenelement X und Lader Y komm ich plug and play nach einer abstimmung auf ne gute Leistung.
Thanks for reading.
Yes it has an electronic governer in it which can be tweaked with chip changes although this doesn't seem very common. The more usual route is to get a mechanical pump from a 602 and get the delivery valves replaced along with a larger turbo. There are lots of tuning threads on the 605 engine some of them being very powerful. Bit of a novice myself so I will leave it to others to go further and also have a search.
What I've read, the pump from OM605 can changed to a pump from 602.
I've searched now for 2 or 3 hours, but I cant find what I'm searching for. Maybe its a language problem.
If I buy a C250TD with mt, is it difficult to get 250-300hp without much smoke?
If its possible, what Setup should I go?
More specifically, what Turbo is good and plug and play? I think the OM605 have a triangle flange to the turbo.
If I use the original electric controlled IP, can I go also with 7mm elements?
Are here User with C250TD with similar setup than I plan?
That means stock IP (maybe other elements), bigger Turbo and intercooler?
Ok.
What I've read, the pump from OM605 can changed to a pump from 602.
I've searched now for 2 or 3 hours, but I cant find what I'm searching for. Maybe its a language problem.
If I buy a C250TD with mt, is it difficult to get 250-300hp without much smoke?
If its possible, what Setup should I go?
More specifically, what Turbo is good and plug and play? I think the OM605 have a triangle flange to the turbo.
If I use the original electric controlled IP, can I go also with 7mm elements?
Are here User with C250TD with similar setup than I plan?
That means stock IP (maybe other elements), bigger Turbo and intercooler?
i had 7.5mm element fitted in electric pump, couldn't get revs over 5500rpm with full fuel to 4900rpm.
Dieselmeken changed the elements over into mechanical pump and (holy shit) it was a different car reving to 6500rpm with longer power band.
I used link pipe from standard manifold but its not the best way to do it.
Have you read this?
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-3042.html
hi,
i had 7.5mm element fitted in electric pump, couldn't get revs over 5500rpm with full fuel to 4900rpm.
Dieselmeken changed the elements over into mechanical pump and (holy shit) it was a different car reving to 6500rpm with longer power band.
I used link pipe from standard manifold but its not the best way to do it.
Have you read this?
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-3042.html
for the thread opener
nozzles = Einspritzdüsen
element/plunger = Pumpenelement
The OM605 is probably better for more power because the engine seems to be able to take more abuse than a OM602
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxLvwAhx9lc
OM605 with ~270HP, 2,5bar boost pressure what I remember
Where do you live (City)?
Gruß
Volker
Some european models have Lucas pumps instead of Bosch. But the Lucas stuff is by far not as sturdy as the Bosch pumps.
for the thread opener
nozzles = Einspritzdüsen
element/plunger = Pumpenelement
The OM605 is probably better for more power because the engine seems to be able to take more abuse than a OM602
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxLvwAhx9lc
OM605 with ~270HP, 2,5bar boost pressure what I remember
Where do you live (City)?
Gruß
Volker
thanks! I didnt see this.
Now some open questions: In the first post there is a dyno sheet, what mods?
Does the electric side of the car not slow down the engine? Car goes in emergency mode?
You use HX35 and stock exhaust manifold - with what flange?
Very nice car. Your car is comple consistently built to drift.
I want a daily driver with a bit more power.
Are 250-300hp possible without that much black smoke?
Why the car smokes like that at all?
I dont want to rev more than 5500rpm.
If there is a lot of air in it, it shouldnt smoke black like that? Or increase this the EGT?
When I go with a Holset HY35 and 7mm elements in my pump... whats than to do?
I'm new in Dieseltuning.
I hope you can help me.
@ Volker: When i write this post, i didnt see yours! I read it now!
Now Ive read it.
I live close to karlsruhe.
The 123 in this vid do very much black smoke... is it possible to go to more power without that much smoke?
Hi,
thanks! I didnt see this.
Now some open questions: In the first post there is a dyno sheet, what mods?
Does the electric side of the car not slow down the engine? Car goes in emergency mode?
You use HX35 and stock exhaust manifold - with what flange?
Very nice car. Your car is comple consistently built to drift.
I want a daily driver with a bit more power.
Are 250-300hp possible without that much black smoke?
Why the car smokes like that at all?
I dont want to rev more than 5500rpm.
If there is a lot of air in it, it shouldnt smoke black like that? Or increase this the EGT?
When I go with a Holset HY35 and 7mm elements in my pump... whats than to do?
I'm new in Dieseltuning.
I hope you can help me.
@ Volker: When i write this post, i didnt see yours! I read it now!
Now Ive read it.
I live close to karlsruhe.
The 123 in this vid do very much black smoke... is it possible to go to more power without that much smoke?
first dyno graph was 7.5mm element with potentiometer fitted for more fuel, not nice to drive at all.
Standard manifold was bored out at turbo side and flange bolted and welded, then link pipe fitted, this was done as a cheap experiment, i recommend you make a proper manifold for better flow and less back pressure.
Flanges where just made up with larger centre hole than standard manifold.
![[Image: utf-8BSU1HMDAzNDktMjAxMTA3MTUtMTMzNi5qcGc.jpg]](http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc461/mantahead1/utf-8BSU1HMDAzNDktMjAxMTA3MTUtMTMzNi5qcGc.jpg)
i had some issues with the car going into limp mode when the potentiometer was switched on.
Will be hard to make power without some smoke.
Most people go with mechanical pump.
hi,
first dyno graph was 7.5mm element with potentiometer fitted for more fuel, not nice to drive at all.
Standard manifold was bored out at turbo side and flange bolted and welded, then link pipe fitted, this was done as a cheap experiment, i recommend you make a proper manifold for better flow and less back pressure.
Flanges where just made up with larger centre hole than standard manifold.
i had some issues with the car going into limp mode when the potentiometer was switched on.
Will be hard to make power without some smoke.
Most people go with mechanical pump.
And switched off means it isnt in the car?
With mechanic IP no other issue from the car electronic?
From which car did you use the pedal and throttle wire with mechanical IP?
Now I have some facts together:
C250TD with mt, mechanical pump, 7mm elements, stock injectors, and other turbo is well for 250-300hp?
Ok, what turbocharger is recommendable?
A few general questions:
WHEN do a tuned Diesel car smoke?
I think the most smoke is on low rpm and WOT right?
As a daily driver I dont need WOT often, so I could drive very ordinary?
Ok, I was reading a little bit in WIS, and if I have understood it correctly, the ALDA-equipment should reduce black smoke at WOT and low rpm, so when the turbo spools not fast and produces little boost? Am I right so far?
So is it the best decision to swap the E pump against the m pump from 602, WITH ALDA?
Ok, with potentiometer you mean the throttle pedal in the car?
And switched off means it isnt in the car?
With mechanic IP no other issue from the car electronic?
From which car did you use the pedal and throttle wire with mechanical IP?
Now I have some facts together:
C250TD with mt, mechanical pump, 7mm elements, stock injectors, and other turbo is well for 250-300hp?
Ok, what turbocharger is recommendable?
A few general questions:
WHEN do a tuned Diesel car smoke?
I think the most smoke is on low rpm and WOT right?
As a daily driver I dont need WOT often, so I could drive very ordinary?
Ok, I was reading a little bit in WIS, and if I have understood it correctly, the ALDA-equipment should reduce black smoke at WOT and low rpm, so when the turbo spools not fast and produces little boost? Am I right so far?
So is it the best decision to swap the E pump against the m pump from 602, WITH ALDA?
If you put larger delivery valves in an electric pump and dont change the fuel maps you will get smoke. The ECU is fairly dumb so has no idea you have more fuel going in and cant govern it efficiently. I dont really know but I have read hear that the Bosch 7mm delivery valves aren't very good and give a bad idle. They were meant for a Ford transit apparently.
You should get a 602 TD pump without too much trouble. I got mine on eBay from Germany with the help of another forum member who knew what to look for in German. You shouldn't have the language problem though :-)
they smoke when there is too much fuel. Yes this is what the ALDA is for but adjusting it for now smoke will lead to a longer spool time. Its a chicken and egg, you need fuel to spool but too much makes smoke. Its made worse by using larger turbos that spool slower anyway. Its tunning in general though, you change one thing and something else gets messed up so you compromise. With some careful setting up though it can be done.
If you put larger delivery valves in an electric pump and dont change the fuel maps you will get smoke. The ECU is fairly dumb so has no idea you have more fuel going in and cant govern it efficiently. I dont really know but I have read hear that the Bosch 7mm delivery valves aren't very good and give a bad idle. They were meant for a Ford transit apparently.
You should get a 602 TD pump without too much trouble. I got mine on eBay from Germany with the help of another forum member who knew what to look for in German. You shouldn't have the language problem though :-)
Get a 250TD, log the EGT and MAP, then I will begin to tune it.
First with increasing boost of OEM turbo, if this would be successfull, I will search for an bigger turbo.
A few question are left, maybe mantahead could help me.
What did you change in your ECU for the 3xxHP?
How's the power without changing ECU, do you remember?
And why wasnt it nice to drive?
So, my plan for summer:
Get a 250TD, log the EGT and MAP, then I will begin to tune it.
First with increasing boost of OEM turbo, if this would be successfull, I will search for an bigger turbo.
A few question are left, maybe mantahead could help me.
What did you change in your ECU for the 3xxHP?
How's the power without changing ECU, do you remember?
And why wasnt it nice to drive?
(01-10-2013, 07:55 AM)0815 So, my plan for summer:you need to burn the eprom chips of the board and fit reflashable ones.
Get a 250TD, log the EGT and MAP, then I will begin to tune it.
First with increasing boost of OEM turbo, if this would be successfull, I will search for an bigger turbo.
A few question are left, maybe mantahead could help me.
What did you change in your ECU for the 3xxHP?
How's the power without changing ECU, do you remember?
And why wasnt it nice to drive?
You really need to fit chip holders on the board. Remap guy should be able to do this, mine removed all rev limiters and we could only get 5500rpm with about 300bhp. think map was still standard, it was ok to drive like this. The extra power came from potentiometer fitted between two wires on pump harness to original throttle potentiometer,(368bhp) this left it not nice to drive, but give 68bhp and sounded very lumpy.
This is what it sounds like with potentiometer fitted.
http://youtu.be/a03K6wZxwq0
I think i was getting about 260bhp without touching ecu, but with large turbo you need revs to make power. I was having some problems with limp mode but can't remember whether potentiometer was on or off.
(01-10-2013, 07:55 AM)0815 So, my plan for summer:you need to burn the eprom chips of the board and fit reflashable ones.
Get a 250TD, log the EGT and MAP, then I will begin to tune it.
First with increasing boost of OEM turbo, if this would be successfull, I will search for an bigger turbo.
A few question are left, maybe mantahead could help me.
What did you change in your ECU for the 3xxHP?
How's the power without changing ECU, do you remember?
And why wasnt it nice to drive?
You really need to fit chip holders on the board. Remap guy should be able to do this, mine removed all rev limiters and we could only get 5500rpm with about 300bhp. think map was still standard, it was ok to drive like this. The extra power came from potentiometer fitted between two wires on pump harness to original throttle potentiometer,(368bhp) this left it not nice to drive, but give 68bhp and sounded very lumpy.
This is what it sounds like with potentiometer fitted.
http://youtu.be/a03K6wZxwq0
I think i was getting about 260bhp without touching ecu, but with large turbo you need revs to make power. I was having some problems with limp mode but can't remember whether potentiometer was on or off.
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