IP Problem?
IP Problem?
My car was running pretty good for the last couple weeks after getting it back on the road post engine swap (another story in itself). Started right up after one glow, every time. Now, it won’t start.
When the engine went into the car I did the following
-Valves
-Oil & filter
- Primary & secondary fuel filters
-Drained tank and cleaned tank screen, filled with fresh fuel and 1 qt ATF
-Removed EGR (not really relevant though)
-and other stuff I can’t remember right now
Point being, all new fluids and filters, with valves adjusted. Also checked timing chain stretch using the cam marks, which showed 5*ATDC.
Hot compression as follows:
1- 280
2- 280
3- 340
4- 280
5- 320
I realize these numbers aren’t spectacular, but I don’t consider them to be horrible. I had no problem starting the car, so they didn’t bother me.
Yesterday I decided it would be good to do a diesel purge, so I got everything set up with my extra hoses and a plastic jug in place of the washer tank. The car started up and idled, and revved through the full RPM range just fine. Then when I went to back out of the garage, up our slanted driveway, the car sputtered for a few seconds and died.
To make a long story shorter, I went about cracking various lines after hooking the fuel supply and return back up to the regular fuel tank. I can get fuel up to the primary filter, then out of the banjo bolt feeding the secondary filter, then out of the filter housing. However, when cracking the injector lines at the top of the IP, #1,2 and 3 do not pump fuel. #4 and 5 do pump fuel.
What do y’all think?
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
So here’s the story:
My car was running pretty good for the last couple weeks after getting it back on the road post engine swap (another story in itself). Started right up after one glow, every time. Now, it won’t start.
When the engine went into the car I did the following
-Valves
-Oil & filter
- Primary & secondary fuel filters
-Drained tank and cleaned tank screen, filled with fresh fuel and 1 qt ATF
-Removed EGR (not really relevant though)
-and other stuff I can’t remember right now
Point being, all new fluids and filters, with valves adjusted. Also checked timing chain stretch using the cam marks, which showed 5*ATDC.
Hot compression as follows:
1- 280
2- 280
3- 340
4- 280
5- 320
I realize these numbers aren’t spectacular, but I don’t consider them to be horrible. I had no problem starting the car, so they didn’t bother me.
Yesterday I decided it would be good to do a diesel purge, so I got everything set up with my extra hoses and a plastic jug in place of the washer tank. The car started up and idled, and revved through the full RPM range just fine. Then when I went to back out of the garage, up our slanted driveway, the car sputtered for a few seconds and died.
To make a long story shorter, I went about cracking various lines after hooking the fuel supply and return back up to the regular fuel tank. I can get fuel up to the primary filter, then out of the banjo bolt feeding the secondary filter, then out of the filter housing. However, when cracking the injector lines at the top of the IP, #1,2 and 3 do not pump fuel. #4 and 5 do pump fuel.
What do y’all think?
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
...and use ATF in the transmission, not the fuel tank.
ForcedInduction
07-16-2009, 12:56 AM
#2
Try swapping the supply return hoses and blowing air back through the lines to clear them out.
...and use ATF in the transmission, not the fuel tank.
First I tried swapping the supply and return lines. No change, so I put them back to normal.
Then tried messing with vacuum lines. Removed each of the three lines to the IP individually; no result. Removed both lines from the fuel cutoff (plastic part); no result. Replaced all lines.
Decided I would try using a separate fuel system again, so I rigged up a set of lines with the supply coming from one bottle of fuel and the return going to a different, empty, bottle. Fuel was transferred from the supply bottle into the return bottle. While using this method the car almost started, or at least sounded like it wants to. I had a few sputters but no running.
Someone suggested examining a check ball inside the relief valve on the back side of the IP. I will check this tomorrow.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
After getting advice here and on mshop, I set to work trying a few more things.
First I tried swapping the supply and return lines. No change, so I put them back to normal.
Then tried messing with vacuum lines. Removed each of the three lines to the IP individually; no result. Removed both lines from the fuel cutoff (plastic part); no result. Replaced all lines.
Decided I would try using a separate fuel system again, so I rigged up a set of lines with the supply coming from one bottle of fuel and the return going to a different, empty, bottle. Fuel was transferred from the supply bottle into the return bottle. While using this method the car almost started, or at least sounded like it wants to. I had a few sputters but no running.
Someone suggested examining a check ball inside the relief valve on the back side of the IP. I will check this tomorrow.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
07-17-2009, 01:06 AM #4Have you tried pumping the primer pump 50 times? If not, then pump it 50 times... Yes 50 times. You'll get a work out... but it will get the fuel where it needs to be and send most of the air out. Also, make sure your primer pump is not leaking in air.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
New primer pump. Pumped it 50 times. Nothing.
Wired the glow plugs directly to a positive source, and glowed for over 1 minute. Nothing.
I'm at a loss.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
Removed the check ball and spring from the side of the IP facing the block. Ball was not stuck. Stretched the spring to 28mm, nothing.
New primer pump. Pumped it 50 times. Nothing.
Wired the glow plugs directly to a positive source, and glowed for over 1 minute. Nothing.
I'm at a loss.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
07-19-2009, 01:06 AM #6How long to did you crank it? Did it sounds like it's going to catch? Have you tried flooring it while cranking for a long while?
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
I DID sound like it was going to catch yesterday, but not today.
I've tried pumping it, holding it about half throttle and flooring it, but not for a really long period of time.
I'll give it another shot tomorrow since I REALLY don't want to swap pumps.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
I cranked it for probably 30 seconds during each trial. I drained the battery and had to hook it up to my jumper box and put it on 250A start mode.
I DID sound like it was going to catch yesterday, but not today.
I've tried pumping it, holding it about half throttle and flooring it, but not for a really long period of time.
I'll give it another shot tomorrow since I REALLY don't want to swap pumps.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
(07-19-2009, 01:32 AM)tantank79 I cranked it for probably 30 seconds during each trial. I drained the battery and had to hook it up to my jumper box and put it on 250A start mode.
I DID sound like it was going to catch yesterday, but not today.
I've tried pumping it, holding it about half throttle and flooring it, but not for a really long period of time.
I'll give it another shot tomorrow since I REALLY don't want to swap pumps.
Have you tried disconnecting the shutoff, maybe its getting vacuum to it while cranking somehow?
I feel your pain, I'm having some probs with my TD and hope I don't need to swap pumps.
GileadGarage
07-20-2009, 11:36 PM #9(07-19-2009, 01:32 AM)tantank79 I cranked it for probably 30 seconds during each trial. I drained the battery and had to hook it up to my jumper box and put it on 250A start mode.
I DID sound like it was going to catch yesterday, but not today.
I've tried pumping it, holding it about half throttle and flooring it, but not for a really long period of time.
I'll give it another shot tomorrow since I REALLY don't want to swap pumps.
Have you tried disconnecting the shutoff, maybe its getting vacuum to it while cranking somehow?
I feel your pain, I'm having some probs with my TD and hope I don't need to swap pumps.
Tried to start it with my foot planted to the floor. Cranked it over until the battery showed noticeable discharge and the starter slowed down. Nothing.
I also figured I should check the timing chain to make sure it hadn't skipped a tooth or something. Still about 5-6* of stretch; pointer shows 5-6* after top dead center. This is the same as my last check which was during the time period when the car ran.
After cranking the engine over A LOT, I seemed to smell exhaust, or something similar. Not necessarily near the rear of the car though. This could be unrelated, just throwing it out.
I will get to the drip timing later this week or weekend.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
Ok, got a little more time in tonight. Disconnected the shutoff vacuum hose (metal canister on IP rear) for all cranking.
Tried to start it with my foot planted to the floor. Cranked it over until the battery showed noticeable discharge and the starter slowed down. Nothing.
I also figured I should check the timing chain to make sure it hadn't skipped a tooth or something. Still about 5-6* of stretch; pointer shows 5-6* after top dead center. This is the same as my last check which was during the time period when the car ran.
After cranking the engine over A LOT, I seemed to smell exhaust, or something similar. Not necessarily near the rear of the car though. This could be unrelated, just throwing it out.
I will get to the drip timing later this week or weekend.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
GREASY_BEAST
07-22-2009, 07:05 AM #12Loosen the injector lines at the injectors and crank again until every one leaks fuel. The pump will have a hell of a time trying to push air through the injectors, so make sure its solid fuel all the way up.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
In the first post he mentions that certain arent getting fuel. Hence my suggestion for remocing the delivery valve and seeing if any fuel surfaces.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Note that while performing this operation, I did not line up anything timing related. I just wanted to see if fuel would come out of the pump. Maybe this explains why 4 did not deliver fuel, but I cannot be sure.
Even though 4 didn't seem to be working I wanted to see if I could get fuel up the injectors on 1,2, and 3 now. With the pump barrels all put back together and fuel right to the top of each one (except 4), I reinstalled the injector lines to the IP and gave it a few cranks. Fuel was only delivered to 5.
What the heck is going on?!
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
Went ahead and pulled all the delivery valves tonight. I left the tops of the barrels open, with the spring, valve, and drum thing removed. Disconnected the shutoff, held the rack open, and pumped away on the primer. 1,2,3 and 5 delivered fuel; 4 did not. Recall that while cranking the engine earlier, only 4 and 5 delivered fuel. However, when I had removed the tops of the pump barrels to access the delivery valves only minutes earlier, all of them contained fuel.
Note that while performing this operation, I did not line up anything timing related. I just wanted to see if fuel would come out of the pump. Maybe this explains why 4 did not deliver fuel, but I cannot be sure.
Even though 4 didn't seem to be working I wanted to see if I could get fuel up the injectors on 1,2, and 3 now. With the pump barrels all put back together and fuel right to the top of each one (except 4), I reinstalled the injector lines to the IP and gave it a few cranks. Fuel was only delivered to 5.
What the heck is going on?!
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
I doubt this could lead to a no start problem, but could the breather be completely plugged?
GileadGarage
07-29-2009, 11:45 PM #15Are you getting fuel out of the return while cranking? Have you tried pumping the primer pump while trying to start? maybe it makes a difference which would narrow things down. Could you have sucked a rag or something into the intake?
I doubt this could lead to a no start problem, but could the breather be completely plugged?
After reading your power loss thread I figured I would give the breather a shot. I tried starting it with the breather hose off and the oil cap off. No go.
Thanks for all of the suggestions guys. Looks like I will be swapping the pumps sometime soon.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
Yes and yes. Even though I doubted the air cleaner scenario, I checked it. All clear.
After reading your power loss thread I figured I would give the breather a shot. I tried starting it with the breather hose off and the oil cap off. No go.
Thanks for all of the suggestions guys. Looks like I will be swapping the pumps sometime soon.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
I decided to try one more thing before removing the pump. I cranked the engine over with the delivery valves in place, but the lines off of the pump, not just cracked. #4 and #5 shot fuel into the air with each engine revolution. #1,2 and 3 did not. Same result as early on. This leads me to believe there is some internal pump problem. Any idea why these plungers would flow fuel, but not actually pump it?
I plan to remove the pump tomorrow. Both my old and new pumps have marks on one mounting ear I assume are timing marks. Is this correct and should lining these up get me close enough to start the car?
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
So I realized I'm a dummy. In reference to my post about removing the delivery valves and not getting fuel from #4. This because I did not rotate the engine while checking the fuel delivery, so #4 was in some position where it would not flow fuel.
I decided to try one more thing before removing the pump. I cranked the engine over with the delivery valves in place, but the lines off of the pump, not just cracked. #4 and #5 shot fuel into the air with each engine revolution. #1,2 and 3 did not. Same result as early on. This leads me to believe there is some internal pump problem. Any idea why these plungers would flow fuel, but not actually pump it?
I plan to remove the pump tomorrow. Both my old and new pumps have marks on one mounting ear I assume are timing marks. Is this correct and should lining these up get me close enough to start the car?
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
(08-04-2009, 09:11 PM)tantank79 #4 and #5 shot fuel into the air with each engine revolution. #1,2 and 3 did not. Same result as early on. This leads me to believe there is some internal pump problem. Any idea why these plungers would flow fuel, but not actually pump it?
I plan to remove the pump tomorrow. Both my old and new pumps have marks on one mounting ear I assume are timing marks. Is this correct and should lining these up get me close enough to start the car?
A guess: could it be worn-out springs in the elements that only cause the follower to ride the cam when there is back-pressure in the system? No way to check without tearing apart the IP, and I don't know whether this ever happens in an IP.
Another guess: something wrong with the DVs on #1, #2, #3?
I wouldn't rely on someone else's timing marks. Just time it with the drip tool.
GREASY_BEAST
08-09-2009, 02:12 PM #18(08-04-2009, 09:11 PM)tantank79 #4 and #5 shot fuel into the air with each engine revolution. #1,2 and 3 did not. Same result as early on. This leads me to believe there is some internal pump problem. Any idea why these plungers would flow fuel, but not actually pump it?
I plan to remove the pump tomorrow. Both my old and new pumps have marks on one mounting ear I assume are timing marks. Is this correct and should lining these up get me close enough to start the car?
A guess: could it be worn-out springs in the elements that only cause the follower to ride the cam when there is back-pressure in the system? No way to check without tearing apart the IP, and I don't know whether this ever happens in an IP.
Another guess: something wrong with the DVs on #1, #2, #3?
I wouldn't rely on someone else's timing marks. Just time it with the drip tool.
I swapped in my spare IP, timed, purged, cranked, cranked some more, and it started up!
As far as what happened inside the old one, your quess is as good as mine. I really have no idea. I will tear it apart eventually.
Thank you to EVERYONE for their advice!
When I figure out what happened to the old IP, I will post an update here.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
IT'S ALIVE!!!
I swapped in my spare IP, timed, purged, cranked, cranked some more, and it started up!
As far as what happened inside the old one, your quess is as good as mine. I really have no idea. I will tear it apart eventually.
Thank you to EVERYONE for their advice!
When I figure out what happened to the old IP, I will post an update here.
-Brian
1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
08-14-2009, 09:37 AM #20glad to hear its alive! do keep us informed!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
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