GS6-53 ZF Gearbox > OM606 Adapter
GS6-53 ZF Gearbox > OM606 Adapter
While others have successfully used the GS5 boxes, it has required cut-and-weld of bellhousings to achieve because housing of GS5 is too small to accommodate Mercedes starter ring.
In contrast the GS6-53DZ has same ID as Merc boxes (around 324mm) which means in theory I should be able to fabricate an adapter plate which would make life easier in some senses (simple alignment) -perhaps more difficult in others (plate will add dept so maybe flywheel have to be moved forward).
GS6 has other advantages too. Not only is it 6 speed, but it is rated by ZF @ 530Nm which, given that GS5-39DZ box (390Nm) can reportedly handle 1000Nm, should make it even more robust.
Disadvantage is cost - GS5 can often be bought in UK for $300, GS6 is typically north of $1300
I thought I'd document my progress here anyway. I will machine some additional adapters for people that want them (@cost - TBC)
Pics will be on my flickr account here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/benstoneham...121553411/ I will also post some here
My thoughts at the moment are around:
1. Fabrication of adapter
- material choice (steel I think)
- thickness (enough to secure studs that will be required, but not any thicker than it needs to be)
- template fabrication / translation into CAD file. I am planning to use 2x perspex disc with 15mm centre hole and rod for alignment. Mark out holes and locator pins accurately and then take measurements from known point.
2. Spacing and alignment
- Even without plate, how is spacing for Merc flywheel (I have 240mm solid flywheel from sprinter) and BM gearbox?
- What happens when you add plate - can clutch adjust to compensate or will flywheel need to be spaced (or made custom?)
- How accurate must pilot alignment be - what is maximum runout?
- What about pilot bearing size, BMW is 15.3mm I think, not sure about Mercedes
3. Choice of Clutch
- I am shooting for 450HP which will be around 800Nm I think (please correct me if my assumption is wrong), how should I select a clutch?
- Twin plate vs single? Application is desert race, clutch needs to be strong and friendly
- Flywheel - any modifications to flywheel? many twin plate race clutches are less than 240mm, perhaps I will need to re-machine.
More questions as I think of them..
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
As I'd mentioned on other threads, I'm working on transplant of a GS6-53DZ transmission along with OM606 into my G-class.
While others have successfully used the GS5 boxes, it has required cut-and-weld of bellhousings to achieve because housing of GS5 is too small to accommodate Mercedes starter ring.
In contrast the GS6-53DZ has same ID as Merc boxes (around 324mm) which means in theory I should be able to fabricate an adapter plate which would make life easier in some senses (simple alignment) -perhaps more difficult in others (plate will add dept so maybe flywheel have to be moved forward).
GS6 has other advantages too. Not only is it 6 speed, but it is rated by ZF @ 530Nm which, given that GS5-39DZ box (390Nm) can reportedly handle 1000Nm, should make it even more robust.
Disadvantage is cost - GS5 can often be bought in UK for $300, GS6 is typically north of $1300
I thought I'd document my progress here anyway. I will machine some additional adapters for people that want them (@cost - TBC)
Pics will be on my flickr account here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/benstoneham...121553411/ I will also post some here
My thoughts at the moment are around:
1. Fabrication of adapter
- material choice (steel I think)
- thickness (enough to secure studs that will be required, but not any thicker than it needs to be)
- template fabrication / translation into CAD file. I am planning to use 2x perspex disc with 15mm centre hole and rod for alignment. Mark out holes and locator pins accurately and then take measurements from known point.
2. Spacing and alignment
- Even without plate, how is spacing for Merc flywheel (I have 240mm solid flywheel from sprinter) and BM gearbox?
- What happens when you add plate - can clutch adjust to compensate or will flywheel need to be spaced (or made custom?)
- How accurate must pilot alignment be - what is maximum runout?
- What about pilot bearing size, BMW is 15.3mm I think, not sure about Mercedes
3. Choice of Clutch
- I am shooting for 450HP which will be around 800Nm I think (please correct me if my assumption is wrong), how should I select a clutch?
- Twin plate vs single? Application is desert race, clutch needs to be strong and friendly
- Flywheel - any modifications to flywheel? many twin plate race clutches are less than 240mm, perhaps I will need to re-machine.
More questions as I think of them..
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Twin disc will generally be better for overall torque capacity.
If you are considering using a clutch like Tilton, you are likely better off making your own flywheel. Then you can machine it to accept whatever input shaft/pilot bearing combo you want as well...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-15-2013, 11:29 AM #2Just to clarify: will this will be race-only, or are you going to need to drive it to the desert? What do you mean by friendly?
Twin disc will generally be better for overall torque capacity.
If you are considering using a clutch like Tilton, you are likely better off making your own flywheel. Then you can machine it to accept whatever input shaft/pilot bearing combo you want as well...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
No, not race only - we will have to drive around 1600 miles to get to Tunisia and back and I will want to drive it after that (not daily, but on road).
Friendly - I meant to inexperienced driver.. It will need to take more punishment than an experienced competitor might hand out for example.
Machining flywheel is an option -I guess clutch plate supplier is best to ask re choice of steel. How about weight though? Should Sprinter flywheel be starting point as a good basis do you think?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
good questions..
No, not race only - we will have to drive around 1600 miles to get to Tunisia and back and I will want to drive it after that (not daily, but on road).
Friendly - I meant to inexperienced driver.. It will need to take more punishment than an experienced competitor might hand out for example.
Machining flywheel is an option -I guess clutch plate supplier is best to ask re choice of steel. How about weight though? Should Sprinter flywheel be starting point as a good basis do you think?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
05-15-2013, 04:42 PM #4A heavy flywheel is easier to drive if you're a newbie.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
I'd stay away from a full race clutch like a Tilton in your case. (with a potential exception of their Carbon-Carbon version, but your into several grand for those...even used)
I also 2nd the recommendation about using the heaviest flywheel you can fit...especially on a diesel. I know my 300D with OM617 was MUCH happier at low speed takeoffs (like in city traffic) with the heavier GD flywheel, made it much more pleaseant to drive. I never noticed a difference fitting lighter racing flywheels on gas engines though. I have also never tried a lighter flywheel on a M-B 6 cyl diesel, but I'd imagine it'd be less of an issue.
I really like the option posted by swecias above...would love to fit a dual disc C-C clutch once I get more power out of my engine...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-20-2013, 02:27 PM #7Ok, so a twin plate is generally going to also be more "friendly" to a an inexperienced driver...especially at higher torque handling capacity (again also generally, there are other factors)
I'd stay away from a full race clutch like a Tilton in your case. (with a potential exception of their Carbon-Carbon version, but your into several grand for those...even used)
I also 2nd the recommendation about using the heaviest flywheel you can fit...especially on a diesel. I know my 300D with OM617 was MUCH happier at low speed takeoffs (like in city traffic) with the heavier GD flywheel, made it much more pleaseant to drive. I never noticed a difference fitting lighter racing flywheels on gas engines though. I have also never tried a lighter flywheel on a M-B 6 cyl diesel, but I'd imagine it'd be less of an issue.
I really like the option posted by swecias above...would love to fit a dual disc C-C clutch once I get more power out of my engine...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
Good news is that I test fitted the perspex template which has now been machined for engine pattern and everything lined up as I hoped
![[Image: 9826365436_3506a1be45_b.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3722/9826365436_3506a1be45_b.jpg)
![[Image: 9826334274_6ab3a3dc9b_b.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/9826334274_6ab3a3dc9b_b.jpg)
(fullsize and more pics on my flickr account)
To do transmission side - in the end I gave up on the idea of marking up by hand and found another transmission (with the new BMW bellhousing pattern that matched GS6- it changed in late 00s I think) that was cheap enough to sacrifice at the alter of the angle-grinder.
![[Image: 9650856111_299be5f353_b.jpg]](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5460/9650856111_299be5f353_b.jpg)
![[Image: 9654091134_13fc74a798_b.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7407/9654091134_13fc74a798_b.jpg)
I have made some decisions on clutch and adapter plate too.
Clutch will be Tilton 7.25" multiplate cerametallic with their 44mm 8000 series hydraulic release bearing.
I guess I won't know for sure whether this is the best decision until we try it, but having talked to lots of people this was the most common recommendation to take account of how friendly it was to drive and ability to take heat and power. I appreciate a couple of people here have recommended against full race clutch and I don't like to ignore advice given in good faith, but on balance this was what I thought was the way to go. We'll see if I regret it!
Adapter plate is to be 20mm, steel which seems is a sensible thickness to allow blind holes for studs on each side.
Flywheel is the other issue.
At the moment plan is to use auto trans flexplate with button style flywheel machined from 4340.
Dept of adapter plate + recessed spindle on BMW transmission (pilot bearing on this in in nose of spindle, not flywheel) will require complete flywheel (boss on back + thickness of friction surface) to approach 75mm deep from face of crank! I plan to have complete assembly balanced which I think it will definitely need to be!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
I've been making some progress on this.. though with a complete strip and rebuilt to do, as well as moving my workshop it has been a bit slow to progress!
Good news is that I test fitted the perspex template which has now been machined for engine pattern and everything lined up as I hoped
(fullsize and more pics on my flickr account)
To do transmission side - in the end I gave up on the idea of marking up by hand and found another transmission (with the new BMW bellhousing pattern that matched GS6- it changed in late 00s I think) that was cheap enough to sacrifice at the alter of the angle-grinder.
I have made some decisions on clutch and adapter plate too.
Clutch will be Tilton 7.25" multiplate cerametallic with their 44mm 8000 series hydraulic release bearing.
I guess I won't know for sure whether this is the best decision until we try it, but having talked to lots of people this was the most common recommendation to take account of how friendly it was to drive and ability to take heat and power. I appreciate a couple of people here have recommended against full race clutch and I don't like to ignore advice given in good faith, but on balance this was what I thought was the way to go. We'll see if I regret it!
Adapter plate is to be 20mm, steel which seems is a sensible thickness to allow blind holes for studs on each side.
Flywheel is the other issue.
At the moment plan is to use auto trans flexplate with button style flywheel machined from 4340.
Dept of adapter plate + recessed spindle on BMW transmission (pilot bearing on this in in nose of spindle, not flywheel) will require complete flywheel (boss on back + thickness of friction surface) to approach 75mm deep from face of crank! I plan to have complete assembly balanced which I think it will definitely need to be!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
![[Image: 9835534046_c29656326b_b.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7406/9835534046_c29656326b_b.jpg)
The suggestion was to make it with a dish:
![[Image: 9895741904_08f5808f93_b.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3737/9895741904_08f5808f93_b.jpg)
This will mean dish dept of 50mm. Anyone have any comments on this good/bad/ other?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
So feedback from clutch supplier was they thought that solid clutch boss like this was a bad idea because bolts would be very long.
The suggestion was to make it with a dish:
This will mean dish dept of 50mm. Anyone have any comments on this good/bad/ other?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
I am impressed by the detail with which you are approaching this project.
Have you been able to "lay out" the MB block bolt pattern and crankshaft centerline for CNC purposes.
I have a project where I'd like to use an OM606 with a Doug Nash 5-speed transmission (General Motors Bellhousing).
Any chance that you could share the pattern?
Related to the dish - that would have to start out as a very thick piece of steel.
I understand the supplier's concern about the bolts. However, if you used a dowel pin arrangement in addition to the bolts, this could still be a very strong assembly. You would want the solid pins to transfer the torque and provide the critical alignment, while the bolts provide clamping force.
Alternatively, it might be possible to "Wedge Mate" the adapter and the rear of the crankshaft. This kind of connection is extremely strong, but very difficult to dis-assemble.
Steve.
That vapor cleaning is impressive, also.
4340 is one of the most hardenable of all common steel grades. Have you considered other readily available alloys of steel (4130?)
Something like 4130 would afford the option of welding the flywheel and adapter into 1 piece, then recessing the mounting bolts into the hub.
Steve.
Beautiful work and drawings!
I am impressed by the detail with which you are approaching this project.
Have you been able to "lay out" the MB block bolt pattern and crankshaft centerline for CNC purposes.
I have a project where I'd like to use an OM606 with a Doug Nash 5-speed transmission (General Motors Bellhousing).
Any chance that you could share the pattern?
Related to the dish - that would have to start out as a very thick piece of steel.
I understand the supplier's concern about the bolts. However, if you used a dowel pin arrangement in addition to the bolts, this could still be a very strong assembly. You would want the solid pins to transfer the torque and provide the critical alignment, while the bolts provide clamping force.
Alternatively, it might be possible to "Wedge Mate" the adapter and the rear of the crankshaft. This kind of connection is extremely strong, but very difficult to dis-assemble.
Steve.
That vapor cleaning is impressive, also.
4340 is one of the most hardenable of all common steel grades. Have you considered other readily available alloys of steel (4130?)
Something like 4130 would afford the option of welding the flywheel and adapter into 1 piece, then recessing the mounting bolts into the hub.
Steve.
(09-23-2013, 08:10 PM)Jetmugg Beautiful work and drawings!
I am impressed by the detail with which you are approaching this project.
Have you been able to "lay out" the MB block bolt pattern and crankshaft centerline for CNC purposes.
I have a project where I'd like to use an OM606 with a Doug Nash 5-speed transmission (General Motors Bellhousing).
Any chance that you could share the pattern?
Related to the dish - that would have to start out as a very thick piece of steel.
I understand the supplier's concern about the bolts. However, if you used a dowel pin arrangement in addition to the bolts, this could still be a very strong assembly. You would want the solid pins to transfer the torque and provide the critical alignment, while the bolts provide clamping force.
Alternatively, it might be possible to "Wedge Mate" the adapter and the rear of the crankshaft. This kind of connection is extremely strong, but very difficult to dis-assemble.
Steve.
That vapor cleaning is impressive, also.
4340 is one of the most hardenable of all common steel grades. Have you considered other readily available alloys of steel (4130?)
Something like 4130 would afford the option of welding the flywheel and adapter into 1 piece, then recessing the mounting bolts into the hub.
Steve.
Thanks :-) drawings were just done in Visio, nothing special.. Rhino is tool I learned with but I am migrating skills to Solidworks slowly.. amazing piece of software though.
Both MB Block pattern and now BMW have been mapped. Mercedes was easy - I unbolted the front from the auto trans that was originally on this block and ran it up on bridgeport with DRO.
BMW patter proved more tricky initially. I didn't want to unbolt the transmission bellhousing as it is integral - lots of things could have fallen out! It was to deep to fit under Bridgeport and in any case would have been difficult to mount in place.
Plan A was then to find a used transmission with same pattern which was tricky since this is the latest version of e46 transmission (post 'LCI' in 2008-ish I am told) so not too many available at the kind of money you would want to cut one up at.
In the end I did find a GS6-37 box (also by ZF) which is shorter than 53, but same pattern. I cut the front off this with the intention of measuring under Bridgeport, but it transpired that mounting pattern holes are not on accurate PDC, so making sure of centre was a problem (probably variations in casting process?). I was concerned about runout on driveshaft/ clutchplate with this approach (advice has been that no more than < 8tho runout is acceptable).
Pictures of this transmission and surgery are on my flickr account.
Plan B came about when I found someone with Faro arm - coordinate measuring system accurate to 25 microns (0.0001") local to me.
Its a great piece of kit. I haven't seen one used before, but honestly if I was doing this sort of thing regularly it would be a fantastic tool - reverse engineer almost anything (he also has a RevScan, but that's another story!)
Using the arm, we measured out and plotted bellhousing pattern, including all major surface planes (engine mount, rear of housing bulkhead, lengths of shafts etc etc) in about 20 minutes.
![[Image: 9920710175_4139b885a0_b.jpg]](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5326/9920710175_4139b885a0_b.jpg)
File was exported to Iges which I could then import to Rhino, export as DXF into Solidoworks and then produce accurate 2D drawing with pattern and precise coordinates.
![[Image: 9920741636_81f205001e_b.jpg]](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5343/9920741636_81f205001e_b.jpg)
Sharing the pattern? Sure, definitely.
Just hold on until I have made sure it is correct and then I will open-source it (I work in software and my buisiness has been built on these principles). I will post it here within the next couple of weeks as both PDF drawing and DXF file.
Thanks for advice on flywheel. I will investigate the possibility of additional dowels.
One problem that I thought about today with this 'dish' design is that transmission driveshaft needs to locate its pilot bearing into something.. I could have a short 'stub' shaft coming off the front of the flywheel I guess or maybe a pilot bearing also and then a short intermediate shaft between the two.
4340 was the recommendation from Tilton so that was why I chose it. Billet 4340 is readily available here too (250mm x 120mm is around $225). I don't have much experience machining anything other than mild steel and aluminium .. I'll have to learn as I go I think!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(09-23-2013, 08:10 PM)Jetmugg Beautiful work and drawings!
I am impressed by the detail with which you are approaching this project.
Have you been able to "lay out" the MB block bolt pattern and crankshaft centerline for CNC purposes.
I have a project where I'd like to use an OM606 with a Doug Nash 5-speed transmission (General Motors Bellhousing).
Any chance that you could share the pattern?
Related to the dish - that would have to start out as a very thick piece of steel.
I understand the supplier's concern about the bolts. However, if you used a dowel pin arrangement in addition to the bolts, this could still be a very strong assembly. You would want the solid pins to transfer the torque and provide the critical alignment, while the bolts provide clamping force.
Alternatively, it might be possible to "Wedge Mate" the adapter and the rear of the crankshaft. This kind of connection is extremely strong, but very difficult to dis-assemble.
Steve.
That vapor cleaning is impressive, also.
4340 is one of the most hardenable of all common steel grades. Have you considered other readily available alloys of steel (4130?)
Something like 4130 would afford the option of welding the flywheel and adapter into 1 piece, then recessing the mounting bolts into the hub.
Steve.
Thanks :-) drawings were just done in Visio, nothing special.. Rhino is tool I learned with but I am migrating skills to Solidworks slowly.. amazing piece of software though.
Both MB Block pattern and now BMW have been mapped. Mercedes was easy - I unbolted the front from the auto trans that was originally on this block and ran it up on bridgeport with DRO.
BMW patter proved more tricky initially. I didn't want to unbolt the transmission bellhousing as it is integral - lots of things could have fallen out! It was to deep to fit under Bridgeport and in any case would have been difficult to mount in place.
Plan A was then to find a used transmission with same pattern which was tricky since this is the latest version of e46 transmission (post 'LCI' in 2008-ish I am told) so not too many available at the kind of money you would want to cut one up at.
In the end I did find a GS6-37 box (also by ZF) which is shorter than 53, but same pattern. I cut the front off this with the intention of measuring under Bridgeport, but it transpired that mounting pattern holes are not on accurate PDC, so making sure of centre was a problem (probably variations in casting process?). I was concerned about runout on driveshaft/ clutchplate with this approach (advice has been that no more than < 8tho runout is acceptable).
Pictures of this transmission and surgery are on my flickr account.
Plan B came about when I found someone with Faro arm - coordinate measuring system accurate to 25 microns (0.0001") local to me.
Its a great piece of kit. I haven't seen one used before, but honestly if I was doing this sort of thing regularly it would be a fantastic tool - reverse engineer almost anything (he also has a RevScan, but that's another story!)
Using the arm, we measured out and plotted bellhousing pattern, including all major surface planes (engine mount, rear of housing bulkhead, lengths of shafts etc etc) in about 20 minutes.
File was exported to Iges which I could then import to Rhino, export as DXF into Solidoworks and then produce accurate 2D drawing with pattern and precise coordinates.
Sharing the pattern? Sure, definitely.
Just hold on until I have made sure it is correct and then I will open-source it (I work in software and my buisiness has been built on these principles). I will post it here within the next couple of weeks as both PDF drawing and DXF file.
Thanks for advice on flywheel. I will investigate the possibility of additional dowels.
One problem that I thought about today with this 'dish' design is that transmission driveshaft needs to locate its pilot bearing into something.. I could have a short 'stub' shaft coming off the front of the flywheel I guess or maybe a pilot bearing also and then a short intermediate shaft between the two.
4340 was the recommendation from Tilton so that was why I chose it. Billet 4340 is readily available here too (250mm x 120mm is around $225). I don't have much experience machining anything other than mild steel and aluminium .. I'll have to learn as I go I think!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
If you can share, that would be excellent.
I manage a manufacturing company with a small/medium machine shop. Our guys could make things like adapter plates pretty readily. We could also do a hub and plate out of a solid piece of 8" steel. We have 8" rounds in mild steel, but not alloy steels like 4340.
I think your initial idea has some good things going for it. If the hub and plate were made from 1 piece, you could countersink the bolts as deep as you want.
The two pieces could also be pinned and welded, then turned again on a lathe to make sure nothing has moved.
That Faro arm is a very nice piece, not the kind of thing that just anyone would have.
I think there's a small but serious demand for the kind of adapters to go from MB blocks to various transmissions.
Steve.
I'm a Metallurgical Engineer by education/profession, so I kind of "get into" materials selection. I was going to do a similar mapping exercise by placing an engine block and crank onto a large horizontal CNC mill and indicating in all the surfaces.
If you can share, that would be excellent.
I manage a manufacturing company with a small/medium machine shop. Our guys could make things like adapter plates pretty readily. We could also do a hub and plate out of a solid piece of 8" steel. We have 8" rounds in mild steel, but not alloy steels like 4340.
I think your initial idea has some good things going for it. If the hub and plate were made from 1 piece, you could countersink the bolts as deep as you want.
The two pieces could also be pinned and welded, then turned again on a lathe to make sure nothing has moved.
That Faro arm is a very nice piece, not the kind of thing that just anyone would have.
I think there's a small but serious demand for the kind of adapters to go from MB blocks to various transmissions.
Steve.
(09-24-2013, 07:55 PM)Jetmugg I'm a Metallurgical Engineer by education/profession, so I kind of "get into" materials selection. I was going to do a similar mapping exercise by placing an engine block and crank onto a large horizontal CNC mill and indicating in all the surfaces.
If you can share, that would be excellent.
I manage a manufacturing company with a small/medium machine shop. Our guys could make things like adapter plates pretty readily. We could also do a hub and plate out of a solid piece of 8" steel. We have 8" rounds in mild steel, but not alloy steels like 4340.
I think your initial idea has some good things going for it. If the hub and plate were made from 1 piece, you could countersink the bolts as deep as you want.
The two pieces could also be pinned and welded, then turned again on a lathe to make sure nothing has moved.
That Faro arm is a very nice piece, not the kind of thing that just anyone would have.
I think there's a small but serious demand for the kind of adapters to go from MB blocks to various transmissions.
Steve.
There is. I posted up my 617 pattern, it *appears* to be correct when printed 1:1 and I set the stock intermediate plate down on it.
Edit: post em' up on the sticky when you're confident the holes all line up:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-4939.html
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
09-25-2013, 06:57 AM #14(09-24-2013, 07:55 PM)Jetmugg I'm a Metallurgical Engineer by education/profession, so I kind of "get into" materials selection. I was going to do a similar mapping exercise by placing an engine block and crank onto a large horizontal CNC mill and indicating in all the surfaces.
If you can share, that would be excellent.
I manage a manufacturing company with a small/medium machine shop. Our guys could make things like adapter plates pretty readily. We could also do a hub and plate out of a solid piece of 8" steel. We have 8" rounds in mild steel, but not alloy steels like 4340.
I think your initial idea has some good things going for it. If the hub and plate were made from 1 piece, you could countersink the bolts as deep as you want.
The two pieces could also be pinned and welded, then turned again on a lathe to make sure nothing has moved.
That Faro arm is a very nice piece, not the kind of thing that just anyone would have.
I think there's a small but serious demand for the kind of adapters to go from MB blocks to various transmissions.
Steve.
There is. I posted up my 617 pattern, it *appears* to be correct when printed 1:1 and I set the stock intermediate plate down on it.
Edit: post em' up on the sticky when you're confident the holes all line up:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-4939.html
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
![[Image: Vauhtipyoerae_MB_OM606_-_618-765-ACT.jpg]](http://www.blingfactory.fi/WebRoot/vilkas02/Shops/20101220-11092-13436-1/510B/9065/57B6/5DD0/9426/0A28/1005/7D48/Vauhtipyoerae_MB_OM606_-_618-765-ACT.jpg)
http://Flywheel - Mercedes Benz OM606 - 618, 765, ACT
anyone seen these flywheels for sale.
http://Flywheel - Mercedes Benz OM606 - 618, 765, ACT
(09-27-2013, 05:35 PM)mantahead anyone seen these flywheels for sale.
http://Flywheel - Mercedes Benz OM606 - 618, 765, ACT
Link doesn't work, but looks interesting - where did you find it?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(09-27-2013, 05:35 PM)mantahead anyone seen these flywheels for sale.
http://Flywheel - Mercedes Benz OM606 - 618, 765, ACT
Link doesn't work, but looks interesting - where did you find it?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Overlay looks like this
![[Image: 10028367686_e08645f80d_b.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3790/10028367686_e08645f80d_b.jpg)
Inner circle is 312mm - I have to check dia of flexplate though, so don't assure this looks exactly right.
I'll tidy up and produce dimensioned drawings (one for each side) shortly.
I'm not a professional CAD engineer so I don't know what the correct way to indicate orientation but LHS will be marked on each drawing and drawings will all be from facing engine block perspective (you'll need to account for this when entering coordinates to drill plate otherwise its easy to end up with back-to-front adapter
)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Got the second set of measurements from the Merc bellhousing transcribed and into SW.
Overlay looks like this
Inner circle is 312mm - I have to check dia of flexplate though, so don't assure this looks exactly right.
I'll tidy up and produce dimensioned drawings (one for each side) shortly.
I'm not a professional CAD engineer so I don't know what the correct way to indicate orientation but LHS will be marked on each drawing and drawings will all be from facing engine block perspective (you'll need to account for this when entering coordinates to drill plate otherwise its easy to end up with back-to-front adapter )
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(09-29-2013, 03:28 AM)fcp(09-27-2013, 05:35 PM)mantahead anyone seen these flywheels for sale.
http://Flywheel - Mercedes Benz OM606 - 618, 765, ACT
Link doesn't work, but looks interesting - where did you find it?
Bling factory in Finland.
Wish they did a dual mass replacement with sre765 pressure plate for the merc six speed transmissions, but they don't.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
maxypriest
10-01-2013, 03:03 PM #19(09-29-2013, 03:28 AM)fcp(09-27-2013, 05:35 PM)mantahead anyone seen these flywheels for sale.
http://Flywheel - Mercedes Benz OM606 - 618, 765, ACT
Link doesn't work, but looks interesting - where did you find it?
Bling factory in Finland.
Wish they did a dual mass replacement with sre765 pressure plate for the merc six speed transmissions, but they don't.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
Drawings have been completed and I was ready to go.. I then realized something I had missed!
I had assumed that on both engine and transmission side I would retain plate with studs in the adapter and nuts either side of the engine and transmission flanges.
This works OK for transmission side, but to retain the adapter plate to the engine need to bolt through from the transmission side of the plate into the threaded holes on the engine flange - Something like M12 cap screws with countersinking.
This would be fine except the patterns clash in a couple of places meaning the head of the capscrew would conflict with the tapped hole for the stud on the transmission side. See below.
My options are I think either:
1. Drill out engine flange for 12mm bolts and proceed as planned with studs on both faces. This would probably be OK, except a couple of the holes are 'blind' (one is one of the ones that clashes too). Not sure what access is like to get to the nuts engine side.
2. Ignore the fasteners that clash on one side - transmission most likely. Unfortunately there are 3 of them in important places.
3. 2 plates, one for each side @ 12.5mm depth. Cap screws on engine side, studs for transmission then bolt the plates together, aligned with dowels. Technically this would work I think, but lots of extra machining and maybe a major PITA too far.
Any other ideas anyone?
![[Image: 10806201095_f71472c87f_b.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3684/10806201095_f71472c87f_b.jpg)
![[Image: 10806335274_9fa8accc33_b.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7387/10806335274_9fa8accc33_b.jpg)
![[Image: 10806201025_fe42747eb9_b.jpg]](http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/10806201025_fe42747eb9_b.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
So I have come to an engineering problem...
Drawings have been completed and I was ready to go.. I then realized something I had missed!
I had assumed that on both engine and transmission side I would retain plate with studs in the adapter and nuts either side of the engine and transmission flanges.
This works OK for transmission side, but to retain the adapter plate to the engine need to bolt through from the transmission side of the plate into the threaded holes on the engine flange - Something like M12 cap screws with countersinking.
This would be fine except the patterns clash in a couple of places meaning the head of the capscrew would conflict with the tapped hole for the stud on the transmission side. See below.
My options are I think either:
1. Drill out engine flange for 12mm bolts and proceed as planned with studs on both faces. This would probably be OK, except a couple of the holes are 'blind' (one is one of the ones that clashes too). Not sure what access is like to get to the nuts engine side.
2. Ignore the fasteners that clash on one side - transmission most likely. Unfortunately there are 3 of them in important places.
3. 2 plates, one for each side @ 12.5mm depth. Cap screws on engine side, studs for transmission then bolt the plates together, aligned with dowels. Technically this would work I think, but lots of extra machining and maybe a major PITA too far.
Any other ideas anyone?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
![[Image: 31FmUiyxm9L.jpg]](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31FmUiyxm9L.jpg)
Then you want to use press fit studs (aka wheel studs) to stick out for the transmission. Then put a nut & washer on the transmission to hold it in place.
![[Image: WheelStudNur021149088291.jpg]](http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads8/WheelStudNur021149088291.jpg)
Care to share your patterns?
Alternately, can you rotate the pattern a few degrees so that every hole has space? You would have to bend your shifter a little and make up an angled crossmember but I don't see any other problems.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-11-2013, 04:33 PM #22You want to use flat head screws to hold the plate to the engine.
Then you want to use press fit studs (aka wheel studs) to stick out for the transmission. Then put a nut & washer on the transmission to hold it in place.
Care to share your patterns?
Alternately, can you rotate the pattern a few degrees so that every hole has space? You would have to bend your shifter a little and make up an angled crossmember but I don't see any other problems.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
I did think about rotating pattern, but didn't pursue it because GS6 gearbox has mechanical linkage arrangement that I thought might make it difficult to 'bend' shifter. However, now that I think about it again, the angle is not extreme and it *would* make the neatest solution.
Patterns I will publish on files section soon. I just want to make sure they are correct first. If anyone would like CAD files before this, please PM me, but please do your own checking before machining anything!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Ahhh.. good thinking!
I did think about rotating pattern, but didn't pursue it because GS6 gearbox has mechanical linkage arrangement that I thought might make it difficult to 'bend' shifter. However, now that I think about it again, the angle is not extreme and it *would* make the neatest solution.
Patterns I will publish on files section soon. I just want to make sure they are correct first. If anyone would like CAD files before this, please PM me, but please do your own checking before machining anything!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-11-2013, 08:59 PM #24Slap it up there with a big warning disclaimer!
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
I'll post the DXF and Solidworks files over the weekend - they will be marked as 'release candidate' i.e. I'm pretty sure they are correct, but until I finally assemble then use at your own risk! I will release them under public license.
As you can see from the photos, the adapter has been offered up and looks good. Simpler - thank you for your help (and others too) on this. In the end I overcame the problem with pattern overlap by rotating each pattern 0.5 degrees around the center which in conjunction with capscrews and studs worked out OK.
Looking at the design again now, there are a couple of things I'd do differently next time; I'll report on how it works out as I put it all together.
![[Image: 12350001813_1f29a90dc1_h.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7435/12350001813_1f29a90dc1_h.jpg)
![[Image: 12350000563_742891e0b6_h.jpg]](http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2864/12350000563_742891e0b6_h.jpg)
![[Image: 12349874055_8567571c99_b.jpg]](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/12349874055_8567571c99_b.jpg)
![[Image: 12350280464_c323b2c287_b.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7377/12350280464_c323b2c287_b.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Sorry its been a while since I last posted, but have been ambushed with work since late last year.. anyway, some progress has been made and I now have a adapter fabricated that looks like it is going to work.
I'll post the DXF and Solidworks files over the weekend - they will be marked as 'release candidate' i.e. I'm pretty sure they are correct, but until I finally assemble then use at your own risk! I will release them under public license.
As you can see from the photos, the adapter has been offered up and looks good. Simpler - thank you for your help (and others too) on this. In the end I overcame the problem with pattern overlap by rotating each pattern 0.5 degrees around the center which in conjunction with capscrews and studs worked out OK.
Looking at the design again now, there are a couple of things I'd do differently next time; I'll report on how it works out as I put it all together.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Designs posted tonight http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thre...0#pid61000
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
No need, you can make one now :-)
Designs posted tonight http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thre...0#pid61000
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
I have not posted here for a couple of months as I got sick in February with Sepsis. I spent quite a bit of time in hospital, but am pleased to say that I will make a good recovery, though its going to take a little bit of time; consequently this project has unfortunately been on hold for this time.
However in the last couple of weeks I have started work again and with the adapter plate pretty much complete I have switched focus to the flywheel - the first designs of which I am pleased to show here for comment and critique!
As before I will publish the designs once I have a working version. Also as before I must emphasize that I am not an engineer by trade, so you have to forgive any obvious mistakes that a professional would not have made.
In addition to this, I am not a physicist either, so beyond high-school maths and physics calculations to determine efficiency or performance are not something I can undertake, though I have provided a screenshot from solidworks showing the physical properties of the flywheel, so if anyone can contribute anything in this direction it would be great.
The design parameters/ constraints around the flywheel are as follows:
1. The additional spacing of the adapter plate + recessed design of the GS6 gearbox means the flywheel has to be much thicker (deeper) than a conventional design so I needed to come up with something that could accomodate this offset while remaining strong, but not too heavy.
2. The middle 'tower' that rises up with the 'spigot' (not sure that else to call it) is to accommodate the fact that the GS6 gearbox has the pilot bearing on the input drive shaft, not on the flywheel (as is conventional). If you look at some pictures of the gearbox on my Flickr account (also bigger versions of below) you'll see how this looks.
3. The flywheel will be machined from a single billet block of 4340/EN24 steel. I was planning to do this myself on a manual Gap bed (Harrison M300), but having done the design I'm thinking that the curves will necessitate CNC. Any advice on how to approach this though would be welcome.
4. The design is a 'step' type to work with Tilton OTII 7.25" Ceremetallic twin plate. Iit would be easily adapted to other clutches and when I publish the drawings I will include the Solidworks files so others can do so.
5. Mass -my application is Rally Raid in a SWB Mercededs G Class. At the moment this design is at around 14Kgs; I don't know how to evaluate this, nor do I know whether a heavier or lighter flywheel would be better for my application. Again, any advice would be welcome!
![[Image: 13805752693_6e312bcd14_c.jpg]](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7433/13805752693_6e312bcd14_c.jpg)
![[Image: 13806071964_dc442a7c8d_c.jpg]](https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2818/13806071964_dc442a7c8d_c.jpg)
![[Image: 13805726825_d6072b97db.jpg]](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7162/13805726825_d6072b97db.jpg)
![[Image: 13805726665_3b2238a034.jpg]](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7108/13805726665_3b2238a034.jpg)
![[Image: 13806072004_120919cd4c_c.jpg]](https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2867/13806072004_120919cd4c_c.jpg)
![[Image: 13806571553_06de056bf8_o.png]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/13806571553_06de056bf8_o.png)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Hello all,
I have not posted here for a couple of months as I got sick in February with Sepsis. I spent quite a bit of time in hospital, but am pleased to say that I will make a good recovery, though its going to take a little bit of time; consequently this project has unfortunately been on hold for this time.
However in the last couple of weeks I have started work again and with the adapter plate pretty much complete I have switched focus to the flywheel - the first designs of which I am pleased to show here for comment and critique!
As before I will publish the designs once I have a working version. Also as before I must emphasize that I am not an engineer by trade, so you have to forgive any obvious mistakes that a professional would not have made.
In addition to this, I am not a physicist either, so beyond high-school maths and physics calculations to determine efficiency or performance are not something I can undertake, though I have provided a screenshot from solidworks showing the physical properties of the flywheel, so if anyone can contribute anything in this direction it would be great.
The design parameters/ constraints around the flywheel are as follows:
1. The additional spacing of the adapter plate + recessed design of the GS6 gearbox means the flywheel has to be much thicker (deeper) than a conventional design so I needed to come up with something that could accomodate this offset while remaining strong, but not too heavy.
2. The middle 'tower' that rises up with the 'spigot' (not sure that else to call it) is to accommodate the fact that the GS6 gearbox has the pilot bearing on the input drive shaft, not on the flywheel (as is conventional). If you look at some pictures of the gearbox on my Flickr account (also bigger versions of below) you'll see how this looks.
3. The flywheel will be machined from a single billet block of 4340/EN24 steel. I was planning to do this myself on a manual Gap bed (Harrison M300), but having done the design I'm thinking that the curves will necessitate CNC. Any advice on how to approach this though would be welcome.
4. The design is a 'step' type to work with Tilton OTII 7.25" Ceremetallic twin plate. Iit would be easily adapted to other clutches and when I publish the drawings I will include the Solidworks files so others can do so.
5. Mass -my application is Rally Raid in a SWB Mercededs G Class. At the moment this design is at around 14Kgs; I don't know how to evaluate this, nor do I know whether a heavier or lighter flywheel would be better for my application. Again, any advice would be welcome!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(04-12-2014, 04:29 PM)fcp 5. Mass -my application is Rally Raid in a SWB Mercededs G Class. At the moment this design is at around 14Kgs; I don't know how to evaluate this, nor do I know whether a heavier or lighter flywheel would be better for my application. Again, any advice would be welcome!
id guess that 14kg is quite a lot, but weight isnt the only thing that changes the behaviour of the flywheel, how the weight is distributed, and you seem to have quite a lot of that near the center, thereby not affecting as much as if it was far far out.
you know the, E=mc^2 crap, double the speed, quadrupple the mass, so if you have X kg 1dm out, or X kg 2dm out -> the mass will be four times bigger.
great work anyway, looks realy good!
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
04-13-2014, 04:16 AM #30(04-12-2014, 04:29 PM)fcp 5. Mass -my application is Rally Raid in a SWB Mercededs G Class. At the moment this design is at around 14Kgs; I don't know how to evaluate this, nor do I know whether a heavier or lighter flywheel would be better for my application. Again, any advice would be welcome!
id guess that 14kg is quite a lot, but weight isnt the only thing that changes the behaviour of the flywheel, how the weight is distributed, and you seem to have quite a lot of that near the center, thereby not affecting as much as if it was far far out.
you know the, E=mc^2 crap, double the speed, quadrupple the mass, so if you have X kg 1dm out, or X kg 2dm out -> the mass will be four times bigger.
great work anyway, looks realy good!
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
You make a good point about the position of the mass relative to the centre of rotation. I could probably take a stab at calculating the potential for stored energy if I made some simple assumptions about the flywheel (http://www.ehow.com/how_5942604_calculat...wheel.html) but I'm not sure this would get me much further as I don't have anything to benchmark it against.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
I'm going to weigh a sprinter flywheel that I have from when I was going to use a MB gearbox.
You make a good point about the position of the mass relative to the centre of rotation. I could probably take a stab at calculating the potential for stored energy if I made some simple assumptions about the flywheel (http://www.ehow.com/how_5942604_calculat...wheel.html) but I'm not sure this would get me much further as I don't have anything to benchmark it against.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
even if you have a heavy flywheel, the way the weight is distributed can make it behave just as a flywheel with half the weight, asuming i interpret your drawings correctly.
i dont know what a regular flywheel weights, just tried to remember how my singlemass om602 felt, and i would have guessed in hindsight around 15kg (was over 1year ago)
so 14kg with your layout would be a happy peppy engine..
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
04-13-2014, 05:29 AM #32exactly, thus just 14kg being far to little information to say how it will behave...
even if you have a heavy flywheel, the way the weight is distributed can make it behave just as a flywheel with half the weight, asuming i interpret your drawings correctly.
i dont know what a regular flywheel weights, just tried to remember how my singlemass om602 felt, and i would have guessed in hindsight around 15kg (was over 1year ago)
so 14kg with your layout would be a happy peppy engine..
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
The sprinter flywheel was 14Kg. In terms of mass distribution across the radius, I'd guestimate that my design isn't too far off. The question is should I try something significantly different?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
how do you want it to behave? and my om602 isnt exactly slow-reving with the stock flywheel, its just not as peppy as those that almost removed the flywheel mass totaly.
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
04-13-2014, 03:44 PM #34in a G-class i would leave it quite much to stock, i guess? more mass in the engine, less need to constantly manage the engine-rpm with the throttle...
how do you want it to behave? and my om602 isnt exactly slow-reving with the stock flywheel, its just not as peppy as those that almost removed the flywheel mass totaly.
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
A big lump of 4340 billet turned up; it was ordered at 130x310dia -total of 80Kgs.. much swearing was heard while mounting it into the 4 jaw chuck!
Its tough to machine too - outer 'skin' (hot rolled) took a long time even with carbide insert tooling (around 300fps surface speed) and a lot of cooling.
I hope to make more progress this weekend.
![[Image: 13933505659_b67dbdcde5_b.jpg]](https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2896/13933505659_b67dbdcde5_b.jpg)
![[Image: 13933505569_2e3e0aa237_b.jpg]](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/13933505569_2e3e0aa237_b.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Work started on turning the flywheel.
A big lump of 4340 billet turned up; it was ordered at 130x310dia -total of 80Kgs.. much swearing was heard while mounting it into the 4 jaw chuck!
Its tough to machine too - outer 'skin' (hot rolled) took a long time even with carbide insert tooling (around 300fps surface speed) and a lot of cooling.
I hope to make more progress this weekend.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(05-08-2014, 05:38 PM)fcp Work started on turning the flywheel.
...
A big lump of 4340 billet turned up; it was ordered at 130x310dia -total of 80Kgs
...
I hope to make more progress this weekend.
o yippeeeee. That looks a monster! oops, brb, popcorn's done 8-D
(05-08-2014, 05:38 PM)fcp much swearing was heard while mounting it into the 4 jaw chuck!
Hope everyone came through still able to ten count with their toes? Multiple inserts for the "outer skin" or still using original?
MBZ123
(05-08-2014, 05:38 PM)fcp Work started on turning the flywheel.
...
A big lump of 4340 billet turned up; it was ordered at 130x310dia -total of 80Kgs
...
I hope to make more progress this weekend.
o yippeeeee. That looks a monster! oops, brb, popcorn's done 8-D
(05-08-2014, 05:38 PM)fcp much swearing was heard while mounting it into the 4 jaw chuck!
Hope everyone came through still able to ten count with their toes? Multiple inserts for the "outer skin" or still using original?
MBZ123
GS6-53BZ
GS6-53DZ
I just aquired a "BZ" designated trans from an '08 BMW M5 with the 5L V10 (500hp) and would like to mate it to my 606. Its still in its crate so I haven't compared the bellhousing pattern to that of fcp's yet. Anyone know if they'll share the same pattern?
Also, it came with the dual mass flywheel. Should I use it on my on/offroad 400-500hp (planned) Jeep build?
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
Does anyone know what (if any) differences there are between:
GS6-53BZ
GS6-53DZ
I just aquired a "BZ" designated trans from an '08 BMW M5 with the 5L V10 (500hp) and would like to mate it to my 606. Its still in its crate so I haven't compared the bellhousing pattern to that of fcp's yet. Anyone know if they'll share the same pattern?
Also, it came with the dual mass flywheel. Should I use it on my on/offroad 400-500hp (planned) Jeep build?
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
(07-30-2014, 07:29 AM)winmutt Any more updates?
Hi Guys,
Sorry to have been quiet on this, but have been super busy with work over the past few weeks.
Work is to resume tomorrow machining the flywheel - I will post pics!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Video of runout on setup : https://flic.kr/p/oMd7iN (very happy with Harrison M300 lathe which is at the edge of its design envelope with 85Kgs billet and 12" 4-jaw)
Operation #1 after facing - spindle bearing 'spigot' and friction surface (to be ground final)
![[Image: 15025608125_ce137a385b_c.jpg]](https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5563/15025608125_ce137a385b_c.jpg)
Operation #2, 3 - Steps. Friction surface step cut @ 3.5mm (grind back to 2.54 for Tilton Clutch).
![[Image: 15036739392_45b13ddb15_c.jpg]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3868/15036739392_45b13ddb15_c.jpg)
It fits (phew!)
![[Image: 15014106756_5546fa4886_c.jpg]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3838/15014106756_5546fa4886_c.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
A bit of progress turning the new billet flywheel. More pics on my flickr account
Video of runout on setup : https://flic.kr/p/oMd7iN (very happy with Harrison M300 lathe which is at the edge of its design envelope with 85Kgs billet and 12" 4-jaw)
Operation #1 after facing - spindle bearing 'spigot' and friction surface (to be ground final)
Operation #2, 3 - Steps. Friction surface step cut @ 3.5mm (grind back to 2.54 for Tilton Clutch).
It fits (phew!)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
![[Image: 15139031101_398fc84cf5_c.jpg]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3863/15139031101_398fc84cf5_c.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Front of flywheel complete. Carbide insert tooling rocks.. until you get to centre of work where speed (to slow) makes life difficult (surface finish and chatter a problem). Solution was to switch to HSS and grind the tools.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
90% complete now, just rear channel to hog out, boss to face to length and holes to drill.
![[Image: 15016248627_742e908532_c.jpg]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/15016248627_742e908532_c.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Compound curves on a manual lathe - 140+ steps @ 0.5mm and an angle grinder + 60 grit flap disc to finish!
90% complete now, just rear channel to hog out, boss to face to length and holes to drill.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(09-10-2014, 06:05 PM)fcp Compound curves on a manual lathe - 140+ steps @ 0.5mm and an angle grinder + 60 grit flap disc to finish!
90% complete now, just rear channel to hog out, boss to face to length and holes to drill.
Im impressed! Nice work
Duncansport
09-11-2014, 08:25 AM #43(09-10-2014, 06:05 PM)fcp Compound curves on a manual lathe - 140+ steps @ 0.5mm and an angle grinder + 60 grit flap disc to finish!
90% complete now, just rear channel to hog out, boss to face to length and holes to drill.
Im impressed! Nice work
(09-10-2014, 06:05 PM)fcp Compound curves on a manual lathe - 140+ steps @ 0.5mm and an angle grinder + 60 grit flap disc to finish!
90% complete now, just rear channel to hog out, boss to face to length and holes to drill.
That is insane, you're really dedicated to this!
With a nice curve like that the flywheel should be crazy strong-no sharp 90* corners to snap off.
Can you throw up a DXF of the 606 pattern for fun?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
09-11-2014, 02:49 PM #44(09-10-2014, 06:05 PM)fcp Compound curves on a manual lathe - 140+ steps @ 0.5mm and an angle grinder + 60 grit flap disc to finish!
90% complete now, just rear channel to hog out, boss to face to length and holes to drill.
That is insane, you're really dedicated to this!
With a nice curve like that the flywheel should be crazy strong-no sharp 90* corners to snap off.
Can you throw up a DXF of the 606 pattern for fun?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
maxypriest
09-12-2014, 01:11 AM #45Fantastic
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
Now to drill holes, grind surface, chromate and balance.
Final weight was exactly 14kgs. Test fit to the transmission looks good too.
Pleased to get it done finally anyway, 30+ hrs of machining is enough!
![[Image: 15040618258_27d5836e69_c.jpg]](https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/15040618258_27d5836e69_c.jpg)
![[Image: 15224107381_a06bfaf66e_c.jpg]](https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5561/15224107381_a06bfaf66e_c.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Finished this PM
Now to drill holes, grind surface, chromate and balance.
Final weight was exactly 14kgs. Test fit to the transmission looks good too.
Pleased to get it done finally anyway, 30+ hrs of machining is enough!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
The nice flat rear surface is missing one thing... the recess to locate on the front of the crank boss.
And tonight.... disaster. I re-mounted the flywheel, got runout to <10 micrometers and then cut the recess diameter 1mm too big
(DRO set to radius not diameter calculation).If it had been any other dimension this wouldn't have mattered, but since this is what centers the flywheel it is totally critical...
Right now I'm not sure what to do. I'm away on vacation for 10 days from Thursday so I will have a think.
It would probably be possible to machine it bigger and then use an insert, but that's not ideal. There might be some cleareance issues with the bolts and it doesn't appeal to my obsessive 'must be right' gene.
I might just have to bite the bullet, accept the damage is done and order up a new piece of billet. There are a couple of things I'd do differently anyway so this might just have to go down to experience.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
So who spotted my obvious mistake?
The nice flat rear surface is missing one thing... the recess to locate on the front of the crank boss.
And tonight.... disaster. I re-mounted the flywheel, got runout to <10 micrometers and then cut the recess diameter 1mm too big (DRO set to radius not diameter calculation).
If it had been any other dimension this wouldn't have mattered, but since this is what centers the flywheel it is totally critical...
Right now I'm not sure what to do. I'm away on vacation for 10 days from Thursday so I will have a think.
It would probably be possible to machine it bigger and then use an insert, but that's not ideal. There might be some cleareance issues with the bolts and it doesn't appeal to my obsessive 'must be right' gene.
I might just have to bite the bullet, accept the damage is done and order up a new piece of billet. There are a couple of things I'd do differently anyway so this might just have to go down to experience.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
1) Tig weld back some material and then remachine it back. I have some concern that the EN24/ 4340 will harden and be difficult to machine though.
2) make up an adapter spacer. Machine the recess out some more (maybe about 5mm) then turn a ring to the right size.
What does anyone think?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
OK so I thought about it over night. Its fixable, question is whether to:
1) Tig weld back some material and then remachine it back. I have some concern that the EN24/ 4340 will harden and be difficult to machine though.
2) make up an adapter spacer. Machine the recess out some more (maybe about 5mm) then turn a ring to the right size.
What does anyone think?
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Another idea is to get some coiled shim stock. Ensure it naturally springs to the desired radius, then cut the stock with a bandsaw while it's wrapped around wood, acetal, whatever, just so it doesn't get torn up by the blade.
raysorenson
09-16-2014, 06:20 AM #49I recently had a chunk of metal machined off a flywheel. The guy chucked it in the center. Knurled the living hell out of it. It wouldn't go on the crank without filing off the high sides. I wouldn't be surprised if was knurled as high as .5mm.
Another idea is to get some coiled shim stock. Ensure it naturally springs to the desired radius, then cut the stock with a bandsaw while it's wrapped around wood, acetal, whatever, just so it doesn't get torn up by the blade.
With my limited metals knowledge and non-existent TIG experience, I see too many unknowns with the first approach
But that risk may be a non-issue if one enjoys purchasing pricey metal in bulk and volunteering at the occasional labor camp
MBZ123
What is your risk tolerance? I vote for option no. 2
With my limited metals knowledge and non-existent TIG experience, I see too many unknowns with the first approach
But that risk may be a non-issue if one enjoys purchasing pricey metal in bulk and volunteering at the occasional labor camp
MBZ123
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