to "M pump" or not
to "M pump" or not
06-06-2013, 04:26 AM
#1
I've been struggling with my MW pump for so long
so finally I have to give up as I have found very good
used M pump from euro w123 300d n/a. (88hp rated)
with pump I have also fuel lines and variator with shaft so
the oiling of the pump will be direct not external like MW.
no alda on this one and I will adopt VCV to new M pump
(some kind of bracket or so...)
what is the downside of using unmodified M pump
on 617 turbo engine? will I loose power?
thanks
ChO
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
hi guys
I've been struggling with my MW pump for so long
so finally I have to give up as I have found very good
used M pump from euro w123 300d n/a. (88hp rated)
with pump I have also fuel lines and variator with shaft so
the oiling of the pump will be direct not external like MW.
no alda on this one and I will adopt VCV to new M pump
(some kind of bracket or so...)
what is the downside of using unmodified M pump
on 617 turbo engine? will I loose power?
thanks
ChO
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
06-06-2013, 10:02 AM
#2
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-06-2013, 10:02 AM #2You will probably lose power. If you remove the aneroid (altitude capsule) form the top of the IP you may gain some back. Dieselmenken of course can get you more fuel than you would ever need
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
06-06-2013, 02:53 PM
#3
(06-06-2013, 04:26 AM)cho hi guys
I've been struggling with my MW pump for so long
so finally I have to give up as I have found very good
used M pump from euro w123 300d n/a. (88hp rated)
with pump I have also fuel lines and variator with shaft so
the oiling of the pump will be direct not external like MW.
no alda on this one and I will adopt VCV to new M pump
(some kind of bracket or so...)
what is the downside of using unmodified M pump
on 617 turbo engine? will I loose power?
thanks
ChO
Could you provide some details as to your struggles with the MW Pump?? Is it damaged and not working properly, or have you been unable to tune it as you like?
(06-06-2013, 04:26 AM)cho hi guys
I've been struggling with my MW pump for so long
so finally I have to give up as I have found very good
used M pump from euro w123 300d n/a. (88hp rated)
with pump I have also fuel lines and variator with shaft so
the oiling of the pump will be direct not external like MW.
no alda on this one and I will adopt VCV to new M pump
(some kind of bracket or so...)
what is the downside of using unmodified M pump
on 617 turbo engine? will I loose power?
thanks
ChO
Could you provide some details as to your struggles with the MW Pump?? Is it damaged and not working properly, or have you been unable to tune it as you like?
06-07-2013, 04:28 AM
#4
(06-06-2013, 02:53 PM)OM616 Could you provide some details as to your struggles with the MW Pump?? Is it damaged and not working properly, or have you been unable to tune it as you like?
in basics,no one here (at least not close) has knowledge to
do a proper calibration or rebuilt of the MW pump.
I'm sure of it as as have two rebuilt MW pumps in last 2 yrs
and no success with either. On the second one DV's are new
and 5.5 elements are replaced also... same thing
vibrations and slight loss of power on 1500 rpm,on 1600 rpm
power is back,uphill also..only thing bosch guys came up is the
possibility of bad regulator inside of the pump (whatever that is...)
the main observation is when car is warm (say 30min of ride...)
as for tuning I did not tune any,just a simple drip in the pump,
new rack bolt I performed,I have also 2 good alda's one unopened
and one I have opened and twist 1/2 ccw to see the results..I did change both of aldas on both pump but imho it has nothing to do
with problems mentioned above.
.... so I surrender.... good M pumps are plenty around here and no
good MW's nowhere in the sight.....
do I have to lower injector pressure to 115bar for M pump?
.
(06-06-2013, 10:02 AM)Simpler=Better You will probably lose power. If you remove the aneroid (altitude capsule) form the top of the IP you may gain some back. Dieselmenken of course can get you more fuel than you would ever need
I dont think I have altitude capsule at all on M pump.
(it is just a shut off valve in place where alda on mw'a are...)
Goran is of course option for times to come,but first
some serious turbo has to drop in my lap
.
This post was last modified: 06-07-2013, 04:33 AM by cho.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
(06-06-2013, 02:53 PM)OM616 Could you provide some details as to your struggles with the MW Pump?? Is it damaged and not working properly, or have you been unable to tune it as you like?
in basics,no one here (at least not close) has knowledge to
do a proper calibration or rebuilt of the MW pump.
I'm sure of it as as have two rebuilt MW pumps in last 2 yrs
and no success with either. On the second one DV's are new
and 5.5 elements are replaced also... same thing
vibrations and slight loss of power on 1500 rpm,on 1600 rpm
power is back,uphill also..only thing bosch guys came up is the
possibility of bad regulator inside of the pump (whatever that is...)
the main observation is when car is warm (say 30min of ride...)
as for tuning I did not tune any,just a simple drip in the pump,
new rack bolt I performed,I have also 2 good alda's one unopened
and one I have opened and twist 1/2 ccw to see the results..I did change both of aldas on both pump but imho it has nothing to do
with problems mentioned above.
.... so I surrender.... good M pumps are plenty around here and no
good MW's nowhere in the sight.....
do I have to lower injector pressure to 115bar for M pump?
.
(06-06-2013, 10:02 AM)Simpler=Better You will probably lose power. If you remove the aneroid (altitude capsule) form the top of the IP you may gain some back. Dieselmenken of course can get you more fuel than you would ever need
I dont think I have altitude capsule at all on M pump.
(it is just a shut off valve in place where alda on mw'a are...)
Goran is of course option for times to come,but first
some serious turbo has to drop in my lap
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
06-09-2013, 06:51 AM
#6
(06-08-2013, 01:19 PM)OM616 Is this an automatic trans car??
yes it is...( I have 5 spd manual complete set for it however,...
).
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
06-10-2013, 01:51 PM
#7
(06-09-2013, 06:51 AM)cho(06-08-2013, 01:19 PM)OM616 Is this an automatic trans car??
yes it is...( I have 5 spd manual complete set for it however,...
.
That is why I asked, more than one of these cars have been converted...
Before you go and start changing pumps, perhaps you could indulge me in some Q&A....
First, the regulator the Bosch teck was talking about is probably the Accumulator valve vacuum controller, it plays a critical role in the proper operation of the transmission.
Do you know how many inches of Mercury your vacuum system is pulling at idle?
Do you know what the boost reading is at the ALDA?
Do you know if the Bowden (throttle pressure) cable is adjusted properly?
Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
(06-09-2013, 06:51 AM)cho(06-08-2013, 01:19 PM)OM616 Is this an automatic trans car??
yes it is...( I have 5 spd manual complete set for it however,...
.
That is why I asked, more than one of these cars have been converted...
Before you go and start changing pumps, perhaps you could indulge me in some Q&A....
First, the regulator the Bosch teck was talking about is probably the Accumulator valve vacuum controller, it plays a critical role in the proper operation of the transmission.
Do you know how many inches of Mercury your vacuum system is pulling at idle?
Do you know what the boost reading is at the ALDA?
Do you know if the Bowden (throttle pressure) cable is adjusted properly?
Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
06-11-2013, 02:27 AM
#8
(06-10-2013, 01:51 PM)OM616(06-09-2013, 06:51 AM)cho(06-08-2013, 01:19 PM)OM616 Is this an automatic trans car??
yes it is...( I have 5 spd manual complete set for it however,...
.
That is why I asked, more than one of these cars have been converted...
Before you go and start changing pumps, perhaps you could indulge me in some Q&A....
First, the regulator the Bosch teck was talking about is probably the Accumulator valve vacuum controller, it plays a critical role in the proper operation of the transmission.
Do you know how many inches of Mercury your vacuum system is pulling at idle?
Do you know what the boost reading is at the ALDA?
Do you know if the Bowden (throttle pressure) cable is adjusted properly?
Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
616,thanks for input..
I spoke with Bosch guys and they are sure talking about some inside component of the pump not a VCV.
VCV was checked and the vacuum is ok, adjusted to release at 5mm
before end of travel. Bowden is also ok,minor changes are observed easily as I play with it,i.e faster or slower shifting.
I did the "plug the vacuum" test and tranny bangs into every gear,with
VCV on,it shifts smooth. Modulator also holds vacuum ok and not been
touched,no need for now...
the only thing I m not sure about you asked above is boost,and will
have to deal with that one also soon,I have a 5 bar gauge to hack in
but have to make some adapters....
ty
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
(06-10-2013, 01:51 PM)OM616(06-09-2013, 06:51 AM)cho(06-08-2013, 01:19 PM)OM616 Is this an automatic trans car??
yes it is...( I have 5 spd manual complete set for it however,...
.
That is why I asked, more than one of these cars have been converted...
Before you go and start changing pumps, perhaps you could indulge me in some Q&A....
First, the regulator the Bosch teck was talking about is probably the Accumulator valve vacuum controller, it plays a critical role in the proper operation of the transmission.
Do you know how many inches of Mercury your vacuum system is pulling at idle?
Do you know what the boost reading is at the ALDA?
Do you know if the Bowden (throttle pressure) cable is adjusted properly?
Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
616,thanks for input..
I spoke with Bosch guys and they are sure talking about some inside component of the pump not a VCV.
VCV was checked and the vacuum is ok, adjusted to release at 5mm
before end of travel. Bowden is also ok,minor changes are observed easily as I play with it,i.e faster or slower shifting.
I did the "plug the vacuum" test and tranny bangs into every gear,with
VCV on,it shifts smooth. Modulator also holds vacuum ok and not been
touched,no need for now...
the only thing I m not sure about you asked above is boost,and will
have to deal with that one also soon,I have a 5 bar gauge to hack in
but have to make some adapters....
ty
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
Alastair E
06-11-2013, 06:55 AM #9Could be a fuel lift-pump/fuel pressure/fuel restriction issue....
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
06-11-2013, 08:01 AM
#10
(06-11-2013, 06:55 AM)Alastair E Could be a fuel lift-pump/fuel pressure/fuel restriction issue....
nope,I have old and new style lift pump (brand new)
none of them leaks or any sign of air in lines...
2 OF valves ,1 old style stretched to 26mm, 1 new style
hardly used....
tested fuel amount on return hose... everything ok
3mm and 8mm hoses are changed every 2-3 months just for fun...
new tank cap...old one also goood
so yes I agree, this could be a fuel issue but I dont think
that is the case here...
.
(06-10-2013, 01:51 PM)OM616 Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
I dont shift manually...what I can do as a test?
.
This post was last modified: 06-11-2013, 08:22 AM by cho.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
(06-11-2013, 06:55 AM)Alastair E Could be a fuel lift-pump/fuel pressure/fuel restriction issue....
nope,I have old and new style lift pump (brand new)
none of them leaks or any sign of air in lines...
2 OF valves ,1 old style stretched to 26mm, 1 new style
hardly used....
tested fuel amount on return hose... everything ok
3mm and 8mm hoses are changed every 2-3 months just for fun...
new tank cap...old one also goood
so yes I agree, this could be a fuel issue but I dont think
that is the case here...
.
(06-10-2013, 01:51 PM)OM616 Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
I dont shift manually...what I can do as a test?
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
06-12-2013, 09:43 AM
#11
Ive known some new (Old and new type) lift-pumps be faulty out the box!....
Alastair E
06-12-2013, 09:43 AM #11Have you actually Checked the Pressure At The Inlet to the Pump Gallery, or at the Outlet to Return?
Ive known some new (Old and new type) lift-pumps be faulty out the box!....
06-12-2013, 12:47 PM
#12
(06-12-2013, 09:43 AM)Alastair E Have you actually Checked the Pressure At The Inlet to the Pump Gallery, or at the Outlet to Return?
Ive known some new (Old and new type) lift-pumps be faulty out the box!....
with proper instrument no
but I did it with disconnected return hose filling 5 L bucket in 2-3 minutes
on 1000rpm...I guess it is a good flow....
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
(06-12-2013, 09:43 AM)Alastair E Have you actually Checked the Pressure At The Inlet to the Pump Gallery, or at the Outlet to Return?
Ive known some new (Old and new type) lift-pumps be faulty out the box!....
with proper instrument no
but I did it with disconnected return hose filling 5 L bucket in 2-3 minutes
on 1000rpm...I guess it is a good flow....
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
06-13-2013, 11:16 AM
#13
(06-11-2013, 08:01 AM)cho(06-10-2013, 01:51 PM)OM616 Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
I dont shift manually...what I can do as a test?
.
If you have had a couple of different pumps on this car, I am thinking the problem is not the pump.
What I meant by shifting it manually is to put the shifter in the 1st gear position and accelerate as you would normally do to say 2500 or 3000 RPM , does the power issue still present its self? Then try flooring it from a dead stop, how about now?
Then move the shifter into the 2nd gear position, after the trans shifts into 2nd, slow down until you are at the problem RPM area and try to increase the speed, first conservatively, then do it again by flooring it, do you notice any thing different.
The goal of this exercise it to be able to operate the car in the trouble area, in different conditions, in the most controlled way possible, as to be able to repeat the test later.
If the power issue is the same regardless of how the car is shifted, then I would say the trans is not the issue, (not early shifting, or dragging an gear after a down shift).
1500 RPM is too low to be building boost generally speaking with a stock pump and conservative operation. If the Idle governor was really set to the strong side, it is possible that it could have some affect as you describe, but the return to idle would be wicked fast, like you shut the engine off..
It would be a shame to go through all the cost and time to change to a M pump only to have the same problem, or mask the problem at hand.
EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
This post was last modified: 06-13-2013, 02:31 PM by OM616.
(06-11-2013, 08:01 AM)cho(06-10-2013, 01:51 PM)OM616 Does the car still behave as you describe if manually shifted?
I dont shift manually...what I can do as a test?
.
If you have had a couple of different pumps on this car, I am thinking the problem is not the pump.
What I meant by shifting it manually is to put the shifter in the 1st gear position and accelerate as you would normally do to say 2500 or 3000 RPM , does the power issue still present its self? Then try flooring it from a dead stop, how about now?
Then move the shifter into the 2nd gear position, after the trans shifts into 2nd, slow down until you are at the problem RPM area and try to increase the speed, first conservatively, then do it again by flooring it, do you notice any thing different.
The goal of this exercise it to be able to operate the car in the trouble area, in different conditions, in the most controlled way possible, as to be able to repeat the test later.
If the power issue is the same regardless of how the car is shifted, then I would say the trans is not the issue, (not early shifting, or dragging an gear after a down shift).
1500 RPM is too low to be building boost generally speaking with a stock pump and conservative operation. If the Idle governor was really set to the strong side, it is possible that it could have some affect as you describe, but the return to idle would be wicked fast, like you shut the engine off..
It would be a shame to go through all the cost and time to change to a M pump only to have the same problem, or mask the problem at hand.
EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
06-14-2013, 02:20 AM
#14
(06-13-2013, 11:16 AM)OM616 EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
616 thanks for trans procedure I will try it during the weekend..
EGR is removed/lines blocked 1.5 yr ago,intake has been cleaned before
banjo bolt to ALDA also....
EDIT: ok,tested and no power gap while on manual,with auto I have some minor flare,manual I have none.
better pedal response too.
.
This post was last modified: 06-17-2013, 07:03 AM by cho.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
(06-13-2013, 11:16 AM)OM616 EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
616 thanks for trans procedure I will try it during the weekend..
EGR is removed/lines blocked 1.5 yr ago,intake has been cleaned before
banjo bolt to ALDA also....
EDIT: ok,tested and no power gap while on manual,with auto I have some minor flare,manual I have none.
better pedal response too.
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
06-21-2013, 05:57 PM
#15
(06-14-2013, 02:20 AM)cho(06-13-2013, 11:16 AM)OM616 EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
616 thanks for trans procedure I will try it during the weekend..
EGR is removed/lines blocked 1.5 yr ago,intake has been cleaned before
banjo bolt to ALDA also....
EDIT: ok,tested and no power gap while on manual,with auto I have some minor flare,manual I have none.
better pedal response too.
.
Sorry, missed your post..
If the car runs properly when you shift it manually then you have a trans problem of some sort. Either it is not down shifting properly, is up shifting too soon, or is dragging a gear (not totally disengaging one of the clutch packs).
At least you are making some progress. If it was the pump, it would have the power loss regardless of manual or automatic shifting. That was the reason for the test.
(06-14-2013, 02:20 AM)cho(06-13-2013, 11:16 AM)OM616 EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
616 thanks for trans procedure I will try it during the weekend..
EGR is removed/lines blocked 1.5 yr ago,intake has been cleaned before
banjo bolt to ALDA also....
EDIT: ok,tested and no power gap while on manual,with auto I have some minor flare,manual I have none.
better pedal response too.
.
Sorry, missed your post..
If the car runs properly when you shift it manually then you have a trans problem of some sort. Either it is not down shifting properly, is up shifting too soon, or is dragging a gear (not totally disengaging one of the clutch packs).
At least you are making some progress. If it was the pump, it would have the power loss regardless of manual or automatic shifting. That was the reason for the test.
06-24-2013, 02:27 AM
#16
(06-21-2013, 05:57 PM)OM616(06-14-2013, 02:20 AM)cho(06-13-2013, 11:16 AM)OM616 EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
616 thanks for trans procedure I will try it during the weekend..
EGR is removed/lines blocked 1.5 yr ago,intake has been cleaned before
banjo bolt to ALDA also....
EDIT: ok,tested and no power gap while on manual,with auto I have some minor flare,manual I have none.
better pedal response too.
.
Sorry, missed your post..
If the car runs properly when you shift it manually then you have a trans problem of some sort. Either it is not down shifting properly, is up shifting too soon, or is dragging a gear (not totally disengaging one of the clutch packs).
At least you are making some progress. If it was the pump, it would have the power loss regardless of manual or automatic shifting. That was the reason for the test.
thanks 616,
this one can be one step toward solving this annoying issue...
I'm on the brink of decision going to 5spd manual soon
cheers
ChO
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
(06-21-2013, 05:57 PM)OM616(06-14-2013, 02:20 AM)cho(06-13-2013, 11:16 AM)OM616 EDIT: Just had a thought.... Is the EGR system still on the engine?
616 thanks for trans procedure I will try it during the weekend..
EGR is removed/lines blocked 1.5 yr ago,intake has been cleaned before
banjo bolt to ALDA also....
EDIT: ok,tested and no power gap while on manual,with auto I have some minor flare,manual I have none.
better pedal response too.
.
Sorry, missed your post..
If the car runs properly when you shift it manually then you have a trans problem of some sort. Either it is not down shifting properly, is up shifting too soon, or is dragging a gear (not totally disengaging one of the clutch packs).
At least you are making some progress. If it was the pump, it would have the power loss regardless of manual or automatic shifting. That was the reason for the test.
thanks 616,
this one can be one step toward solving this annoying issue...
I'm on the brink of decision going to 5spd manual soon
cheers
ChO
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
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