roof strength & reinforcement after sunroof delete
roof strength & reinforcement after sunroof delete
now, i'm looking into cutting out this leftover frame, which i can still hit my head on. at the front it has just two spot welds which couldn't provide any structural strength, but on the sides there are a few inches of welded connection to the chassis. is this part present in non-sunroof W123s? any reason i can't cut it out and have some kind of rib welded in a less intrusive place all the way across the ceiling? would that even be warranted for street use unless i could detect the roof getting torqued?
if i could remove this little frame, it would reveal that dark gap or channel all the way around the car, and that could be a fantastic place to hide new lighting.
![[Image: insideroof.jpg]](http://www.lithic.org/tmp/insideroof.jpg)
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
i deleted my sunroof with a plain panel and 3M epoxy (400 square inches of contact area!). the chassis roof is intact up to the sunroof opening. the epoxy isn't supposed to be used in any structural application, so i'm relying on the stiffness of the original roof with an opening in it. i left the flanged/stamped edge in place FWIW.
now, i'm looking into cutting out this leftover frame, which i can still hit my head on. at the front it has just two spot welds which couldn't provide any structural strength, but on the sides there are a few inches of welded connection to the chassis. is this part present in non-sunroof W123s? any reason i can't cut it out and have some kind of rib welded in a less intrusive place all the way across the ceiling? would that even be warranted for street use unless i could detect the roof getting torqued?
if i could remove this little frame, it would reveal that dark gap or channel all the way around the car, and that could be a fantastic place to hide new lighting.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
Without those braces the roof may flex and resonate, but you'll have to cut those out to find out.
To test for torque get some modeling clay or something similar that will harden to be brittle when cured. Put it between two pieces that you think may be flexing and let it cure. Once it's dried, take some corners hard. If it cracks or deforms then you know that it's flexing.
Play doh may also work to tell you what moves.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-01-2013, 08:45 PM #2I would just cut it and then brace as you can. There are guys running around with redneck convertibles (read: they sawed off the roof).
Without those braces the roof may flex and resonate, but you'll have to cut those out to find out.
To test for torque get some modeling clay or something similar that will harden to be brittle when cured. Put it between two pieces that you think may be flexing and let it cure. Once it's dried, take some corners hard. If it cracks or deforms then you know that it's flexing.
Play doh may also work to tell you what moves.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
take the risk eh? great idea on the modeling clay, thanks, S=B.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-02-2013, 01:12 PM #4My truck flexes A LOT from the factory. Cheapo cab-on-frame, there is seriously at least 1" deflection in the frame when going through a ditch. It's fine, there's no rust and it's structurally sound. A little flex can be acceptable.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
http://image.4wheeloffroad.com/f/1172439..._frame.jpg
All that said. I think the hole in the sunroof is really not much of trouble presuming the rear half of that 300d over the back seat is still fully intact. That 1980s german steel car is nice and strong.
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
This flex idea is great. Until flex immediately turns to crimp and bend, haha. Semi trailers are intended to bend. And the ideal of steal bending is some of its great value. Conversely, this all reminds me of a time I seen an old ford straight truck loaded with logs looking something like this after trying to drive down a curved grade.
http://image.4wheeloffroad.com/f/1172439..._frame.jpg
All that said. I think the hole in the sunroof is really not much of trouble presuming the rear half of that 300d over the back seat is still fully intact. That 1980s german steel car is nice and strong.
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
I say just go for it and remove the frame.
I would however, try to glue in a couple of cross braces after you remove it.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
10-02-2013, 02:01 PM #6Checking the flex with modeling clay is a great idea.
I say just go for it and remove the frame.
I would however, try to glue in a couple of cross braces after you remove it.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
(10-02-2013, 01:40 PM)larsalan This flex idea is great. Until flex immediately turns to crimp and bend, haha. Semi trailers are intended to bend. And the ideal of steal bending is some of its great value. Conversely, this all reminds me of a time I seen an old ford straight truck loaded with logs looking something like this after trying to drive down a curved grade.
http://image.4wheeloffroad.com/f/1172439..._frame.jpg
All that said. I think the hole in the sunroof is really not much of trouble presuming the rear half of that 300d over the back seat is still fully intact. That 1980s german steel car is nice and strong.
How did you get a picture of my truck?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-02-2013, 02:10 PM #7(10-02-2013, 01:40 PM)larsalan This flex idea is great. Until flex immediately turns to crimp and bend, haha. Semi trailers are intended to bend. And the ideal of steal bending is some of its great value. Conversely, this all reminds me of a time I seen an old ford straight truck loaded with logs looking something like this after trying to drive down a curved grade.
http://image.4wheeloffroad.com/f/1172439..._frame.jpg
All that said. I think the hole in the sunroof is really not much of trouble presuming the rear half of that 300d over the back seat is still fully intact. That 1980s german steel car is nice and strong.
How did you get a picture of my truck?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
To relate that to the benz, that haul may have been 2x 300d worth of wood or better
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
haha, that is a google image. I felt bad for the guys I seen back in the day with the bent ford. It was some big block ford 350 dually if I remember. I'm all for hauling huge loads with just enough machine but they got f*cked when they hit the bottom of the ramp. All they were doing was hauling logs to a firewood dump site.
To relate that to the benz, that haul may have been 2x 300d worth of wood or better
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
raysorenson
10-03-2013, 10:17 AM #9Some entire roof skins are held on by nothing but epoxy. Unless you used a very poorly chosen epoxy, you've already added structural strength. I say cut it off and don't worry about it.
PS, ray, as far as i know, it was the right epoxy, and an entire pair of tubes' worth. now i have to decide what to do with the special application gun. anyone else looking at this project?
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
i will cut it out and report. anyone got a stash of modeling clay?
PS, ray, as far as i know, it was the right epoxy, and an entire pair of tubes' worth. now i have to decide what to do with the special application gun. anyone else looking at this project?
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
10-08-2013, 01:43 AM #11I saw w123 at the yard without a sun roof. Took some pics of the interior. No cross braces, just outer skin sheetmetal.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
thank you richard!! that's a trip. mine will look like that soon.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
anyway, i am two sessions deep with the angle grinder. i have had to cut the pan out all the way around its perimeter, not just at those welded attachments on the side. it's a very difficult job to work upwards with a dangerous, noisy power tool. i am fogging up my safety glasses every thirty seconds or so. it would be much easier if the seats were not in the car!! i will have to do a lot of cleanup afterwards.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
winmutt, i am not even 6'1" but all my height is in my torso. that means i have to slide the seat all the way forward, which raises it!! the geometry is hella wrong for me.
anyway, i am two sessions deep with the angle grinder. i have had to cut the pan out all the way around its perimeter, not just at those welded attachments on the side. it's a very difficult job to work upwards with a dangerous, noisy power tool. i am fogging up my safety glasses every thirty seconds or so. it would be much easier if the seats were not in the car!! i will have to do a lot of cleanup afterwards.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
10-09-2013, 03:12 PM #15There should be two seat rails one that slides forward flat and one that slides forward at an angle!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
yes. the LOWERING one brings the seat BACKWARD and the ADVANCING one brings the seat UPWARD. a perfect combination of don't-fit-no-bricktrons-in-this-car. these side effects of the adjustments are brutal for me, but i guess people of other shapes don't perceive them.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
(10-09-2013, 11:55 PM)bricktron yes. the LOWERING one brings the seat BACKWARD and the ADVANCING one brings the seat UPWARD. a perfect combination of don't-fit-no-bricktrons-in-this-car. these side effects of the adjustments are brutal for me, but i guess people of other shapes don't perceive them.
I hear ya. I'm 6'2", all torso. I have to gansta lean every car I drive to have enough headroom (including my truck)
I rented a Cruz on a business trip. Holy contorionist batman!
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-10-2013, 05:42 AM #18(10-09-2013, 11:55 PM)bricktron yes. the LOWERING one brings the seat BACKWARD and the ADVANCING one brings the seat UPWARD. a perfect combination of don't-fit-no-bricktrons-in-this-car. these side effects of the adjustments are brutal for me, but i guess people of other shapes don't perceive them.
I hear ya. I'm 6'2", all torso. I have to gansta lean every car I drive to have enough headroom (including my truck)
I rented a Cruz on a business trip. Holy contorionist batman!
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
today i had to do most of the work with the sawzall. destroyed a couple of blades by bending them. i even broke open one of the epoxy sections on the inside trying to pry the stamped steel apart for cutting. this is slow going.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
^5 to S=B. i used to live in balto, btw.
today i had to do most of the work with the sawzall. destroyed a couple of blades by bending them. i even broke open one of the epoxy sections on the inside trying to pry the stamped steel apart for cutting. this is slow going.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
![[Image: SAM_2010.JPG]](http://www.lithic.org/tmp/SAM_2010.JPG)
finally think i finished. how can i clamp those loose edges upwards to reglue the parts i delaminated while prying?
![[Image: SAM_2014.JPG]](http://www.lithic.org/tmp/SAM_2014.JPG)
do not do this with upholstery in the car or you will end up having to try to clean it all with a magnet:
![[Image: SAM_2016.JPG]](http://www.lithic.org/tmp/SAM_2016.JPG)
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
this was extremely difficult and messy. i had to use the angle grinder, sawzall, wire brush drill bit, vice grips, etc.
finally think i finished. how can i clamp those loose edges upwards to reglue the parts i delaminated while prying?
do not do this with upholstery in the car or you will end up having to try to clean it all with a magnet:
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-15-2013, 08:21 PM #21An air hammer will bend that back where you need it. It looks great, I can't wait to see where you take it.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
I think you need to get an air hammer with a flat end attachment to flatten those bits, but you need to get a buddy outside the vehicle with a big piece of steel to work on the other side of the air hammer for it to hit against without distorting the whole roof, kinda the way you install a buck rivet as an example
Wouldn't do to make a bunch of dents in the roof after all this work.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
man this is some major work you have been doing. I probably would have gone for some kind of seat change, but I like what the roof looks like after removing all that. I have roof plans down the line that you have benefited with these pics.
I think you need to get an air hammer with a flat end attachment to flatten those bits, but you need to get a buddy outside the vehicle with a big piece of steel to work on the other side of the air hammer for it to hit against without distorting the whole roof, kinda the way you install a buck rivet as an example
Wouldn't do to make a bunch of dents in the roof after all this work.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
10-17-2013, 08:58 AM #23Looking good with the head room Aaron. x2 with the air hammer, probably the best tool out there.... Unless you find a gigantic "c" clamp to smush it in place!
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
now that i think about it though, maybe it would be possible to reverse or to offset the whole adjustment mechanism beneath the driver's seat so that its travel had different characteristics. maybe if the rails were slightly removed one way or the other there could be some more height saved.
i will look for the air hammer. dejankification continues. thanks folks for the support!
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
JB3, as i recall, i saw how the passenger seat could be permanently modified to sit lower, the gain would have been about an inch. true, it would have been a lot less work than what i did. i needed to address one specific thing, which was the 90 degree edge of the sunroof frame above my head. now, i can _still_ hit my head on the ceiling, but thank god, on a flat part.
now that i think about it though, maybe it would be possible to reverse or to offset the whole adjustment mechanism beneath the driver's seat so that its travel had different characteristics. maybe if the rails were slightly removed one way or the other there could be some more height saved.
i will look for the air hammer. dejankification continues. thanks folks for the support!
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
i have not had any flex or resonance problems in the roof. still need to finish the interior, but it does seem that extra strength isn't needed... for my driving style anyway.
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
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