616 Turbo Short-Block build
616 Turbo Short-Block build
(10-21-2013, 03:22 PM)Simpler=Better So you really can't get custom pistons for less? I would have sworn guys were getting $100 pistons for turbo fords
The 617a pistons are unique in that they have the oil passages in dome of the piston, where as normal "Turbo" pistons do not.
A traditional "Turbo" piston, just means that it most likely is dished for lower compression, and is forged, same goes for blower motor pistons. The MB pistons are the only ones that I have seen with oil galleries cast into the dome, hence the extreme cost for them.
(10-21-2013, 03:22 PM)Simpler=Better So you really can't get custom pistons for less? I would have sworn guys were getting $100 pistons for turbo fords
The 617a pistons are unique in that they have the oil passages in dome of the piston, where as normal "Turbo" pistons do not.
A traditional "Turbo" piston, just means that it most likely is dished for lower compression, and is forged, same goes for blower motor pistons. The MB pistons are the only ones that I have seen with oil galleries cast into the dome, hence the extreme cost for them.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I'm pretty sure turbo pistons arent dished, next time I am home I'll snap a picture or two of a turbo piston and rod
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(10-22-2013, 04:57 PM)MFSuper90 I'm pretty sure turbo pistons arent dished, next time I am home I'll snap a picture or two of a turbo piston and rod
I should have clarified that to turbo pistons like the custom Ford ones mentioned for Gas engines. With a lower compression ratio you can run more boost, (detonation is bad in a gas engine),so it is normal for Turbo and Blower pistons to be dished for a lower compression ratio (7.5 or 8 to 1 for example).
The MB 617a pistons are not lower compression pistons, they just have larger wrist pins and an oil passage casted into the dome for the cooling oil to circulate through.
(10-22-2013, 04:57 PM)MFSuper90 I'm pretty sure turbo pistons arent dished, next time I am home I'll snap a picture or two of a turbo piston and rod
I should have clarified that to turbo pistons like the custom Ford ones mentioned for Gas engines. With a lower compression ratio you can run more boost, (detonation is bad in a gas engine),so it is normal for Turbo and Blower pistons to be dished for a lower compression ratio (7.5 or 8 to 1 for example).
The MB 617a pistons are not lower compression pistons, they just have larger wrist pins and an oil passage casted into the dome for the cooling oil to circulate through.
I can get pics of the piston and rod tomorrow when I'm at the shop. Can also measure the rod length if you need that.
decent view of squirter and piston in #2 and #3 cyl
![[Image: 2nta3a0.jpg]](http://i43.tinypic.com/2nta3a0.jpg)
#1 piston squirter already removed
![[Image: 24vr69h.jpg]](http://i41.tinypic.com/24vr69h.jpg)
#2 view of exit hole in piston
![[Image: 2411krs.jpg]](http://i40.tinypic.com/2411krs.jpg)
#1 and 2, 1 squirter removed
![[Image: riclsn.jpg]](http://i44.tinypic.com/riclsn.jpg)
If you still need pics, these are the best I have right now. Took them when I was tearing down a 617a I plan to put in my 240d. But as it turns out #1 piston was melted above the top ring. So my hunt for a decent used piston continues...
I can get pics of the piston and rod tomorrow when I'm at the shop. Can also measure the rod length if you need that.
decent view of squirter and piston in #2 and #3 cyl
#1 piston squirter already removed
#2 view of exit hole in piston
#1 and 2, 1 squirter removed
Looking at them gives me some worry that the 616 block doesn’t have the area that the 617a does where the squirter nozzles are. And the nozzles do not look like they would be use full with a 616 piston because they are aimed so close to the skirt, I would want them to be aimed at the dome as much as possible...
Now I could make some nozzles... But still concerned that the 616 casting is not adequate...
Nice pics.. Thanks!!
Looking at them gives me some worry that the 616 block doesn’t have the area that the 617a does where the squirter nozzles are. And the nozzles do not look like they would be use full with a 616 piston because they are aimed so close to the skirt, I would want them to be aimed at the dome as much as possible...
Now I could make some nozzles... But still concerned that the 616 casting is not adequate...
The squirter hole is indeed right next to the skirt. Not optimal but I assume the duct through the piston corrects that?
Rod lengths are the same between the motors and I assume compression height is on pistons is too. Seems like If you COULD get the squirters in the 616, 617a rods/pistons would be the way to go. But personaly I've had a hell of a time just finding one usable piston. Lemme know if you find the motherload somewhere LOL
Yes, there is an extra boss cast there for the squirters. The outer 2 holes are only lineup dowels though. Might be able to machine off part of that. In the last pic the squirter is on the ground, blurry but might help.
The squirter hole is indeed right next to the skirt. Not optimal but I assume the duct through the piston corrects that?
Rod lengths are the same between the motors and I assume compression height is on pistons is too. Seems like If you COULD get the squirters in the 616, 617a rods/pistons would be the way to go. But personaly I've had a hell of a time just finding one usable piston. Lemme know if you find the motherload somewhere LOL
As much as I would like to put the piston squirters in the 616, I am loosing faith that it can be done.. I am going to see if there is a oil system graphic in the manual that shows a line to tap into.
I found this pic while looking in the for sale section.. I do not remember who originally posted it, but thanks!! I hope they do not mind me copying it...
As much as I would like to put the piston squirters in the 616, I am loosing faith that it can be done.. I am going to see if there is a oil system graphic in the manual that shows a line to tap into.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
10-30-2013, 01:26 PM #58Ive read the the block should be the same for turbo or non turbo 4 or 5 cylinders the 4 cylinder block just needs to be machined out for the squirters
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
![[Image: p0427.jpg]](http://www.nic.fi/~danes/w638_2/jutut/pic/p0427.jpg)
![[Image: p0449.jpg]](http://www.nic.fi/~danes/w638_2/jutut/pic/p0449.jpg)
![[Image: p0450.jpg]](http://www.nic.fi/~danes/w638_2/jutut/pic/p0450.jpg)
![[Image: p0451.jpg]](http://www.nic.fi/~danes/w638_2/jutut/pic/p0451.jpg)
Here's some pic's on a 4 cyl (no turbo available) pistons squirter mod. Not my pic's. Don't know how I got them... The last pic shows an arrow where a oil line runs I think... The rest are just drilled and tapped.
It's remarkable that a engine with no turbo available has this I think... But then again it isn't because a turbo is just a 4 cyl extended.
Here's some pic's on a 4 cyl (no turbo available) pistons squirter mod. Not my pic's. Don't know how I got them... The last pic shows an arrow where a oil line runs I think... The rest are just drilled and tapped.
It's remarkable that a engine with no turbo available has this I think... But then again it isn't because a turbo is just a 4 cyl extended.
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
10-30-2013, 07:53 PM #60TITO DA' MAN!!!!!!!!!
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
10-31-2013, 09:20 AM #62Oh well regardless, you managed to dig up the pictures
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
Given that it is the oil supply for the mains, I definitely would want to use the MB nozzles because they have pop off valves so bellow 20PSI I believe it is, they shut off.
I would want to machine a flat area in the block, and then make a spacer block to recover any height difference so they are installed exactly as the 617a.
However I definitely would not want to just start carving on a good block lol... I would want to cut a block in half to see how much material there is to work with and mock one up first.
I am not totally apposed to making custom nozzles, but that is just more time that I have so little of... Hell I still have a pump calibration machine to finish!! Lol
Thanks for the pics!!!
Given that it is the oil supply for the mains, I definitely would want to use the MB nozzles because they have pop off valves so bellow 20PSI I believe it is, they shut off.
I would want to machine a flat area in the block, and then make a spacer block to recover any height difference so they are installed exactly as the 617a.
However I definitely would not want to just start carving on a good block lol... I would want to cut a block in half to see how much material there is to work with and mock one up first.
I am not totally apposed to making custom nozzles, but that is just more time that I have so little of... Hell I still have a pump calibration machine to finish!! Lol
Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-01-2014, 12:04 PM #66The squirters cool the piston.
Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(10-01-2014, 12:04 PM)Simpler=Better The squirters cool the piston.
Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
Are the oil squirters from a 617 the same as those from 603?
(10-01-2014, 12:04 PM)Simpler=Better The squirters cool the piston.
Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
5 of these badboys available, a 617 block with 1 scored liner, 4 looking ok liners, and a crank that appears to be okay-although one of the main caps has a 615 part number?!?
If you need more pics/dimensions I can get them for you
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-02-2014, 09:11 AM #68
5 of these badboys available, a 617 block with 1 scored liner, 4 looking ok liners, and a crank that appears to be okay-although one of the main caps has a 615 part number?!?
If you need more pics/dimensions I can get them for you
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
I am planning on picking up a 617a engine in state to rob the pistons, rods, squirters, and use the block as a template.
The 616 block I have is still in the truck, but looking at your pics, I am questioning, 1 if there is enough room for the 617a squiter between the cylinder and the oil supply in the block which is humped up, and 2 the oil inlet to the squirter is not in a good place given where the 616 supply is in the block.
I definitely want to have the 20psi check balls in the squirters so I was hopeing that I could use the 617a ones, but I may have to make custom ones, which does not really excite me in the least.
Simpler=Better, many thanks for the great close ups!!
I am planning on picking up a 617a engine in state to rob the pistons, rods, squirters, and use the block as a template.
The 616 block I have is still in the truck, but looking at your pics, I am questioning, 1 if there is enough room for the 617a squiter between the cylinder and the oil supply in the block which is humped up, and 2 the oil inlet to the squirter is not in a good place given where the 616 supply is in the block.
I definitely want to have the 20psi check balls in the squirters so I was hopeing that I could use the 617a ones, but I may have to make custom ones, which does not really excite me in the least.
The #1 rod is completely gone as is the lower half of the piston, split at the wrist pin. All the bearings are like new, and the oil pump looked to be in great shape, so it was not a lack of oil that caused the rod to disintegrated.
Anyway... After looking at the bottom of the cylinders, there is no way that 617a squirters will ever work in the 616 block. The oil supply is in the right area, but the casting is not even close to machineable in order to mount them.
I have been figuring I would have to make some if I want them, and it looks like each one may be unique to each cylinder. I will have them printed out of aluminum so they will be just like the real thing, but made for the 616 block with some careful machining to the block for them.
I just got the block out of the back of the truck, and got the pistons and crank out of it.
The #1 rod is completely gone as is the lower half of the piston, split at the wrist pin. All the bearings are like new, and the oil pump looked to be in great shape, so it was not a lack of oil that caused the rod to disintegrated.
Anyway... After looking at the bottom of the cylinders, there is no way that 617a squirters will ever work in the 616 block. The oil supply is in the right area, but the casting is not even close to machineable in order to mount them.
I have been figuring I would have to make some if I want them, and it looks like each one may be unique to each cylinder. I will have them printed out of aluminum so they will be just like the real thing, but made for the 616 block with some careful machining to the block for them.
There still may be a chance that the 617a squirters may work, I'm fearful of machining back into the side wall too far, I don't want any cracking long term.
I also noticed while inspecting the pistons that there is concentrated scuffing where the two rear PC ports are, obviously heating the piston at those locations causing more local expansion. Nothing scary, the anti detonation grooves are still there, just worn a little more in those spots. Could have been from running it to hard before it was warmed up in the winter time.. I think cooled piston domes would be a plus for sure when really pushing the power for sustained periods of time, but for short bursts, quality NA pistons would probably be just fine IMOP.
Well I got the block up on an operating table and under a working light lol... After spending some time looking at it, I came to the conclusion that I need to get a 617a squirter to see just how small it really is. It’s hard to get perspective from the zoomed in pics lol...
There still may be a chance that the 617a squirters may work, I'm fearful of machining back into the side wall too far, I don't want any cracking long term.
I also noticed while inspecting the pistons that there is concentrated scuffing where the two rear PC ports are, obviously heating the piston at those locations causing more local expansion. Nothing scary, the anti detonation grooves are still there, just worn a little more in those spots. Could have been from running it to hard before it was warmed up in the winter time.. I think cooled piston domes would be a plus for sure when really pushing the power for sustained periods of time, but for short bursts, quality NA pistons would probably be just fine IMOP.
I wonder how much lower comp would help? i mean to between 18-19. Seems to do wonders for the old chevy 6.2. stock is 22, and gutless, turbo it and you have power but no longevity(unless you live by your pyro), but it seems marine piston(they r 18) will solve the longevity problem. this is not from personal experience just wat ive heard.
thats interesting. i always thought the #1 rod throw due to low oil and the wrist pin not receiving proper lubrication. seems like its something to do more with the wrist pin itself(or the rod) but im not sure why it would happen to #1 a significant amount more then any other rod.
I wonder how much lower comp would help? i mean to between 18-19. Seems to do wonders for the old chevy 6.2. stock is 22, and gutless, turbo it and you have power but no longevity(unless you live by your pyro), but it seems marine piston(they r 18) will solve the longevity problem. this is not from personal experience just wat ive heard.
3 Guest(s)
3 Guest(s)