methods of IP timing
methods of IP timing
11-04-2013, 02:08 PM
#1
which one is the way you other home mechanics do it, and which way would a shop probably do it if i took the car in for this? is there a consensus in here about which method to use, or does everyone have their own favorite approach?
(PS my rationale for resetting it is excessive white smoke while warming up - picture passers-by covering their mouths and crossing the street to avoid it. the exhaust is barely noticeable once the 617 is warm. i already adjusted the valves and installed rebuilt injectors.)
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
hi folks, i have the impression that there are a number of ways of setting IP timing; some of them require special tools or machines; there is also the "stupid-ass drip shit"....
which one is the way you other home mechanics do it, and which way would a shop probably do it if i took the car in for this? is there a consensus in here about which method to use, or does everyone have their own favorite approach?
(PS my rationale for resetting it is excessive white smoke while warming up - picture passers-by covering their mouths and crossing the street to avoid it. the exhaust is barely noticeable once the 617 is warm. i already adjusted the valves and installed rebuilt injectors.)
english red rat rod 1977 240D, OM617.952 burning B99.9, iron 4-speed & 2.88 diff, 195/60/R14 on alloys, 5mph bumpers, battery in the trunk, 25mm swaybar, 4x ECE H4 lamps, double brake lamps, deleted sunroof, export zoll & california blue plates
11-04-2013, 03:44 PM
#3
But isn't the drip method the "official" way to do it?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
On our tractors I set it by ear and how it starts and if it runs correctly
But isn't the drip method the "official" way to do it?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
11-04-2013, 03:46 PM
#4
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-04-2013, 03:46 PM #4I drip time because I'm a knuckle-dragging cretin
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
11-04-2013, 04:15 PM
#5
(11-04-2013, 03:44 PM)MFSuper90 On our tractors I set it by ear and how it starts and if it runs correctly
So you understand what it means to truly tune the engine, so many people think that a speck in a manual is best for an engine with many miles on it, running on fuel that varies greatly around the world..
I use the plunger height to set the initial timing so I know where I am starting from, then adjust by ear, EGT, and performance. Then if I ever have to remove the IP, I can see where the timing is and get it back in exactly the same place.
(11-04-2013, 03:44 PM)MFSuper90 On our tractors I set it by ear and how it starts and if it runs correctly
So you understand what it means to truly tune the engine, so many people think that a speck in a manual is best for an engine with many miles on it, running on fuel that varies greatly around the world..
I use the plunger height to set the initial timing so I know where I am starting from, then adjust by ear, EGT, and performance. Then if I ever have to remove the IP, I can see where the timing is and get it back in exactly the same place.
11-04-2013, 08:35 PM
#7
Austincarnut
11-04-2013, 08:35 PM #7drip timing is the most accurate as it is sort-of dynamic, you will actually see when the start of delivery begins and you can dial in wherever/whenever you want that to happen
11-04-2013, 09:05 PM
#8
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
11-04-2013, 09:05 PM #8I tried the drip method, couldn't get it to the 1 drip/second at 26° BTDC, so I just advanced the timing all the way. Yeah it kind of runs like crap when I start it up if it's below 75 out, but it runs fine once it's warmed up
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
11-05-2013, 01:18 AM
#9
(11-04-2013, 08:35 PM)Austincarnut drip timing is the most accurate as it is sort-of dynamic, you will actually see when the start of delivery begins and you can dial in wherever/whenever you want that to happen
I was thinking the same thing. But how does the plunger hight method work? Just measuring the hight of the plunjers won't work because you can't see the injection start. Even with the drip method the injection is later cause of the buildup of pressure takes a some time (0.5mm or so)...
(11-04-2013, 08:35 PM)Austincarnut drip timing is the most accurate as it is sort-of dynamic, you will actually see when the start of delivery begins and you can dial in wherever/whenever you want that to happen
I was thinking the same thing. But how does the plunger hight method work? Just measuring the hight of the plunjers won't work because you can't see the injection start. Even with the drip method the injection is later cause of the buildup of pressure takes a some time (0.5mm or so)...
11-05-2013, 02:29 AM
#10
Example, You set the timing with drip method at 20 BTDC, BUT you have the element at low idle. Element have a retard notch that sets timing 2 pump degrees later. what your timing at full load then?
Today most pumps have pin timing or locking of driveshaft, that is the workshop sets the timing on the pump, ex injection start + 5,5 degree offset, set Engine to TDC and put pump in = 11 degree BTDC.
dieselmeken
11-05-2013, 02:29 AM #10Drip method is OK if you take out the deliveryvalve plunger & spring so fuel can be primed by hand, Engine turned until fuel stops to come = Injection begin. BUT BE CAREFUL AND ASK YOURSELF; DOES THIS ELEMENT HAVE A RETARD NOTCH AT LOW IDLE? IS THE RACK AT MAX FUEL OR WHER IS IT? DOES THIS ELEMENT HAVE A NOTCH THAT SETS THE TIMING LATER AT EXCESS FUEL?
Example, You set the timing with drip method at 20 BTDC, BUT you have the element at low idle. Element have a retard notch that sets timing 2 pump degrees later. what your timing at full load then?
Today most pumps have pin timing or locking of driveshaft, that is the workshop sets the timing on the pump, ex injection start + 5,5 degree offset, set Engine to TDC and put pump in = 11 degree BTDC.
11-05-2013, 03:23 AM
#11
(11-04-2013, 05:34 PM)mantahead hi,
i use the dyno and adjust for max power with lowest Egt.
I do the same with my pulling tractor
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
11-05-2013, 12:08 PM
#12
(11-05-2013, 01:18 AM)Tito But how does the plunger hight method work? Just measuring the hight of the plunjers won't work because you can't see the injection start. Even with the drip method the injection is later cause of the buildup of pressure takes a some time (0.5mm or so)...
First, the actual start of injection does not take place at port closure as you mentioned. Port closure is a consistent reference to time the crank to. The actually moment that the injector starts injecting fuel is affected by the viscosity of the fuel, Delivery Valves, Injector Pop Pressure.. Etc. That is why a generic speck will not yield the best performance, as, each engine, with it's own unique combination of settings and states of wear, will require the actual timing to be set to what ever suits it best, but the generic speck is a good place to start from.
As for measuring the plunger height... When an IP is built, the #1 element is set to close the fill port at a certain amount of plunger lift, (5.5mm MW has a spec, M has different ones). It is to this lift speck that I am referencing when I measure the plunger height, as it is at this point where the fill port closes (+- Assembly tolerance).
From there I adjust to what ever the engine wants...
Dieselmeken brings up an excellent point about throttle position when using the drip method. That is very important.
(11-05-2013, 01:18 AM)Tito But how does the plunger hight method work? Just measuring the hight of the plunjers won't work because you can't see the injection start. Even with the drip method the injection is later cause of the buildup of pressure takes a some time (0.5mm or so)...
First, the actual start of injection does not take place at port closure as you mentioned. Port closure is a consistent reference to time the crank to. The actually moment that the injector starts injecting fuel is affected by the viscosity of the fuel, Delivery Valves, Injector Pop Pressure.. Etc. That is why a generic speck will not yield the best performance, as, each engine, with it's own unique combination of settings and states of wear, will require the actual timing to be set to what ever suits it best, but the generic speck is a good place to start from.
As for measuring the plunger height... When an IP is built, the #1 element is set to close the fill port at a certain amount of plunger lift, (5.5mm MW has a spec, M has different ones). It is to this lift speck that I am referencing when I measure the plunger height, as it is at this point where the fill port closes (+- Assembly tolerance).
From there I adjust to what ever the engine wants...
Dieselmeken brings up an excellent point about throttle position when using the drip method. That is very important.
11-05-2013, 04:20 PM
#14
<-----Let the beating begin
Duncansport
11-05-2013, 04:20 PM #14This subject is getting way to much attention.....
<-----Let the beating begin
11-05-2013, 10:13 PM
#15
(11-05-2013, 04:20 PM)Duncansport This subject is getting way to much attention.....
<-----Let the beating begin
Austincarnut
11-05-2013, 10:13 PM #15beating?
(11-05-2013, 04:20 PM)Duncansport This subject is getting way to much attention.....
<-----Let the beating begin
11-07-2013, 02:45 PM
#17
(11-05-2013, 10:13 PM)Austincarnut beating?
(11-05-2013, 04:20 PM)Duncansport This subject is getting way to much attention.....
<-----Let the beating begin
AKA Ham Shankin'
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-07-2013, 02:45 PM #17(11-05-2013, 10:13 PM)Austincarnut beating?
(11-05-2013, 04:20 PM)Duncansport This subject is getting way to much attention.....
<-----Let the beating begin
AKA Ham Shankin'
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
06-20-2014, 05:33 PM
#19
set by that special led-electronic part that some mechanics use.
is the engine runing hot a symptom of a badly timed pump?
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
06-20-2014, 05:33 PM #19regarding timing, my om602 runs a tad hot, it starts good, kind of mad idle the first 10seconds, but then good...
set by that special led-electronic part that some mechanics use.
is the engine runing hot a symptom of a badly timed pump?
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
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