G class OM606 superturbo build
G class OM606 superturbo build
11-05-2013, 05:14 PM
#1
In the meantime though, I've just got everything together for the engine rebuild itself and thought I'd share some new pics - especially of the head work that Ric Woods racing has done (www.cncheads.co.uk).
Summary of build: '98 block OM606.962 (<100K miles), total strip and rebuild new bearings, seals, rings etc etc. Conversion to 606.964 spec using all parts (sump, pump etc etc) to match G class that was available with this engine at one time (not in UK though).
Then.. 7mm Myna pump from 603 with hybrid HX40/HX35 (BAE turbo performance upgrade kit/ 12cm housing). Equal length fully manifold (see my other post about this subproject). AMW tapered intake plenum through W-A chargecooler. Head work by Ric Woods with re-profiled cams, KMS springs/ racing guides etc. Gearbox BMW GS6-53Z from 2010 E46/91 (new style), custom flywheel, Tilton Cerametallic twin plate clutch (again see my other posts for this subproject).
For all the pics, head over to my Flickr account - http://www.flickr.com/photos/benstoneham...696644374/
Here are a couple of examples of some of what is documented there. As I start the rebuild, I'll document it in this thread
Nice clean head!
![[Image: 10696468945_708643bdda_h.jpg]](http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/10696468945_708643bdda_h.jpg)
Ric Woods also Re-profiled cams - brief was mid-range torque.
![[Image: 10696545404_753a573f7c_h.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3736/10696545404_753a573f7c_h.jpg)
Quite a bit of time on the flow bench was required to make any improvement - stock head is very good already.
![[Image: 10696455165_fa81c0a3b8_h.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/10696455165_fa81c0a3b8_h.jpg)
Parts all ready to go. Other than casing, pistons, rods and crank almost everything else is being replaced.
![[Image: 9654088596_26f78435b0_h.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3825/9654088596_26f78435b0_h.jpg)
Pump back from Myna. 7mm elements to go with Hybrid HX35/40. Low/no smoke is objective!
![[Image: 9728619285_b567eb6d3f_h.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/9728619285_b567eb6d3f_h.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
I've had a few other threads around on this project - BMW GS6 Gearbox adapter is most recent and I'll keep adding to that as I progress.
In the meantime though, I've just got everything together for the engine rebuild itself and thought I'd share some new pics - especially of the head work that Ric Woods racing has done (www.cncheads.co.uk).
Summary of build: '98 block OM606.962 (<100K miles), total strip and rebuild new bearings, seals, rings etc etc. Conversion to 606.964 spec using all parts (sump, pump etc etc) to match G class that was available with this engine at one time (not in UK though).
Then.. 7mm Myna pump from 603 with hybrid HX40/HX35 (BAE turbo performance upgrade kit/ 12cm housing). Equal length fully manifold (see my other post about this subproject). AMW tapered intake plenum through W-A chargecooler. Head work by Ric Woods with re-profiled cams, KMS springs/ racing guides etc. Gearbox BMW GS6-53Z from 2010 E46/91 (new style), custom flywheel, Tilton Cerametallic twin plate clutch (again see my other posts for this subproject).
For all the pics, head over to my Flickr account - http://www.flickr.com/photos/benstoneham...696644374/
Here are a couple of examples of some of what is documented there. As I start the rebuild, I'll document it in this thread
Nice clean head!
Ric Woods also Re-profiled cams - brief was mid-range torque.
Quite a bit of time on the flow bench was required to make any improvement - stock head is very good already.
Parts all ready to go. Other than casing, pistons, rods and crank almost everything else is being replaced.
Pump back from Myna. 7mm elements to go with Hybrid HX35/40. Low/no smoke is objective!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-05-2013, 06:25 PM
#3
Be interessting what this will put out!
DiseaselWeasel
11-05-2013, 06:25 PM #3Whats the story behind the ALDA? Mynä ALDA? Looks interessting!
Be interessting what this will put out!
11-06-2013, 09:35 PM
#4
I picked up a 606A that already had the 603 IP retrofitted (was going on a W124) that retained the stock 5.5mm elements. I'm not going for high horsepower, but rather something better suited for modern driving than the non-turbo 617 that's currently matted to the 4-speed.
I picked up a Getrag 5-speed from a W463 and have swapped the CV on the back to the older 8-bolt flange. I anticipate having to machine a custom-length propshaft.
But I'm still figuring things out... keep the K14 or upgrade to the Holset 35, as I'll be running with an Iveco 2.9L van intercooler. I'm more interested in keeping the engine cool and running for a long time than I am high power (at first, at least).
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
I will be following your project closely, as this is very close to what I'm doing. Based on your refurbishing, I'm thinking you have a good amount of money in this and it will be going into a 463 chassis. I'm old school, a W460, with the VG80 transfer case.
I picked up a 606A that already had the 603 IP retrofitted (was going on a W124) that retained the stock 5.5mm elements. I'm not going for high horsepower, but rather something better suited for modern driving than the non-turbo 617 that's currently matted to the 4-speed.
I picked up a Getrag 5-speed from a W463 and have swapped the CV on the back to the older 8-bolt flange. I anticipate having to machine a custom-length propshaft.
But I'm still figuring things out... keep the K14 or upgrade to the Holset 35, as I'll be running with an Iveco 2.9L van intercooler. I'm more interested in keeping the engine cool and running for a long time than I am high power (at first, at least).
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
11-07-2013, 07:48 AM
#5
(11-06-2013, 09:35 PM)Suppatime I will be following your project closely, as this is very close to what I'm doing. Based on your refurbishing, I'm thinking you have a good amount of money in this and it will be going into a 463 chassis. I'm old school, a W460, with the VG80 transfer case.
I picked up a 606A that already had the 603 IP retrofitted (was going on a W124) that retained the stock 5.5mm elements. I'm not going for high horsepower, but rather something better suited for modern driving than the non-turbo 617 that's currently matted to the 4-speed.
I picked up a Getrag 5-speed from a W463 and have swapped the CV on the back to the older 8-bolt flange. I anticipate having to machine a custom-length propshaft.
But I'm still figuring things out... keep the K14 or upgrade to the Holset 35, as I'll be running with an Iveco 2.9L van intercooler. I'm more interested in keeping the engine cool and running for a long time than I am high power (at first, at least).
Hi there :-)
Actually I've got a 460 too ('86) - its been restored - body off etc but my preference is for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 even though the xfer box is rated 400Nm less (I always get anecdotal stories of box and diff failures on 460s but none 1st hand). Non permanent 4wd won't make a difference for the application I have planned (desert rally).
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(11-06-2013, 09:35 PM)Suppatime I will be following your project closely, as this is very close to what I'm doing. Based on your refurbishing, I'm thinking you have a good amount of money in this and it will be going into a 463 chassis. I'm old school, a W460, with the VG80 transfer case.
I picked up a 606A that already had the 603 IP retrofitted (was going on a W124) that retained the stock 5.5mm elements. I'm not going for high horsepower, but rather something better suited for modern driving than the non-turbo 617 that's currently matted to the 4-speed.
I picked up a Getrag 5-speed from a W463 and have swapped the CV on the back to the older 8-bolt flange. I anticipate having to machine a custom-length propshaft.
But I'm still figuring things out... keep the K14 or upgrade to the Holset 35, as I'll be running with an Iveco 2.9L van intercooler. I'm more interested in keeping the engine cool and running for a long time than I am high power (at first, at least).
Hi there :-)
Actually I've got a 460 too ('86) - its been restored - body off etc but my preference is for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 even though the xfer box is rated 400Nm less (I always get anecdotal stories of box and diff failures on 460s but none 1st hand). Non permanent 4wd won't make a difference for the application I have planned (desert rally).
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-07-2013, 11:26 AM
#6
(11-07-2013, 07:48 AM)fcp Hi there :-)
Actually I've got a 460 too ('86) - its been restored - body off etc but my preference is for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 even though the xfer box is rated 400Nm less (I always get anecdotal stories of box and diff failures on 460s but none 1st hand). Non permanent 4wd won't make a difference for the application I have planned (desert rally).
Awesome! It'll be interesting to see how these both go. I'll PM you my info later, maybe we can trade info or parts as necessary.
My engine and trans are sitting on a pallet as they'll be going in after I deal with some moderate rust issues (have 2 new SWB rocker panel sets straight frot Austria and will get 2 of the 6 body mounts fabricated as well as floor pan repairs.
I've heard stories of VG80 failure too, but I figure if they were used on the 461 with the 603, they have to be rated for higher torque. I don't plan on towing much of anything.
Still, I'm going for low power until I make sure things aren't going to shatter. One thought is to chryo-treat transmission and transfer case gears, but that's a big process.
Aside from your rebuild and turbo, our biggest difference is transmission -- I have a W463 Getrag 5-speed with overdrive, so I'm eager to see how it performs with the 606 (it was matted to the 603 prior to rebuild).
I too am interested in mechanical simplicity, and I'm building my G as a daily driver that is also a capable overland vehicle for camping and exploring. I'm building specifically for a trail; there's a 640 mile path between San Francisco an Denver I'm hoping to make with a single tank of diesel.
With your upgrade, what intercooler are you planning on running? Have you sourced piping yet? I highly recommend Donaldson air cleaners, especially considering rallying. Have you found any injector upgrades? Any ideas for glow plugs that don't get stuck?
This post was last modified: 11-07-2013, 11:34 AM by Suppatime.
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
(11-07-2013, 07:48 AM)fcp Hi there :-)
Actually I've got a 460 too ('86) - its been restored - body off etc but my preference is for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 even though the xfer box is rated 400Nm less (I always get anecdotal stories of box and diff failures on 460s but none 1st hand). Non permanent 4wd won't make a difference for the application I have planned (desert rally).
Awesome! It'll be interesting to see how these both go. I'll PM you my info later, maybe we can trade info or parts as necessary.
My engine and trans are sitting on a pallet as they'll be going in after I deal with some moderate rust issues (have 2 new SWB rocker panel sets straight frot Austria and will get 2 of the 6 body mounts fabricated as well as floor pan repairs.
I've heard stories of VG80 failure too, but I figure if they were used on the 461 with the 603, they have to be rated for higher torque. I don't plan on towing much of anything.
Still, I'm going for low power until I make sure things aren't going to shatter. One thought is to chryo-treat transmission and transfer case gears, but that's a big process.
Aside from your rebuild and turbo, our biggest difference is transmission -- I have a W463 Getrag 5-speed with overdrive, so I'm eager to see how it performs with the 606 (it was matted to the 603 prior to rebuild).
I too am interested in mechanical simplicity, and I'm building my G as a daily driver that is also a capable overland vehicle for camping and exploring. I'm building specifically for a trail; there's a 640 mile path between San Francisco an Denver I'm hoping to make with a single tank of diesel.
With your upgrade, what intercooler are you planning on running? Have you sourced piping yet? I highly recommend Donaldson air cleaners, especially considering rallying. Have you found any injector upgrades? Any ideas for glow plugs that don't get stuck?
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
11-07-2013, 05:33 PM
#7
The gearbox would probably fail first (see EDH threads here for examples
). I've no experience with cryo-treatment, but I thought it was most effective applied to new forgings for stress relief before the develop cracks?Either way wise person pointed out to me once that a well designed driveline will be comprised of components that are designed to fail in a sensible order with weaker components down stream failing before the more expensive ones do.
Intercooler piping - not decided yet, but I suppose I'd draw it in Solidworks and then get someone to CNC bend it once I know the final layout of the bay (I guess we are pretty fortunate here in the south of the UK in that one of the few industries we still do pretty well is build racing cars (80% of F1 teams are within 50 miles of here) and so there are a lot of possibilities for sourcing people to fabricate things with high-tech prototyping and that kind of thing quite readily available and reasonably priced.
Thanks for the tip on air filters.
Injectors will be Fratelli Bosio when I get around to ordering them.
Glow plugs are my nemesis. My advice is don't ever try to remove them from a head when its off the engine! I learned the hard way (seems to be a theme for me!). Get the engine warm (really warm) and go slow. Advice given to me was if you use a calibrated torque wrench, set it to <35Nm and you *shoudn't* break a plug!
If you do (and the head is off), get it machined out. Trying to drill it yourself is very tricky (ask me how I know...).
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Unless you are planning to do a bunch of stuff to the engine to really increase its output, I don't think you'll bust the transfer box in normal use with what you have planned (though anything if abused enough etc etc). The 460 box is rated to 800Nm which is a lot!
The gearbox would probably fail first (see EDH threads here for examples ). I've no experience with cryo-treatment, but I thought it was most effective applied to new forgings for stress relief before the develop cracks?
Either way wise person pointed out to me once that a well designed driveline will be comprised of components that are designed to fail in a sensible order with weaker components down stream failing before the more expensive ones do.
Intercooler piping - not decided yet, but I suppose I'd draw it in Solidworks and then get someone to CNC bend it once I know the final layout of the bay (I guess we are pretty fortunate here in the south of the UK in that one of the few industries we still do pretty well is build racing cars (80% of F1 teams are within 50 miles of here) and so there are a lot of possibilities for sourcing people to fabricate things with high-tech prototyping and that kind of thing quite readily available and reasonably priced.
Thanks for the tip on air filters.
Injectors will be Fratelli Bosio when I get around to ordering them.
Glow plugs are my nemesis. My advice is don't ever try to remove them from a head when its off the engine! I learned the hard way (seems to be a theme for me!). Get the engine warm (really warm) and go slow. Advice given to me was if you use a calibrated torque wrench, set it to <35Nm and you *shoudn't* break a plug!
If you do (and the head is off), get it machined out. Trying to drill it yourself is very tricky (ask me how I know...).
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-08-2013, 11:16 AM
#8
Luckily for me, my trans is a fresh rebuild. Leading me to believe either my non-turbo 606 clutch will likely be the first to go. I opted for the dual-mass flywheel to take away some of the initial jolt under acceleration, as I have the short input shaft.
Regarding cryo-treatment, you're absolutely right. Which is why I'd be doing that to the TC if I have to get a new one.
I'm trying to go as factory looking as I can with my swap, so I'm anticipating rubber hoses. While you have F1 at your disposal (awesome), I have some of the best hot rod builders in the world here in SoCal. I'll be sure to report back.
I'm struggling with the oil pan, though I don't anticipate extreme off roading. I might get one fabricated.
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
I don't think I'll break much of anything either... if I do, I assume it to be old and worn parts anyway. While the VG80 is rated for 800Nm, don't forget to multiply the torque... I'm only fearful for 4WD Low.
Luckily for me, my trans is a fresh rebuild. Leading me to believe either my non-turbo 606 clutch will likely be the first to go. I opted for the dual-mass flywheel to take away some of the initial jolt under acceleration, as I have the short input shaft.
Regarding cryo-treatment, you're absolutely right. Which is why I'd be doing that to the TC if I have to get a new one.
I'm trying to go as factory looking as I can with my swap, so I'm anticipating rubber hoses. While you have F1 at your disposal (awesome), I have some of the best hot rod builders in the world here in SoCal. I'll be sure to report back.
I'm struggling with the oil pan, though I don't anticipate extreme off roading. I might get one fabricated.
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
11-08-2013, 11:52 AM
#9
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-08-2013, 11:52 AM #9Its very very hard to make full power in 4wd low anyways
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
11-08-2013, 12:35 PM
#10
For oil pan - its pretty common over here to cut an re-weld (though can be tricky to avoid warping). The correct 606.964 pan is available from MB too which if you are thinking about serious off-roading isn't a bad idea since it has all of the baffling required for the application.
I guess you could do a dry-sump conversion!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Yes, I don't anticipate using low ratio for my application really.
For oil pan - its pretty common over here to cut an re-weld (though can be tricky to avoid warping). The correct 606.964 pan is available from MB too which if you are thinking about serious off-roading isn't a bad idea since it has all of the baffling required for the application.
I guess you could do a dry-sump conversion!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-11-2013, 12:59 PM
#12
(11-08-2013, 11:52 AM)willbhere4u Its very very hard to make full power in 4wd low anyways
I think it's really easy-in the Heep, 1st gear 4low I tag 3,000rpm easily (roughly torque peak, redline at 5500). 4low is a beast!!
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
11-11-2013, 12:59 PM #12(11-08-2013, 11:52 AM)willbhere4u Its very very hard to make full power in 4wd low anyways
I think it's really easy-in the Heep, 1st gear 4low I tag 3,000rpm easily (roughly torque peak, redline at 5500). 4low is a beast!!
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
11-17-2013, 05:28 PM
#13
![[Image: 10911730714_b3338b5c5b_h.jpg]](http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10911730714_b3338b5c5b_h.jpg)
![[Image: 10911703575_88ebc4a63b_h.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/10911703575_88ebc4a63b_h.jpg)
![[Image: 10911731504_cb61b2e6ce_h.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/10911731504_cb61b2e6ce_h.jpg)
![[Image: 10911597795_ba0f35fe42_h.jpg]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/10911597795_ba0f35fe42_h.jpg)
![[Image: 10911633746_ecb87551f0_b.jpg]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3714/10911633746_ecb87551f0_b.jpg)
![[Image: 10911588815_609161dbdd_b.jpg]](http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2874/10911588815_609161dbdd_b.jpg)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
Couple of new pics - BAE Turbo Systems shipment arrived this week. Their performance upgrade kit for the HX35 is based around a HX40 compressor housing with bigger compressor and exhaust turbine wheels (10 blade), but using same 12cm2 housing. Ideas is HX40 flow with HX35 spool time.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-18-2013, 04:08 PM
#16
(11-11-2013, 12:45 PM)kotka Any injector tips of Fratelli range? I'll have similar setup but don't know what to do with injectors...
I'm going to buy Fratelli nozzles, fit to existing injectors and get them balanced. Beyond consistency (quality), I don't think there's much to strive for with injector nozzles is there?
(11-18-2013, 10:27 AM)MFSuper90 In Murica, we call that a hx35/40 hybrid
Yup.. It will be interesting to see what power it makes with the 7mm Myna pump, head-work and manifolds.
I think standard HX35 would be good for 350 or so. I'd be pleased to see 400-450 from this, but who knows.
This post was last modified: 11-18-2013, 04:10 PM by fcp.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(11-11-2013, 12:45 PM)kotka Any injector tips of Fratelli range? I'll have similar setup but don't know what to do with injectors...
I'm going to buy Fratelli nozzles, fit to existing injectors and get them balanced. Beyond consistency (quality), I don't think there's much to strive for with injector nozzles is there?
(11-18-2013, 10:27 AM)MFSuper90 In Murica, we call that a hx35/40 hybrid
Yup.. It will be interesting to see what power it makes with the 7mm Myna pump, head-work and manifolds.
I think standard HX35 would be good for 350 or so. I'd be pleased to see 400-450 from this, but who knows.
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-19-2013, 06:12 AM
#17
(11-18-2013, 04:08 PM)fcp I think standard HX35 would be good for 350 or so. I'd be pleased to see 400-450 from this, but who knows.
I think it's still in the 350 range, since the neck of the bottle is #12 turbine housing. Maybe you'll get close to 400, but not 450.
Low backpresurre is the key element to get big hp. For example, in my previous OM606 I raised boost, did fuel, air filter etc mods in 390hp range and gained few hp per mod, but the real benefits of mods came with the bigger turbine. With 60mm turbine exducer and small housing the best was 402, but changing that to 69mm exd. and #16 housing got 446. With stock internals. The latter turbine would have been good for much more.
Nice to see you giving serious attention to the build, looks very good!
This post was last modified: 11-19-2013, 06:14 AM by muuris.
(11-18-2013, 04:08 PM)fcp I think standard HX35 would be good for 350 or so. I'd be pleased to see 400-450 from this, but who knows.
I think it's still in the 350 range, since the neck of the bottle is #12 turbine housing. Maybe you'll get close to 400, but not 450.
Low backpresurre is the key element to get big hp. For example, in my previous OM606 I raised boost, did fuel, air filter etc mods in 390hp range and gained few hp per mod, but the real benefits of mods came with the bigger turbine. With 60mm turbine exducer and small housing the best was 402, but changing that to 69mm exd. and #16 housing got 446. With stock internals. The latter turbine would have been good for much more.
Nice to see you giving serious attention to the build, looks very good!
11-19-2013, 11:36 AM
#18
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Think an external waste gate could help him out some? That way he could bleed off the extra back pressure.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
11-19-2013, 12:29 PM
#19
I'm trying to decide whether or not I'll keep the stock KKK K14 and find a way to convert it to manual wastegate (set at about 14psi for the 150 or so hp I'll be getting out of the engine with a stock 603 IP and 5.5mm elements?) or spend the money to get the Holset HX35 that is way overkill for my G.
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
Man, this is getting good.
I'm trying to decide whether or not I'll keep the stock KKK K14 and find a way to convert it to manual wastegate (set at about 14psi for the 150 or so hp I'll be getting out of the engine with a stock 603 IP and 5.5mm elements?) or spend the money to get the Holset HX35 that is way overkill for my G.
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
11-19-2013, 06:09 PM
#20
(11-19-2013, 11:36 AM)MFSuper90 Think an external waste gate could help him out some? That way he could bleed off the extra back pressure.
I've been working on the manifold design but haven't got anything produced yet.
I have been thinking of a pair of Tial MV-S wastegates (one for each side of the split manifold), but unless I am missing the point you make (or making an incorrect assumption which is also quite probable..), how would they help with exhaust side backpressure here? (as wastegates bleed off boost side).
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(11-19-2013, 11:36 AM)MFSuper90 Think an external waste gate could help him out some? That way he could bleed off the extra back pressure.
I've been working on the manifold design but haven't got anything produced yet.
I have been thinking of a pair of Tial MV-S wastegates (one for each side of the split manifold), but unless I am missing the point you make (or making an incorrect assumption which is also quite probable..), how would they help with exhaust side backpressure here? (as wastegates bleed off boost side).
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-19-2013, 11:22 PM
#21
(11-19-2013, 06:09 PM)fcp I have been thinking of a pair of Tial MV-S wastegates (one for each side of the split manifold), but unless I am missing the point you make (or making an incorrect assumption which is also quite probable..), how would they help with exhaust side backpressure here? (as wastegates bleed off boost side).
Wastegates bleed on the turbine side
Big wastegates help a bit, but won't change day to night. Bypassing turbine enough to make backpressure small also makes the boost small.. I think 1,5-1,7bar is max boost you can run, after that the backpressure will climb significantly faster than boost.
(11-19-2013, 06:09 PM)fcp I have been thinking of a pair of Tial MV-S wastegates (one for each side of the split manifold), but unless I am missing the point you make (or making an incorrect assumption which is also quite probable..), how would they help with exhaust side backpressure here? (as wastegates bleed off boost side).
Wastegates bleed on the turbine side
Big wastegates help a bit, but won't change day to night. Bypassing turbine enough to make backpressure small also makes the boost small.. I think 1,5-1,7bar is max boost you can run, after that the backpressure will climb significantly faster than boost.
11-20-2013, 01:49 AM
#22
(11-19-2013, 11:22 PM)muuris(11-19-2013, 06:09 PM)fcp I have been thinking of a pair of Tial MV-S wastegates (one for each side of the split manifold), but unless I am missing the point you make (or making an incorrect assumption which is also quite probable..), how would they help with exhaust side backpressure here? (as wastegates bleed off boost side).
Wastegates bleed on the turbine side
Sorry, re-reading what I wrote, I used a poor choice of words and wasn't very clear. What I had intended to convey was that -as you say that they reduce ('bleed' was a poor choice) boost pressure by bypassing on the turbine side.
But I still don't get how that would reduce back-pressure, I mean boost will grow until the wastegates begin to open.
Up to that point, the exhaust gas is venting via the turbine and so back pressure is a function of how well the gas is evacuated through the exhaust system.
Then at a pre-set level, the wastegates open, partially bypassing the turbine to vent - capping maximum boost. How will this affect backpressure on the climb up through boost though (which I think is the important part? after all, once you have made maximum desired boost, then however the gas is routed, it is simply a question of whether the exhaust system creates too much back-pressure?
If I'm being dumb here, please humour me and explain :-)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(11-19-2013, 11:22 PM)muuris(11-19-2013, 06:09 PM)fcp I have been thinking of a pair of Tial MV-S wastegates (one for each side of the split manifold), but unless I am missing the point you make (or making an incorrect assumption which is also quite probable..), how would they help with exhaust side backpressure here? (as wastegates bleed off boost side).
Wastegates bleed on the turbine side
Sorry, re-reading what I wrote, I used a poor choice of words and wasn't very clear. What I had intended to convey was that -as you say that they reduce ('bleed' was a poor choice) boost pressure by bypassing on the turbine side.
But I still don't get how that would reduce back-pressure, I mean boost will grow until the wastegates begin to open.
Up to that point, the exhaust gas is venting via the turbine and so back pressure is a function of how well the gas is evacuated through the exhaust system.
Then at a pre-set level, the wastegates open, partially bypassing the turbine to vent - capping maximum boost. How will this affect backpressure on the climb up through boost though (which I think is the important part? after all, once you have made maximum desired boost, then however the gas is routed, it is simply a question of whether the exhaust system creates too much back-pressure?
If I'm being dumb here, please humour me and explain :-)
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-20-2013, 11:22 PM
#23
(11-20-2013, 01:49 AM)fcp Then at a pre-set level, the wastegates open, partially bypassing the turbine to vent - capping maximum boost. How will this affect backpressure on the climb up through boost though (which I think is the important part? after all, once you have made maximum desired boost, then however the gas is routed, it is simply a question of whether the exhaust system creates too much back-pressure?
If I'm being dumb here, please humour me and explain :-)
You're on the right trail. As I wrote, it won't change day to night. Basically with a small turbine housing you've got to have a wastegate big enough to be able to maintain boost at desired level. Too small wastegate can't bypass turbine enough --> backpressure and boost will rise past desired. Backpressure goes up a bit earlier, by the time you see boost climbing you know backpressure is high
The turbine has the biggest effect in backpressure, much more than exhaust pipe or manifold. I tried my previous setup even with OM606 stock exhaust manifold and had the same max power (~450), even though spoolup was weakened a lot.
(11-20-2013, 01:49 AM)fcp Then at a pre-set level, the wastegates open, partially bypassing the turbine to vent - capping maximum boost. How will this affect backpressure on the climb up through boost though (which I think is the important part? after all, once you have made maximum desired boost, then however the gas is routed, it is simply a question of whether the exhaust system creates too much back-pressure?
If I'm being dumb here, please humour me and explain :-)
You're on the right trail. As I wrote, it won't change day to night. Basically with a small turbine housing you've got to have a wastegate big enough to be able to maintain boost at desired level. Too small wastegate can't bypass turbine enough --> backpressure and boost will rise past desired. Backpressure goes up a bit earlier, by the time you see boost climbing you know backpressure is high
The turbine has the biggest effect in backpressure, much more than exhaust pipe or manifold. I tried my previous setup even with OM606 stock exhaust manifold and had the same max power (~450), even though spoolup was weakened a lot.
11-21-2013, 02:25 PM
#24
(11-20-2013, 11:22 PM)muuris(11-20-2013, 01:49 AM)fcp Then at a pre-set level, the wastegates open, partially bypassing the turbine to vent - capping maximum boost. How will this affect backpressure on the climb up through boost though (which I think is the important part? after all, once you have made maximum desired boost, then however the gas is routed, it is simply a question of whether the exhaust system creates too much back-pressure?
If I'm being dumb here, please humour me and explain :-)
You're on the right trail. As I wrote, it won't change day to night. Basically with a small turbine housing you've got to have a wastegate big enough to be able to maintain boost at desired level. Too small wastegate can't bypass turbine enough --> backpressure and boost will rise past desired. Backpressure goes up a bit earlier, by the time you see boost climbing you know backpressure is high
The turbine has the biggest effect in backpressure, much more than exhaust pipe or manifold. I tried my previous setup even with OM606 stock exhaust manifold and had the same max power (~450), even though spoolup was weakened a lot.
To be honest, 50 or even 100HP here or there won't be as useful to me as spread of torque and in relation to that spool up speed. I'm going to have to suck it and see I guess!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
(11-20-2013, 11:22 PM)muuris(11-20-2013, 01:49 AM)fcp Then at a pre-set level, the wastegates open, partially bypassing the turbine to vent - capping maximum boost. How will this affect backpressure on the climb up through boost though (which I think is the important part? after all, once you have made maximum desired boost, then however the gas is routed, it is simply a question of whether the exhaust system creates too much back-pressure?
If I'm being dumb here, please humour me and explain :-)
You're on the right trail. As I wrote, it won't change day to night. Basically with a small turbine housing you've got to have a wastegate big enough to be able to maintain boost at desired level. Too small wastegate can't bypass turbine enough --> backpressure and boost will rise past desired. Backpressure goes up a bit earlier, by the time you see boost climbing you know backpressure is high
The turbine has the biggest effect in backpressure, much more than exhaust pipe or manifold. I tried my previous setup even with OM606 stock exhaust manifold and had the same max power (~450), even though spoolup was weakened a lot.
To be honest, 50 or even 100HP here or there won't be as useful to me as spread of torque and in relation to that spool up speed. I'm going to have to suck it and see I guess!
"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess." Oscar Wilde
11-22-2013, 09:15 AM
#26
Or a large VGT/VNT turbocharger?
Either option (sized and controlled properly) should allow you to reach full boost faster and help maintain full boost throughout the range.
That's the theory at least.
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
Have you considered using a "quick spool valve"?
Or a large VGT/VNT turbocharger?
Either option (sized and controlled properly) should allow you to reach full boost faster and help maintain full boost throughout the range.
That's the theory at least.
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
11-23-2013, 10:28 AM
#27
I think for his purposes, fcp is better off with his hybrid than the big vnt's that I've tried
Schwitzer S200v would be interesting and worth a try, but it's very, very rare and expensive. Those quick spool valves are a strange thing, if they were that good as marketed, then why can't one see them practically anywhere in use?
Don't want to capture this thread, but I'll write a little about own experiences.. I've tried both He351Ve and GT3788v on 606 and wouldn't recommend either. Even though they will build boost quicker than conventional charger, the performance isn't much better due to increased backpressure. I'd say He351Ve is quite close to HX40 with #14 turbine housing, you'll get similar performance with both.
I think for his purposes, fcp is better off with his hybrid than the big vnt's that I've tried
Schwitzer S200v would be interesting and worth a try, but it's very, very rare and expensive. Those quick spool valves are a strange thing, if they were that good as marketed, then why can't one see them practically anywhere in use?
11-23-2013, 04:18 PM
#28
(11-23-2013, 10:28 AM)muuris Don't want to capture this thread, but I'll write a little about own experiences.. I've tried both He351Ve and GT3788v on 606 and wouldn't recommend either. Even though they will build boost quicker than conventional charger, the performance isn't much better due to increased backpressure. I'd say He351Ve is quite close to HX40 with #14 turbine housing, you'll get similar performance with both.
I think for his purposes, fcp is better off with his hybrid than the big vnt's that I've tried
Schwitzer S200v would be interesting and worth a try, but it's very, very rare and expensive. Those quick spool valves are a strange thing, if they were that good as marketed, then why can't one see them practically anywhere in use?
Because they are expensive, and to utilize them fully you need a divided housing.
A friend from home that had a light pro pulling tractor had trouble spooling his charger, so he welded a piece of metal in the housing to divert all the pressure/flow to the large side of the turbine wheel to spin it better.
Kind of like a pinwheel that you blow on as a kid
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(11-23-2013, 10:28 AM)muuris Don't want to capture this thread, but I'll write a little about own experiences.. I've tried both He351Ve and GT3788v on 606 and wouldn't recommend either. Even though they will build boost quicker than conventional charger, the performance isn't much better due to increased backpressure. I'd say He351Ve is quite close to HX40 with #14 turbine housing, you'll get similar performance with both.
I think for his purposes, fcp is better off with his hybrid than the big vnt's that I've tried
Schwitzer S200v would be interesting and worth a try, but it's very, very rare and expensive. Those quick spool valves are a strange thing, if they were that good as marketed, then why can't one see them practically anywhere in use?
Because they are expensive, and to utilize them fully you need a divided housing.
A friend from home that had a light pro pulling tractor had trouble spooling his charger, so he welded a piece of metal in the housing to divert all the pressure/flow to the large side of the turbine wheel to spin it better.
Kind of like a pinwheel that you blow on as a kid
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
01-05-2014, 06:52 PM
#29
I'm gradually assembling parts for my W460 conversion... recently purchased a Garret T3 hybrid with T04 internals and a Volvo truck hot-side (57mm inlet). I'm debating on whether or not I'll keep these, as Axel606 (Mike) gave me a good heads-up regarding a vacuum-operated waste gate so I can modify the stock KKK turbo from electronic (pressure) to manual. With the waste gate set to 12psi, I was anticipating around 200 hp... though I'm more interested in fuel economy than high power.
As such, I might be in the position to sell both the Garrett T3 and my Donaldson air box as a package.
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
Any updates, FCP?
I'm gradually assembling parts for my W460 conversion... recently purchased a Garret T3 hybrid with T04 internals and a Volvo truck hot-side (57mm inlet). I'm debating on whether or not I'll keep these, as Axel606 (Mike) gave me a good heads-up regarding a vacuum-operated waste gate so I can modify the stock KKK turbo from electronic (pressure) to manual. With the waste gate set to 12psi, I was anticipating around 200 hp... though I'm more interested in fuel economy than high power.
As such, I might be in the position to sell both the Garrett T3 and my Donaldson air box as a package.
1980 Mercedes Benz 300GD (Gelandewagen)
OM617 n/a
4-speed manual
Front/Rear hydraulic lockers
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