OM606 with Bosch VE Pump
OM606 with Bosch VE Pump
Quick question. I have been offered an OM 606 from a 98 E Class, I was hoping to transplant the engine into my Land Rover Defender.
I also have access to a free 6cyl Bosch VE pump that I wanted to know would it fit the 606 and with the right elements and changing the governor, be able to put our ~200bhp to 250bhp?
This may seem like a completely stupid question; as I say, it may not even fit, but I figure you guys are the best to ask
Thanks in advance
Mat
Hi Guys…
Quick question. I have been offered an OM 606 from a 98 E Class, I was hoping to transplant the engine into my Land Rover Defender.
I also have access to a free 6cyl Bosch VE pump that I wanted to know would it fit the 606 and with the right elements and changing the governor, be able to put our ~200bhp to 250bhp?
This may seem like a completely stupid question; as I say, it may not even fit, but I figure you guys are the best to ask
Thanks in advance
Mat
Although the transfer case would not have the 10" drop of the landy one giving sharp prop shaft angles.. Scrap that idea. Lol
The be Pump will not fit you will need a non-electronic bosch M pump from a mercedes 603 engine.
Straight fit and will get you rolling, bigger elements and corresponding governor modifications are needed for more power but that is upwards or £1,300 as of this summer IIRC.
Good show on a landrover conversion though feel free to document it here!
H.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
It may be easier to source a 4-matic gearbox to go with the 606 rather than mate the 606 to the stock landy gearbox?
Although the transfer case would not have the 10" drop of the landy one giving sharp prop shaft angles.. Scrap that idea. Lol
The be Pump will not fit you will need a non-electronic bosch M pump from a mercedes 603 engine.
Straight fit and will get you rolling, bigger elements and corresponding governor modifications are needed for more power but that is upwards or £1,300 as of this summer IIRC.
Good show on a landrover conversion though feel free to document it here!
H.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
If you don't mind some fabrication, I can be made to fit. But it won't be as easy as the 603 pump
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
'80 300td na, 617A swap in progress (latest diesel project)
12valve cummins powered stuper duty
w/mechanically actuated VGT and 5x14's New to mbz's... got a lot of readin to do.
What rpm are you spinning? VE's don't like much more than 3800, 4200 tops fir short bursts...
'80 300td na, 617A swap in progress (latest diesel project)
12valve cummins powered stuper duty
w/mechanically actuated VGT and 5x14's New to mbz's... got a lot of readin to do.
I'll try and answer you all at once…
Onedakine; I was hoping to get up to the standard 606 rpm so 6,000, is that correct? I would be happy with any where near 5,000 though as I'm not aiming for all out top end power, if I can comfortably get to "modern motorway speeds" (with the gearing I'm running it would be around 3,200rpm in 5th or 4th auto) and sit at that I'd be happy. My 200tdi runs a ve pump and thats governed at 4,750rpm so I thought that may be achievable but maybe not on a 6cyl.
Mario; the pump is off a Cummins lorry engine I think… its currently sitting on a chassis with gearbox gone in a shed so I'm not even sure what it used to be without more investigation but for the money for a tweaked M pump this may be pointless anyway as the money I would have to spend to the the VE pump reconditioned and upgraded here in Ireland would buy a new M pump from Dieselmeken I would expect.
Hario; I am planning a complete rebuild of a 90, using V8 engine mounts and 4HP22EH gearbox, and this conversion kit:
http://www.smt.nu/default.asp?Expand=4&Display=3
The v8 drive system can be bought for aprox. £500 from an MOT failure discovery 1, the chassis mounts and galvanising would be aprox £400 and after that it would just be usual rebuild costs, depending on how far I go and how much I replace I'd be looking at around £3-4000.
All in all I'd have a OM606 powered Auto defender for aprox £8,000 with a completely reconditioned drive line etc.
Thats the general plan, the details, such as the injector pump, are still to be finalised… hence this thread
Mat
Sorry for no reply… internet died at home!!
I'll try and answer you all at once…
Onedakine; I was hoping to get up to the standard 606 rpm so 6,000, is that correct? I would be happy with any where near 5,000 though as I'm not aiming for all out top end power, if I can comfortably get to "modern motorway speeds" (with the gearing I'm running it would be around 3,200rpm in 5th or 4th auto) and sit at that I'd be happy. My 200tdi runs a ve pump and thats governed at 4,750rpm so I thought that may be achievable but maybe not on a 6cyl.
Mario; the pump is off a Cummins lorry engine I think… its currently sitting on a chassis with gearbox gone in a shed so I'm not even sure what it used to be without more investigation but for the money for a tweaked M pump this may be pointless anyway as the money I would have to spend to the the VE pump reconditioned and upgraded here in Ireland would buy a new M pump from Dieselmeken I would expect.
Hario; I am planning a complete rebuild of a 90, using V8 engine mounts and 4HP22EH gearbox, and this conversion kit:
http://www.smt.nu/default.asp?Expand=4&Display=3
The v8 drive system can be bought for aprox. £500 from an MOT failure discovery 1, the chassis mounts and galvanising would be aprox £400 and after that it would just be usual rebuild costs, depending on how far I go and how much I replace I'd be looking at around £3-4000.
All in all I'd have a OM606 powered Auto defender for aprox £8,000 with a completely reconditioned drive line etc.
Thats the general plan, the details, such as the injector pump, are still to be finalised… hence this thread
Mat
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I think the pump could be modded for high rpm if the person knows what they are doing. Will it be as good at high rpm as an inline pump? Probably not, but better than a stock VE if you go that route
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
OM603(606) stock M pump is the ultimate solution, one of the things that gives these engines the potential. With stock 603 turbo pump and a little tweak you would get around 180-200hp, with 606 elements swapped in it would be close to 300. Stock 606 doesn't like to rev to 6000, there is not much power above 5000rpms. But if you want, with big elements it will make decent power even above 6000
Electronically governed M would be the real knockout, but it would mean more costs.Before I got my first OM engine, I had a beemer diesel with VE pump. I rebuilt it with larger distributor head, scratched my head while building appropriate governor and had to mess with floating distributor head springs etc.
There is just no point going to VE route. The 6-cyl and VE is bad mix for high rpms, the internal loads of the pump become quite massive with larger distributor, and for high power the injection duration becomes too long. Cummins is a low-revving DI engine, using such cam plate for IDI 606 wouldn't work. If a pump rebuild is required anyway, why bother fitting a foreign pump which would, at the best, be almost as good as the worst tuned M pump.
OM603(606) stock M pump is the ultimate solution, one of the things that gives these engines the potential. With stock 603 turbo pump and a little tweak you would get around 180-200hp, with 606 elements swapped in it would be close to 300. Stock 606 doesn't like to rev to 6000, there is not much power above 5000rpms. But if you want, with big elements it will make decent power even above 6000 Electronically governed M would be the real knockout, but it would mean more costs.
Before I got my first OM engine, I had a beemer diesel with VE pump. I rebuilt it with larger distributor head, scratched my head while building appropriate governor and had to mess with floating distributor head springs etc.
TBH I'm not honestly looking for anything near 6,000rpm… I just thought thats what the 606 was governed to. If I had 4800-5000 I'd be more than happy.
Dare I say it, but I was also looking at the VGT/VNT route, for low down torque, and still keeping the power up around the 200hp mark. I'm not going to have space for a Holset I wouldn't think and for the power I'm looking for it just seems overkill, which is why I was thinking about the VGT off a sprinter etc.
I'm looking to build the car I'm hopefully going to drive for the next 30-40 years so I'm going to do it right the first time and not think about it after that!!
300hp sounds amazing but the drive train would be under serious stress I would suspect… what kind of torque figures would you be looking at with 603 pump, 606 elements and stock turbo at 300hp?
Cheers
Mat
That answers that so
TBH I'm not honestly looking for anything near 6,000rpm… I just thought thats what the 606 was governed to. If I had 4800-5000 I'd be more than happy.
Dare I say it, but I was also looking at the VGT/VNT route, for low down torque, and still keeping the power up around the 200hp mark. I'm not going to have space for a Holset I wouldn't think and for the power I'm looking for it just seems overkill, which is why I was thinking about the VGT off a sprinter etc.
I'm looking to build the car I'm hopefully going to drive for the next 30-40 years so I'm going to do it right the first time and not think about it after that!!
300hp sounds amazing but the drive train would be under serious stress I would suspect… what kind of torque figures would you be looking at with 603 pump, 606 elements and stock turbo at 300hp?
Cheers
Mat
I have a lot of experience with these pumps, in my opion... Imposable to get one to spin 6k rpm on #2 diesel and not have it seize on your first run.
Many people have dropped alot of $ on these pumps and found the hard way that if rpm's is what you need.. VE is not the answer.
Easy to sell tho.
Sounds like you got a pretty cool project!
'80 300td na, 617A swap in progress (latest diesel project)
12valve cummins powered stuper duty
w/mechanically actuated VGT and 5x14's New to mbz's... got a lot of readin to do.
Yep, I have several ve's off of first gen cmmins 12valve engines.
I have a lot of experience with these pumps, in my opion... Imposable to get one to spin 6k rpm on #2 diesel and not have it seize on your first run.
Many people have dropped alot of $ on these pumps and found the hard way that if rpm's is what you need.. VE is not the answer.
Easy to sell tho.
Sounds like you got a pretty cool project!
'80 300td na, 617A swap in progress (latest diesel project)
12valve cummins powered stuper duty
w/mechanically actuated VGT and 5x14's New to mbz's... got a lot of readin to do.
(11-24-2013, 04:11 PM)matfield In real world terms, taking into account reliability and longevity, how far could you realistically puts a VE pump? 4,000? 3,500? 5,000?
I've put the idea to bed now, I'll stick with trying to find a 603 turbo pump, but just out of curiosity.
Cheers
Mat
The VE for 6 cylinders... I wouldn't run one with a gsk spring past 3800, but one could put in a 4200 in it and just not rev it that high.
One of the major obstacles is in the fuel itself. Today's #2 diesel doesn't have the necessary lubricity any more for spinning rotary pumps at high rpm.
Of coarse you could add a lubricant to help, but it's just not the way to go in my option for your goals as a dependable DD.
I'm not knocking VE's at all. There a dynamic timing pump that increases timming as rpm's come up... Also fuel inlet pressure advances timing.
So if you have a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator, when boost comes up, fuel pressure increases, advances timing a little more.
Inline pumps are static timing only, but are much more durable, can handle high rpm, and are capable of fueling much, much more than a rotary pump.
'80 300td na, 617A swap in progress (latest diesel project)
12valve cummins powered stuper duty
w/mechanically actuated VGT and 5x14's New to mbz's... got a lot of readin to do.
(11-24-2013, 04:11 PM)matfield In real world terms, taking into account reliability and longevity, how far could you realistically puts a VE pump? 4,000? 3,500? 5,000?
I've put the idea to bed now, I'll stick with trying to find a 603 turbo pump, but just out of curiosity.
Cheers
Mat
The VE for 6 cylinders... I wouldn't run one with a gsk spring past 3800, but one could put in a 4200 in it and just not rev it that high.
One of the major obstacles is in the fuel itself. Today's #2 diesel doesn't have the necessary lubricity any more for spinning rotary pumps at high rpm.
Of coarse you could add a lubricant to help, but it's just not the way to go in my option for your goals as a dependable DD.
I'm not knocking VE's at all. There a dynamic timing pump that increases timming as rpm's come up... Also fuel inlet pressure advances timing.
So if you have a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator, when boost comes up, fuel pressure increases, advances timing a little more.
Inline pumps are static timing only, but are much more durable, can handle high rpm, and are capable of fueling much, much more than a rotary pump.
'80 300td na, 617A swap in progress (latest diesel project)
12valve cummins powered stuper duty
w/mechanically actuated VGT and 5x14's New to mbz's... got a lot of readin to do.
You can have 300hp and still not more than 400Nm tq, if wanted and pump built that way. Mid-range tq will become much higher if not limited.
If you want vnt, go for the big ones. Those off a 4- or 5-cyl engine will only choke 606. I wouldn't consider smaller than BMW/Audi 2260v or MB 2359v.
For max realibility and simplicity, forget both VE and vnt. IMO they have no pros, only cons for this. Simplicity may not look attractive on paper, but in practice it rocks. All the hair I've lost has been due to both those
That said, I'm putting a vnt on both 605s I have. Both only because they are of the proper size and cheap, would have bought non-vnt if those would have been available as easily.
Stock turbo won't get you past the stock 177hp sensibly.
You can have 300hp and still not more than 400Nm tq, if wanted and pump built that way. Mid-range tq will become much higher if not limited.
If you want vnt, go for the big ones. Those off a 4- or 5-cyl engine will only choke 606. I wouldn't consider smaller than BMW/Audi 2260v or MB 2359v.
For max realibility and simplicity, forget both VE and vnt. IMO they have no pros, only cons for this. Simplicity may not look attractive on paper, but in practice it rocks. All the hair I've lost has been due to both those
That said, I'm putting a vnt on both 605s I have. Both only because they are of the proper size and cheap, would have bought non-vnt if those would have been available as easily.
If I could get to 200hp I'd be happy. I can look at saving for diffs, halfshafts etc after that and possibly look at going closer to the 300 mark or even further depending on what's available.
I'm putting to bed the VE pump idea and the VNT. I'm going a little off topic now but what turbo would people recommend for 200hp, or would I be better to build it once and adjust the boost for more fuel later, and get a bigger turbo to start with.
Thanks guys!
Thanks for that guys… 300hp would be amazing but I'd end up spending more than ten times more than the engine is costing me on half shafts, drive flanges and diffs.
If I could get to 200hp I'd be happy. I can look at saving for diffs, halfshafts etc after that and possibly look at going closer to the 300 mark or even further depending on what's available.
I'm putting to bed the VE pump idea and the VNT. I'm going a little off topic now but what turbo would people recommend for 200hp, or would I be better to build it once and adjust the boost for more fuel later, and get a bigger turbo to start with.
Thanks guys!
(11-27-2013, 03:18 PM)matfield or would I be better to build it once and adjust the boost for more fuel later
Build it and see if and how it runs. A 177BHP Landrover is fun already.
Later you can still do some tweaks to reach 200BHP or do much more expensive things.
Gruß
Volker
I agree with you, defenders are a bit too fragile stock so going mad on the power would cost you a fair bit so it didnt break.
Using the stock electronic controlled pump is a difficult prospect. Have a search on the forum for that one. 603 pump with the original electric pump 6mm elements and the pump turned up along with a bit more boost on the stock turbo will get you 200bhp easy. You can then see where you want to go after that.
I agree with you, defenders are a bit too fragile stock so going mad on the power would cost you a fair bit so it didnt break.
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