'94 E300: NA OM606 injection pump questions...
'94 E300: NA OM606 injection pump questions...
Anywho - on the radiator support in front of the mighty OM606 there was a sticker outlining the vacuum system with a diagram and nice labels. I took particular notice to one entry on that list that was labeled as: "Injection pump with manifold pressure compensation" (not verbatim - I'm going on memory...).
My instant reaction was: SWEET! Plumb up a turbo to this NA beast and feed the injection pump some boost and she'll enrich the a/f ratio accordingly. However, I also thought that it simply couldn't be this easy - COULD IT?!?!?!?! :o
It was very refreshing to see that OM606 with nearly no electrical components at all on it. No drive-by-wire, very little emissions goodies, etc. I kept looking for the transmission throttle valve cable...but never could locate it.
Your thoughts, comments are appreciated.
I liked the car a lot and it would be replacing my '98 VW New Beetle TDI as my daily driver if I could make it all happen.
The newer ('98/'99) E300 turbodiesels with the OM606 would make for a VERY nice daily driver - but I'm not sure how much the fuel could be cranked up on one of those since the IP and automatic transmission is heavily controlled by electronics.
Thanks,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-01-2008, 02:53 PM #1Last night - I went after work to check out and drive a '94 (11/93) E300 that was for sale locally. This was the first time I've ever had the chance to look at a Merc of any kind up close and personal - scary, I know. I don't know why I waited so many years - these cars look like they're built VERY well. It actually looked more like a 1/2-ton pickup truck under the hood - not a car. VERY strong contrast to the VW TDI's that I've to owned/worked on.
Anywho - on the radiator support in front of the mighty OM606 there was a sticker outlining the vacuum system with a diagram and nice labels. I took particular notice to one entry on that list that was labeled as: "Injection pump with manifold pressure compensation" (not verbatim - I'm going on memory...).
My instant reaction was: SWEET! Plumb up a turbo to this NA beast and feed the injection pump some boost and she'll enrich the a/f ratio accordingly. However, I also thought that it simply couldn't be this easy - COULD IT?!?!?!?! :o
It was very refreshing to see that OM606 with nearly no electrical components at all on it. No drive-by-wire, very little emissions goodies, etc. I kept looking for the transmission throttle valve cable...but never could locate it.
Your thoughts, comments are appreciated.
I liked the car a lot and it would be replacing my '98 VW New Beetle TDI as my daily driver if I could make it all happen.
The newer ('98/'99) E300 turbodiesels with the OM606 would make for a VERY nice daily driver - but I'm not sure how much the fuel could be cranked up on one of those since the IP and automatic transmission is heavily controlled by electronics.
Thanks,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I don't know much about the newer diesels, but the old NAs had a similar device that reduced the rack travel above sea-level to reduce smoke. You could send a boost signal from a turbo to it, but with out other changes you would not gain any power at sea-level, but would gain some power at higher elevations.
bgkast I don't know much about the newer diesels, but the old NAs had a similar device that reduced the rack travel above sea-level to reduce smoke. You could send a boost signal from a turbo to it, but with out other changes you would not gain any power at sea-level, but would gain some power at higher elevations.
That's what I was thinking - as a result of its original purpose that device (AFC? Aneroid Fuel Control) might not do exactly what I want. The level of enrichment might not be anywhere near what an IP off a turbo'd engine is capable of.
With a turbo providing boost at the intake manifold - the IP would think it is WAY below sea level and should provide some enrichment...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-02-2008, 08:53 AM #3bgkast I don't know much about the newer diesels, but the old NAs had a similar device that reduced the rack travel above sea-level to reduce smoke. You could send a boost signal from a turbo to it, but with out other changes you would not gain any power at sea-level, but would gain some power at higher elevations.
That's what I was thinking - as a result of its original purpose that device (AFC? Aneroid Fuel Control) might not do exactly what I want. The level of enrichment might not be anywhere near what an IP off a turbo'd engine is capable of.
With a turbo providing boost at the intake manifold - the IP would think it is WAY below sea level and should provide some enrichment...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Seriously, at sea level I would think the IP is giving all the fuel it can with out other tweaks. Again I don't know much about the 606, but that is how I understand the earlier non-turbo engines work.
I don't think it's designed to run under water. :mrgreen:
Seriously, at sea level I would think the IP is giving all the fuel it can with out other tweaks. Again I don't know much about the 606, but that is how I understand the earlier non-turbo engines work.
I'd love to have a look-see at an OM606's IP - off the engine. It would be relatively easy to see how much that AFC (for lack of a better Mercedes term...) can move the rack. I could barely see the IP on that OM606 the other night - it was buried under the intake manifold - which had an interesting valve on it for making the most of the very long runners under different RPM/load scenarios.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-02-2008, 09:42 AM #5Indeed - there aren't too many places on earth where the atmospheric pressure could be considered "below sea level". That's where our little friend forced induction kicks in.
I'd love to have a look-see at an OM606's IP - off the engine. It would be relatively easy to see how much that AFC (for lack of a better Mercedes term...) can move the rack. I could barely see the IP on that OM606 the other night - it was buried under the intake manifold - which had an interesting valve on it for making the most of the very long runners under different RPM/load scenarios.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Tuning them is a simple chip swap in the computer. Its easier than the mechanical engines but nowhere near as cheap.
Here is a view of the pump:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9uqm2nsgE">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9uqm2nsgE</a><!-- m -->
It is possible to swap the pump for the mechanical models used on earlier engines but it would freak out the on board computers, especially the transmission, since they are all tied together through the CAN bus.
ForcedInduction
05-02-2008, 04:33 PM
#6
All OM606's have a computer controlled injection pump except for the first 1995 model year. There is no mechanical altitude compensation, its a barometric pressure sensor inside the computer.
Tuning them is a simple chip swap in the computer. Its easier than the mechanical engines but nowhere near as cheap.
Here is a view of the pump:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9uqm2nsgE">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9uqm2nsgE</a><!-- m -->
It is possible to swap the pump for the mechanical models used on earlier engines but it would freak out the on board computers, especially the transmission, since they are all tied together through the CAN bus.
I wasn't sure if the '96, '97 NA OM606's in the W210 chassis cars had mechanical or electronic IPs. Any idea if the NA and turbo'd OM606's in the W210 chassis use the same injection pump? I've seen those inline/electronic pumps before - they look just like a normal M or MW pump - except for the governor housing's smooth appearance and just the single multi-conductor wiring harness coming out the backside. Lest we forget the electronic shutdown towards the front of the pump...
I want to get away from electronics if I can. Case in point - my daily driven '98 VW NB TDI. It can't be flash tuned via the OBD-II port because it's such an early A4 chassis TDI. So I'd have to ship the ECM out for soldering in a chip socket, etc. Blah.
The Cummins ISB (and ISBe) take to external tuning 'boxes', bigger turbos and larger injector nozzles like fish to water - but there isn't much of anything out there other than a chip (~40hp increase, IIRC) for an electronic OM606. The Cummins ISB and ISBe are speed density and don't have MAF sensors - this is a big help for sure. If I ever wanted to install larger injector nozzles and a bigger turbo on a W210 chassis OM606 (NA or turbo), who knows what would happen...it's anyone's guess if the ECM could manage things or not.
The W210 chassis is MUCH more refined than the W124 - as it should be...but they scare me a bit in terms of all the electronics. I've yet to get a clear answer from anyone as to whether my fears are justified or not. The W124's only get around 30mpg with the NA OM606 - but the W210 with the turbo OM606 is closer to 37mpg...not an insignificant jump in mileage. By chance would the W124 and turbo'd OM603 get 37mpg? That's something I'd really love to find out.
I'd love a W210, but the tradeoff of electronics/refinement VS. dead nuts reliability and simplicity of the W124 is one that I'm agonizing over.
Thanks for your input!
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-05-2008, 10:44 AM #7That was going to be one of my next questions...
I wasn't sure if the '96, '97 NA OM606's in the W210 chassis cars had mechanical or electronic IPs. Any idea if the NA and turbo'd OM606's in the W210 chassis use the same injection pump? I've seen those inline/electronic pumps before - they look just like a normal M or MW pump - except for the governor housing's smooth appearance and just the single multi-conductor wiring harness coming out the backside. Lest we forget the electronic shutdown towards the front of the pump...
I want to get away from electronics if I can. Case in point - my daily driven '98 VW NB TDI. It can't be flash tuned via the OBD-II port because it's such an early A4 chassis TDI. So I'd have to ship the ECM out for soldering in a chip socket, etc. Blah.
The Cummins ISB (and ISBe) take to external tuning 'boxes', bigger turbos and larger injector nozzles like fish to water - but there isn't much of anything out there other than a chip (~40hp increase, IIRC) for an electronic OM606. The Cummins ISB and ISBe are speed density and don't have MAF sensors - this is a big help for sure. If I ever wanted to install larger injector nozzles and a bigger turbo on a W210 chassis OM606 (NA or turbo), who knows what would happen...it's anyone's guess if the ECM could manage things or not.
The W210 chassis is MUCH more refined than the W124 - as it should be...but they scare me a bit in terms of all the electronics. I've yet to get a clear answer from anyone as to whether my fears are justified or not. The W124's only get around 30mpg with the NA OM606 - but the W210 with the turbo OM606 is closer to 37mpg...not an insignificant jump in mileage. By chance would the W124 and turbo'd OM603 get 37mpg? That's something I'd really love to find out.
I'd love a W210, but the tradeoff of electronics/refinement VS. dead nuts reliability and simplicity of the W124 is one that I'm agonizing over.
Thanks for your input!
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
ForcedInduction
05-05-2008, 01:05 PM
#8
The MAF is only to monitor emissions performance (EGR), it does not use it to control fuel quantity.
ForcedInduction The MAF is only to monitor emissions performance (EGR), it does not use it to control fuel quantity.
Duly noted - thank you!
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-05-2008, 01:20 PM #9ForcedInduction The MAF is only to monitor emissions performance (EGR), it does not use it to control fuel quantity.
Duly noted - thank you!
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I'm no computer whiz but what I have skimmed of the information on the MEGASQUIRT engine management system with it's 'freeware' software and usergroup support (alot of whom helped develop all of the software and ARE computer whiz's) and I see huge potential for us dieseltuners.....hmmmm, anyone want to start the DieselTuners Kartel?? I'm number one...lol :lol: :mrgreen:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.megasquirt.info/">http://www.megasquirt.info/</a><!-- m -->
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@
Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-09-2008, 03:06 PM #10In regards to the electronics side of things, alot of hot-rodders were and are still leary of electronics, but I say we need to embrace this new technology as we have no choice that is the present and future of the diesel engine, and they reeeeeaaaallllly improve and multiply the potential for ease of tuneability, performance, etc., etc.
I'm no computer whiz but what I have skimmed of the information on the MEGASQUIRT engine management system with it's 'freeware' software and usergroup support (alot of whom helped develop all of the software and ARE computer whiz's) and I see huge potential for us dieseltuners.....hmmmm, anyone want to start the DieselTuners Kartel?? I'm number one...lol :lol: :mrgreen:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.megasquirt.info/">http://www.megasquirt.info/</a><!-- m -->
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
For an electronically controlled mechanical injection pump (on the '96-'99 OM606) - I'm not convinced that the effort of going to a full standalone (or piggyback) ECM like megasquirt would be worth it. If someone could burn a chip that would work with larger injector nozzles and a larger turbo - that would be about all you'd need to crank up an OM606. The tuning would be a bit coarse compared to having the ability to fine tune the fueling map, however.
Based on what I've seen - all the electronic OM606 pumps have that a normal M or MW IP doesn't is a servo motor controlled fuel rack instead of the traditional mechanical governor. No atmospheric (manifold pressure) aneroid fuel control, no timing control, etc. The ECM for those engines just decide where to move the rack based on the same basic sort of operational characteristics that the mechanical system would; the only difference being that the electronic control is more precise and better able to respond quickly to changes...and includes (probably) ambient air temp and coolant temp.
Megasquirt is a great idea for gassers (turbo and NA) - but it isn't quite there yet for diesels. There are standalone ECM's for the GM/Isuzu 6.6L Duramax and some still in Beta testing for the 5.9L (and presumably the 6.7L) Cummins ISBe. All three of these engines have common-rail injection.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-10-2008, 08:39 AM #11That's fine and dandy for a common-rail injection where you really can take advantage of and exploit the benefits of that system. Add or delete injection events, alter the timing to suit your needs, mess with rail pressure, mess with injection event duration, etc.
For an electronically controlled mechanical injection pump (on the '96-'99 OM606) - I'm not convinced that the effort of going to a full standalone (or piggyback) ECM like megasquirt would be worth it. If someone could burn a chip that would work with larger injector nozzles and a larger turbo - that would be about all you'd need to crank up an OM606. The tuning would be a bit coarse compared to having the ability to fine tune the fueling map, however.
Based on what I've seen - all the electronic OM606 pumps have that a normal M or MW IP doesn't is a servo motor controlled fuel rack instead of the traditional mechanical governor. No atmospheric (manifold pressure) aneroid fuel control, no timing control, etc. The ECM for those engines just decide where to move the rack based on the same basic sort of operational characteristics that the mechanical system would; the only difference being that the electronic control is more precise and better able to respond quickly to changes...and includes (probably) ambient air temp and coolant temp.
Megasquirt is a great idea for gassers (turbo and NA) - but it isn't quite there yet for diesels. There are standalone ECM's for the GM/Isuzu 6.6L Duramax and some still in Beta testing for the 5.9L (and presumably the 6.7L) Cummins ISBe. All three of these engines have common-rail injection.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset Megasquirt is a great idea for gassers (turbo and NA) - but it isn't quite there yet for diesels. There are standalone ECM's for the GM/Isuzu 6.6L Duramax and some still in Beta testing for the 5.9L (and presumably the 6.7L) Cummins ISBe. All three of these engines have common-rail injection.
When this system was created the same things were being said about the gasser industry, and the whole reason the creators of Megasquirt did what they did. We (dieseltuners) are now here at the very same development time with our engines, but the technology advancements since this 'crux' for the gassers has increased substancially. Making it quicker, faster, and easier for us to catch up. Alot of the software is pre-written, all that is needed, I think, is of course time investment to adapt what is already there instead of reinventing the wheel.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-10-2008, 10:28 AM #12HoleshotHolset Megasquirt is a great idea for gassers (turbo and NA) - but it isn't quite there yet for diesels. There are standalone ECM's for the GM/Isuzu 6.6L Duramax and some still in Beta testing for the 5.9L (and presumably the 6.7L) Cummins ISBe. All three of these engines have common-rail injection.
When this system was created the same things were being said about the gasser industry, and the whole reason the creators of Megasquirt did what they did. We (dieseltuners) are now here at the very same development time with our engines, but the technology advancements since this 'crux' for the gassers has increased substancially. Making it quicker, faster, and easier for us to catch up. Alot of the software is pre-written, all that is needed, I think, is of course time investment to adapt what is already there instead of reinventing the wheel.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE to see a common-rail/IDI engine...but it's a lot more complicated than just bolting on parts and tuning...and you're still dealing with the disadvantages of the IDI engine even after you've converted it to common-rail.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-10-2008, 06:25 PM #13I'd love to see this done - but I just don't see anyone undertaking the effort to do this.
Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE to see a common-rail/IDI engine...but it's a lot more complicated than just bolting on parts and tuning...and you're still dealing with the disadvantages of the IDI engine even after you've converted it to common-rail.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
2 Guest(s)
2 Guest(s)