Best bolt on Turbo Upgrade - OM606 with stock fuelling
Best bolt on Turbo Upgrade - OM606 with stock fuelling
04-28-2014, 12:38 PM
#1
The KKK K14 in my W140 S300 Turbodiesel has had better days, and I was wondering what bolt on turbo is the best upgrade for the 6mm elements.
The stock turbo must present a tremendous restriction to exhaust flow. I still find it amazingly small, almost lost bolted on the side of the OM606
Anything that has the 3 bolt flange, does not require allot of fabrication and is a bit more free breathing?
The title says everything!
The KKK K14 in my W140 S300 Turbodiesel has had better days, and I was wondering what bolt on turbo is the best upgrade for the 6mm elements.
The stock turbo must present a tremendous restriction to exhaust flow. I still find it amazingly small, almost lost bolted on the side of the OM606
Anything that has the 3 bolt flange, does not require allot of fabrication and is a bit more free breathing?
04-29-2014, 02:23 AM
#3
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I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
What is the bolt pattern. Audi have nice turbos in the 3.0tdi engines and they are all three bolt flanges.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
04-29-2014, 07:10 AM
#5
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Why? Boost controlled VNT works like a charm. Or vacuum if you prefer.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
04-29-2014, 09:06 AM
#7
(04-28-2014, 12:38 PM)Rallyus The title says everything!
The KKK K14 in my W140 S300 Turbodiesel has had better days, and I was wondering what bolt on turbo is the best upgrade for the 6mm elements.
The stock turbo must present a tremendous restriction to exhaust flow. I still find it amazingly small, almost lost bolted on the side of the OM606
Anything that has the 3 bolt flange, does not require allot of fabrication and is a bit more free breathing?
When you get a better turbo – don’t worry about the flange - Grind it off and get a shop to weld a new one on. Simple. Lots on the evil bay.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
maxypriest
04-29-2014, 09:06 AM #7(04-28-2014, 12:38 PM)Rallyus The title says everything!
The KKK K14 in my W140 S300 Turbodiesel has had better days, and I was wondering what bolt on turbo is the best upgrade for the 6mm elements.
The stock turbo must present a tremendous restriction to exhaust flow. I still find it amazingly small, almost lost bolted on the side of the OM606
Anything that has the 3 bolt flange, does not require allot of fabrication and is a bit more free breathing?
When you get a better turbo – don’t worry about the flange - Grind it off and get a shop to weld a new one on. Simple. Lots on the evil bay.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
04-29-2014, 11:25 AM
#8
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
With stock fueling you aren't going to get any more performance no matter what size turbo you bolt on. Sure you can put a turbo on with a bigger exhaust side (more free flowing in your terms) but it will take longer to spool and reduce performance at lower revs. The bigger turbo might produce more boost but without more fuel it won't increase power at all. You might actually find your ECU throws errors and reduces the fuel because it thinks something is wrong.
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
04-29-2014, 12:53 PM
#9
(04-29-2014, 11:25 AM)Mark_M With stock fueling you aren't going to get any more performance no matter what size turbo you bolt on. Sure you can put a turbo on with a bigger exhaust side (more free flowing in your terms) but it will take longer to spool and reduce performance at lower revs. The bigger turbo might produce more boost but without more fuel it won't increase power at all. You might actually find your ECU throws errors and reduces the fuel because it thinks something is wrong.
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
Thanks but I disagree!
A carefully sized VGT or VNT Turbo will do wonders for low end torque, and also improve breathing at high rpm's.
The fuelling will be taken care of later, but since this is THE LUXURY sedan, I'm just looking for a bit extra power to take something away from the 2.1 tons of car.
What do you all think of the Garret GT20P ?
(04-29-2014, 11:25 AM)Mark_M With stock fueling you aren't going to get any more performance no matter what size turbo you bolt on. Sure you can put a turbo on with a bigger exhaust side (more free flowing in your terms) but it will take longer to spool and reduce performance at lower revs. The bigger turbo might produce more boost but without more fuel it won't increase power at all. You might actually find your ECU throws errors and reduces the fuel because it thinks something is wrong.
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
Thanks but I disagree!
A carefully sized VGT or VNT Turbo will do wonders for low end torque, and also improve breathing at high rpm's.
The fuelling will be taken care of later, but since this is THE LUXURY sedan, I'm just looking for a bit extra power to take something away from the 2.1 tons of car.
What do you all think of the Garret GT20P ?
04-29-2014, 06:32 PM
#10
(04-29-2014, 12:53 PM)RallyusI tend to agree that a freer flowing VNT would bring on boost earlier and reduce upper end exhaust restriction. No opinion on the best turbo, but I'd love to piggy back on the work of others. I even have a spare factory exhaust manual to work with.(04-29-2014, 11:25 AM)Mark_M With stock fueling you aren't going to get any more performance no matter what size turbo you bolt on. Sure you can put a turbo on with a bigger exhaust side (more free flowing in your terms) but it will take longer to spool and reduce performance at lower revs. The bigger turbo might produce more boost but without more fuel it won't increase power at all. You might actually find your ECU throws errors and reduces the fuel because it thinks something is wrong.
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
Thanks but I disagree!
A carefully sized VGT or VNT Turbo will do wonders for low end torque, and also improve breathing at high rpm's.
The fuelling will be taken care of later, but since this is THE LUXURY sedan, I'm just looking for a bit extra power to take something away from the 2.1 tons of car.
What do you all think of the Garret GT20P ?
And, about the weight complaint: the S is still 1800lbs lighter than my G. 3000lbs lighter when loaded for an adventure with people and gear. Never-mind the aerodynamics.
This post was last modified: 04-29-2014, 06:59 PM by AlanMcR.
(04-29-2014, 12:53 PM)RallyusI tend to agree that a freer flowing VNT would bring on boost earlier and reduce upper end exhaust restriction. No opinion on the best turbo, but I'd love to piggy back on the work of others. I even have a spare factory exhaust manual to work with.(04-29-2014, 11:25 AM)Mark_M With stock fueling you aren't going to get any more performance no matter what size turbo you bolt on. Sure you can put a turbo on with a bigger exhaust side (more free flowing in your terms) but it will take longer to spool and reduce performance at lower revs. The bigger turbo might produce more boost but without more fuel it won't increase power at all. You might actually find your ECU throws errors and reduces the fuel because it thinks something is wrong.
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
Thanks but I disagree!
A carefully sized VGT or VNT Turbo will do wonders for low end torque, and also improve breathing at high rpm's.
The fuelling will be taken care of later, but since this is THE LUXURY sedan, I'm just looking for a bit extra power to take something away from the 2.1 tons of car.
What do you all think of the Garret GT20P ?
And, about the weight complaint: the S is still 1800lbs lighter than my G. 3000lbs lighter when loaded for an adventure with people and gear. Never-mind the aerodynamics.
04-30-2014, 08:51 AM
#11
(04-29-2014, 06:32 PM)AlanMcR(04-29-2014, 12:53 PM)RallyusI tend to agree that a freer flowing VNT would bring on boost earlier and reduce upper end exhaust restriction. No opinion on the best turbo, but I'd love to piggy back on the work of others. I even have a spare factory exhaust manual to work with.(04-29-2014, 11:25 AM)Mark_M With stock fueling you aren't going to get any more performance no matter what size turbo you bolt on. Sure you can put a turbo on with a bigger exhaust side (more free flowing in your terms) but it will take longer to spool and reduce performance at lower revs. The bigger turbo might produce more boost but without more fuel it won't increase power at all. You might actually find your ECU throws errors and reduces the fuel because it thinks something is wrong.
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
Thanks but I disagree!
A carefully sized VGT or VNT Turbo will do wonders for low end torque, and also improve breathing at high rpm's.
The fuelling will be taken care of later, but since this is THE LUXURY sedan, I'm just looking for a bit extra power to take something away from the 2.1 tons of car.
What do you all think of the Garret GT20P ?
And, about the weight complaint: the S is still 1800lbs lighter than my G. 3000lbs lighter when loaded for an adventure with people and gear. Never-mind the aerodynamics.
I'm sorry but... 1800lbs is 800kg which means that your G Wagen has a weight of 2.9 tons or 2900 Kg, which isn't true.
The G Wagen equipped with the OM606.964 has a weight of 2.2 tons, meaning that it weights only 100 kg more than the W140.
(04-29-2014, 06:32 PM)AlanMcR(04-29-2014, 12:53 PM)RallyusI tend to agree that a freer flowing VNT would bring on boost earlier and reduce upper end exhaust restriction. No opinion on the best turbo, but I'd love to piggy back on the work of others. I even have a spare factory exhaust manual to work with.(04-29-2014, 11:25 AM)Mark_M With stock fueling you aren't going to get any more performance no matter what size turbo you bolt on. Sure you can put a turbo on with a bigger exhaust side (more free flowing in your terms) but it will take longer to spool and reduce performance at lower revs. The bigger turbo might produce more boost but without more fuel it won't increase power at all. You might actually find your ECU throws errors and reduces the fuel because it thinks something is wrong.
Change the fueling and a whole different world opens up to you.
Thanks but I disagree!
A carefully sized VGT or VNT Turbo will do wonders for low end torque, and also improve breathing at high rpm's.
The fuelling will be taken care of later, but since this is THE LUXURY sedan, I'm just looking for a bit extra power to take something away from the 2.1 tons of car.
What do you all think of the Garret GT20P ?
And, about the weight complaint: the S is still 1800lbs lighter than my G. 3000lbs lighter when loaded for an adventure with people and gear. Never-mind the aerodynamics.
I'm sorry but... 1800lbs is 800kg which means that your G Wagen has a weight of 2.9 tons or 2900 Kg, which isn't true.
The G Wagen equipped with the OM606.964 has a weight of 2.2 tons, meaning that it weights only 100 kg more than the W140.
04-30-2014, 10:45 AM
#12
But I don't think your thinking diesel here. A diesel will only boost to the amount of fuel you're supplying. I have tested this many years ago. I had an Audi 80 1.9tdi with a woopping 90hp. The turbo failed so I changed it for the turbo from an Audi 100 2.5tdi, welded the wastegate shut and drove the car from Sweden to middle of Italy (with a car transport trailer behind) and back. No more power, no overboosting, no nothing... It just run as stock.
This is also why people say (sometimes here on the forum) that there car only boosts 2.0bar, then they put some more fuel in to it and woopydoopie they boost 2.5bar or even 3.0bar.
Why a wastegate on a diesel then? You need to be able to control the boost to achieve maximum power. And to let the turbo boost till the fuel is out is meaning a cool EGT, to get maximum power you need to tune in the EGT.
You might get a little better down low torque, but I think not. Down there there is no fuel to spin your turbo, vgt/vnt or not. And on the top end... No, don't think so either...
But try, the GT2556V is cheap on eBay.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
If there is a vacuum controlled boost solenoid controlling the stock turbo you can try to plug it in to the new turbo (if vacuum controlled), might work, might fail. A more easy way is t have a boost controlled vnt/vgt actuator and just manually control it outside of the ECU-jurisdiction. Might throw a DTC or two, might not...
But I don't think your thinking diesel here. A diesel will only boost to the amount of fuel you're supplying. I have tested this many years ago. I had an Audi 80 1.9tdi with a woopping 90hp. The turbo failed so I changed it for the turbo from an Audi 100 2.5tdi, welded the wastegate shut and drove the car from Sweden to middle of Italy (with a car transport trailer behind) and back. No more power, no overboosting, no nothing... It just run as stock.
This is also why people say (sometimes here on the forum) that there car only boosts 2.0bar, then they put some more fuel in to it and woopydoopie they boost 2.5bar or even 3.0bar.
Why a wastegate on a diesel then? You need to be able to control the boost to achieve maximum power. And to let the turbo boost till the fuel is out is meaning a cool EGT, to get maximum power you need to tune in the EGT.
You might get a little better down low torque, but I think not. Down there there is no fuel to spin your turbo, vgt/vnt or not. And on the top end... No, don't think so either...
But try, the GT2556V is cheap on eBay.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
04-30-2014, 12:46 PM
#13
I have messed around with bigger turbos in the past with the same idea about allowing more exhaust flow must mean more power. It doesn't sadly, it merely reduces low end power and equals the same at the top end.
But have a crack at it....
Duncansport
04-30-2014, 12:46 PM #13STD needs an disclaimer on the engine fourm... "For more power you need more fuel"
I have messed around with bigger turbos in the past with the same idea about allowing more exhaust flow must mean more power. It doesn't sadly, it merely reduces low end power and equals the same at the top end.
But have a crack at it....
04-30-2014, 01:37 PM
#14
We are just discussing the turbo here, not fuelling.
Everybody knows that the K14 is a huge restriction on the exhaust side of an OM606.
If we were talking about an OM603, ok... fuelling is on the limit of the 5,5 elements and there is still turbo to spare.
But since my engine needs a new turbo, and since I'm increasing fuelling down the line with a new eprom or a resistor or other solution (aiming for 220 soft bhp, so the 6mm elements are enough) I might as well try a different solution for a Turbo.
Anyways... the stock Om606 produces black smoke if floored at low rpm, so there is more fuel than boost on those conditions...
It's ok.
We are just discussing the turbo here, not fuelling.
Everybody knows that the K14 is a huge restriction on the exhaust side of an OM606.
If we were talking about an OM603, ok... fuelling is on the limit of the 5,5 elements and there is still turbo to spare.
But since my engine needs a new turbo, and since I'm increasing fuelling down the line with a new eprom or a resistor or other solution (aiming for 220 soft bhp, so the 6mm elements are enough) I might as well try a different solution for a Turbo.
Anyways... the stock Om606 produces black smoke if floored at low rpm, so there is more fuel than boost on those conditions...
04-30-2014, 07:47 PM
#16
(04-30-2014, 03:11 PM)Rallyus The "fuelling is everything" moto is wrong, very wrong.
Could you explain what's wrong with that motto?
I'm not disagreeing with you - its just a very emphatic statement you made, without anything to support it.
Please educate us.
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
(04-30-2014, 03:11 PM)Rallyus The "fuelling is everything" moto is wrong, very wrong.
Could you explain what's wrong with that motto?
I'm not disagreeing with you - its just a very emphatic statement you made, without anything to support it.
Please educate us.
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
04-30-2014, 11:09 PM
#17
(04-30-2014, 07:47 PM)CRD4x4Well one obvious counterpoint is that a severe exhaust restiction will kill power. Also, the ECU will not inject fuel unless sufficient air is available. The K14 Turbo restricts exhaust severely (thumb sized opening). It also spools poorly at the very low end. A properly sized VNT would address both issues. Sure the engine won't produce much more power at 1500rpm, but you won't have to wait for the power to arrive so it will feel peppier.(04-30-2014, 03:11 PM)Rallyus The "fuelling is everything" moto is wrong, very wrong.
Could you explain what's wrong with that motto?
I'm not disagreeing with you - its just a very emphatic statement you made, without anything to support it.
Please educate us.
(04-30-2014, 07:47 PM)CRD4x4Well one obvious counterpoint is that a severe exhaust restiction will kill power. Also, the ECU will not inject fuel unless sufficient air is available. The K14 Turbo restricts exhaust severely (thumb sized opening). It also spools poorly at the very low end. A properly sized VNT would address both issues. Sure the engine won't produce much more power at 1500rpm, but you won't have to wait for the power to arrive so it will feel peppier.(04-30-2014, 03:11 PM)Rallyus The "fuelling is everything" moto is wrong, very wrong.
Could you explain what's wrong with that motto?
I'm not disagreeing with you - its just a very emphatic statement you made, without anything to support it.
Please educate us.
05-01-2014, 02:29 AM
#18
(04-30-2014, 11:09 PM)AlanMcR(04-30-2014, 07:47 PM)CRD4x4Well one obvious counterpoint is that a severe exhaust restiction will kill power. Also, the ECU will not inject fuel unless sufficient air is available. The K14 Turbo restricts exhaust severely (thumb sized opening). It also spools poorly at the very low end. A properly sized VNT would address both issues. Sure the engine won't produce much more power at 1500rpm, but you won't have to wait for the power to arrive so it will feel peppier.(04-30-2014, 03:11 PM)Rallyus The "fuelling is everything" moto is wrong, very wrong.
Could you explain what's wrong with that motto?
I'm not disagreeing with you - its just a very emphatic statement you made, without anything to support it.
Please educate us.
That's correct!
(04-30-2014, 11:09 PM)AlanMcR(04-30-2014, 07:47 PM)CRD4x4Well one obvious counterpoint is that a severe exhaust restiction will kill power. Also, the ECU will not inject fuel unless sufficient air is available. The K14 Turbo restricts exhaust severely (thumb sized opening). It also spools poorly at the very low end. A properly sized VNT would address both issues. Sure the engine won't produce much more power at 1500rpm, but you won't have to wait for the power to arrive so it will feel peppier.(04-30-2014, 03:11 PM)Rallyus The "fuelling is everything" moto is wrong, very wrong.
Could you explain what's wrong with that motto?
I'm not disagreeing with you - its just a very emphatic statement you made, without anything to support it.
Please educate us.
That's correct!
05-01-2014, 06:45 AM
#19
The reason they are electronically controlled is because in certain scenarios such as 60-70mph steady cruise the vanes need to be wide open to reduce EMP.If you tied the vanes into a wastegate, then at steady cruize the boost would fall off and the vanes would close to their smallest position creating huge exhaust braking effect, and very bad economy.
The only solution I could come up with to this would be an exhuast manifold pressure referenced wastegate. I can't see how it wouldnt solve all problems?
Thoughts../ H.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
I like the idea of VGT, but there is an issue with control:
The reason they are electronically controlled is because in certain scenarios such as 60-70mph steady cruise the vanes need to be wide open to reduce EMP.If you tied the vanes into a wastegate, then at steady cruize the boost would fall off and the vanes would close to their smallest position creating huge exhaust braking effect, and very bad economy.
The only solution I could come up with to this would be an exhuast manifold pressure referenced wastegate. I can't see how it wouldnt solve all problems?
Thoughts../ H.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
05-01-2014, 11:49 PM
#20
(05-01-2014, 06:45 AM)Hario I like the idea of VGT, but there is an issue with control:
The reason they are electronically controlled is because in certain scenarios such as 60-70mph steady cruise the vanes need to be wide open to reduce EMP.If you tied the vanes into a wastegate, then at steady cruize the boost would fall off and the vanes would close to their smallest position creating huge exhaust braking effect, and very bad economy.
The only solution I could come up with to this would be an exhuast manifold pressure referenced wastegate. I can't see how it wouldnt solve all problems?
Thoughts../ H.
Yeah, but ths entire discussion is predicated on using the stock control system which is electronic. That system does regulate boost to the what is required for current operating conditions.
This post was last modified: 05-01-2014, 11:50 PM by AlanMcR.
(05-01-2014, 06:45 AM)Hario I like the idea of VGT, but there is an issue with control:
The reason they are electronically controlled is because in certain scenarios such as 60-70mph steady cruise the vanes need to be wide open to reduce EMP.If you tied the vanes into a wastegate, then at steady cruize the boost would fall off and the vanes would close to their smallest position creating huge exhaust braking effect, and very bad economy.
The only solution I could come up with to this would be an exhuast manifold pressure referenced wastegate. I can't see how it wouldnt solve all problems?
Thoughts../ H.
Yeah, but ths entire discussion is predicated on using the stock control system which is electronic. That system does regulate boost to the what is required for current operating conditions.
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