Whatever happened to AAZ injectors ?
Whatever happened to AAZ injectors ?
What was the verdict ?
I recall being offered a set here or there, but declined. I found some specs on them, and they appeared to be around 1/4" taller than "regular" nozzle holders. Not sure if the steel lines would accomodate the longer injectors? Also, not sure if the line-up of nozzles will fit inside the AAZ?
If anyone has a set, I would be interested in a trade or sale. Does anyone even have a set of five anymore ???
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
When I joined the forum, AAZs were being touted as the silver bullet in performance upgrades. Then, folks who got them, were trying to sell them.
What was the verdict ?
I recall being offered a set here or there, but declined. I found some specs on them, and they appeared to be around 1/4" taller than "regular" nozzle holders. Not sure if the steel lines would accomodate the longer injectors? Also, not sure if the line-up of nozzles will fit inside the AAZ?
If anyone has a set, I would be interested in a trade or sale. Does anyone even have a set of five anymore ???
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
The pumps that Dieselmeken is building are a better match IMOP for the AAZ injectors, as they deliver a lot more volume of fuel at a faster rate than any nozzles were designed for, so the pressure curve should be more in line with what both stages need to operate properly. I have looked into them to use with my 10mm MW pumps.
Plus, I understand that it takes special equipment (or skill to work without it) in order to set both primary and secondary pop pressures. I bet they use a higher volume and rate pump to set the pop pressures.
From what you were able to do with my injectors, I am confident you will be able to figure out how to set the AAZs properly.
It is my understanding that the AAZ (two stage) injectors require a very fast delivery pressure curve and a higher pressure pulse in order to get both stages to work. The VE pumps that supplied the AAZ injectors had a 12mm (+-) element, (not sure on the flow rate of the nozzle), and from what I can remember the secondary pop pressure spec is around 190 / 200 bar, so the pressure curve was much more aggressive than the 5.5mm elements MB uses. With the MB pump, the pressure / volume curves never “really” get into the secondary operation range, but rather just “tickles” it. The higher secondary pop pressure also has the resultant effect of retarding the injection timing when used with the MB pumps that are timed for 135 bar, and have a much slower delivery rate (and resultant slower pressure curve). Advancing the injection timing would make up for the higher pressure delay.
The pumps that Dieselmeken is building are a better match IMOP for the AAZ injectors, as they deliver a lot more volume of fuel at a faster rate than any nozzles were designed for, so the pressure curve should be more in line with what both stages need to operate properly. I have looked into them to use with my 10mm MW pumps.
Plus, I understand that it takes special equipment (or skill to work without it) in order to set both primary and secondary pop pressures. I bet they use a higher volume and rate pump to set the pop pressures.
From what you were able to do with my injectors, I am confident you will be able to figure out how to set the AAZs properly.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
I still have a set in my wagon. They seem to make the engine less noisy with both my stock altered IP and my Myna IP. Yes they are a bit taller- but I've got three extra sets of hard lines and I've tweaked one set which fits them just fine. I had a new set of 265 nozzles installed when I got them and had them set at 145 bar IIRC, I'd have to check my records to be sure. I can't really tell if they produce more power- I did not have the car dyno'd prior or after installation; the butt dyno said yes they do.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
(10-14-2014, 09:30 AM)MTUPower I still have a set in my wagon. They seem to make the engine less noisy with both my stock altered IP and my Myna IP. Yes they are a bit taller- but I've got three extra sets of hard lines and I've tweaked one set which fits them just fine. I had a new set of 265 nozzles installed when I got them and had them set at 145 bar IIRC, I'd have to check my records to be sure. I can't really tell if they produce more power- I did not have the car dyno'd prior or after installation; the butt dyno said yes they do.
So, less noise in stock and Myna IPs. Setting aside the dyno, what are your subjective observations overall? I apprecaite it's not "scientific" but subjective evaluations are pretty good leads, if you don't mind?
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
(10-14-2014, 09:30 AM)MTUPower I still have a set in my wagon. They seem to make the engine less noisy with both my stock altered IP and my Myna IP. Yes they are a bit taller- but I've got three extra sets of hard lines and I've tweaked one set which fits them just fine. I had a new set of 265 nozzles installed when I got them and had them set at 145 bar IIRC, I'd have to check my records to be sure. I can't really tell if they produce more power- I did not have the car dyno'd prior or after installation; the butt dyno said yes they do.
So, less noise in stock and Myna IPs. Setting aside the dyno, what are your subjective observations overall? I apprecaite it's not "scientific" but subjective evaluations are pretty good leads, if you don't mind?
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
(10-14-2014, 09:58 PM)Greazzer So, less noise in stock and Myna IPs. Setting aside the dyno, what are your subjective observations overall? I apprecaite it's not "scientific" but subjective evaluations are pretty good leads, if you don't mind?I think they give more power- but not a huge amount. 5-9 HP? I like them but it was a bitch finding 5 and then getting the nozzles done. I spent quite a bit of time + $ doing all that for not so much gain. If a set costs the same as stock injectors get them, if only a little more go for it. If alot more then nevermind.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
(10-14-2014, 09:58 PM)Greazzer So, less noise in stock and Myna IPs. Setting aside the dyno, what are your subjective observations overall? I apprecaite it's not "scientific" but subjective evaluations are pretty good leads, if you don't mind?I think they give more power- but not a huge amount. 5-9 HP? I like them but it was a bitch finding 5 and then getting the nozzles done. I spent quite a bit of time + $ doing all that for not so much gain. If a set costs the same as stock injectors get them, if only a little more go for it. If alot more then nevermind.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
Duncansport
10-16-2014, 07:55 AM #6It would be interesting to hear Dieselmeken weigh in on this. I gotta think that the up rated speed of delivery with upgrade element could take advantage of the AAZ nozzel....
(10-17-2014, 05:35 PM)yatzee AAZ injectors on which engine? only 617?Yeah- they came from VW's and they are a two stage which fits the 616/617.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Hope not to derail the thread but it seems solved.. Here comes my question about nozzles. Can I replace SD310 with SD314? From what I heard 314s are enchanced, lower noise and they flow a bit more. I can say these statements are true on standard swirl chabmer engine like BMW M51-quiter operation and noticeably more power without smoke. But OM605 chambers are quite different. Any opinions?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-22-2014, 03:12 PM #10The prechamber *should* make a quite a bit of turbulence. I imagine they would run just fine. No idea on power or smoothness.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
raysorenson
10-22-2014, 04:30 PM #11Didn't the 4v motors come along after the 314's were introduced? If so, it would stand to reason that the 4v motors have equivalent or better prechamber/nozzle tech.
Rather make sure than destroy head, these engines are 3 times the price of BMW engine...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
I was very satisfied with them on those engines so I give them a try. Just got stopped at some offset ball swirl chambers and other justmercedesthings. Rather make sure than destroy head, these engines are 3 times the price of BMW engine...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
314 in, and out they go as soon as I make some time. Engine clacks more, no power gain, no visible black smoke. It worked for usual swirl chamber engine like M51, but not for OM605. I also hoped that new nozzles would eliminate blueish smoke at idle as this is mostly dripping injector but its the same-any ideas on this?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy ...any ideas on this?
First things first brother, start yourself a new thread if you're seriously searching for input from the community. Your issues won't get any coverage/response here at the end of an thread on unrelated topic.
And now, my shiny double penny:
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy ...Engine clacks more, no power gain, no visible black smoke. It worked for usual swirl chamber engine like M51, but not for OM605.
Yes, now welcome to the world of benz idi diesels which utilize inline pumps for fuel delivery. It is here at the IP that the amount of fuel entering the chamber is determined. There are no power gains to be found downstream with "enhanced" nozzles (no black smoke either!) Now you CAN reclaim any lost power by replacing out-of-spec components, but that's different. You most likely want to stick with same spec, too, as the uprated nozzles are probably the cause of your "more clack" situation. Factory spec nozzles, most certainly, would have resulted in lower noise (better combustion.)
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy ...I also hoped that new nozzles would eliminate blueish smoke at idle as this is mostly dripping injector but its the same-any ideas on this?
Look elsewhere. My money's on the turbo, especially if the engine's internals (rings, valve guides, etc.) are in good shape?
Good luck
MBZ123
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy ...any ideas on this?
First things first brother, start yourself a new thread if you're seriously searching for input from the community. Your issues won't get any coverage/response here at the end of an thread on unrelated topic.
And now, my shiny double penny:
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy ...Engine clacks more, no power gain, no visible black smoke. It worked for usual swirl chamber engine like M51, but not for OM605.
Yes, now welcome to the world of benz idi diesels which utilize inline pumps for fuel delivery. It is here at the IP that the amount of fuel entering the chamber is determined. There are no power gains to be found downstream with "enhanced" nozzles (no black smoke either!) Now you CAN reclaim any lost power by replacing out-of-spec components, but that's different. You most likely want to stick with same spec, too, as the uprated nozzles are probably the cause of your "more clack" situation. Factory spec nozzles, most certainly, would have resulted in lower noise (better combustion.)
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy ...I also hoped that new nozzles would eliminate blueish smoke at idle as this is mostly dripping injector but its the same-any ideas on this?
Look elsewhere. My money's on the turbo, especially if the engine's internals (rings, valve guides, etc.) are in good shape?
Good luck
MBZ123
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy 314 in, and out they go as soon as I make some time. Engine clacks more, no power gain, no visible black smoke. It worked for usual swirl chamber engine like M51, but not for OM605. I also hoped that new nozzles would eliminate blueish smoke at idle as this is mostly dripping injector but its the same-any ideas on this?
Did you wait 1000km to let the nozzles settle?
If not drive them for at least 500km and report again.
And yes, please start your own thread.
Gruß
Volker
(11-06-2014, 03:37 PM)starynovy 314 in, and out they go as soon as I make some time. Engine clacks more, no power gain, no visible black smoke. It worked for usual swirl chamber engine like M51, but not for OM605. I also hoped that new nozzles would eliminate blueish smoke at idle as this is mostly dripping injector but its the same-any ideas on this?
Did you wait 1000km to let the nozzles settle?
If not drive them for at least 500km and report again.
And yes, please start your own thread.
Gruß
Volker
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Ok, ok I will start my own thread, sorry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
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