w202 220cdi swap turbo
w202 220cdi swap turbo
Hi people, my name is Freddy and i write from portugal. I have a w202 220cdi with 125 hp and a normal turbo and i am thinking to change it for a vnt turbo because their lag. What i need to change,and how i control the vnt turbo? Then i think do a electronic repro offcourse,but i don't know how i control the vnt. Sorry for my english.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thre...22-6-ver-2
raysorenson
02-12-2014, 05:57 PM #2Olefejer's transmission controller can also control a vacuum actuated VNT.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thre...22-6-ver-2
Swapping the ECU sounds like a bad idea, better then to swap the software for one that's made for your new setup.
A Garrett GTB2556V should be a good upgrade for you.
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I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
How is the boost controlled on the stock turbo? Should be pulsated vacuum or boost. Either way you can control the VNT with the same technique. If there are no boost control stock on these cars you can do a manual boost control using a Dawes Device and some vacuum hoses.
Swapping the ECU sounds like a bad idea, better then to swap the software for one that's made for your new setup.
A Garrett GTB2556V should be a good upgrade for you.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
The stock turbo os controled by a vacuum valve. To swap the software what do i do? I have a mpps and winols, but the mpps dont read my ecu, thats return me an invalid key error just at the begining, and i dont know why. My ecu is a edc15c5. I try to build a kwp2000. Thank you very much and sorry for my english.
Eu acho que fazias melhor em anular a valvula de vacuo original do carro e mudavas o turbo que comprasses para trabalhar por pressão...
bruno_pinho
02-13-2014, 08:10 AM #6Boas
Eu acho que fazias melhor em anular a valvula de vacuo original do carro e mudavas o turbo que comprasses para trabalhar por pressão...
Either you need to put the ECU in boot mode to read it with the MPPS or there is a eeprom chip and not a flash chip in the ECU.
You have OBD2 in the car? The MPPS usually tell you what to do, if you need to put the ECU in boot mode or not.
Safest way is to access the ECU by BDM though.
(02-13-2014, 07:50 AM)turbi The stock turbo os controled by a vacuum valve. To swap the software what do i do? I have a mpps and winols, but the mpps dont read my ecu, thats return me an invalid key error just at the begining, and i dont know why. My ecu is a edc15c5. I try to build a kwp2000. Thank you very much and sorry for my english.
You can control a VNT with the vacuum, that's no problem.
(02-13-2014, 08:27 AM)turbi Yes,but a vnt turbo isnt controled by presion but by vacum or electric.and i search a geometry turbo for the lag..
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I need to have your ECU in front of me to give you a good answer. But here is the theory
Either you need to put the ECU in boot mode to read it with the MPPS or there is a eeprom chip and not a flash chip in the ECU.
You have OBD2 in the car? The MPPS usually tell you what to do, if you need to put the ECU in boot mode or not.
Safest way is to access the ECU by BDM though.
(02-13-2014, 07:50 AM)turbi The stock turbo os controled by a vacuum valve. To swap the software what do i do? I have a mpps and winols, but the mpps dont read my ecu, thats return me an invalid key error just at the begining, and i dont know why. My ecu is a edc15c5. I try to build a kwp2000. Thank you very much and sorry for my english.
You can control a VNT with the vacuum, that's no problem.
(02-13-2014, 08:27 AM)turbi Yes,but a vnt turbo isnt controled by presion but by vacum or electric.and i search a geometry turbo for the lag..
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
o meu amigo deixe-se de VNT e coisas afrodisíacas, meta ai um turbo do 300 d e feche a waste gate (sempre fechada), resolve logo o problema do lag.
mas depois disto feito , vai ter de se preocupar com EGT, e pressão na turbina, a pressão n turbina é fácil de fazer barato, uma mola ou duas em função do que pretende. a ideia é ter sempre a waste gate fechada , quando a pressão na turbina (back pressure) subir a mola deixa passar alguns gases e está feito. quanto ao EGT e melhor instalar uma coisa dessas se tem intenção de mexer no combustível de carga. n há milagres o meu 605 estoirou com 5 min a 850 ºC.
boa sorte
FD
FD,
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Boas camarada turbi,
o meu amigo deixe-se de VNT e coisas afrodisíacas, meta ai um turbo do 300 d e feche a waste gate (sempre fechada), resolve logo o problema do lag.
mas depois disto feito , vai ter de se preocupar com EGT, e pressão na turbina, a pressão n turbina é fácil de fazer barato, uma mola ou duas em função do que pretende. a ideia é ter sempre a waste gate fechada , quando a pressão na turbina (back pressure) subir a mola deixa passar alguns gases e está feito. quanto ao EGT e melhor instalar uma coisa dessas se tem intenção de mexer no combustível de carga. n há milagres o meu 605 estoirou com 5 min a 850 ºC.
boa sorte
FD
FD,
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Barrote, your idea is good, but closing the wastgate we have a high presion and the pistons dont like that, i think the best way is put a bigger turbo and keeping the presion stock or a little more for more volume of air than my stock turbo. I have a renault 5 gt turbo and i know the pistons doesnt like high presions lol and the w202 is now my daily car and to play a little in track day and i need a fast response and a durability car.
I dont have obdII port but a 38 pin, and the mpps tell me where is the port, read the type off ecu but dont read the ecu, give me a invalid key error in the begining.
Barrote, your idea is good, but closing the wastgate we have a high presion and the pistons dont like that, i think the best way is put a bigger turbo and keeping the presion stock or a little more for more volume of air than my stock turbo. I have a renault 5 gt turbo and i know the pistons doesnt like high presions lol and the w202 is now my daily car and to play a little in track day and i need a fast response and a durability car.
Hi, i have read something about dawes device and this is a very simple way to control the vnt turbo. Arduino is another choice and swap my software of the ecu is more complicated i think, because i dont know if my ecu accept this changes and how i do this.. For the moment i will search and dawes device and a turbo to experiment and a hardwar to do a repro for my ecu and a egt sensor to view how is de mixture.
Hi, in the turbo map i change the value of 1.18 for 1.3 and in the "n75" map i change the values... I dont know because i dont have an dinamometer in my city... But i need to know if is safe for that turbo a 1.5 or 1.6 bar.. If not, i need to change it for another, because the car is a little smooky...
boost pressure depends a lot on the compressor capacity, and then ofcourse there is load charge, exaust gas through the turbine, i can´t squeze more than 1.2 , 1.3 BAR out of my GT 20 , but i´m not smoking black yet , next month i will load it a bit more to see if i succed to get 1.5 BAR.
Thats why is important to measure boost press, usually ECU controls max boost as a limitation on the system instead of alow the sytem to go to a desired max boost
anyhow don´t u have a boost gauge? u should fix one in the car.
regards
FD,
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hy there ,
boost pressure depends a lot on the compressor capacity, and then ofcourse there is load charge, exaust gas through the turbine, i can´t squeze more than 1.2 , 1.3 BAR out of my GT 20 , but i´m not smoking black yet , next month i will load it a bit more to see if i succed to get 1.5 BAR.
Thats why is important to measure boost press, usually ECU controls max boost as a limitation on the system instead of alow the sytem to go to a desired max boost
anyhow don´t u have a boost gauge? u should fix one in the car.
regards
FD,
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Hi, thaks for the response... I have a gauge to see the boost but, dont instaled in the car... If i put the wastegate directly to vacuum the presure mount up to 1.6 bar...now i need to remap the n75 map another time.. I'm thinking in put a gt2359. Turbo in my car and a bigger ic...
(11-02-2014, 05:03 PM)turbi Hi, thaks for the response... I have a gauge to see the boost but, dont instaled in the car... If i put the wastegate directly to vacuum the presure mount up to 1.6 bar...now i need to remap the n75 map another time.. I'm thinking in put a gt2359. Turbo in my car and a bigger ic...
hy there!!!
good news , i have a IP at 90cc, and a 2359v, it works well. very well pressure goes easily to 2.0BAR. still have a leak at intake stage. what i have found was high EGT , well above 600ºC , i dont want to see where it will go
my engine is a 605 with mech IP.
FD,
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(11-02-2014, 05:03 PM)turbi Hi, thaks for the response... I have a gauge to see the boost but, dont instaled in the car... If i put the wastegate directly to vacuum the presure mount up to 1.6 bar...now i need to remap the n75 map another time.. I'm thinking in put a gt2359. Turbo in my car and a bigger ic...
hy there!!!
good news , i have a IP at 90cc, and a 2359v, it works well. very well pressure goes easily to 2.0BAR. still have a leak at intake stage. what i have found was high EGT , well above 600ºC , i dont want to see where it will go
my engine is a 605 with mech IP.
FD,
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(11-08-2014, 03:04 PM)barrote(11-02-2014, 05:03 PM)turbi Hi, thaks for the response... I have a gauge to see the boost but, dont instaled in the car... If i put the wastegate directly to vacuum the presure mount up to 1.6 bar...now i need to remap the n75 map another time.. I'm thinking in put a gt2359. Turbo in my car and a bigger ic...
hy there!!!
good news , i have a IP at 90cc, and a 2359v, it works well. very well pressure goes easily to 2.0BAR. still have a leak at intake stage. what i have found was high EGT , well above 600ºC , i dont want to see where it will go
my engine is a 605 with mech IP.
Boas
90cc? 6mm elements?
I was to also use a 2359v but I ended up using a 2559v but have not used more than 1.5bar still gets a lot of black smoke backwards, I have to use very close to 2bar.
bruno_pinho
11-09-2014, 05:54 AM #25(11-08-2014, 03:04 PM)barrote(11-02-2014, 05:03 PM)turbi Hi, thaks for the response... I have a gauge to see the boost but, dont instaled in the car... If i put the wastegate directly to vacuum the presure mount up to 1.6 bar...now i need to remap the n75 map another time.. I'm thinking in put a gt2359. Turbo in my car and a bigger ic...
hy there!!!
good news , i have a IP at 90cc, and a 2359v, it works well. very well pressure goes easily to 2.0BAR. still have a leak at intake stage. what i have found was high EGT , well above 600ºC , i dont want to see where it will go
my engine is a 605 with mech IP.
Boas
90cc? 6mm elements?
I was to also use a 2359v but I ended up using a 2559v but have not used more than 1.5bar still gets a lot of black smoke backwards, I have to use very close to 2bar.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Do you guys use proper vane control? Boasting about pressure on VNT turbo makes me smile, unless you talk about fully open vanes. Also take a good look at garrett pages, since compressor maps are available you can see what pressure it can take. Ive been using 2256V and its good for some 1.6Bar then IAT rose greatly as it left eficient area of map, exactly according to garretts graph.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
(11-09-2014, 06:32 AM)starynovy Do you guys use proper vane control? Boasting about pressure on VNT turbo makes me smile, unless you talk about fully open vanes. Also take a good look at garrett pages, since compressor maps are available you can see what pressure it can take. Ive been using 2256V and its good for some 1.6Bar then IAT rose greatly as it left eficient area of map, exactly according to garretts graph.
Shut the solenoid vacuum the car and I changed the turbo actuator vacuum
by a pressure actuator,so I can control the pressure I want manually...
bruno_pinho
11-09-2014, 06:57 AM #27(11-09-2014, 06:32 AM)starynovy Do you guys use proper vane control? Boasting about pressure on VNT turbo makes me smile, unless you talk about fully open vanes. Also take a good look at garrett pages, since compressor maps are available you can see what pressure it can take. Ive been using 2256V and its good for some 1.6Bar then IAT rose greatly as it left eficient area of map, exactly according to garretts graph.
Shut the solenoid vacuum the car and I changed the turbo actuator vacuum
by a pressure actuator,so I can control the pressure I want manually...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
And thats incorrect way to do it which causes pressure drop on partial load and higher fuel consumption at all times.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
(11-10-2014, 10:20 AM)starynovy And thats incorrect way to do it which causes pressure drop on partial load and higher fuel consumption at all times.It is many ways to controll VNT. Some are more successful than others. How are you doing it?
Anjay
1977 300D for parts? Just a pile of rust but still runs!
1984 190D 2.2 - gone to better home
1987 Dodge Maxivan with OM603 and Goran’s 7.5 backroads terror
1987 300TD - tinker toy
1989 300TE - parts
1991 300TE - backyards decor
1991 300TD - Barrote’s 7.5
1992 300TD - semi-STD(Goran modified 7.5 ip but still with factory turbo+at)
1998 E300TD - dd with DSL1 now
1998 ML320 - snow ride
2014 Sprinter 2500 - Malone’s tune + pedal box
(11-10-2014, 10:20 AM)starynovy And thats incorrect way to do it which causes pressure drop on partial load and higher fuel consumption at all times.It is many ways to controll VNT. Some are more successful than others. How are you doing it?
Anjay
1977 300D for parts? Just a pile of rust but still runs!
1984 190D 2.2 - gone to better home
1987 Dodge Maxivan with OM603 and Goran’s 7.5 backroads terror
1987 300TD - tinker toy
1989 300TE - parts
1991 300TE - backyards decor
1991 300TD - Barrote’s 7.5
1992 300TD - semi-STD(Goran modified 7.5 ip but still with factory turbo+at)
1998 E300TD - dd with DSL1 now
1998 ML320 - snow ride
2014 Sprinter 2500 - Malone’s tune + pedal box
270cdi vacuum controlled vnt, 2256 is good upgrade for that.
Gives enough air to other orig parts, CR-pump and injectors.
Very tiny turbo lag.
Made many.
Little mods needed to to make it work.
Conrolling is easy, just put the orig vacuum line into "new" turbo, and let the softw tuner do the job.
If everyting is in suberb condition, ~450nm/200hp.
Autom is better than man (clutch).
.
270cdi vacuum controlled vnt, 2256 is good upgrade for that.
Gives enough air to other orig parts, CR-pump and injectors.
Very tiny turbo lag.
Made many.
Little mods needed to to make it work.
Conrolling is easy, just put the orig vacuum line into "new" turbo, and let the softw tuner do the job.
If everyting is in suberb condition, ~450nm/200hp.
Autom is better than man (clutch).
(11-10-2014, 02:54 PM)tuikku .
270cdi vacuum controlled vnt, 2256 is good upgrade for that.
Gives enough air to other orig parts, CR-pump and injectors.
Very tiny turbo lag.
Made many.
Little mods needed to to make it work.
Conrolling is easy, just put the orig vacuum line into "new" turbo, and let the softw tuner do the job.
If everyting is in suberb condition, ~450nm/200hp.
Autom is better than man (clutch).
I think the ecu the W202 2.5td can not control turbo vnt, even though the original controlled vacuum...
bruno_pinho
11-10-2014, 04:26 PM #31(11-10-2014, 02:54 PM)tuikku .
270cdi vacuum controlled vnt, 2256 is good upgrade for that.
Gives enough air to other orig parts, CR-pump and injectors.
Very tiny turbo lag.
Made many.
Little mods needed to to make it work.
Conrolling is easy, just put the orig vacuum line into "new" turbo, and let the softw tuner do the job.
If everyting is in suberb condition, ~450nm/200hp.
Autom is better than man (clutch).
I think the ecu the W202 2.5td can not control turbo vnt, even though the original controlled vacuum...
crap crap , who the hell want to have control over the vanes control (maybe those wich dont understand a &$# how the control is made on the VNT) , i want 3 BAR and i get it with the vanes locked at certain position which is at max speed of the flowing gas. thats what maters to me. The same goes for the 90cc IP, does not idle correctly who cares is not for idle.
VNT turbos are just the same as the others, depending on the soft your car has to control it, u can play on the maintnance of a good relationship Exaust Gas pressure / Boost produced. on the other hand (P*V/T) when ever the pressure raises temperature will raise too , hapens for boost and for EGP, line production veicles almost never have a chart of the software dedicated to control EGP/EGT relationship, so u have to write one, or fit a gauge and do it yourself lifting the foot. For the boost control modern cars have soft charts for boost control, and not only. many cars have electrically actuated Vanes and as many pressure controled vanes or vacum controled vanes, matters litle if a car does not have soft charts for it.
i belive for STD issues wich is what this fórum is about, we want boost pressure and power so , i did fabricate a device with a screw wich fixes the vanes in the best position for my aplication, i have no soft charts to change . my engine runs as a 70thies diesel engine. let me tell u , very few black smoke and i have seen many BMW over the rearview mirror.
well, i can control it with vacum and pressure, to maintain it inside specs(graph), but the thing is: does it woth the trouble? i can´t see any gain in controling the vanes other that keeping the turbo inside specs. my goal is using sucesfully ouside specs, it is what u are about too right?
FD,
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hy fellows,
crap crap , who the hell want to have control over the vanes control (maybe those wich dont understand a &$# how the control is made on the VNT) , i want 3 BAR and i get it with the vanes locked at certain position which is at max speed of the flowing gas. thats what maters to me. The same goes for the 90cc IP, does not idle correctly who cares is not for idle.
VNT turbos are just the same as the others, depending on the soft your car has to control it, u can play on the maintnance of a good relationship Exaust Gas pressure / Boost produced. on the other hand (P*V/T) when ever the pressure raises temperature will raise too , hapens for boost and for EGP, line production veicles almost never have a chart of the software dedicated to control EGP/EGT relationship, so u have to write one, or fit a gauge and do it yourself lifting the foot. For the boost control modern cars have soft charts for boost control, and not only. many cars have electrically actuated Vanes and as many pressure controled vanes or vacum controled vanes, matters litle if a car does not have soft charts for it.
i belive for STD issues wich is what this fórum is about, we want boost pressure and power so , i did fabricate a device with a screw wich fixes the vanes in the best position for my aplication, i have no soft charts to change . my engine runs as a 70thies diesel engine. let me tell u , very few black smoke and i have seen many BMW over the rearview mirror.
well, i can control it with vacum and pressure, to maintain it inside specs(graph), but the thing is: does it woth the trouble? i can´t see any gain in controling the vanes other that keeping the turbo inside specs. my goal is using sucesfully ouside specs, it is what u are about too right?
FD,
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VNT turbos were created so big turbo which is capable of delivering enough air will not have 5s lag, and thats exactly what you did by fixing vanes.. whats the point of VNT then? Go with wastegated version and you are happy. I control vanes so desired pressure is available ONLY when its needed thus reducing fuel consumption, and its quickly for use. Thanks to not fixed geometry I build pressure instantly, floor the pedal and tires burn, not waiting 5s with black smoke behind my ass like an idiot. Make your research on how true VNT equipped engine controls its turbo-not so straight forward as it would seem.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Fix vanes in some position? What is that? VNT turbos were created so big turbo which is capable of delivering enough air will not have 5s lag, and thats exactly what you did by fixing vanes.. whats the point of VNT then? Go with wastegated version and you are happy.
I control vanes so desired pressure is available ONLY when its needed thus reducing fuel consumption, and its quickly for use. Thanks to not fixed geometry I build pressure instantly, floor the pedal and tires burn, not waiting 5s with black smoke behind my ass like an idiot. Make your research on how true VNT equipped engine controls its turbo-not so straight forward as it would seem.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Fix vanes in some position? What is that?
VNT turbos were created so big turbo which is capable of delivering enough air will not have 5s lag, and thats exactly what you did by fixing vanes.. whats the point of VNT then? Go with wastegated version and you are happy. hurggg, yes boss!!!
please would u explain "us" "idiots with the vanes fixed" how would we use a VNT device in a 1970 car?
ps: idiot is a person with ideas
FD,
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[quote='starynovy' pid='67760' dateline='1416048598']
Fix vanes in some position? What is that? VNT turbos were created so big turbo which is capable of delivering enough air will not have 5s lag, and thats exactly what you did by fixing vanes.. whats the point of VNT then? Go with wastegated version and you are happy.
hurggg, yes boss!!!
please would u explain "us" "idiots with the vanes fixed" how would we use a VNT device in a 1970 car?
ps: idiot is a person with ideas
FD,
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Hi!!!! Finaly i have build and mounted my gt2359v from a 320cdi like tuikku said on her post in other forun. Now the problem is the lag and control the presure...i think i have my vnt map localized, but i can't do the right modifies on the map to control the turbo...tuikku for this turbo what are the right iq for 1.4, 1.5 bar presure in this turbo? Now i drive with 83of iq... Can you see my file and tell me if my vnt map is the right map or not? I try some changes and i think it is but i'm not an expert in this things lol
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