0M605 into W114 gearbox possibilities
0M605 into W114 gearbox possibilities
I'd like to keep the column shift as it's part of the character of the car - can anyone recommend an adaptor maker to mate the two and whether it would be better to use the C250 bellhousing or the M180 one please?
The same W114 gearbox (sorry I don't have a part number) could be controlled either by a normal floor shift or column mechanism. The gearbox itself is shifted by several levers on the left. Do any later gearboxes that would mate to the OM60X have the same side lever arrangement? (long shot I know).
Worst comes to the worst I'll use the 5 speed but I thought it was worth asking first.
Finally, if I can make it happen, does anyone know how much torque the W114 4 speed manuals can take? I believe the ones behind M110 280s are the strongest i don't know any more than that.
Thanks
Hi, I have an early W114 4 speed manual column shift with a dodgy M180 engine and a C250TD donor with OM605 and manual box. I've read back through old posts finding the various challenges of putting the OM605 into a /8 and have seen that while OM61X engines will fit the original /8 gearboxes the OM60X won't.
I'd like to keep the column shift as it's part of the character of the car - can anyone recommend an adaptor maker to mate the two and whether it would be better to use the C250 bellhousing or the M180 one please?
The same W114 gearbox (sorry I don't have a part number) could be controlled either by a normal floor shift or column mechanism. The gearbox itself is shifted by several levers on the left. Do any later gearboxes that would mate to the OM60X have the same side lever arrangement? (long shot I know).
Worst comes to the worst I'll use the 5 speed but I thought it was worth asking first.
Finally, if I can make it happen, does anyone know how much torque the W114 4 speed manuals can take? I believe the ones behind M110 280s are the strongest i don't know any more than that.
Thanks
regarding shifter, i dont know the construction of the shifter mechanism on the center, but it should be doable.
what is the layout today
R13
24
? if so less luck, but seeing that the gearbox has the fifth gear and the R in the same linkage part, you could in worst case senario
try and make it
R13
524
not that many colomn shifts around, so i dont have any first hand experience
the levers on al om60x gearboxes are on the left side of the gearbox as far as i know. and al of them has the R and 5 in the same lever/linkage
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
12-19-2014, 06:27 PM #2the om605 wont be happy with such high rpms as the 280E has, (aka differential) and that even with a fivespeed.. get yourself a differential to
regarding shifter, i dont know the construction of the shifter mechanism on the center, but it should be doable.
what is the layout today
R13
24
? if so less luck, but seeing that the gearbox has the fifth gear and the R in the same linkage part, you could in worst case senario
try and make it
R13
524
not that many colomn shifts around, so i dont have any first hand experience
the levers on al om60x gearboxes are on the left side of the gearbox as far as i know. and al of them has the R and 5 in the same lever/linkage
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
W124 200D's and W201 190D 2.0 had a 4 speed gearbox as standard and that should work well with that column shift.
However I THINK that the gearbox in that C250 donor you have would work with your column shifter, it's just that you would end up with a really STUPID shift pattern
You have this pattern now:
R 1 3
--2 4
You would end up with something like this:
R 1 3
5 2 4
Or this:
5 1 3
R 2 4
So it would be okay shifing from first to fourth but you would have to pull the reverse lockout to shift into fifth
Also your gearbox doesn't have a speedo cable output since the speedo is driven by the ABS system.
All mercedes gearboxes until the six speed arrived in year 2000 had the same side lever arrangement. Mercedes never offered the column shift with a five speed so i think you are out of luck on that one.
W124 200D's and W201 190D 2.0 had a 4 speed gearbox as standard and that should work well with that column shift.
However I THINK that the gearbox in that C250 donor you have would work with your column shifter, it's just that you would end up with a really STUPID shift pattern
You have this pattern now:
R 1 3
--2 4
You would end up with something like this:
R 1 3
5 2 4
Or this:
5 1 3
R 2 4
So it would be okay shifing from first to fourth but you would have to pull the reverse lockout to shift into fifth
Also your gearbox doesn't have a speedo cable output since the speedo is driven by the ABS system.
Just to throw it out there, would you convert the engine to mechanical pump or keep the electrical one and ECU and integrate the ABS, ASR etc into the W114? The parts are on the donor effectively free and all work nicely.
Wow thanks Swampmonkey and Petar. I hadn't considered using the 5 speed from the C250 in column shift mode. I'll go that route, worst way, I just don't use 5th and change the rear diff (which I'd have to do anyway) to pull the ratios back to reasonable.
Just to throw it out there, would you convert the engine to mechanical pump or keep the electrical one and ECU and integrate the ABS, ASR etc into the W114? The parts are on the donor effectively free and all work nicely.
It's a matter of preference really, the electronic pump is a bit better on fueling control and everything but requires a lot more wiring.The advantage is that the pump is already built and all you need to do is connect the wiring.
On the other hand for a mechanical pump you would have to get a bosch shop to swap the elements and calibrate the pump and that can cost quite a bit depending on where you live.
But the simplicity is hard to beat. All you need to run the engine is glow plugs, a single vacuum line for the shutoff, and the starter, hell you don't even need the starter if you have a big enough hill
No sensors to go bad, no computers to go into limp mode etc....
Mechanically pumped diesels are one of the most reliable machines in the world.
If you have a manual transmission there is no need to integrate ABS and everything into the W114, so it's significantly easier.
It's a matter of preference really, the electronic pump is a bit better on fueling control and everything but requires a lot more wiring.The advantage is that the pump is already built and all you need to do is connect the wiring.
On the other hand for a mechanical pump you would have to get a bosch shop to swap the elements and calibrate the pump and that can cost quite a bit depending on where you live.
But the simplicity is hard to beat. All you need to run the engine is glow plugs, a single vacuum line for the shutoff, and the starter, hell you don't even need the starter if you have a big enough hill
No sensors to go bad, no computers to go into limp mode etc....
Mechanically pumped diesels are one of the most reliable machines in the world.
If getting a mechanical pump calibrated, is there more power to be had at that point, changing nothing else? Ie if calibrating now, is it worth doing things so that it doesn't have to be done a second time later?
Also, what's the economy hit going from electronic to manual? Ie how many more l/100km or less mpg.
Finally are the glowplugs run by the ECU or some simple timer?
Thanks
Petar,
If getting a mechanical pump calibrated, is there more power to be had at that point, changing nothing else? Ie if calibrating now, is it worth doing things so that it doesn't have to be done a second time later?
Also, what's the economy hit going from electronic to manual? Ie how many more l/100km or less mpg.
Finally are the glowplugs run by the ECU or some simple timer?
Thanks
I think 80-90 cc is what people set these 6mm pumps at.
However your stock turbo won't supply enough air for that much fuel.
You could for instance add a screw that pushes in the stop lever to reduce the fuel and just turn it up when you upgrade the turbo.
Adjusting the governor on the M pump is NOT easy to do without a test bench and external full load stop solves this problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qr-3iwSF1g
Fuel economy should be the same if you don't use the extra power. IMHO the electronic pump was made primarily to comply to emission standards.
Well you could have the shop set the pump for more fuel.
I think 80-90 cc is what people set these 6mm pumps at.
However your stock turbo won't supply enough air for that much fuel.
You could for instance add a screw that pushes in the stop lever to reduce the fuel and just turn it up when you upgrade the turbo.
Adjusting the governor on the M pump is NOT easy to do without a test bench and external full load stop solves this problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qr-3iwSF1g
Fuel economy should be the same if you don't use the extra power. IMHO the electronic pump was made primarily to comply to emission standards.
do you have a turbo or not? if not, there is realy no reason to keep the electronic pump, the NA (naturaly aspirated) om605 had 5.5mm elements in the w124, and the om605turbo in w202 had 6mm elements.
not that large difference, if you want a dialy non turbo om605 in a w114, a mechanical pump would do just perfect.
there are a lot of gearboxes available for that engine with mechanical speedometer to, might be worth a few bucks extra to have a easily working speedometer.
theoretical, you wouldnt have any higher consumption with a mechanical over electronic pump, (my guess is the advantage of the electric is more from an environmental point of view)
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
12-21-2014, 09:50 PM #8C250TD = touring Diesel, C250TDT, touring diesel turbo. C250DT = Dieselturbo
do you have a turbo or not? if not, there is realy no reason to keep the electronic pump, the NA (naturaly aspirated) om605 had 5.5mm elements in the w124, and the om605turbo in w202 had 6mm elements.
not that large difference, if you want a dialy non turbo om605 in a w114, a mechanical pump would do just perfect.
there are a lot of gearboxes available for that engine with mechanical speedometer to, might be worth a few bucks extra to have a easily working speedometer.
theoretical, you wouldnt have any higher consumption with a mechanical over electronic pump, (my guess is the advantage of the electric is more from an environmental point of view)
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
there are a lot of things that will be trial and error I guess. It wouldn't be terrible to have a 5th gear in an odd place like opposite reverse if it worked. I could treat it like an overdrive. It would be annoying though to fit the 5 speed, maybe have to alter the linkage arm lengths and then discover that all the gears were still difficult or impossible.
An older 4 speed gearbox might have a better spacing of ratios too - as well as having the mechanical drive. As Petar correctly said, current layout is:
R-1-3
---2-4
I know there are convertors Eg http://www.abbott-tach.com/cablex.htm but they're cagey about price and I don't know if they are suitable.
on the other hand would the 4 speeds mentioned above take the torque?
I think, if I could make the engine mechanical but keep the ECU running everything but the engine then i could have the mechanical pump reliability while the electronics controlled the ABS, ASR etc but I guess the ECU is going to notice the engine is missing!
With the aforementioned set-up I could eventually add in the safety stuff but if the ECU failed I would still be able to drive the car, just without ABS etc.
Sorry for my ambiguity Swampmonkey. It's a C250DT Ie saloon turbo. So does that make the mechanical pump more or less of a good idea?
there are a lot of things that will be trial and error I guess. It wouldn't be terrible to have a 5th gear in an odd place like opposite reverse if it worked. I could treat it like an overdrive. It would be annoying though to fit the 5 speed, maybe have to alter the linkage arm lengths and then discover that all the gears were still difficult or impossible.
An older 4 speed gearbox might have a better spacing of ratios too - as well as having the mechanical drive. As Petar correctly said, current layout is:
R-1-3
---2-4
I know there are convertors Eg http://www.abbott-tach.com/cablex.htm but they're cagey about price and I don't know if they are suitable.
on the other hand would the 4 speeds mentioned above take the torque?
I think, if I could make the engine mechanical but keep the ECU running everything but the engine then i could have the mechanical pump reliability while the electronics controlled the ABS, ASR etc but I guess the ECU is going to notice the engine is missing! With the aforementioned set-up I could eventually add in the safety stuff but if the ECU failed I would still be able to drive the car, just without ABS etc.
I might be way off on this but if you hooked the column linkage up to the 5-speed wouldn't you get 1, 3, 4, 5 and reverse? with 1st were reverse would be, 3rd in 1st place, 4th in 2nd, 5th in thirds and reverse in 4th's place. maybe second if the linkage will shift down from the original reverse position.
(12-22-2014, 03:54 PM)Edian727 I might be way off on this but if you hooked the column linkage up to the 5-speed wouldn't you get 1, 3, 4, 5 and reverse? with 1st were reverse would be, 3rd in 1st place, 4th in 2nd, 5th in thirds and reverse in 4th's place. maybe second if the linkage will shift down from the original reverse position.
Actually no. The gears are shifted by three levers on the transmission. One lever is first and second gear, second lever is third and fourth gear and the third lever controls reverse and fifth gear if it exists. Moving the shifter left and right picks a lever and moving the shifter backwards and forwards moves the lever.
It's similar to this:
![[Image: topldr3.jpg]](http://www.classictiger.com/techtips/toplodr/topldr3.jpg)
(12-22-2014, 03:54 PM)Edian727 I might be way off on this but if you hooked the column linkage up to the 5-speed wouldn't you get 1, 3, 4, 5 and reverse? with 1st were reverse would be, 3rd in 1st place, 4th in 2nd, 5th in thirds and reverse in 4th's place. maybe second if the linkage will shift down from the original reverse position.
Actually no. The gears are shifted by three levers on the transmission. One lever is first and second gear, second lever is third and fourth gear and the third lever controls reverse and fifth gear if it exists. Moving the shifter left and right picks a lever and moving the shifter backwards and forwards moves the lever.
It's similar to this:
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Imagine with a standalone 722.6 controller behind the 605 it could have colum-shift sequential lol, if you could make the 722 fit..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Been talking with Martyn at http://www.m-bv8conversions.co.uk/ who also reckons he can get me 5 speeds from the column shift albeit maybe with the odd 5th. He's convinced me it'll be a lot cheaper hacking the ECU which is something he does all the time. In fact that reminds me I need to pass on that info to TurboDieselWiesel on RR.
Small world Hario Been talking with Martyn at http://www.m-bv8conversions.co.uk/ who also reckons he can get me 5 speeds from the column shift albeit maybe with the odd 5th. He's convinced me it'll be a lot cheaper hacking the ECU which is something he does all the time. In fact that reminds me I need to pass on that info to TurboDieselWiesel on RR.
1-3-5
2-4-R
like on early W124s and W123s? "R" is always at the lower end of the shift gate with 5spds anyway...
DiseaselWeasel
12-25-2014, 09:53 AM #15Hmmm - thinking about it - wouldn't it be possible to make it
1-3-5
2-4-R
like on early W124s and W123s? "R" is always at the lower end of the shift gate with 5spds anyway...
(12-25-2014, 09:53 AM)DiseaselWeasel Hmmm - thinking about it - wouldn't it be possible to make it
1-3-5
2-4-R
like on early W124s and W123s? "R" is always at the lower end of the shift gate with 5spds anyway...
Hmm, R is South West like on W124 5 speed. Where that is on the actual gearbox I don't know. If the three levers are R5 12 34 perhaps it's possible to put R5 furthest away from driver.
(12-25-2014, 09:53 AM)DiseaselWeasel Hmmm - thinking about it - wouldn't it be possible to make it
1-3-5
2-4-R
like on early W124s and W123s? "R" is always at the lower end of the shift gate with 5spds anyway...
Hmm, R is South West like on W124 5 speed. Where that is on the actual gearbox I don't know. If the three levers are R5 12 34 perhaps it's possible to put R5 furthest away from driver.
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