OM617 injectors & ip
OM617 injectors & ip
03-22-2014, 11:41 PM
#1
I'm used to hopping up diesel trucks, specifically the 6.9/7.3 IDIs and early 5.9 12v, basic maintenance and very mild tuning on my CD.
As far as the injector pump it would be great to have a myna pump but the cost is keeping me from jump to that just yet. For injector I have no idea where to start. Any help and/or suggestions for the pump and injectors? I'd like to be in the area of 250 to 275 hp and 350 to 375 lb/ft of torque.
Currently on my CD all the emission controls have been removed, the ip is turned up a little bit, 3" turbo back straight piped, and the ALDA is disconnected.
This build will be using a separate engine and hooked up to either a four or five speed automatic transmission (I'm no longer physically able to drive a standard shift, which sucks).
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
03-22-2014, 11:41 PM #1After owning my 300CD since '97 I'm finally getting to the point where I'm going to be building an OM617 from the ground up. I have the engine, looking to use a VVT using the vacuum from the emission controls to actuate the variable vanes and right now I'm trying to figure out the fueling side of this project.
I'm used to hopping up diesel trucks, specifically the 6.9/7.3 IDIs and early 5.9 12v, basic maintenance and very mild tuning on my CD.
As far as the injector pump it would be great to have a myna pump but the cost is keeping me from jump to that just yet. For injector I have no idea where to start. Any help and/or suggestions for the pump and injectors? I'd like to be in the area of 250 to 275 hp and 350 to 375 lb/ft of torque.
Currently on my CD all the emission controls have been removed, the ip is turned up a little bit, 3" turbo back straight piped, and the ALDA is disconnected.
This build will be using a separate engine and hooked up to either a four or five speed automatic transmission (I'm no longer physically able to drive a standard shift, which sucks).
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
03-23-2014, 06:42 PM
#2
If you want to go crazy you will need stronger custom rods, a ported head(maybe bigger valves), and fancy manifolds.
You can bore out the prchambers as well...
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
03-23-2014, 06:42 PM #2You really "only" need a 10MM pump from dieselmenken, a bigger turbo, and some gauges.
If you want to go crazy you will need stronger custom rods, a ported head(maybe bigger valves), and fancy manifolds.
You can bore out the prchambers as well...
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
03-23-2014, 08:03 PM
#3
For the project I have a good idea for the turbo side. For the fueling all I seemed to ever hear was the myna ip, the possibility of using VW injectors, but nothing really solid hey go here or here's a company stateside that has parts.
Just thinking loud but would a p pump for the BT series, or stanadyne, or a modified cp3 work for the 617?
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
03-23-2014, 08:03 PM #3Not looking to go too crazy, just looking for some direction. The diesel truck world is full of performance upgrades, but for the old Benz's it seems difficult to find anything to bring up the power besides throwing ton of cash or having custom made parts.
For the project I have a good idea for the turbo side. For the fueling all I seemed to ever hear was the myna ip, the possibility of using VW injectors, but nothing really solid hey go here or here's a company stateside that has parts.
Just thinking loud but would a p pump for the BT series, or stanadyne, or a modified cp3 work for the 617?
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
03-24-2014, 12:07 PM
#4
(03-23-2014, 08:03 PM)ShaggyDiesel Just thinking loud but would a p pump for the BT series, or stanadyne, or a modified cp3 work for the 617?
Theoretically, any 5 cylinder injection pump will work, and that is where the problem lies. A 5 cylinder pump is not very easy to source, other than our stock MW pumps.
A cp3 is completely out of the question unless you want to completely redesign the engine. Cp3 create between 5,000-30,000psi where as our injectors pop at less than 2,000psi. Then there's the problem of not having electrically fired injectors and nothing to control the IP, etc etc..
Very complicated to do :p
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(03-23-2014, 08:03 PM)ShaggyDiesel Just thinking loud but would a p pump for the BT series, or stanadyne, or a modified cp3 work for the 617?
Theoretically, any 5 cylinder injection pump will work, and that is where the problem lies. A 5 cylinder pump is not very easy to source, other than our stock MW pumps.
A cp3 is completely out of the question unless you want to completely redesign the engine. Cp3 create between 5,000-30,000psi where as our injectors pop at less than 2,000psi. Then there's the problem of not having electrically fired injectors and nothing to control the IP, etc etc..
Very complicated to do :p
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
03-25-2014, 12:25 AM
#5
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
03-25-2014, 12:25 AM #5thanks its good to know. I've never really got my hands on going through the mw pump, is it similar in make and operation to other mechanical driven pumps like the p, ve, and stanadyne used in the larger truck engines? with that you think it would be possible to modify one those to work for this application or would it just be easier to take the mw and do some trial and error to get the fueling up?
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
03-25-2014, 07:41 AM
#6
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
It's is similar in operation to any other inline pump, but the governor assembly is what makes it different from others. It is very different from a VE or stanadyne pump because both of those are rotary or distributor style pumps, very different concept.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
03-25-2014, 09:50 PM
#7
for the mw it comes down the element and plunger sizes, is there a cam mod, what else can be reasonably modified with have to completely turn the pump over to a custom shop?
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
03-25-2014, 09:50 PM #7got it, so theoretically a modified p pump "could" work but it's either one too short or one more too much.
for the mw it comes down the element and plunger sizes, is there a cam mod, what else can be reasonably modified with have to completely turn the pump over to a custom shop?
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
03-26-2014, 01:42 PM
#8
Maybe even search for MW pump theory
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
There is a document that om616 wrote on how to understand the mw pump and how to turn them up, maybe someone can provide a link for you to read it.
Maybe even search for MW pump theory
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
03-31-2014, 09:55 AM
#9
This post was last modified: 04-01-2014, 10:16 AM by ShaggyDiesel.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
03-31-2014, 09:55 AM #9got it, thanks for the tip.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-01-2014, 09:18 AM
#10
(03-26-2014, 01:42 PM)MFSuper90 There is a document that om616 wrote on how to understand the mw pump and how to turn them up, maybe someone can provide a link for you to read it.
Maybe even search for MW pump theory
Here you go (see link below) - BTW this document was authored by OM616, I am merely hosting / archiving it mainly for my own convenience. All credit and questions regarding this document should be (courteously) directed to OM616. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkAv...hs0I&pli=1
Here is a link to the adjustments that I made to my MW pump:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9974e3...sp=sharing
From what I hear, tweaking the stock MW ip will net you maybe 175 hp at the crank max - provided that you provide adequate cool boost and keep a sharp eye on the EGT. The stock IP/DV/Injector setup will cause late injection when you turn up the fueling - so beware.
This post was last modified: 04-01-2014, 09:45 AM by kestreltom.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
04-01-2014, 09:18 AM #10(03-26-2014, 01:42 PM)MFSuper90 There is a document that om616 wrote on how to understand the mw pump and how to turn them up, maybe someone can provide a link for you to read it.
Maybe even search for MW pump theory
Here you go (see link below) - BTW this document was authored by OM616, I am merely hosting / archiving it mainly for my own convenience. All credit and questions regarding this document should be (courteously) directed to OM616. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkAv...hs0I&pli=1
Here is a link to the adjustments that I made to my MW pump:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9974e3...sp=sharing
From what I hear, tweaking the stock MW ip will net you maybe 175 hp at the crank max - provided that you provide adequate cool boost and keep a sharp eye on the EGT. The stock IP/DV/Injector setup will cause late injection when you turn up the fueling - so beware.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
04-01-2014, 10:35 AM
#11
your write up help out and gave some more insight.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-01-2014, 10:35 AM #11thanks, but I found the doc earlier and have read through it a couple of times. a friend of mine is giving me a mw pump for the work that did on his tow rig ('97 Chevy Suburban 6.5 290k+), now it's down to going through the whole pump so that I can really understand what I've been reading about.
your write up help out and gave some more insight.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-01-2014, 11:11 AM
#12
(04-01-2014, 10:35 AM)ShaggyDiesel thanks, but I found the doc earlier and have read through it a couple of times. a friend of mine is giving me a mw pump for the work that did on his tow rig ('97 Chevy Suburban 6.5 290k+), now it's down to going through the whole pump so that I can really understand what I've been reading about.
your write up help out and gave some more insight.
Glad to be of help.
DieselMenken has said recently that he is willing to go through an MW and give his insight into how to tweak it for performance. He has a calibration machine and the know how to use it. He also is looking at some aftermarket - 8mm I think - elements to retrofit into the MW with an eye to providing an alternative to Myna. Goran posted a 10mm retrofitted MW pump on this forum for sale recently. Maybe he still has it??
OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
04-01-2014, 11:11 AM #12(04-01-2014, 10:35 AM)ShaggyDiesel thanks, but I found the doc earlier and have read through it a couple of times. a friend of mine is giving me a mw pump for the work that did on his tow rig ('97 Chevy Suburban 6.5 290k+), now it's down to going through the whole pump so that I can really understand what I've been reading about.
your write up help out and gave some more insight.
Glad to be of help.
DieselMenken has said recently that he is willing to go through an MW and give his insight into how to tweak it for performance. He has a calibration machine and the know how to use it. He also is looking at some aftermarket - 8mm I think - elements to retrofit into the MW with an eye to providing an alternative to Myna. Goran posted a 10mm retrofitted MW pump on this forum for sale recently. Maybe he still has it??
OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
04-01-2014, 02:05 PM
#13
(04-01-2014, 11:11 AM)kestreltom OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
To clarify, I touch up the end of injection groove not because it is necessary to make them work, they will work just fine as they are, I just am really anal lol, and tightening up the tolerance between each element makes a difference in the overall quality of the pump. Even though they are 10mm elements, with the right peripheral parts, their output can be radically reduced to near or bellow the stock 5.5mm element delievery without touching the element at all.
I did reangle the groove on the first elements I tried, but later learned that it was not necessary with the proper peripheral parts used.
The grinding operation is actually not that complex. I made a fixture and set up a miniature mill with and dressed the edge. I am a machinist so to me this is nothing complex at all.. It is straight groove with a constant depth... It looks like they used a chop saw to cut the groves originally lol...
(04-01-2014, 11:11 AM)kestreltom OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
To clarify, I touch up the end of injection groove not because it is necessary to make them work, they will work just fine as they are, I just am really anal lol, and tightening up the tolerance between each element makes a difference in the overall quality of the pump. Even though they are 10mm elements, with the right peripheral parts, their output can be radically reduced to near or bellow the stock 5.5mm element delievery without touching the element at all.
I did reangle the groove on the first elements I tried, but later learned that it was not necessary with the proper peripheral parts used.
The grinding operation is actually not that complex. I made a fixture and set up a miniature mill with and dressed the edge. I am a machinist so to me this is nothing complex at all.. It is straight groove with a constant depth... It looks like they used a chop saw to cut the groves originally lol...
04-01-2014, 06:18 PM
#14
(04-01-2014, 02:05 PM)OM616(04-01-2014, 11:11 AM)kestreltom OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
To clarify...
Well Helloo! Good to hear from you, OM616. You seem never far from the forums - which is great
Thanks for clarifying the process that you are employing. Sounds very interesting.
Questions:
1.) You mentioned peripheral parts... do you mean DVs and injectors?
2.) Have you set up your pump calibration machine?
This post was last modified: 04-01-2014, 06:21 PM by kestreltom.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
04-01-2014, 06:18 PM #14(04-01-2014, 02:05 PM)OM616(04-01-2014, 11:11 AM)kestreltom OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
To clarify...
Well Helloo! Good to hear from you, OM616. You seem never far from the forums - which is great
Thanks for clarifying the process that you are employing. Sounds very interesting.
Questions:
1.) You mentioned peripheral parts... do you mean DVs and injectors?
2.) Have you set up your pump calibration machine?
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
04-01-2014, 10:42 PM
#15
(04-01-2014, 11:11 AM)kestreltom(04-01-2014, 10:35 AM)ShaggyDiesel thanks, but I found the doc earlier and have read through it a couple of times. a friend of mine is giving me a mw pump for the work that did on his tow rig ('97 Chevy Suburban 6.5 290k+), now it's down to going through the whole pump so that I can really understand what I've been reading about.
your write up help out and gave some more insight.
Glad to be of help.
DieselMenken has said recently that he is willing to go through an MW and give his insight into how to tweak it for performance. He has a calibration machine and the know how to use it. He also is looking at some aftermarket - 8mm I think - elements to retrofit into the MW with an eye to providing an alternative to Myna. Goran posted a 10mm retrofitted MW pump on this forum for sale recently. Maybe he still has it??
OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
yeah i saw that, it kinda struck me that if he able to either on his own or a collaborative effort with this site it'll really open a market stateside.
the problem that i have is that i can't keep my mind on track, today while work on the blower motor i started think about building this 617 into a properly built 3.5l 617 using a compound turbo setup or a supercharger-turbo setup. again it'll all come down to fueling, and available space.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-01-2014, 10:42 PM #15(04-01-2014, 11:11 AM)kestreltom(04-01-2014, 10:35 AM)ShaggyDiesel thanks, but I found the doc earlier and have read through it a couple of times. a friend of mine is giving me a mw pump for the work that did on his tow rig ('97 Chevy Suburban 6.5 290k+), now it's down to going through the whole pump so that I can really understand what I've been reading about.
your write up help out and gave some more insight.
Glad to be of help.
DieselMenken has said recently that he is willing to go through an MW and give his insight into how to tweak it for performance. He has a calibration machine and the know how to use it. He also is looking at some aftermarket - 8mm I think - elements to retrofit into the MW with an eye to providing an alternative to Myna. Goran posted a 10mm retrofitted MW pump on this forum for sale recently. Maybe he still has it??
OM616 is working on a 10mm element retrofit to the MW, but the plungers need very meticulous re-grinding to the fueling slot - which is hard to control without access to a precision 4 axis cnc grinding setup.
yeah i saw that, it kinda struck me that if he able to either on his own or a collaborative effort with this site it'll really open a market stateside.
the problem that i have is that i can't keep my mind on track, today while work on the blower motor i started think about building this 617 into a properly built 3.5l 617 using a compound turbo setup or a supercharger-turbo setup. again it'll all come down to fueling, and available space.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-02-2014, 11:23 PM
#17
I'm not building a 616, I'm building a 617. The more thought that I'm giving it, using all forged internals with super/turbo or compound turbo and a mw with 8 to 10mm elements in a properly built ip should make some good power. Then it's just finding or building up a Benz auto trans that can handle it.
btw thanks again for the info.
This post was last modified: 04-02-2014, 11:24 PM by ShaggyDiesel.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-02-2014, 11:23 PM #17yank,
I'm not building a 616, I'm building a 617. The more thought that I'm giving it, using all forged internals with super/turbo or compound turbo and a mw with 8 to 10mm elements in a properly built ip should make some good power. Then it's just finding or building up a Benz auto trans that can handle it.
btw thanks again for the info.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-03-2014, 11:09 AM
#18
(04-01-2014, 06:18 PM)kestreltom Well Helloo! Good to hear from you, OM616. You seem never far from the forums - which is great
Thanks for clarifying the process that you are employing. Sounds very interesting.
Questions:
1.) You mentioned peripheral parts... do you mean DVs and injectors?
2.) Have you set up your pump calibration machine?
1) yes
2) I have not had the free time to make any real progress on it. I have the motor, Variable Frequency Drive, and Master Injectors, but the time to make some of the other parts has eluded me.
I always brake out in a chuckle every time some one says "there is a market it the USA for MW superpump work"... There are a few shops that have been identified on this forum that will do the work, and several pumps shops that hot rod P pumps would be willing to do it as well, but how many actually are willing to pay to have the work done? lol.. I don't have to take off my shoes to count them
(04-01-2014, 06:18 PM)kestreltom Well Helloo! Good to hear from you, OM616. You seem never far from the forums - which is great
Thanks for clarifying the process that you are employing. Sounds very interesting.
Questions:
1.) You mentioned peripheral parts... do you mean DVs and injectors?
2.) Have you set up your pump calibration machine?
1) yes
2) I have not had the free time to make any real progress on it. I have the motor, Variable Frequency Drive, and Master Injectors, but the time to make some of the other parts has eluded me.
I always brake out in a chuckle every time some one says "there is a market it the USA for MW superpump work"... There are a few shops that have been identified on this forum that will do the work, and several pumps shops that hot rod P pumps would be willing to do it as well, but how many actually are willing to pay to have the work done? lol.. I don't have to take off my shoes to count them
04-03-2014, 11:38 AM
#19
Ed
yankneck696
04-03-2014, 11:38 AM #19I meant 617... If you truly want real HP #s, please save the time & go with an OM606. They can withstand quite a bit more power than the OM617. As for a trans, there are several adapter plates out there to mate it to GM, Toyota, Ford & Jeep. So, take your pick.
Ed
04-03-2014, 02:40 PM
#20
1: Stay as original as possible, i.e. Mercedes only
2: No electronics all mechanical and vacuum
3: Goals of 300 to 375 hp and 450 to 500 lb-ft (it maybe a bit lofty, but I think with the right parts and proper tuning it could be obtained)
Ultimately with the suspension/brake upgrades, rolling stock, and a better power to weight ratio with timeless god looks of the W123 300CD makes a great looking/driving classic car.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-03-2014, 02:40 PM #20I know that I'm sounding a bit stubborn, but I'm trying to do few things with tis project;
1: Stay as original as possible, i.e. Mercedes only
2: No electronics all mechanical and vacuum
3: Goals of 300 to 375 hp and 450 to 500 lb-ft (it maybe a bit lofty, but I think with the right parts and proper tuning it could be obtained)
Ultimately with the suspension/brake upgrades, rolling stock, and a better power to weight ratio with timeless god looks of the W123 300CD makes a great looking/driving classic car.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-03-2014, 09:58 PM
#22
I currently run three of their transmissions on my work trucks and DD/pull truck.
Any rate back to the engine, are these levels possible out of the 617? I know I can get this out of a 5.9 12v p-pump with hand tools a weekend and less than 500 bucks in parts.
adapt and overcome.
This post was last modified: 04-03-2014, 10:01 PM by ShaggyDiesel.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-03-2014, 09:58 PM #22The built transmissions that I've done in the past for 5.9 12 & 24v cummins and the International/NavStar 444E with the 47RH/47RE and the C6/E4OD respectively I have only used BTS. They're located out in Lead Hill, Arkansas and they stand behind their work, it would be something totally different from what they're used to, but they might be up for a new challenge.
I currently run three of their transmissions on my work trucks and DD/pull truck.
Any rate back to the engine, are these levels possible out of the 617? I know I can get this out of a 5.9 12v p-pump with hand tools a weekend and less than 500 bucks in parts.
adapt and overcome.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-06-2014, 04:12 PM
#23
BTW the "all gave some and some gave all" was known to be the remembering for Peleliu far before it was for 9/11.
http://www.visit-palau.com/60thanniv/history.html
This post was last modified: 04-06-2014, 04:15 PM by MTUPower.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
The problem is not fueling- it's air. I've got a Myna pump and it's not much better than my modified MW pump when turned down to avoid large amounts of smoke. It's a daily driver so I can't be smoking out the road everytime I wish to pass someone. A VNT system is not easy to build with satisfaction as a result. I think I'll have to go with a small ball bearing turbo to get the air I need for the fuel capability. Those are high dollar.
BTW the "all gave some and some gave all" was known to be the remembering for Peleliu far before it was for 9/11.
http://www.visit-palau.com/60thanniv/history.html
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
04-06-2014, 09:55 PM
#24
Thanks for the history lesson, I never knew that before today. It's interesting because my grandfather served on the USS Wilkes Barre which was involved in the Pacific theater starting around 11-19-1944.
http://navysite.de/cl/cl103.htm
To me it was/is a saying that we had place on the sides of West Redding E1 and T4 in remembrance for the brothers that we lost on that day. The first time that I had seen it, it was written on the side of what was left of Rescue 3 while I was working at ground zero as a responder. A time in my life that I will never forget, at the same time I don't want to remember.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-06-2014, 09:55 PM #24I have thought about running a compound or a twin charge setup before, but with how quickly the technology changes I figured that a variable vane/geometry turbo retro fitted to run off the vacuum system would work. If there is another way to do, well as Ross Perot once said "I'm all ears".
Thanks for the history lesson, I never knew that before today. It's interesting because my grandfather served on the USS Wilkes Barre which was involved in the Pacific theater starting around 11-19-1944.
http://navysite.de/cl/cl103.htm
To me it was/is a saying that we had place on the sides of West Redding E1 and T4 in remembrance for the brothers that we lost on that day. The first time that I had seen it, it was written on the side of what was left of Rescue 3 while I was working at ground zero as a responder. A time in my life that I will never forget, at the same time I don't want to remember.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-07-2014, 10:47 AM
#25
(04-03-2014, 11:09 AM)OM616 I always brake out in a chuckle every time some one says "there is a market it the USA for MW superpump work"... There are a few shops that have been identified on this forum that will do the work, and several pumps shops that hot rod P pumps would be willing to do it as well, but how many actually are willing to pay to have the work done? lol.. I don't have to take off my shoes to count them
OM616 - I hear you. Nearly everyone interested in the 80's vintage MBZs undoubtedly was originally attracted by the low price of the hardware. What I am finding is that, like nearly all German cars, performance improvements are very costly in time & money. The '84 300D that I drive needs improvements in nearly every single category (brakes, trans, IP, turbo, sway bars, shocks, etc. )- which I have been willing to do at my own pace. I am now about to remove the exhaust/intake and rebuild/mod the turbo a second time, repair a leak in the modded intake, install a air/water intercooler with associated plumbing, pump, liquid radiator, etc.. Next on the list: rebuild the trans and add disks to the clutch packs. But jeeze... at some point you just roll your eyes. Some of us pay too much...
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
04-07-2014, 10:47 AM #25(04-03-2014, 11:09 AM)OM616 I always brake out in a chuckle every time some one says "there is a market it the USA for MW superpump work"... There are a few shops that have been identified on this forum that will do the work, and several pumps shops that hot rod P pumps would be willing to do it as well, but how many actually are willing to pay to have the work done? lol.. I don't have to take off my shoes to count them
OM616 - I hear you. Nearly everyone interested in the 80's vintage MBZs undoubtedly was originally attracted by the low price of the hardware. What I am finding is that, like nearly all German cars, performance improvements are very costly in time & money. The '84 300D that I drive needs improvements in nearly every single category (brakes, trans, IP, turbo, sway bars, shocks, etc. )- which I have been willing to do at my own pace. I am now about to remove the exhaust/intake and rebuild/mod the turbo a second time, repair a leak in the modded intake, install a air/water intercooler with associated plumbing, pump, liquid radiator, etc.. Next on the list: rebuild the trans and add disks to the clutch packs. But jeeze... at some point you just roll your eyes. Some of us pay too much...
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
04-07-2014, 10:54 PM
#26
(04-03-2014, 09:58 PM)ShaggyDiesel snip...
Any rate back to the engine, are these levels possible out of the 617? I know I can get this out of a 5.9 12v p-pump with hand tools a weekend and less than 500 bucks in parts.
adapt and overcome.
Getting those power levels from a 617a may be possible for a few seconds before something goes crunch. To keep the crunches away you will spend many hours & dollars over the long haul. So no, a weekend and 500 bucks will net you very little from a 617a.
I personally am hoping to get about 175 hp and maybe 250 ftlbs. or so without having to go to a 8mm pump and a vnt turbo. I plan on rebuilding the automatic trans anyway, to beef up the clutch packs. My current t3 uses a stage II turbine and cast 60 trim compressor wheel, and although it is way better than stock, it does not spool fast enough for me. Over the next few weeks, I will be building my second custom t3 using a billet 60 trim compressor wheel which is lighter than the cast wheel, and the stock turbine which spools faster, but generates more back pressure and higher intake temperatures.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
04-07-2014, 10:54 PM #26(04-03-2014, 09:58 PM)ShaggyDiesel snip...
Any rate back to the engine, are these levels possible out of the 617? I know I can get this out of a 5.9 12v p-pump with hand tools a weekend and less than 500 bucks in parts.
adapt and overcome.
Getting those power levels from a 617a may be possible for a few seconds before something goes crunch. To keep the crunches away you will spend many hours & dollars over the long haul. So no, a weekend and 500 bucks will net you very little from a 617a.
I personally am hoping to get about 175 hp and maybe 250 ftlbs. or so without having to go to a 8mm pump and a vnt turbo. I plan on rebuilding the automatic trans anyway, to beef up the clutch packs. My current t3 uses a stage II turbine and cast 60 trim compressor wheel, and although it is way better than stock, it does not spool fast enough for me. Over the next few weeks, I will be building my second custom t3 using a billet 60 trim compressor wheel which is lighter than the cast wheel, and the stock turbine which spools faster, but generates more back pressure and higher intake temperatures.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
04-08-2014, 08:11 AM
#27
Ed
yankneck696
04-08-2014, 08:11 AM #27I refuse to skimp. If I can find real proof that I can stuff the OM617 in a 3.0 Toyota 4X4 without the SAS, I will go with an 8MM pump & a VNT/VGT/VE turbo to make it smokeless & utilize every BTU in the fuel that I can. I look at it this way, for a stock replacement VP44 in my 24 valve Cummins rated at 235HP, I pay right around 1K. I have no issue paying more than that for comperable HP in a Toyota as my wife's DD. It'll also do much better MPGs that the gutless dinosaur eating 3.Slow in it.
Ed
04-09-2014, 05:18 PM
#28
ed, not sure what toyota you're looking to put a cummins in, a 6bt as you know that's 1100+ lbs, unless you thinking a 4bt which iirc it's right around the same weight as the 617. the 4bt can use most of the performance parts from the 6bt where as 617 pretty much on your own. either way they're both drop in and i know there's a couple of companies making them for toyotas and jeeps.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-09-2014, 05:18 PM #28kestreltom, this is a complete ground up build, i figure there's going to be some breakage, but that's to be expected. personally i think that i have set the power bar pretty high, only money, time and dyne will tell.
ed, not sure what toyota you're looking to put a cummins in, a 6bt as you know that's 1100+ lbs, unless you thinking a 4bt which iirc it's right around the same weight as the 617. the 4bt can use most of the performance parts from the 6bt where as 617 pretty much on your own. either way they're both drop in and i know there's a couple of companies making them for toyotas and jeeps.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-09-2014, 05:27 PM
#29
raysorenson
04-09-2014, 05:27 PM #29Check JTY's build thread. It's a monster 617. Lots of head work, I understand.
04-09-2014, 11:52 PM
#30
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-09-2014, 11:52 PM #30ray, what a great write up, now that's giving me even more ideas.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-10-2014, 04:08 PM
#31
The Cummins is in my 01 2500 Dodge, but will go into a 43 GMC 2 1/2 tonner with D80 rears & either a custom D80 or 14 bolt for the front.
Ed
yankneck696
04-10-2014, 04:08 PM #31I plan on OM 617 in the Toyota. Goran's (Or his american affiliate) 8mm pump & HE351VE turbo. The issue with the Toyota is that I have never seen pictures of it done in an IFS 3.0 Toyota. By my understanding, the trans sits further forward & might need the radiator moved forward. Then, I would need the AC & an intercooler. I want about 250 HP of clean smooth OM617 in the wife's truck without looking like an abortion. I would have 2 weeks to get it done.
The Cummins is in my 01 2500 Dodge, but will go into a 43 GMC 2 1/2 tonner with D80 rears & either a custom D80 or 14 bolt for the front.
Ed
04-10-2014, 09:36 PM
#32
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-10-2014, 09:36 PM #32ed, the only swaps that i've seen with Toyotas have been using straight front axle conversion. with an ifs, it should be able to hold the weight fine, using electric fans for cooling, personally i would use at the transmission from the tundra (that is if it will hook up to the 617). your cummins project sound pretty damn cool, i love the old iron.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-11-2014, 06:42 AM
#33
(04-09-2014, 05:18 PM)ShaggyDiesel kestreltom, this is a complete ground up build, i figure there's going to be some breakage, but that's to be expected. personally i think that i have set the power bar pretty high, only money, time and dyne will tell.
You are ambitious... all power to you!
I checked the JTY build referred to above. I remember reading that before. Very impressive build. Maybe DieselMenken will sell you his 8mm MW pump.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
04-11-2014, 06:42 AM #33(04-09-2014, 05:18 PM)ShaggyDiesel kestreltom, this is a complete ground up build, i figure there's going to be some breakage, but that's to be expected. personally i think that i have set the power bar pretty high, only money, time and dyne will tell.
You are ambitious... all power to you!
I checked the JTY build referred to above. I remember reading that before. Very impressive build. Maybe DieselMenken will sell you his 8mm MW pump.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
04-11-2014, 11:36 AM
#34
raysorenson
04-11-2014, 11:36 AM #34The 617 probably won't spool a 351 vnt. Even a 341 would be pretty miserable. Both turbos are a little oversized for just 250hp. I would start with an HX30 and see how much I could wring out of it.
04-11-2014, 02:19 PM
#35
Ed
yankneck696
04-11-2014, 02:19 PM #35I will have complete control over the 351 or 341VE turbo. No silly vacuum systems, a real microprocessor control with drive, boost, TPS & RPM inputs. Trying to keep it as close to 1:1 pressure ratio. If those turbos do not work, I'll get a Sprinter or one of the Garret VGTs. I am just plain done with antiquated turbo controls & in this modern world, so much can be done.
Ed
04-11-2014, 02:24 PM
#36
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
04-11-2014, 02:24 PM #36Just get the chinahanji 10mm mw pump elements, and have them set up by the shop in southern California, for about 80-90cc fuel
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
04-11-2014, 03:34 PM
#37
(04-11-2014, 06:42 AM)kestreltom(04-09-2014, 05:18 PM)ShaggyDiesel kestreltom, this is a complete ground up build, i figure there's going to be some breakage, but that's to be expected. personally i think that i have set the power bar pretty high, only money, time and dyno will tell.
You are ambitious... all power to you!
I checked the JTY build referred to above. I remember reading that before. Very impressive build. Maybe DieselMenken will sell you his 8mm MW pump.
thanks, unfortunately or fortunately (depending how you look at it) life threw me a curve ball this year, so i have more time with the family and time to get back into my diesel passion. plus i get to fully resto-mod a car that i've owned 17 years and use it as a chance to teach my kids.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-11-2014, 03:34 PM #37(04-11-2014, 06:42 AM)kestreltom(04-09-2014, 05:18 PM)ShaggyDiesel kestreltom, this is a complete ground up build, i figure there's going to be some breakage, but that's to be expected. personally i think that i have set the power bar pretty high, only money, time and dyno will tell.
You are ambitious... all power to you!
I checked the JTY build referred to above. I remember reading that before. Very impressive build. Maybe DieselMenken will sell you his 8mm MW pump.
thanks, unfortunately or fortunately (depending how you look at it) life threw me a curve ball this year, so i have more time with the family and time to get back into my diesel passion. plus i get to fully resto-mod a car that i've owned 17 years and use it as a chance to teach my kids.
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
04-24-2014, 10:46 PM
#38
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
ShaggyDiesel
04-24-2014, 10:46 PM #38has anyone tried using the elements from the Cummins P-pump? also are the modifed mw elements coming out of the Volvo penta marine engines?
All gave some, Some gave it all ~ 9/11 Never Forget
People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear its people.
09-19-2014, 08:10 PM
#39
(04-06-2014, 04:12 PM)MTUPower The problem is not fueling- it's air. I've got a Myna pump and it's not much better than my modified MW pump when turned down to avoid large amounts of smoke. It's a daily driver so I can't be smoking out the road everytime I wish to pass someone. A VNT system is not easy to build with satisfaction as a result. I think I'll have to go with a small ball bearing turbo to get the air I need for the fuel capability. Those are high dollar.
I do not understand why the "VNT system is hard to build with satisfaction." Do you mean it will smoke a lot? I would expect your pump to still have an active ALDA or compensation for boost pressure, right?
Also, which small ball bearing turbo are you thinking about? I am leaning toward the electronic VNT controller and an 8mm MW pump with the Sprinter turbo. I haven't heard anyone say a small turbo will give comparable spool up times to anything with variable vanes, so I am curious about that.
Also, regarding kellstom's post, how many people have actually had a 722.3 transmission fail due to engine mods on an OM617? I have never heard of that. No one ever gets enough power out of it. That transmission is pretty tough and should be fine for 250hp I would think.
Karl
atypicalguy
09-19-2014, 08:10 PM #39(04-06-2014, 04:12 PM)MTUPower The problem is not fueling- it's air. I've got a Myna pump and it's not much better than my modified MW pump when turned down to avoid large amounts of smoke. It's a daily driver so I can't be smoking out the road everytime I wish to pass someone. A VNT system is not easy to build with satisfaction as a result. I think I'll have to go with a small ball bearing turbo to get the air I need for the fuel capability. Those are high dollar.
I do not understand why the "VNT system is hard to build with satisfaction." Do you mean it will smoke a lot? I would expect your pump to still have an active ALDA or compensation for boost pressure, right?
Also, which small ball bearing turbo are you thinking about? I am leaning toward the electronic VNT controller and an 8mm MW pump with the Sprinter turbo. I haven't heard anyone say a small turbo will give comparable spool up times to anything with variable vanes, so I am curious about that.
Also, regarding kellstom's post, how many people have actually had a 722.3 transmission fail due to engine mods on an OM617? I have never heard of that. No one ever gets enough power out of it. That transmission is pretty tough and should be fine for 250hp I would think.
Karl
09-19-2014, 08:58 PM
#40
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
09-19-2014, 08:58 PM #40Speaking as someone who had a VNT and no longer does, MTU is right, a VNT system is very difficult to get right, and very difficult to get the right turbo. If you intend to make real power on a 617, the 56mm compressor wheel of the gt2056v and gt2256v is too small. As is the hot side.
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
09-20-2014, 10:28 AM
#41
(09-19-2014, 08:58 PM)led-panzer Speaking as someone who had a VNT and no longer does, MTU is right, a VNT system is very difficult to get right, and very difficult to get the right turbo. If you intend to make real power on a 617, the 56mm compressor wheel of the gt2056v and gt2256v is too small. As is the hot side.
I dont reallt expect it to be easy, but it seems like there are better electronic control optikns and using two pressure pots and a throttle positikn sensor with a properly sized vnt I would think this would be doable given enpugh fuel.
I am curious to know 1) what difficulties you encountered 2) what vnt turbo ypu recommend and 3) what you would add to the list below:
Anticipated tasks for generic om617a turbo mod plan:
1. Plumbing of air channels at intake and exhaust (turbo adapter plate, new downpipe,
2. Intercooler plumbing - fab from existing NA runner feet vs other
3. Modified pump messing up automatic transmission shifting - shifter kit?
4. Alda not functioning properly on modified pump
5. Proper oil supply pressure to turbo
6. Selecting and Buying the properly sized turbo for the job
7. EGT and boost gauge and sensor installation
8. New head gasket?
9. New timing chain
Problems/tasks specific to vnt turbo mod:
1. Getting tps to work correctly and feed the controller (Ole Fejer type)
2. Install pressure sensors in intake and exhaust manifold outlet
3. Programming correct control curves into controller
4. And....?
My goal is a daily driver with a vnt that works like my sprinter and touareg vnts work. I.e. no smoke, better power. Is is an 85 td and actually it is not very slow now; everything works fine. My plan is to fab new system up on a spare 300D motor/car and transplant the components when done.
atypicalguy
09-20-2014, 10:28 AM #41(09-19-2014, 08:58 PM)led-panzer Speaking as someone who had a VNT and no longer does, MTU is right, a VNT system is very difficult to get right, and very difficult to get the right turbo. If you intend to make real power on a 617, the 56mm compressor wheel of the gt2056v and gt2256v is too small. As is the hot side.
I dont reallt expect it to be easy, but it seems like there are better electronic control optikns and using two pressure pots and a throttle positikn sensor with a properly sized vnt I would think this would be doable given enpugh fuel.
I am curious to know 1) what difficulties you encountered 2) what vnt turbo ypu recommend and 3) what you would add to the list below:
Anticipated tasks for generic om617a turbo mod plan:
1. Plumbing of air channels at intake and exhaust (turbo adapter plate, new downpipe,
2. Intercooler plumbing - fab from existing NA runner feet vs other
3. Modified pump messing up automatic transmission shifting - shifter kit?
4. Alda not functioning properly on modified pump
5. Proper oil supply pressure to turbo
6. Selecting and Buying the properly sized turbo for the job
7. EGT and boost gauge and sensor installation
8. New head gasket?
9. New timing chain
Problems/tasks specific to vnt turbo mod:
1. Getting tps to work correctly and feed the controller (Ole Fejer type)
2. Install pressure sensors in intake and exhaust manifold outlet
3. Programming correct control curves into controller
4. And....?
My goal is a daily driver with a vnt that works like my sprinter and touareg vnts work. I.e. no smoke, better power. Is is an 85 td and actually it is not very slow now; everything works fine. My plan is to fab new system up on a spare 300D motor/car and transplant the components when done.
12-07-2014, 02:01 PM
#42
(09-20-2014, 10:28 AM)atypicalguy I dont reallt expect it to be easy, but it seems like there are better electronic control optikns and using two pressure pots and a throttle positikn sensor with a properly sized vnt I would think this would be doable given enpugh fuel.
I am curious to know 1) what difficulties you encountered 2) what vnt turbo ypu recommend and 3) what you would add to the list below:
I just finished building an electronic controller for my gt2256vt. The controller was designed by a guy in Finland, and it looks good on the bench. See here: http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/
I posted schematic and pcb design information for a adapter/shield in the discussion on that page.
I will post a new thread here on the std as soon as I get mine installed and have some data.
Since I am installing the gt2256 and A/W intercooler anyway, the ultimate would be to get Olefeher's controller and upgrade the trasmission along with a new 8mm pump from DieselMeken since Olefeher's controller has a built in component for a vnt turbo. As DieselMeken mentioned, the first customer to install his 8mm pump on a 617a & automatic started experiencing transmission slippage under full boost.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
12-07-2014, 02:01 PM #42(09-20-2014, 10:28 AM)atypicalguy I dont reallt expect it to be easy, but it seems like there are better electronic control optikns and using two pressure pots and a throttle positikn sensor with a properly sized vnt I would think this would be doable given enpugh fuel.
I am curious to know 1) what difficulties you encountered 2) what vnt turbo ypu recommend and 3) what you would add to the list below:
I just finished building an electronic controller for my gt2256vt. The controller was designed by a guy in Finland, and it looks good on the bench. See here: http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/
I posted schematic and pcb design information for a adapter/shield in the discussion on that page.
I will post a new thread here on the std as soon as I get mine installed and have some data.
Since I am installing the gt2256 and A/W intercooler anyway, the ultimate would be to get Olefeher's controller and upgrade the trasmission along with a new 8mm pump from DieselMeken since Olefeher's controller has a built in component for a vnt turbo. As DieselMeken mentioned, the first customer to install his 8mm pump on a 617a & automatic started experiencing transmission slippage under full boost.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
01-29-2015, 02:03 AM
#43
atypicalguy
01-29-2015, 02:03 AM #43Yah he also said the engine would die for some reason they could not figure out and there hasnt been much action that I have seen. Whats the latest mw ip news out of Germany?
01-29-2015, 01:41 PM
#44
This post was last modified: 01-29-2015, 01:42 PM by MTUPower.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
We hear lots of stories about systems which folks are building or have built and will test in reference to controlling any VNT for a 617-95X. No one has come back with a system which others then can replicate with satisfaction- IE little smoke, lots of torque low in the rpm range and still enough boost in the higher rpm range. Just has not taken place and it's not for lack of trying. I'd love to be able to put such a system on my wagon- it's already quite advance in every other area: I have a MYNA pump, I have the VW two stage injectors, I have a IC, no EGR intake and exhaust manifold which is JetHot like coated. I have the custom HD lowering springs up front with HD shocks. It's one of the first w123's with w126 discs and calipers. I've got both 15 and 16 inch wheels. I'm installing the enlarged hole PC's as we speak. Next is most likely a spool up valve and a larger exhaust all the way back. I don't have the rear muffler now, and that made a noticeable difference itself. I'm hoping for another noticeable difference with the modified PC's. Even with all this I doubt I'm putting out more than 180hp with the IP set at it's lowest setting- which it needs to be so I can have a daily driver that does not emit large amounts of smoke.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
02-10-2015, 09:52 AM
#45
(01-29-2015, 01:41 PM)MTUPower ... I have a MYNA pump, I have the VW two stage injectors, I have a IC, no EGR intake and exhaust manifold which is JetHot like coated. I have the custom HD lowering springs up front with HD shocks. It's one of the first w123's with w126 discs and calipers. I've got both 15 and 16 inch wheels. I'm installing the enlarged hole PC's as we speak. Next is ...
Hey MTUPower,
Why not stick all that info in your signature... and save your fingers for the next turbo / spool valve install ?!
btw... does your turbo have a twin scroll turbine housing? What model is it?
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
02-10-2015, 09:52 AM #45(01-29-2015, 01:41 PM)MTUPower ... I have a MYNA pump, I have the VW two stage injectors, I have a IC, no EGR intake and exhaust manifold which is JetHot like coated. I have the custom HD lowering springs up front with HD shocks. It's one of the first w123's with w126 discs and calipers. I've got both 15 and 16 inch wheels. I'm installing the enlarged hole PC's as we speak. Next is ...
Hey MTUPower,
Why not stick all that info in your signature... and save your fingers for the next turbo / spool valve install ?!
btw... does your turbo have a twin scroll turbine housing? What model is it?
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
02-10-2015, 10:29 AM
#46
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
My wagon is a 1984 300TD with stock turbo which I believe is the Garrett. Yes it has the t3 twin scroll. A spool up valve may be in order, but each mod takes time.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
02-10-2015, 11:07 AM
#47
(02-10-2015, 10:29 AM)MTUPower My wagon is a 1984 300TD with stock turbo which I believe is the Garrett. Yes it has the t3 twin scroll. A spool up valve may be in order, but each mod takes time.
Wow... I wasn't aware that Garrett made a twin scroll T3 back then.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
02-10-2015, 11:07 AM #47(02-10-2015, 10:29 AM)MTUPower My wagon is a 1984 300TD with stock turbo which I believe is the Garrett. Yes it has the t3 twin scroll. A spool up valve may be in order, but each mod takes time.
Wow... I wasn't aware that Garrett made a twin scroll T3 back then.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
02-11-2015, 09:09 AM
#48
(02-10-2015, 11:07 AM)kestreltomShoots I answered too fast- it's a just a T3.(02-10-2015, 10:29 AM)MTUPower My wagon is a 1984 300TD with stock turbo which I believe is the Garrett. Yes it has the t3 twin scroll. A spool up valve may be in order, but each mod takes time.
Wow... I wasn't aware that Garrett made a twin scroll T3 back then.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
(02-10-2015, 11:07 AM)kestreltomShoots I answered too fast- it's a just a T3.(02-10-2015, 10:29 AM)MTUPower My wagon is a 1984 300TD with stock turbo which I believe is the Garrett. Yes it has the t3 twin scroll. A spool up valve may be in order, but each mod takes time.
Wow... I wasn't aware that Garrett made a twin scroll T3 back then.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
02-11-2015, 05:38 PM
#49
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...348&page=2
raysorenson
02-11-2015, 05:38 PM #49A guy on this forum, Synchro_G, made a "variable pressure ball spring valve", which appears to be an MBC with a very long, soft spring that's attached to throttle linkage. More throttle increases spring pressure, which in turn increases boost pressure. Seems to be pretty much all you need for a diesel.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...348&page=2
02-13-2015, 08:13 AM
#50
(02-11-2015, 09:09 AM)MTUPower Shoots I answered too fast- it's a just a T3.
Ya... If their is something that can be done to the stock T3 to improve it, I think I've already been there...
I have already modified mine to accept a "stage II" exhaust impeller, and 60mm cast compressor wheel. The next upgrade would have been to install a billet compressor wheel - but I am already set to install the gt2256 with a custom arduino controller. The arduino takes boost, throttle position, and rpm inputs and outputs a duty cycle signal for a vacuum valve controller such as the N75. I hope to get it installed this spring.
![[Image: 20141102_150750.jpg]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ywCftCDz3cM/VFarX10p_cI/AAAAAAAAH7M/yYUNulZf03s/w561-h421-no/20141102_150750.jpg)
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
02-13-2015, 08:13 AM #50(02-11-2015, 09:09 AM)MTUPower Shoots I answered too fast- it's a just a T3.
Ya... If their is something that can be done to the stock T3 to improve it, I think I've already been there...
I have already modified mine to accept a "stage II" exhaust impeller, and 60mm cast compressor wheel. The next upgrade would have been to install a billet compressor wheel - but I am already set to install the gt2256 with a custom arduino controller. The arduino takes boost, throttle position, and rpm inputs and outputs a duty cycle signal for a vacuum valve controller such as the N75. I hope to get it installed this spring.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
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