Which AR turbine housing size?
Which AR turbine housing size?
07-17-2015, 07:17 AM
#1
Is there a generally regarded 'normal' sized AR housing for the aftermarket turbos being fitted to tuned OM606s? I have seen a few of the larger turbos running very large AR exhaust housings (over 1.2 etc) which would probably be quite laggy but would support a much larger compressor.
As I will be using the stock rev limit I won't be needing to go too large, and will ideally be looking for somewhere that still gives good response low down rather than having a powerband too top end.
Not sure what size the normal HX35s usually have fitted to them - still tempted to fit a VNT/VGT turbo however which would negate most of the issues with low down power.
Hi all,
Is there a generally regarded 'normal' sized AR housing for the aftermarket turbos being fitted to tuned OM606s? I have seen a few of the larger turbos running very large AR exhaust housings (over 1.2 etc) which would probably be quite laggy but would support a much larger compressor.
As I will be using the stock rev limit I won't be needing to go too large, and will ideally be looking for somewhere that still gives good response low down rather than having a powerband too top end.
Not sure what size the normal HX35s usually have fitted to them - still tempted to fit a VNT/VGT turbo however which would negate most of the issues with low down power.
07-23-2015, 09:56 AM
#2
50harleyrider
07-23-2015, 09:56 AM #2I've been doing some research on a turbo upgrade on my 606 swap. Look at the range of the A/R available on that turbo and if you want a compromise of low end vs high end choose the middle or smaller for your need. I'm about ready to give up on Holsets and look for a 3 series garrett for quick spool. They come with T3 flanges too and you can get an adapter from DPUK if you're like me and can't justify big money for a header. Let me know what you end up with.
07-23-2015, 12:18 PM
#3
Duncansport
07-23-2015, 12:18 PM #3HE351CW's have a really small ar housing and a nicely routed internal gate. They also use the same comp wheel as a HX40. Really a great turbo...
07-23-2015, 02:53 PM
#4
50harleyrider
07-23-2015, 02:53 PM #4How do they spool up from 1000-2000 rpm. Would they work ok on an m pumped 606.962 and the cast iron oem header in the 250hp range? I hear about holsets spooling quickly but it's usually in comparison to other Holsets
07-24-2015, 06:43 AM
#6
50harleyrider
07-24-2015, 06:43 AM #6Makes since. That's a popular turbo with the 4bt cummins crowd which is a lot closer in size to our 3.0 MB engines size (4bt can't compare in smoothness and engine noise). I have to remember most guys on here are after big HP gains and don't care if the turbo performs well below 2000 RPM. Thanks, Petar. What do you mean by HX30 super? Hopefully this info helps the OP since it is his thread.
07-24-2015, 07:27 AM
#7
(07-23-2015, 03:33 PM)Petar Way too big for only 250 HP. A HX30 super would work well and still get very good spool IMHO.True
Duncansport
07-24-2015, 07:27 AM #7(07-23-2015, 03:33 PM)Petar Way too big for only 250 HP. A HX30 super would work well and still get very good spool IMHO.True
07-24-2015, 07:51 AM
#8
(07-24-2015, 06:43 AM)50harleyrider Makes since. That's a popular turbo with the 4bt cummins crowd which is a lot closer in size to our 3.0 MB engines size (4bt can't compare in smoothness and engine noise). I have to remember most guys on here are after big HP gains and don't care if the turbo performs well below 2000 RPM. Thanks, Petar. What do you mean by HX30 super? Hopefully this info helps the OP since it is his thread.
I think the issue is the 606 revs to twice the speed of the 4BT so the turbo's air flow requirement is quite a bit more.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(07-24-2015, 06:43 AM)50harleyrider Makes since. That's a popular turbo with the 4bt cummins crowd which is a lot closer in size to our 3.0 MB engines size (4bt can't compare in smoothness and engine noise). I have to remember most guys on here are after big HP gains and don't care if the turbo performs well below 2000 RPM. Thanks, Petar. What do you mean by HX30 super? Hopefully this info helps the OP since it is his thread.
I think the issue is the 606 revs to twice the speed of the 4BT so the turbo's air flow requirement is quite a bit more.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
07-24-2015, 09:28 AM
#9
(07-24-2015, 06:43 AM)50harleyrider ....What do you mean by HX30 super?....
It's a HX30 with a slightly bigger compressor wheel.
@Hario
The power output is pretty much limited by turbocharger airflow. The only difference is in spool time, with more displacement you'll get faster spool for a given turbo if all other factors are equal.
This post was last modified: 07-24-2015, 09:36 AM by Petar.
(07-24-2015, 06:43 AM)50harleyrider ....What do you mean by HX30 super?....
It's a HX30 with a slightly bigger compressor wheel.
@Hario
The power output is pretty much limited by turbocharger airflow. The only difference is in spool time, with more displacement you'll get faster spool for a given turbo if all other factors are equal.
07-26-2015, 02:26 PM
#10
(07-23-2015, 12:18 PM)Duncansport HE351CW's have a really small ar housing and a nicely routed internal gate. They also use the same comp wheel as a HX40. Really a great turbo...
Thanks for that, yeah I am looking at this sort of size, will be running 8mm elements, the manifold adapter I will be getting from dieselpumpUK had an external wastegate option. Ideally I would go for an internally wastegated turbo as it would be simpler to plumb in.
A VNT/VGT turbo is also an option and I guess a smaller AR would be ok to give a quicker spool - I am guessing the HE351V would be the equivalent of the internally wastegated turbo?
(07-23-2015, 12:18 PM)Duncansport HE351CW's have a really small ar housing and a nicely routed internal gate. They also use the same comp wheel as a HX40. Really a great turbo...
Thanks for that, yeah I am looking at this sort of size, will be running 8mm elements, the manifold adapter I will be getting from dieselpumpUK had an external wastegate option. Ideally I would go for an internally wastegated turbo as it would be simpler to plumb in.
A VNT/VGT turbo is also an option and I guess a smaller AR would be ok to give a quicker spool - I am guessing the HE351V would be the equivalent of the internally wastegated turbo?
07-27-2015, 07:34 AM
#11
M1tch your goal is in the 400+ hp range? 8mm is big.
This post was last modified: 07-27-2015, 07:37 AM by 50harleyrider.
50harleyrider
07-27-2015, 07:34 AM #11I've finally made contact with Dieselmeken and am ordering a 7.5 mm pump from him now. I also am asking him about which turbo to run with my 250hp goal. I asked him about a super hx30w also. I need to find a source for that turbo. Maybe Dieselmeken can get it. Will be curious to hear his response and will post it up here. I drove my e300 donor around last night to make sure there are no issues. This is a fantastic engine. So smooth,quiet and powerful even stock. Glad I opted out of Cummins.
M1tch your goal is in the 400+ hp range? 8mm is big.
07-28-2015, 03:24 PM
#12
(07-27-2015, 07:34 AM)50harleyrider I've finally made contact with Dieselmeken and am ordering a 7.5 mm pump from him now. I also am asking him about which turbo to run with my 250hp goal. I asked him about a super hx30w also. I need to find a source for that turbo. Maybe Dieselmeken can get it. Will be curious to hear his response and will post it up here. I drove my e300 donor around last night to make sure there are no issues. This is a fantastic engine. So smooth,quiet and powerful even stock. Glad I opted out of Cummins.
M1tch your goal is in the 400+ hp range? 8mm is big.
Yeah, the car is going to be used for drag racing but keeping the stock estate body, I am also going to be running the stock EDC pump which has a slight limit to rack travel vs the OM603 mechanical pump so going slightly larger would compensate.
This post was last modified: 07-28-2015, 03:25 PM by m1tch.
(07-27-2015, 07:34 AM)50harleyrider I've finally made contact with Dieselmeken and am ordering a 7.5 mm pump from him now. I also am asking him about which turbo to run with my 250hp goal. I asked him about a super hx30w also. I need to find a source for that turbo. Maybe Dieselmeken can get it. Will be curious to hear his response and will post it up here. I drove my e300 donor around last night to make sure there are no issues. This is a fantastic engine. So smooth,quiet and powerful even stock. Glad I opted out of Cummins.
M1tch your goal is in the 400+ hp range? 8mm is big.
Yeah, the car is going to be used for drag racing but keeping the stock estate body, I am also going to be running the stock EDC pump which has a slight limit to rack travel vs the OM603 mechanical pump so going slightly larger would compensate.
07-29-2015, 10:01 AM
#13
50harleyrider
07-29-2015, 10:01 AM #13That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
07-29-2015, 01:23 PM
#14
(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
07-29-2015, 03:08 PM
#15
(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)m1tch(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
I would consider keeping the EDC and sending off to Dieselmeken for an element upgrade as I'm only looking for 250-300 HP and it would be nice not to have to buy a standalone boost controller. I will require a TCU for my Ford tranny and am afraid the MB ecu needs communication from too many modules like the 722.6 TCU, ABS module, dash module, immobilizer, etc. The good part is I have the entire donor car. I am having a hard time communicating with Dieselmeken. Maybe he checks his emails infrequently.
50harleyrider
07-29-2015, 03:08 PM #15(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)m1tch(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
I would consider keeping the EDC and sending off to Dieselmeken for an element upgrade as I'm only looking for 250-300 HP and it would be nice not to have to buy a standalone boost controller. I will require a TCU for my Ford tranny and am afraid the MB ecu needs communication from too many modules like the 722.6 TCU, ABS module, dash module, immobilizer, etc. The good part is I have the entire donor car. I am having a hard time communicating with Dieselmeken. Maybe he checks his emails infrequently.
07-30-2015, 01:55 AM
#16
(07-29-2015, 03:08 PM)50harleyrider(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)m1tch(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
I would consider keeping the EDC and sending off to Dieselmeken for an element upgrade as I'm only looking for 250-300 HP and it would be nice not to have to buy a standalone boost controller. I will require a TCU for my Ford tranny and am afraid the MB ecu needs communication from too many modules like the 722.6 TCU, ABS module, dash module, immobilizer, etc. The good part is I have the entire donor car. I am having a hard time communicating with Dieselmeken. Maybe he checks his emails infrequently.
The issue I have with boost control is that the system uses a vacuum wastegate actuator not a boost actuated actuator - you can easily swap over the wastegate actuator and simply run a boost line from the inlet manifold meaning that the boost control isn't controlled by the ECU anymore. I am in the same position as you as there are so many things the MB ECU needs from different modules etc which is why I want to keep my EDC.
(07-29-2015, 03:08 PM)50harleyrider(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)m1tch(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
I would consider keeping the EDC and sending off to Dieselmeken for an element upgrade as I'm only looking for 250-300 HP and it would be nice not to have to buy a standalone boost controller. I will require a TCU for my Ford tranny and am afraid the MB ecu needs communication from too many modules like the 722.6 TCU, ABS module, dash module, immobilizer, etc. The good part is I have the entire donor car. I am having a hard time communicating with Dieselmeken. Maybe he checks his emails infrequently.
The issue I have with boost control is that the system uses a vacuum wastegate actuator not a boost actuated actuator - you can easily swap over the wastegate actuator and simply run a boost line from the inlet manifold meaning that the boost control isn't controlled by the ECU anymore. I am in the same position as you as there are so many things the MB ECU needs from different modules etc which is why I want to keep my EDC.
07-30-2015, 03:46 AM
#17
(07-29-2015, 03:08 PM)50harleyrider(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)m1tch(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
I would consider keeping the EDC and sending off to Dieselmeken for an element upgrade as I'm only looking for 250-300 HP and it would be nice not to have to buy a standalone boost controller. I will require a TCU for my Ford tranny and am afraid the MB ecu needs communication from too many modules like the 722.6 TCU, ABS module, dash module, immobilizer, etc. The good part is I have the entire donor car. I am having a hard time communicating with Dieselmeken. Maybe he checks his emails infrequently.
Dieselmeken is on vacation. He will be back at work next week I believe and is good at returning emails from my own experience and others I've talked to have stated the same.
(07-29-2015, 03:08 PM)50harleyrider(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)m1tch(07-29-2015, 10:01 AM)50harleyrider That's interesting. So who doing your ecu tune and modifying your EDC? What size elements and what is your HP goal? I've heard so much negative about modifying either that I've decided to go Dieselmeken om603 which doesn't require ecu and will still give a nice range of HP and good driveability and economy. Are you in unchartered water or have you actually seen good results with the EDC pump mods.
I have a spare OM603 pump in the garage, the issue being is that I would need to convert a LOT of things to make it work as the ECU controls the fueling as well as the gearbox etc, so I would need to get a standalone gearbox controller as well as running manual lines to the pump, as well as needing to sort out a few other things so that it doesn't throw a code etc.
If you check out Dieselmeken's video on the EDC pump he is getting good flow out of them as the rack can also be adjusted along with the rack sensor - basically increasing rack travel. The thing about the EDC pump is that its identical to the mechanical pump, its just controlled via the ECU, also keeping the ECU means I can also use the boost solenoid to control a VGT turbo without needing another controller.
I will be looking to do an ECU remap or piggyback ECU at some point, but basically the ECU doesn't know how much fueling is going into the engine, only the rack position, so simply upgrading the elements to 8mm will give me 36% more fuel over the whole map - will just match this with a larger turbo.
140cc of fueling is fine for what I am after, I won't be increasing the rev limiter and the engine will be unopened, looking to get around 350-400bhp - main thing is the large amount of low down torque I am after so I am wanting a quicker spool without a restriction, still tempted to go twin charged with the supercharger feeding the turbo or vice versa.
I am also looking to use some water/meth injection as well - the added methanol will also be a fuel source without needing to upgrade the pump, propane injection was the other option.
Here is the video I mentioned about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0RZjbSbRvU
My plan is:
EDC pump
8mm elements
HX35/GT35 sized turbo (currently checking the compressor maps for a ratio of 3 @ 52lb/min)
Possible supercharger
Unopened engine
722.6 gearbox with upgraded AMG bluetop solinoids to increase line pressure
Auxiliary feed pump from tank
My key goal is to keep the car as stock looking as possible and maintain low down torque - not planning to rev above stock rev limiter and no point going massive power as it will be impossible to get traction.
I would consider keeping the EDC and sending off to Dieselmeken for an element upgrade as I'm only looking for 250-300 HP and it would be nice not to have to buy a standalone boost controller. I will require a TCU for my Ford tranny and am afraid the MB ecu needs communication from too many modules like the 722.6 TCU, ABS module, dash module, immobilizer, etc. The good part is I have the entire donor car. I am having a hard time communicating with Dieselmeken. Maybe he checks his emails infrequently.
Dieselmeken is on vacation. He will be back at work next week I believe and is good at returning emails from my own experience and others I've talked to have stated the same.
09-14-2015, 04:51 AM
#18
And leave the potentiometer in place to plug in your Ole controller which you need next..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
m1tch your 210 has cable throttle to the potentiometer under the bonnet, you need only link a throttle cable from the pot to the 603 IP.
And leave the potentiometer in place to plug in your Ole controller which you need next..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
09-14-2015, 06:37 AM
#19
(09-14-2015, 04:51 AM)Hario m1tch your 210 has cable throttle to the potentiometer under the bonnet, you need only link a throttle cable from the pot to the 603 IP.
And leave the potentiometer in place to plug in your Ole controller which you need next..
Would this still allow me to run the gearbox on the stock ECU as well or would it throw up codes due to the fact that the OEM electronic IP is unplugged or do I need to sort out the standalone gearbox controller first?
(09-14-2015, 04:51 AM)Hario m1tch your 210 has cable throttle to the potentiometer under the bonnet, you need only link a throttle cable from the pot to the 603 IP.
And leave the potentiometer in place to plug in your Ole controller which you need next..
Would this still allow me to run the gearbox on the stock ECU as well or would it throw up codes due to the fact that the OEM electronic IP is unplugged or do I need to sort out the standalone gearbox controller first?
09-14-2015, 06:44 AM
#20
I unplugged the EDC and turned the ignition on and the dash went haywire hence my thinking leaving the EDC [governor bit] connected (& removed from the 606 IP and stashed under the bonnet somewhere).
This post was last modified: 09-14-2015, 06:44 AM by Hario'.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
I planned to try that by leaving the stock EDC connected electronically but running the engine with a 603 IP, I thought it might not go into limp.. But I didn't get round to trying sorry..
I unplugged the EDC and turned the ignition on and the dash went haywire hence my thinking leaving the EDC [governor bit] connected (& removed from the 606 IP and stashed under the bonnet somewhere).
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
09-15-2015, 01:52 AM
#21
(09-14-2015, 06:44 AM)Hario I planned to try that by leaving the stock EDC connected electronically but running the engine with a 603 IP, I thought it might not go into limp.. But I didn't get round to trying sorry..
I unplugged the EDC and turned the ignition on and the dash went haywire hence my thinking leaving the EDC [governor bit] connected (& removed from the 606 IP and stashed under the bonnet somewhere).
Will have a think through some options, will probably just upgrade the stock EDC with larger 8mm elements which would retain all of the stock features and mean nothing goes into limp home mode. The ECU might also throw codes when there isn't any readings from the rack sensor etc, I guess its slightly harder on the W210 with regards to making everything compatible - the cruise control/speed limiter is actually really handy for a daily driver.
(09-14-2015, 06:44 AM)Hario I planned to try that by leaving the stock EDC connected electronically but running the engine with a 603 IP, I thought it might not go into limp.. But I didn't get round to trying sorry..
I unplugged the EDC and turned the ignition on and the dash went haywire hence my thinking leaving the EDC [governor bit] connected (& removed from the 606 IP and stashed under the bonnet somewhere).
Will have a think through some options, will probably just upgrade the stock EDC with larger 8mm elements which would retain all of the stock features and mean nothing goes into limp home mode. The ECU might also throw codes when there isn't any readings from the rack sensor etc, I guess its slightly harder on the W210 with regards to making everything compatible - the cruise control/speed limiter is actually really handy for a daily driver.
09-16-2015, 05:31 AM
#22
For example the ECU will push the rack closed trying to maintain 700rpm idle but 8mm elements provide so much fuel the ECU will push the rack to zero trying to bring the idle down.
If you fit a 603 IP you just have to take the 'BAS' bulb out the dash cluster (it lights up red) then all other functions run as normal. For example RPM is measured from the crank not the IP, and all the sensors will still work of course.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Without a remap it will not run well.
For example the ECU will push the rack closed trying to maintain 700rpm idle but 8mm elements provide so much fuel the ECU will push the rack to zero trying to bring the idle down.
If you fit a 603 IP you just have to take the 'BAS' bulb out the dash cluster (it lights up red) then all other functions run as normal. For example RPM is measured from the crank not the IP, and all the sensors will still work of course.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
09-16-2015, 06:43 AM
#23
(09-16-2015, 05:31 AM)Hario Without a remap it will not run well.
For example the ECU will push the rack closed trying to maintain 700rpm idle but 8mm elements provide so much fuel the ECU will push the rack to zero trying to bring the idle down.
If you fit a 603 IP you just have to take the 'BAS' bulb out the dash cluster (it lights up red) then all other functions run as normal. For example RPM is measured from the crank not the IP, and all the sensors will still work of course.
Good point about the additional fueling at idle, its a shame its going to be very very hard to find somewhere in the UK that can remap the ECU - will still look into fitting the OM603 pump as I have one spare in the garage.
I know that when Dieselmeken was adjusting the EDC pump with 8mm elements he simply reset the rack position sensor - eg reset it so that at idle the rack isn't moved quite as far as stock but then have additional rack travel through the rest of the throttle range.
I will have a look into how I might be able to adjust the idle enough with the larger elements - might just be a case that the car idles at 1,000 rpm rather than 750 or indeed see if the Alda can adjust the fueling slightly.
With the OM603 pump I would however lose the cruise control/speed limiter which I am finding rather useful though - might be able to find a way to run a piggyback ECU to intercept the signals such as an E-manage.
Won't be upgrading the pump for a while though, will be looking at other bolt on options and can still run a larger turbo with the stock pump - its hardly being hastled with the tiny stock K14 turbo at the moment!
This post was last modified: 09-16-2015, 07:01 AM by m1tch.
(09-16-2015, 05:31 AM)Hario Without a remap it will not run well.
For example the ECU will push the rack closed trying to maintain 700rpm idle but 8mm elements provide so much fuel the ECU will push the rack to zero trying to bring the idle down.
If you fit a 603 IP you just have to take the 'BAS' bulb out the dash cluster (it lights up red) then all other functions run as normal. For example RPM is measured from the crank not the IP, and all the sensors will still work of course.
Good point about the additional fueling at idle, its a shame its going to be very very hard to find somewhere in the UK that can remap the ECU - will still look into fitting the OM603 pump as I have one spare in the garage.
I know that when Dieselmeken was adjusting the EDC pump with 8mm elements he simply reset the rack position sensor - eg reset it so that at idle the rack isn't moved quite as far as stock but then have additional rack travel through the rest of the throttle range.
I will have a look into how I might be able to adjust the idle enough with the larger elements - might just be a case that the car idles at 1,000 rpm rather than 750 or indeed see if the Alda can adjust the fueling slightly.
With the OM603 pump I would however lose the cruise control/speed limiter which I am finding rather useful though - might be able to find a way to run a piggyback ECU to intercept the signals such as an E-manage.
Won't be upgrading the pump for a while though, will be looking at other bolt on options and can still run a larger turbo with the stock pump - its hardly being hastled with the tiny stock K14 turbo at the moment!
09-16-2015, 08:01 AM
#24
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
09-16-2015, 02:47 PM
#25
(09-16-2015, 08:01 AM)Hario The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Will go check that out, seems like I need an EDC controller and a a gearbox controller!
09-16-2015, 07:03 PM
#26
(09-16-2015, 08:01 AM)Hario The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Orly? Is there a web page or forum post with details?
raysorenson
09-16-2015, 07:03 PM #26(09-16-2015, 08:01 AM)Hario The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Orly? Is there a web page or forum post with details?
09-17-2015, 10:05 AM
#27
(09-16-2015, 07:03 PM)raysorenson(09-16-2015, 08:01 AM)Hario The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Orly? Is there a web page or forum post with details?
News on the STD Facebook page, search posts from Baldur, I've seen his here also, he said he will create a thread for FAQ's etc, like Ole's..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(09-16-2015, 07:03 PM)raysorenson(09-16-2015, 08:01 AM)Hario The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Orly? Is there a web page or forum post with details?
News on the STD Facebook page, search posts from Baldur, I've seen his here also, he said he will create a thread for FAQ's etc, like Ole's..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
09-17-2015, 10:21 AM
#28
(09-16-2015, 07:03 PM)raysorenson(09-16-2015, 08:01 AM)Hario The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Orly? Is there a web page or forum post with details?
News on the STD Facebook page, search posts from Baldur, I've seen his here also, he said he will create a thread for FAQ's etc, like Ole's..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(09-16-2015, 07:03 PM)raysorenson(09-16-2015, 08:01 AM)Hario The 603Ip does have max rpm governor built in if that's what you mean?
Baldur just released his EDC controller for $650 anyway so no worries!
Orly? Is there a web page or forum post with details?
News on the STD Facebook page, search posts from Baldur, I've seen his here also, he said he will create a thread for FAQ's etc, like Ole's..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
09-18-2015, 08:57 AM
#30
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
And EDC pumps can be had for cheap so we can get one sent off for big elements while still driving the daily, then get it fitted and running stock, (all be it with big elements) before even having to look at the ECU..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
09-18-2015, 02:04 PM
#31
(09-18-2015, 08:57 AM)Hario And EDC pumps can be had for cheap so we can get one sent off for big elements while still driving the daily, then get it fitted and running stock, (all be it with big elements) before even having to look at the ECU..
Yeah, I spoke to DieselpumpUK and I basically get a free EDC pump instead of paying the £300 core charge as they aren't used by many people. I plan to run it on a stock ECU to start with anyway - the bigger elements would simply move the stock fueling curve higher without altering the stock driving characteristics. First thing I am planning to do is to bolt on the larger turbo with the stock pump - interested to see how much that pump can put out and won't have any issue with higher EGTs as there will be plenty of airflow!
(09-18-2015, 08:57 AM)Hario And EDC pumps can be had for cheap so we can get one sent off for big elements while still driving the daily, then get it fitted and running stock, (all be it with big elements) before even having to look at the ECU..
Yeah, I spoke to DieselpumpUK and I basically get a free EDC pump instead of paying the £300 core charge as they aren't used by many people. I plan to run it on a stock ECU to start with anyway - the bigger elements would simply move the stock fueling curve higher without altering the stock driving characteristics. First thing I am planning to do is to bolt on the larger turbo with the stock pump - interested to see how much that pump can put out and won't have any issue with higher EGTs as there will be plenty of airflow!
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