Air to water intercooling idea
Air to water intercooling idea
Since it is impossible to conveniently fit a front mount intercooler in the W201 without cutting the chassis and/or bumper, I have been looking into air to water intercooling.
However, I would like to make it as simple as possible and use an already pressurized water port directly on the engine instead of a separate electric pump. If it is a cold water port, not even a heat exchanger would be necessary, thus making the system even more basic.
It seems that the water pump block on the OM60x engines already has a port that could be used. On some engines such as the NA OM606 it is used for the oil pan cooler, on other engines it just needs to be drilled out and tapped.
Here is a picture to better explain my idea.
![[Image: a2wcooling.jpg]](http://matejblahut.com/media/image/hobby/auto/a2wcooling.jpg)
Of course a heat exchanger could still be added if necessary. It is a lot easier to fit one in front of the radiator than an air to air intercooler.
Do you gentlemen think this could work?
There are probably also other ports that could be used, such as the one used for the cabin heater. A heat exchanger would definitely be needed if a hot water port is used.
Irony.cc
Hello gentlemen,
Since it is impossible to conveniently fit a front mount intercooler in the W201 without cutting the chassis and/or bumper, I have been looking into air to water intercooling.
However, I would like to make it as simple as possible and use an already pressurized water port directly on the engine instead of a separate electric pump. If it is a cold water port, not even a heat exchanger would be necessary, thus making the system even more basic.
It seems that the water pump block on the OM60x engines already has a port that could be used. On some engines such as the NA OM606 it is used for the oil pan cooler, on other engines it just needs to be drilled out and tapped.
Here is a picture to better explain my idea.
Of course a heat exchanger could still be added if necessary. It is a lot easier to fit one in front of the radiator than an air to air intercooler.
Do you gentlemen think this could work?
There are probably also other ports that could be used, such as the one used for the cabin heater. A heat exchanger would definitely be needed if a hot water port is used.
Irony.cc
Another option you could look at is an intercooler sprayer - spraying water onto the air/air intercooler gives an advantage when you do need to make sure the air is cool or if you are towing a heavy load up a hill for example. They are simple to setup as you can just use a windscreen washer pump and a nozzle to spray water onto the intercooler - just an idea.
I think the issue you will have is that any water in the engine circulation system would be hot, therefore meaning that the intercooler would be an interwarmer - you do need a separate radiator, the chargecooler radiators are usually very thin with lots of fins which will give maximum cooling for a smallish amount of water.
Another option you could look at is an intercooler sprayer - spraying water onto the air/air intercooler gives an advantage when you do need to make sure the air is cool or if you are towing a heavy load up a hill for example. They are simple to setup as you can just use a windscreen washer pump and a nozzle to spray water onto the intercooler - just an idea.
Usually chargecoolers (air-water-intercoolers) have a low-temperature radiator that's as big as possible to work well and prevent heat-soak. The freedom in placement you gain with a AW-IC is bought with the requirement of a large radiator to make it efficient (resp. creating a temperatur differential as big as possible).
And always use a "counter-flow" layout! resp. feed the cold water from the cooler's outlet! Why? Physics. You can't cool the air to a lower temperature than the coolant. If the coolant exits at the air-outlet, the air can never be colder than the hot coolant. Hence you have the coolant entry on the air outlet.
It's all simple physics - but still tricky.
Or in short: you need to take measurements!! Everything else ist just blablabla. How hot is the charge-air at the turbo-outlet? How warm is the coolant from that port? How big is your temperature differential? This gives you all the awnsers you need.
![[Image: yeahsciencebitch.PNG]](http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/034/yeahsciencebitch.PNG){kind=icon}
DiseaselWeasel
07-30-2015, 02:14 PM #3This depends mainly on how hot the chrage air is... The bigger the temperature drop between coolant (air or water) and charge air, the effective the cooling will be. Let's say your "cold" coolant has 75°C and your charge air has 85°C - that's not going to be very efficient. If your charge air has 450°C - that's another story alltogether!
Usually chargecoolers (air-water-intercoolers) have a low-temperature radiator that's as big as possible to work well and prevent heat-soak. The freedom in placement you gain with a AW-IC is bought with the requirement of a large radiator to make it efficient (resp. creating a temperatur differential as big as possible).
And always use a "counter-flow" layout! resp. feed the cold water from the cooler's outlet! Why? Physics. You can't cool the air to a lower temperature than the coolant. If the coolant exits at the air-outlet, the air can never be colder than the hot coolant. Hence you have the coolant entry on the air outlet.
It's all simple physics - but still tricky.
Or in short: you need to take measurements!! Everything else ist just blablabla. How hot is the charge-air at the turbo-outlet? How warm is the coolant from that port? How big is your temperature differential? This gives you all the awnsers you need.
DiseaselWeasel
07-30-2015, 02:18 PM #4Hmm - you could perhaps put a heater core or two between the chargecooler and the water port to bring down coolant temperature. I don't know how eficient that would be, though. And how much space it would eat... Maybe there's a space between wheel & bumper? Just a spontaneous brain fart...
(07-30-2015, 02:18 PM)DiseaselWeasel Hmm - you could perhaps put a heater core or two between the chargecooler and the water port to bring down coolant temperature. I don't know how eficient that would be, though. And how much space it would eat... Maybe there's a space between wheel & bumper? Just a spontaneous brain fart...Yes, it seems it could still be beneficial to use a heat exchanger no matter what. The car will not have AC, so there will be enough room for it in front of the radiator. Maybe the AC condenser could even be used as a heat exchanger for the intercooler, depending on how well it flows.
Or perhaps the oil cooler ports on the radiator could be used, and then I would use a separate cooler for the oil.
Irony.cc
(07-30-2015, 02:18 PM)DiseaselWeasel Hmm - you could perhaps put a heater core or two between the chargecooler and the water port to bring down coolant temperature. I don't know how eficient that would be, though. And how much space it would eat... Maybe there's a space between wheel & bumper? Just a spontaneous brain fart...Yes, it seems it could still be beneficial to use a heat exchanger no matter what. The car will not have AC, so there will be enough room for it in front of the radiator. Maybe the AC condenser could even be used as a heat exchanger for the intercooler, depending on how well it flows.
Or perhaps the oil cooler ports on the radiator could be used, and then I would use a separate cooler for the oil.
Irony.cc
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Charge temps can get pretty hot, a fellow that I talked to that pulls trucks said his IAT was 700F before the AW cooler, and 70F after (running around 100psi of boost). But they are running an ice chest and a very expensive cooler
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
DiseaselWeasel
08-02-2015, 03:09 PM #7Then you might as well install a stand-alone low-temperature water circuit for the charge cooler...
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
On my water to air I used a bosch electric water pump from a mustang cobra, and I made a reservoir out of a piece of PVC pipe and two end caps. So it's a seperate system, and even after long drives the antifreeze isn't even lose to as hot as the engine coolant.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I myself went to a air-air-IC in the end, since I found a convenient space for a big-ish IC whilst retaining the A/C condenser. It's just simpler to use air as cooling medium. And without a space-issue - why over-complicate things? That said: I like the idea of the A/W-IC.
DiseaselWeasel
08-03-2015, 02:09 PM #10I was thinking about one or two ML radiators (some CDIs have A/W-ICs), they can be had comparatively cheap. If you look, there's quite a couple of cars that run a factory A/W-IC. Or heck - have one made to specification. It's not insanely pricey to have a radiator made.
I myself went to a air-air-IC in the end, since I found a convenient space for a big-ish IC whilst retaining the A/C condenser. It's just simpler to use air as cooling medium. And without a space-issue - why over-complicate things? That said: I like the idea of the A/W-IC.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I just used a transmission cooler from the local auto parts store. I found a core size that would fit in the space infront of my radiator and just bought it. It wasn't very expensive seems to work well
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(08-04-2015, 11:56 AM)DiseaselWeasel "Seems to work well" - did you ever take measurements?
No, everything's always a "hurry to get it done" kind of thing in our shop, since we are a farm and not a hobby shop or something of that matter. Because we always have machinery that takes precedence over my car haha
I would have liked to check it after I installed it, but I changed to an hx30 and moved my egt probe from post to pre charger all at the same time. To many changed variables at once to make an accurate statement. And I've never had the ambition to spend the money and time to install two IAT sensors before and after.
I should shoot the intake after a hard run with our heat gun, but never have done that either lol
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(08-04-2015, 11:56 AM)DiseaselWeasel "Seems to work well" - did you ever take measurements?
No, everything's always a "hurry to get it done" kind of thing in our shop, since we are a farm and not a hobby shop or something of that matter. Because we always have machinery that takes precedence over my car haha
I would have liked to check it after I installed it, but I changed to an hx30 and moved my egt probe from post to pre charger all at the same time. To many changed variables at once to make an accurate statement. And I've never had the ambition to spend the money and time to install two IAT sensors before and after.
I should shoot the intake after a hard run with our heat gun, but never have done that either lol
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Barrel-interco...35eed18d65
would this type of thing be any good, not much space needed for it, cold water tank and pump feeding it?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Barrel-interco...35eed18d65
A chest full of ice water is even more efficient, but not good for street use. Same goes for dry ice
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
It's hard to tell how effective it would be, more surface area means better cooling and that surface area is rather small. But it would probably be better than nothing!
A chest full of ice water is even more efficient, but not good for street use. Same goes for dry ice
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Therefore to achieve useful charge air temperature drop across a heat exchanger core, the largest temperature difference (Delta T) between liquids must be used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmi...difference
It is for this reason why an oil cooler is a very bad choice: it is designed to knock 50 degree Celsius off 200 degree oil, NOT reduce 30 degree charge cooler water by 30 degrees!
Therefore because of such a small Delta T function, the cooler must be as big and conductive as possible, ergo copper / alumInIum...
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
The problem stems from air being very poor at conducting heat energy, in fact air is an insulator!
Therefore to achieve useful charge air temperature drop across a heat exchanger core, the largest temperature difference (Delta T) between liquids must be used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmi...difference
It is for this reason why an oil cooler is a very bad choice: it is designed to knock 50 degree Celsius off 200 degree oil, NOT reduce 30 degree charge cooler water by 30 degrees!
Therefore because of such a small Delta T function, the cooler must be as big and conductive as possible, ergo copper / alumInIum...
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
i would bet the dedicated system , well thats what i´m going to try in the future, air conditioner radiator, fluid pump, air to coolant intercooler, and as coolant; ethilene, something that was used long time ago in aviation engines, dangerous but a lot more conductive than regular coolant.
regards
FD,
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said by other words, engine coolant will never reduce charge air temp low enough to provide any gains,
i would bet the dedicated system , well thats what i´m going to try in the future, air conditioner radiator, fluid pump, air to coolant intercooler, and as coolant; ethilene, something that was used long time ago in aviation engines, dangerous but a lot more conductive than regular coolant.
regards
FD,
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(08-08-2015, 05:10 PM)barrote Do you mean ethylene?
said by other words, engine coolant will never reduce charge air temp low enough to provide any gains,
i would bet the dedicated system , well thats what i´m going to try in the future, air conditioner radiator, fluid pump, air to coolant intercooler, and as coolant; ethilene, something that was used long time ago in aviation engines, dangerous but a lot more conductive than regular coolant.
regards
(08-08-2015, 05:10 PM)barrote Do you mean ethylene?
said by other words, engine coolant will never reduce charge air temp low enough to provide any gains,
i would bet the dedicated system , well thats what i´m going to try in the future, air conditioner radiator, fluid pump, air to coolant intercooler, and as coolant; ethilene, something that was used long time ago in aviation engines, dangerous but a lot more conductive than regular coolant.
regards
that fancy alcoohol people use in heat recovery systems in houses. Usually ethylene that is disolved in pure water like 40 to 60% and sold in 25lts containers used to fill heat recovery systems.
in the early days of aviation piston cooled engines like the famous rolls royce Merlin, used to have glycol as coolant in deep pressurized systems , it was a good thing but dangerous when u have bullets flying arround
FD,
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yep i said that but maybe i didn´t mean only that, i was talking about "ethylene glycol"
that fancy alcoohol people use in heat recovery systems in houses. Usually ethylene that is disolved in pure water like 40 to 60% and sold in 25lts containers used to fill heat recovery systems.
in the early days of aviation piston cooled engines like the famous rolls royce Merlin, used to have glycol as coolant in deep pressurized systems , it was a good thing but dangerous when u have bullets flying arround
FD,
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(08-09-2015, 04:02 PM)Are you sure you have not mistaken it for ethanol in water? in my experiance it is very hard to make ethylene glycol burnbarrote when it boils it can burn, just that . is that dangerous ??? for a car ??? i dont know what do u thing? in war airplanes they decided not to use it.
never tried it ,
if engeeniers say it burns when in vapor, maybe we can try , should be interesting to find out.....
anyhow it should be a good heat carrier so they use it in heat recovery systems,
corrosive, it should be , dont know either.....
FD,
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maybe i dont know,
never tried it ,
if engeeniers say it burns when in vapor, maybe we can try , should be interesting to find out.....
anyhow it should be a good heat carrier so they use it in heat recovery systems,
corrosive, it should be , dont know either.....
FD,
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i know people that use to drink that (mother russia), so must do some efect. about the burning well maybe is other thing than visible flame... as i work in aviation we use to have many things that are dangerous in aviation, but when used in road use they don´t have problema at alll.
heavy water , was that H2O2, that u were talking about?
FD,
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hehe,
i know people that use to drink that (mother russia), so must do some efect. about the burning well maybe is other thing than visible flame... as i work in aviation we use to have many things that are dangerous in aviation, but when used in road use they don´t have problema at alll.
heavy water , was that H2O2, that u were talking about?
FD,
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(08-11-2015, 01:12 PM)barrote hehe,
i know people that use to drink that (mother russia), so must do some efect. about the burning well maybe is other thing than visible flame... as i work in aviation we use to have many things that are dangerous in aviation, but when used in road use they don´t have problema at alll.
heavy water , was that H2O2, that u were talking about?
yes deionised water have very high specific heat capacity, but do not use it by it self in heating system, buffer effect is very low so if some acid come in ph value will drop like rock... in heat exchangers that have deionised water titanium alloy is highly recommended. Ethyl glycol by it self is not good, it need some corrosion inhibitor, when it is finished you get corrosion in the system, normally in Sweden if you blend with more water then about 50/50 you need to add corrosion inhibitor to stay on the good side but many forgets about it
H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide, destabilization it and you will get water and oxygen, and will really help to burn something, if I am not mistaken just from 21 to 24% volume will double burning rate of fire...
By adding a neutron to the hydrogen core will first make it deuterium, heavy water and two neutron super heavy water or tritium, these are isotope of hydrogen but you see it in front of the H to specify it.
if you will boil a mixture of ethyl alcohol and water the vapour will have increase concentration of ethyl alcohol (like you use in distillation), like in many ground source heating pumps, it will contain 30% of ethyl alcohol and it will not ignite with flame, but if it put on a hot surface or it high temperature and degrease the pressure it can be ignited
(08-11-2015, 01:12 PM)barrote hehe,
i know people that use to drink that (mother russia), so must do some efect. about the burning well maybe is other thing than visible flame... as i work in aviation we use to have many things that are dangerous in aviation, but when used in road use they don´t have problema at alll.
heavy water , was that H2O2, that u were talking about?
yes deionised water have very high specific heat capacity, but do not use it by it self in heating system, buffer effect is very low so if some acid come in ph value will drop like rock... in heat exchangers that have deionised water titanium alloy is highly recommended. Ethyl glycol by it self is not good, it need some corrosion inhibitor, when it is finished you get corrosion in the system, normally in Sweden if you blend with more water then about 50/50 you need to add corrosion inhibitor to stay on the good side but many forgets about it
H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide, destabilization it and you will get water and oxygen, and will really help to burn something, if I am not mistaken just from 21 to 24% volume will double burning rate of fire...
By adding a neutron to the hydrogen core will first make it deuterium, heavy water and two neutron super heavy water or tritium, these are isotope of hydrogen but you see it in front of the H to specify it.
if you will boil a mixture of ethyl alcohol and water the vapour will have increase concentration of ethyl alcohol (like you use in distillation), like in many ground source heating pumps, it will contain 30% of ethyl alcohol and it will not ignite with flame, but if it put on a hot surface or it high temperature and degrease the pressure it can be ignited
after all the boys in aviation had reasons to fear etylene cooled engines
anyway it should be safe to use the glycol for home heat tranfer systems, they contain pretty much the same thing as a air to water cooler , at the exception of some copper piping. it is sold to direct use. what u think?
FD,
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yep, typing mystake about the h2o2, but u got the point, sorry my chemistry was long time ago.
after all the boys in aviation had reasons to fear etylene cooled engines
anyway it should be safe to use the glycol for home heat tranfer systems, they contain pretty much the same thing as a air to water cooler , at the exception of some copper piping. it is sold to direct use. what u think?
FD,
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mmetzdavid
08-12-2015, 06:13 PM #30Myself aswell I think that it would probably just warm up the intake air rather than cooling it. But what about a stainless smaller intercooler fitted somewhere else, and some whater injection with a simple relay on it?
(08-12-2015, 02:11 AM)barrote yep, typing mystake about the h2o2, but u got the point, sorry my chemistry was long time ago.
after all the boys in aviation had reasons to fear etylene cooled engines
anyway it should be safe to use the glycol for home heat tranfer systems, they contain pretty much the same thing as a air to water cooler , at the exception of some copper piping. it is sold to direct use. what u think?
Use glycol in 50/50 mixture and it will work good in corrosion point of view and no problem with fire hazard.
I have spoken to several intercooler manufacturer/ race sellers but I must say I am confused since I do wonder how much they know about heat and mass transfer, basic NTU (number of transfer units) method or the LMTD method give a pretty good idea about what is happening as long as you know what you want to accomplish, but what do I know...
(08-12-2015, 02:11 AM)barrote yep, typing mystake about the h2o2, but u got the point, sorry my chemistry was long time ago.
after all the boys in aviation had reasons to fear etylene cooled engines
anyway it should be safe to use the glycol for home heat tranfer systems, they contain pretty much the same thing as a air to water cooler , at the exception of some copper piping. it is sold to direct use. what u think?
Use glycol in 50/50 mixture and it will work good in corrosion point of view and no problem with fire hazard.
I have spoken to several intercooler manufacturer/ race sellers but I must say I am confused since I do wonder how much they know about heat and mass transfer, basic NTU (number of transfer units) method or the LMTD method give a pretty good idea about what is happening as long as you know what you want to accomplish, but what do I know...
the thing in cars is ruled by polution rules wich renders the coolant the best choice.
most intercooler/radiator manufacturers dont think in eficiency , they are slaves of cost and technic of production vs durability. if they thought of eficiency they would have coolers made of thin/brass alloys, copper is much more conductive than aluminium/magnesium alloys.
in aviation the coolers are made of titanium/magnesium alloys they play very well the game of weight/eficiency/size.
in the few days i´ll try what i have close by , the air conditioner radiator in front , and the air/water cooler by me and my friends. i´ll see how it works out.
regards
FD,
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yep , i understand your point. the thing is in heat transfer aplications (at home or industrial) no one uses water or engine coolant with anti freze. almost all aplications that i know use ethilene glycol solutions. or any other fancy things.
the thing in cars is ruled by polution rules wich renders the coolant the best choice.
most intercooler/radiator manufacturers dont think in eficiency , they are slaves of cost and technic of production vs durability. if they thought of eficiency they would have coolers made of thin/brass alloys, copper is much more conductive than aluminium/magnesium alloys.
in aviation the coolers are made of titanium/magnesium alloys they play very well the game of weight/eficiency/size.
in the few days i´ll try what i have close by , the air conditioner radiator in front , and the air/water cooler by me and my friends. i´ll see how it works out.
regards
FD,
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So - is it worth all that hassle to gain a bit more efficiency? Or is it not much simpler to increase the size of your heat exchangers?
But without recording and measuring/monitoring data it's all just random blabla.
If you do the experiment barrote, please take temperature readings and compare other coolants and compare your results. Without doing this, it's a useless exercise if you ask me
I'm not negative here, just dubious and lusting after FACTS, not just "seems to work well", "should be better" or "could work" - know what I mean?
DiseaselWeasel
08-16-2015, 03:32 PM #33Well another point is that it is handable by any Jane & John Doe... And it's just that: safe. In a case of a crash. You can fill a AC with propane - but it it safe in a "worst case scenario"? An industrial complex may run a much more efficient coolant - it's also much less likely to be involved in a head-on collision with another industrial complex (unless in china, of course)
So - is it worth all that hassle to gain a bit more efficiency? Or is it not much simpler to increase the size of your heat exchangers?
But without recording and measuring/monitoring data it's all just random blabla.
If you do the experiment barrote, please take temperature readings and compare other coolants and compare your results. Without doing this, it's a useless exercise if you ask me I'm not negative here, just dubious and lusting after FACTS, not just "seems to work well", "should be better" or "could work" - know what I mean?
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