w126 Superturbo engine questions
w126 Superturbo engine questions
I have recently bought a 91' 560 SEL with an om602 and manual tranny from a w124. The conversion was pretty decently done by it's previous owner, but the main thing why I bought it as a project car is that nowdays legislation here does not allow us to do engine conversions (not even an om603.1x to om603.9x for exemple, and this car was homologated with it's om602 n/a engine in the era when it was possible.
So my plan is to build a superturbodiesel with starting with that n/a om602 block.
Of course it's more simple to et an om606 turbo and make some big power, but my goals are to get it to its standard performances, a bit less then 300 hp. Doable, I guess. The plan is to buy an om605 turbo, and put everything on the om602 n/a block, and fin some sorth of threads wich fit the om602 n/a block's oil squirter holes, and then I can get the om605 turbo's oil squirters in this adapter. I saw some images of them in a service manual, I guess the om602 n/a's threads are bigger in diameter than the pressurefited om605 turbo's sqirter's holes, so I guess that it is doable aswell. The questions would be:
-Is it gonna work as described? Can I fit the om605 turbo cylinderhead, timing cover, chain, oil pump, pistons, rods, shafts, etc. on the n/a om602 block?
-What turbo should I get on it? The plan is to make around 300 hp with dieselmeken 7.5mm elements, and outside adjustable ALDA on the stopleaver, as the 602 n/a's pump had no ALDA from factory. I guess a hx40 with 16 cm2 housing would be very laggy but would do the job (very cheap and common turbo over here). Or rather a biturbo with some KKK's?
-What clutch sould I think of? The plan would be to use manual gearbox (i don't like automatics), a w203 6 speed or e39 530D i saw holding up really good! And thosse are pretty cheaps over here aswell.
Thank guys, any help and idea is very useful!
David.
mmetzdavid
08-10-2015, 09:10 AM #1Hy diesel fans!
I have recently bought a 91' 560 SEL with an om602 and manual tranny from a w124. The conversion was pretty decently done by it's previous owner, but the main thing why I bought it as a project car is that nowdays legislation here does not allow us to do engine conversions (not even an om603.1x to om603.9x for exemple, and this car was homologated with it's om602 n/a engine in the era when it was possible.
So my plan is to build a superturbodiesel with starting with that n/a om602 block.
Of course it's more simple to et an om606 turbo and make some big power, but my goals are to get it to its standard performances, a bit less then 300 hp. Doable, I guess. The plan is to buy an om605 turbo, and put everything on the om602 n/a block, and fin some sorth of threads wich fit the om602 n/a block's oil squirter holes, and then I can get the om605 turbo's oil squirters in this adapter. I saw some images of them in a service manual, I guess the om602 n/a's threads are bigger in diameter than the pressurefited om605 turbo's sqirter's holes, so I guess that it is doable aswell. The questions would be:
-Is it gonna work as described? Can I fit the om605 turbo cylinderhead, timing cover, chain, oil pump, pistons, rods, shafts, etc. on the n/a om602 block?
-What turbo should I get on it? The plan is to make around 300 hp with dieselmeken 7.5mm elements, and outside adjustable ALDA on the stopleaver, as the 602 n/a's pump had no ALDA from factory. I guess a hx40 with 16 cm2 housing would be very laggy but would do the job (very cheap and common turbo over here). Or rather a biturbo with some KKK's?
-What clutch sould I think of? The plan would be to use manual gearbox (i don't like automatics), a w203 6 speed or e39 530D i saw holding up really good! And thosse are pretty cheaps over here aswell.
Thank guys, any help and idea is very useful!
David.
mmetzdavid
08-10-2015, 10:24 AM #3Yes, that's the simple way. But legislation does not allow me to put an om605 in a car that figures an om602 on it's papers. The cool thing is that it's the only thing they know to check, so if the block is the one from your paperwork, the bits you bolt to it does not interest anyone. That's why I want to keep the original om602 n/a block and start with that. Thanks anyway!
Anyway i bet you can make 300hp with the 2 valve engine BUT you need to do some modifications since you have an originally non turbo engine.
You need to:
-Install oil squirters It's not easy but it can be done.
-Install 602/603 turbo pistons since they are much stronger than the non turbo ones.
-Change over to stronger rods. Use 602/603 turbo or much better 605/606 turbo rods.
The rest of the plan sounds good. W203 220-270 cdi 6 speed should handle 300hp no problem and it bolts up to our engines.
I feel your problem bro the same thing happened this year in Serbia just as i was about to drop an OM605 in my W123
Anyway i bet you can make 300hp with the 2 valve engine BUT you need to do some modifications since you have an originally non turbo engine.
You need to:
-Install oil squirters It's not easy but it can be done.
-Install 602/603 turbo pistons since they are much stronger than the non turbo ones.
-Change over to stronger rods. Use 602/603 turbo or much better 605/606 turbo rods.
The rest of the plan sounds good. W203 220-270 cdi 6 speed should handle 300hp no problem and it bolts up to our engines.
Thanks again for the info!
(Better not play with fire changing the numbers, of corse it would be a simple way, and 99% sure noone would notice it. Even if i would have changed om606.960 to om602.910 and the rest of the serial number as well.)
mmetzdavid
08-12-2015, 06:09 PM #7Thaks for the great infos! That the manual tranny is a bolt on fit, that's really great news! After the service manuals, the N/A om602 has also got some oil squirters to cool down the pistons, but they are different. I could not find good pictures, just this manual, but I will try later to put it up here to show you what I'm talking about. The holes for the squirters are threaded on the N/A block and have a bigger diameter, after what I see. The turbo ones are pressure fitted and the block is slightly less drilled, I guess. So what I should do to get it work (a full om602.9x on a N/A block) is to find some adapters wich bolt into the threads of the N/A block, and get interference-fitted in thoose adapters the original turbo squirters. Of corse with turbo pistons and rods. But a question if I you have proposed it : do the om605 turbo rods fit the om602 turbo pistons? I guess it would not be the case, but we'll see. The thing is that where I am from, the price is om605 turbo (starting at 230 euro) < om606 turbo (300 to 500 euro) < om603 turbo (350 euro a really good one) < om602 turbo (the only one I found is for sale for a bit less then 500 euro). But I guess it worths changing the head with prechambers etc. aswell, so I will go for the om602 turbo as a donor engine.
Thanks again for the info!
(Better not play with fire changing the numbers, of corse it would be a simple way, and 99% sure noone would notice it. Even if i would have changed om606.960 to om602.910 and the rest of the serial number as well.)
602, engines block are the same for 2.5N/A 2.5TD 2.9, 662 etc . when the factory drills the holes for the diff hardware they mark it with a assembly number(rig number), for instance the block number is 602.016. same as in a D29.
in 1988 there was a production break, many changes in emission/noise etc (at the time a MB was a luxury car) rules lead to major changes in the head design. the turbo motors have significantly diff heads.
when the engine is assembled , rods and pistons are diff in turbo or non turbo, the oil galeries , oil pump, squirters what ever is inside a 602 is the same as a 605, most people just say it doen´t have this or that , but mb engines have all this since 1970.
and a serial number from a 605 squirter starts in 602.XXX.XX XX reason , the same thing.
the N/A engine holds up a lot. i bet u can reach 300HP and it will survive for a long time. all will depend on the abuse it will be subject too.
whats is important to adress is engine working temperatures, coolant , oil, and EGT´s . of course for a 300HP engine a lot of major changes have to done to keep this temperatures inside this numbers , engine at full throtle 5 minute: EGT below 550ºC, coolant below 95ºC oil below 90ºC
once u reach this , u can fit a 150cc pump to it and it will spit 300HP easylly.
FD,
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if i were u , i would find a 605.96X engine, the only number u have to change is the 5 instead of the 2. the number is in a place were u can just grind it and mark it again. but that is not legal, is up to u.
602, engines block are the same for 2.5N/A 2.5TD 2.9, 662 etc . when the factory drills the holes for the diff hardware they mark it with a assembly number(rig number), for instance the block number is 602.016. same as in a D29.
in 1988 there was a production break, many changes in emission/noise etc (at the time a MB was a luxury car) rules lead to major changes in the head design. the turbo motors have significantly diff heads.
when the engine is assembled , rods and pistons are diff in turbo or non turbo, the oil galeries , oil pump, squirters what ever is inside a 602 is the same as a 605, most people just say it doen´t have this or that , but mb engines have all this since 1970.
and a serial number from a 605 squirter starts in 602.XXX.XX XX reason , the same thing.
the N/A engine holds up a lot. i bet u can reach 300HP and it will survive for a long time. all will depend on the abuse it will be subject too.
whats is important to adress is engine working temperatures, coolant , oil, and EGT´s . of course for a 300HP engine a lot of major changes have to done to keep this temperatures inside this numbers , engine at full throtle 5 minute: EGT below 550ºC, coolant below 95ºC oil below 90ºC
once u reach this , u can fit a 150cc pump to it and it will spit 300HP easylly.
FD,
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! Here are the pictures aswell that I was talking about, the differences between the oil squirters, their function and fitting. Maybe it will help somebody else aswell (got it from w124-zone)
mmetzdavid
08-13-2015, 06:58 AM #9Yes, I guess you're right. Thanks for the detailed answer. Howewer I feel that the direction of this project will be to squeeze out thoose 300 poneys from the N/A om602 that lays in the engine bay with a decent pump and a HX40, external wastegate, oil cooler, intercooler, gauges to make sure everything goes fine. I will not even get the cylinderheads off it. If it starts to make ugly noises, plan B is to play a bit with the 5 to 2. Water temperature should not be a problem I guess even whitout bypassing to cylinder 1, it has the 560 SEL radiator in there. I don't care if it will be laggy, I like high endish power. And it's good for the fuel economy aswell ! Here are the pictures aswell that I was talking about, the differences between the oil squirters, their function and fitting. Maybe it will help somebody else aswell (got it from w124-zone)
What should I buy for this project? Should I stay at 5 cilinders, or should I upgrade to 6? The possibilities are a complete bottom end of a turbo om605 for 120 euros, or a complete om603.960 (with manifolds, turbo, oil cooler, really everything) for 300 euros? Both engines run in france before, and have around 200 000 km on them. I guess they are in top shape both to be squeezed a bit.
Any help for decision/sugestions apreciated,
Thanks!
mmetzdavid
08-24-2015, 05:32 PM #10So I decided that nobody will check my engine numbers.
What should I buy for this project? Should I stay at 5 cilinders, or should I upgrade to 6? The possibilities are a complete bottom end of a turbo om605 for 120 euros, or a complete om603.960 (with manifolds, turbo, oil cooler, really everything) for 300 euros? Both engines run in france before, and have around 200 000 km on them. I guess they are in top shape both to be squeezed a bit.
Any help for decision/sugestions apreciated,
Thanks!
(08-26-2015, 03:07 PM)barrote i would stay 5 cyl.
but is arguable, even me i movimg in the 3 liter 5 cylinder... hehhe i´ll post how
regards
I asked some pictures and in the end it was an om604 what he wanted to sell me as an om605. I was quite shocked when I saw the "missing" pison. Anyway, I guess the end is gonna be an om603.960, it's just too attractive and it'll stay in the spirit. And it's a great value aswell what he askes for a compleatly equipped engine. So i'll think a bit more, but I guess I'll turn that way the plan. And if I just remove my om602 as it is, it's gonna always be a one day job to put it back (for technical inspections, every 2 years).
Thanks, I'll look forward anyhow on that thread!
mmetzdavid
08-26-2015, 03:52 PM #12(08-26-2015, 03:07 PM)barrote i would stay 5 cyl.
but is arguable, even me i movimg in the 3 liter 5 cylinder... hehhe i´ll post how
regards
I asked some pictures and in the end it was an om604 what he wanted to sell me as an om605. I was quite shocked when I saw the "missing" pison. Anyway, I guess the end is gonna be an om603.960, it's just too attractive and it'll stay in the spirit. And it's a great value aswell what he askes for a compleatly equipped engine. So i'll think a bit more, but I guess I'll turn that way the plan. And if I just remove my om602 as it is, it's gonna always be a one day job to put it back (for technical inspections, every 2 years).
Thanks, I'll look forward anyhow on that thread!
Too bad you couldn't say 'I got it like this?'
1987 Mazda B2200 "outlaw" **planning phase** Chevy 283, Power Pack heads, Edelbrock carb and intake, turbo 350 trans
1985 Mercedes 300D stock for now
Agree, 605/06 way better than602/03. I'd personally go 6 cyl if it were financially feasible to do such. If you have to keep swapping motors around for inspection then it would cease to be worth it.
Too bad you couldn't say 'I got it like this?'
1987 Mazda B2200 "outlaw" **planning phase** Chevy 283, Power Pack heads, Edelbrock carb and intake, turbo 350 trans
1985 Mercedes 300D stock for now
mmetzdavid
08-27-2015, 08:44 AM #15Fincancially it's not a big difference over here, maximum 100-200 euros of difference between multivalve and 2v engines, and usually they are all imports, so they are in good nick. But if I go 606, I have to get a completly new pump aswell, so I guess going multivalve way shall remain the om605 turbo. But I can always open the hood and say "sh**, how did that extra cylinder got in there?". But it depends on the reaction of the person if it is going to remain street legal, or it will consider this as a result of two of my original pistons having love with each other, and let me go my way..
mmetzdavid
09-01-2015, 04:29 PM #16Can please somebody tell me where to get the inlet oil for the turbo on a 602 N/A? Oil filter housing? For return i'm gonna just drill in the pan, but I have doubts about the feed line. Thanks!
Same for the return , there´s a place in the block to drill. find the flange and drill, is just above the pan.
regards
FD,
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u can either drill a hole and thread at the same place where the turbo blocks have the exit. or u can use the oil pressure transmiter with a T type thing.
Same for the return , there´s a place in the block to drill. find the flange and drill, is just above the pan.
regards
FD,
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mmetzdavid
10-02-2015, 12:22 PM #19A new question: is there an internally wastegated k31 turbo with 16 cmc turbine housing anygood for a low pressure turbo on a compound setup for om602/605? Found a nice one, and I am seriously thinking of compounding the engine I am going to use. Would it work with a k24 (7000 series from an Audi 200 20v) and this k31 run well? Any advice is welcome, thanks!
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