Honed injector nozzle vs. 315 nozzle
Honed injector nozzle vs. 315 nozzle
Anyone have opinions , or even better, data on this?
I'm currently running the standard Bosch nozzles that have been honed to deliver more fuel. I'm planning on replacing the nozzles at the end of this season and trying to decide if I should go with honed nozzles or go with the 315s that Greazzer sells. Or go with the 315 and have them honed.
Anyone have opinions , or even better, data on this?
I know first hand that #315s flow around 15% more fuel than any other drop in replacement. I measured it when I did a little testing a year or two ago. I measured 100 or so pops. The measurement was not precise, to the mL, but it was pretty close to say 15%. Plus, the spray goes a little wild in the container, lines the walls of the plastic bottle I used, et cet. But, it was enough to measure and to "eye-ball" the difference. I can say that the exact specs for any nozzle are closely guarded secrets, and I have not been able to find any of that info on the net.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
no data on custom ground pintles except please share your experience on those. Who does that service in CONUS?
I know first hand that #315s flow around 15% more fuel than any other drop in replacement. I measured it when I did a little testing a year or two ago. I measured 100 or so pops. The measurement was not precise, to the mL, but it was pretty close to say 15%. Plus, the spray goes a little wild in the container, lines the walls of the plastic bottle I used, et cet. But, it was enough to measure and to "eye-ball" the difference. I can say that the exact specs for any nozzle are closely guarded secrets, and I have not been able to find any of that info on the net.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
Unfortunately, I didn't do before or after measurements but I did notice a little more go after I installed them.
I'm a little bit confused about how the complete injection system works. For example: what determines the quantity of fuel delivered? I know the timing of delivery is 100% the IP but doesn't the IP also control the quantity of fuel? And can I cross a line and have an injector that flows too much?
And then there are the questions about length of delivery. Nozzles that flow more should result in a shorter delivery time. I think that would be a good thing, but maybe not.
Taking a trip down the fuel rabbit hole.. hope I can find my back out. :-)
The company I used was Dynamite Diesel. http://www.dynomitediesel.com/#!/c19ua
Unfortunately, I didn't do before or after measurements but I did notice a little more go after I installed them.
I'm a little bit confused about how the complete injection system works. For example: what determines the quantity of fuel delivered? I know the timing of delivery is 100% the IP but doesn't the IP also control the quantity of fuel? And can I cross a line and have an injector that flows too much?
And then there are the questions about length of delivery. Nozzles that flow more should result in a shorter delivery time. I think that would be a good thing, but maybe not.
Taking a trip down the fuel rabbit hole.. hope I can find my back out. :-)
If you cut the DVs, you get a really long injection event(high EGTs, jerky power, but lots of power in really short mash the pedal bursts)
If you increase the plunger size, you get more volume through the fixed nozzle tip, via higher supply pressure and larger displacement. Dieselmenken does this.
The larger nozzles allow more fuel through with the same stock plungers/pressure, but you have a theoretical limit-if the hole is too big it might not mist? ('m not familiar).
Could you increase the injector pop pressure, injector nozzle hole size, and then advance the pump timing to bring it all back to the correct timing?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
08-25-2015, 02:23 PM #4The pump plunger comes up, the delivery valve opens, the lines are pressurized, the spring in the injector pops backward, relieving the pressure and spraying into the engine.
If you cut the DVs, you get a really long injection event(high EGTs, jerky power, but lots of power in really short mash the pedal bursts)
If you increase the plunger size, you get more volume through the fixed nozzle tip, via higher supply pressure and larger displacement. Dieselmenken does this.
The larger nozzles allow more fuel through with the same stock plungers/pressure, but you have a theoretical limit-if the hole is too big it might not mist? ('m not familiar).
Could you increase the injector pop pressure, injector nozzle hole size, and then advance the pump timing to bring it all back to the correct timing?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Can't recommend it enough!
DiseaselWeasel
08-25-2015, 03:19 PM #5I like to read the green Bosch inline pump book if I have questions like these Can't recommend it enough!
(08-25-2015, 12:56 PM)Torkey The company I used was Dynamite Diesel. http://www.dynomitediesel.com/#!/c19ua
Unfortunately, I didn't do before or after measurements but I did notice a little more go after I installed them.
I'm a little bit confused about how the complete injection system works.
On DI engines nozzle honing is a good idea and proven, on IDI nozzles it mostly makes it worse.
Quote:For example: what determines the quantity of fuel delivered?
Mostly by the injection pump, but the nozzles influence the amount of fuel
Quote:I know the timing of delivery is 100% the IP but doesn't the IP also control the quantity of fuel?
Yes to both
Quote:And can I cross a line and have an injector that flows too much?
definitely yes!
Quote:And then there are the questions about length of delivery. Nozzles that flow more should result in a shorter delivery time. I think that would be a good thing, but maybe not.
(Most of) the delivery time is cemented by the injection pump because it is mechanical.
Different engine situations require opposed delivery times like idle and full throttle
I already did test a few nozzles on my car, and the more you leave the "Mercedes world", the more interesting the results become - in good and bad ways.
The problem is to translate a VW, Ford, Peugeot, BMW or other nozzles to the "Mercedes engine world"
In the video I am using basically nozzles from an old european Ford engine.
W123 300 TDT OM617A acceleration
How much faster is your race car?
Gruß
Volker
(08-25-2015, 12:56 PM)Torkey The company I used was Dynamite Diesel. http://www.dynomitediesel.com/#!/c19ua
Unfortunately, I didn't do before or after measurements but I did notice a little more go after I installed them.
I'm a little bit confused about how the complete injection system works.
On DI engines nozzle honing is a good idea and proven, on IDI nozzles it mostly makes it worse.
Quote:For example: what determines the quantity of fuel delivered?
Mostly by the injection pump, but the nozzles influence the amount of fuel
Quote:I know the timing of delivery is 100% the IP but doesn't the IP also control the quantity of fuel?
Yes to both
Quote:And can I cross a line and have an injector that flows too much?
definitely yes!
Quote:And then there are the questions about length of delivery. Nozzles that flow more should result in a shorter delivery time. I think that would be a good thing, but maybe not.
(Most of) the delivery time is cemented by the injection pump because it is mechanical.
Different engine situations require opposed delivery times like idle and full throttle
I already did test a few nozzles on my car, and the more you leave the "Mercedes world", the more interesting the results become - in good and bad ways.
The problem is to translate a VW, Ford, Peugeot, BMW or other nozzles to the "Mercedes engine world"
In the video I am using basically nozzles from an old european Ford engine.
W123 300 TDT OM617A acceleration
How much faster is your race car?
Gruß
Volker
Can you explain why honed injectors don't work for IDIs?I think the race is little quicker up to 100mph. But we don't get an opportunity to do a 0-100 time. I refuse to take the car on the street for that kind of thing. Car is not street legal. Very bad consequences.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Can you explain why honed injectors don't work for IDIs?
I think the race is little quicker up to 100mph. But we don't get an opportunity to do a 0-100 time. I refuse to take the car on the street for that kind of thing. Car is not street legal. Very bad consequences.
Pump governor is not stock. The max RPM is turned all the way and the torque capsule is in 3 turns.
like someone said, whether it is DI or IDI type, the injection quantity and quality is ruled by the pump, is a phisical thing u can´t change.
Playing the Delivery valves, will help when u need 150cc for instance , lets say 0,15cc or fuel each stroke!
in a DI engine the injector , injection stream is not so important, in my country we barelly change nozles, but our diesel does not contain corosive solutions like sulphur. usually cleaning and repop will do the trick. the prechambers yes they play na important rule in the livelyness of the engine.
If u have a M pump i could help u to tune it to max fuel, but the thing is it may be necessary to reposition idle, and in the end the pump will be unsicronised , and that can only be done in a bench tester.
PM me if interested.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
so, if u really want some power u should tune the pump, once u tune the pump, u´ll figuer out that the injector nozle dadada, is snake fat thing!!!!
like someone said, whether it is DI or IDI type, the injection quantity and quality is ruled by the pump, is a phisical thing u can´t change.
Playing the Delivery valves, will help when u need 150cc for instance , lets say 0,15cc or fuel each stroke!
in a DI engine the injector , injection stream is not so important, in my country we barelly change nozles, but our diesel does not contain corosive solutions like sulphur. usually cleaning and repop will do the trick. the prechambers yes they play na important rule in the livelyness of the engine.
If u have a M pump i could help u to tune it to max fuel, but the thing is it may be necessary to reposition idle, and in the end the pump will be unsicronised , and that can only be done in a bench tester.
PM me if interested.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Kind of like if you have water flow for 1/2 inch hose than using a 1/4 inch rose will restrict the flow but going to 1 inch hose wont do much if anything.
At least that's my opinion
In a DI engine the nozzles are a restriction because they are relatively small for the flow to increase pressure and improve atomization. In an IDI nozzles are bigger and you reach a point of diminishing returns.
Kind of like if you have water flow for 1/2 inch hose than using a 1/4 inch rose will restrict the flow but going to 1 inch hose wont do much if anything.
At least that's my opinion
(08-27-2015, 04:38 AM)barrote so, if u really want some power u should tune the pump, once u tune the pump, u´ll figuer out that the injector nozle dadada, is snake fat thing!!!!
like someone said, whether it is DI or IDI type, the injection quantity and quality is ruled by the pump, is a phisical thing u can´t change....
I can´t completely agree with that statement.
The injection quantity is controled by the pump. But the injectors influence it quite a bit and more important the spraying efficiency.
Quote:in a DI engine the injector , injection stream is not so important, in my country we barelly change nozles, but our diesel does not contain corosive solutions like sulphur. ....
Basically in a DI engine the injector and its spray is very important!
Gruß
Volker
(08-27-2015, 04:38 AM)barrote so, if u really want some power u should tune the pump, once u tune the pump, u´ll figuer out that the injector nozle dadada, is snake fat thing!!!!
like someone said, whether it is DI or IDI type, the injection quantity and quality is ruled by the pump, is a phisical thing u can´t change....
I can´t completely agree with that statement.
The injection quantity is controled by the pump. But the injectors influence it quite a bit and more important the spraying efficiency.
Quote:in a DI engine the injector , injection stream is not so important, in my country we barelly change nozles, but our diesel does not contain corosive solutions like sulphur. ....
Basically in a DI engine the injector and its spray is very important!
Gruß
Volker
DiseaselWeasel
08-27-2015, 03:39 PM #13Hmm. So, say you have a nozzle that flows more. can't you up the crack pressure and adjust the timing accordingly, to basically have shorter injection time for same amount of fuel? Or am I missing a bit here?
(08-25-2015, 07:30 PM)Torkey This is exactly what I was looking for.
In a DI engine the nozzle has 5-7 really tiny holes which create 5-7 fine misty streams. If you hone DI nozzles those 5-7 holes are bigger but still tiny. So you have more fuel through a bigger hole but still a good atomization. The fine diesel mist can easily find many air molecules to burn with.
In a IDI engine you have 1 single big 1mm hole where you have droplets coming out instead of a fine mist.
Droplets offer less surface for the air molecules and the prechamber has to do the work to gasify the fuel.
Now with a honed IDI nozzle you have a bigger hole --> even more work for the prechamber to gasify the bigger amount of fuel coming through the bigger nozzle hole.
Now you have more fuel, but the atomization is worse (caused by the bigger hole)
The prechamber has to gasify more fuel which is less atomized than before. --> more prechamber work is lost power
In my experience this effect with honed nozzles in a IDI engine is balancing itself out to +- zero.
The #315 nozzle solves that problem partly with a more intelligent needle design.
Gruß
Volker
(08-25-2015, 07:30 PM)Torkey This is exactly what I was looking for.
In a DI engine the nozzle has 5-7 really tiny holes which create 5-7 fine misty streams. If you hone DI nozzles those 5-7 holes are bigger but still tiny. So you have more fuel through a bigger hole but still a good atomization. The fine diesel mist can easily find many air molecules to burn with.
In a IDI engine you have 1 single big 1mm hole where you have droplets coming out instead of a fine mist.
Droplets offer less surface for the air molecules and the prechamber has to do the work to gasify the fuel.
Now with a honed IDI nozzle you have a bigger hole --> even more work for the prechamber to gasify the bigger amount of fuel coming through the bigger nozzle hole.
Now you have more fuel, but the atomization is worse (caused by the bigger hole)
The prechamber has to gasify more fuel which is less atomized than before. --> more prechamber work is lost power
In my experience this effect with honed nozzles in a IDI engine is balancing itself out to +- zero.
The #315 nozzle solves that problem partly with a more intelligent needle design.
Gruß
Volker
(08-27-2015, 03:39 PM)DiseaselWeasel Hmm. So, say you have a nozzle that flows more. can't you up the crack pressure and adjust the timing accordingly, to basically have shorter injection time for same amount of fuel? Or am I missing a bit here?
Yes, basically you can. That will improve atomization a little.
But the higher pop pressure causes the injector to open later and close earlier which reduces the injected amount of fuel again.
And if you leave the pop specification more than 30-40bar upwards the engine gets problems with messed up pressure waves in the injection lines resluting in bad knocking idle and engine shake. (tested on OM617A, OM603A and OM605LA)
Gruß
Volker
(08-27-2015, 03:39 PM)DiseaselWeasel Hmm. So, say you have a nozzle that flows more. can't you up the crack pressure and adjust the timing accordingly, to basically have shorter injection time for same amount of fuel? Or am I missing a bit here?
Yes, basically you can. That will improve atomization a little.
But the higher pop pressure causes the injector to open later and close earlier which reduces the injected amount of fuel again.
And if you leave the pop specification more than 30-40bar upwards the engine gets problems with messed up pressure waves in the injection lines resluting in bad knocking idle and engine shake. (tested on OM617A, OM603A and OM605LA)
Gruß
Volker
(08-27-2015, 04:00 PM)Volker407 Yes, basically you can. That will improve atomization a little.
But the higher pop pressure causes the injector to open later and close earlier which reduces the injected amount of fuel again.
And if you leave the pop specification more than 30-40bar upwards the engine gets problems with messed up pressure waves in the injection lines resluting in bad knocking idle and engine shake. (tested on OM617A, OM603A and OM605LA)
Gruß
Volker
Thanks Volker!
Makes sense!
DiseaselWeasel
08-27-2015, 04:25 PM #17(08-27-2015, 04:00 PM)Volker407 Yes, basically you can. That will improve atomization a little.
But the higher pop pressure causes the injector to open later and close earlier which reduces the injected amount of fuel again.
And if you leave the pop specification more than 30-40bar upwards the engine gets problems with messed up pressure waves in the injection lines resluting in bad knocking idle and engine shake. (tested on OM617A, OM603A and OM605LA)
Gruß
Volker
Thanks Volker!
Makes sense!
What are the pictures you posted?
I've never had this explained to me. I've seen advice on a lot of forums that to get more fuel the pop pressure should be increased. I never thought about the impact that would have on when the injector opens and closes.
Thanks Volker!
What are the pictures you posted?
I've never had this explained to me. I've seen advice on a lot of forums that to get more fuel the pop pressure should be increased. I never thought about the impact that would have on when the injector opens and closes.
(08-27-2015, 04:55 PM)Torkey What are the pictures you posted?
The pictures show a piston from a DI engine where the injection nozzle had a little malfunction.
I wanted to illustrate that in a DI engine the nozzle is even more crucial than in a prechamber engine.
Due to the malfunction the nozzle did bore a nice hole through the piston and caused it to crack several times.
Gruß
Volker
(08-27-2015, 04:55 PM)Torkey What are the pictures you posted?
The pictures show a piston from a DI engine where the injection nozzle had a little malfunction.
I wanted to illustrate that in a DI engine the nozzle is even more crucial than in a prechamber engine.
Due to the malfunction the nozzle did bore a nice hole through the piston and caused it to crack several times.
Gruß
Volker
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