it sounds weird when I say it but...
it sounds weird when I say it but...
Hi std'ers, how's it going? Good, I hope. I posted this build on peachparts and can finally start posting here(I was a bit antsy winmutt but thanks). I bought a '93 300D almost 2 yrs ago and am starting to get the diesel hp sickness thanks to some badass YouTube videos, mostly hansebangers vid actually. So I'll be slowly but surely transforming my car from a 35mpg, tourtise- slow commuter to a huge hp, 20mpg commuter. Hear me out...
But first, a little about me. I went to tech school and the Mercedes Elite program then got my first real job straight outta high school, I was still 19(for a few months) when I started. I worked in dealerships most of the time. I was the mechanic at the body shop of a Mercedes and BMW dealership for a few years (hated that) and spent a year and a half at a good independent Benz shop. Thankfully I've left the flat rate jobs behind and will fight tooth and nail to not ever go back. I spent 13 years working on benzes and 9 of those years I was Mercedes master certified. I know my way around the 00's benzes pretty well. 90's and 10's I'm good with but not as good. And, I'm happy to share everything I've learned to help someone out. So without further adeu, my ambitious build plan...
-1993 300D (obviously)
-painted white with black interior (it's palomino now and in OK shape)
-500E bumpers, fenders , & skirts with the diesel fender grille grafted on
-18 inch monoblochs, I know they're on every Benz but they look so good
-sportline springs, shocks, struts, & 500E sway bars
-600SL brakes at least. I'd like to do SLK55 brakes with 2 piece front rotors but that may be a side project to the regular project
-om603 mechanical injection pump. Something big enough to support huge hp but can be fine tuned to not be annoying during regular driving and pass an emissions test
-600SL or 400E steering system, lca's, knuckles, & complete rear axle. I'll probably start with 400E and upgrade to 600SL if I feel that the 400E isn't sturdy enough
-W5A580 trans and controller, bulletproofed. I've got two 722.641's from a C32 that an insurance company didn't want back(I'm sure as shit not going to scrap two AMG transmissions). I'll probably need some guidance on how to make these handle loads of power so bear with me
And now the star of the show
-om606 superturbodiesel
-om603 3.5 crankshaft
-steel rods and pistons. My father is a pretty accomplished machinist so the parts to make the stroker work shouldn't be too much of a road block. I'm contemplating steel pistons so I can make the compression height shorter and use as long of a rod as possible
-diy teflon and ceramic coated pistons
-some form of main support and ARP studs from head to toe
-ported and diy ceramic coated head
-diy teflon coated, larger cams with accompanying valve springs and adjustable cam gears
-custom, diy ceramic coated intake and exhaust manifolds
-compound turbos, inter- and after-turbo cooled. Boosted into outer space
All while retaining a/c and p/s so I can commute and destroy anyone on the highway.
I'm going to start with a mostly stock om606 and work on the "big engine" a little at a time.
So that's it. Any thoughts or recommendations are welcome
...I want an std.
Hi std'ers, how's it going? Good, I hope. I posted this build on peachparts and can finally start posting here(I was a bit antsy winmutt but thanks). I bought a '93 300D almost 2 yrs ago and am starting to get the diesel hp sickness thanks to some badass YouTube videos, mostly hansebangers vid actually. So I'll be slowly but surely transforming my car from a 35mpg, tourtise- slow commuter to a huge hp, 20mpg commuter. Hear me out...
But first, a little about me. I went to tech school and the Mercedes Elite program then got my first real job straight outta high school, I was still 19(for a few months) when I started. I worked in dealerships most of the time. I was the mechanic at the body shop of a Mercedes and BMW dealership for a few years (hated that) and spent a year and a half at a good independent Benz shop. Thankfully I've left the flat rate jobs behind and will fight tooth and nail to not ever go back. I spent 13 years working on benzes and 9 of those years I was Mercedes master certified. I know my way around the 00's benzes pretty well. 90's and 10's I'm good with but not as good. And, I'm happy to share everything I've learned to help someone out. So without further adeu, my ambitious build plan...
-1993 300D (obviously)
-painted white with black interior (it's palomino now and in OK shape)
-500E bumpers, fenders , & skirts with the diesel fender grille grafted on
-18 inch monoblochs, I know they're on every Benz but they look so good
-sportline springs, shocks, struts, & 500E sway bars
-600SL brakes at least. I'd like to do SLK55 brakes with 2 piece front rotors but that may be a side project to the regular project
-om603 mechanical injection pump. Something big enough to support huge hp but can be fine tuned to not be annoying during regular driving and pass an emissions test
-600SL or 400E steering system, lca's, knuckles, & complete rear axle. I'll probably start with 400E and upgrade to 600SL if I feel that the 400E isn't sturdy enough
-W5A580 trans and controller, bulletproofed. I've got two 722.641's from a C32 that an insurance company didn't want back(I'm sure as shit not going to scrap two AMG transmissions). I'll probably need some guidance on how to make these handle loads of power so bear with me
And now the star of the show
-om606 superturbodiesel
-om603 3.5 crankshaft
-steel rods and pistons. My father is a pretty accomplished machinist so the parts to make the stroker work shouldn't be too much of a road block. I'm contemplating steel pistons so I can make the compression height shorter and use as long of a rod as possible
-diy teflon and ceramic coated pistons
-some form of main support and ARP studs from head to toe
-ported and diy ceramic coated head
-diy teflon coated, larger cams with accompanying valve springs and adjustable cam gears
-custom, diy ceramic coated intake and exhaust manifolds
-compound turbos, inter- and after-turbo cooled. Boosted into outer space
All while retaining a/c and p/s so I can commute and destroy anyone on the highway.
I'm going to start with a mostly stock om606 and work on the "big engine" a little at a time.
So that's it. Any thoughts or recommendations are welcome
So you are aiming on +1000whp? Then we're two here that has the same goal.
Steel pistons you say? Gonna contact Mahle and have them make a set or what are you thinking there? Same with the rods then. You need a company to custom make the rods if you can't fit standard 149mm rods.
+70psi of boost will be a lot of fun
F-tune Performance
![[Image: V-band_om606.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/V-band_om606.jpg)
![[Image: GTX3582R.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GTX3582R.jpg)
![[Image: gs6-53dz_gearbox.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/gs6-53dz_gearbox.jpg)
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Awesome thread so far mate. Welcome to the "dark" side.
So you are aiming on +1000whp? Then we're two here that has the same goal.
Steel pistons you say? Gonna contact Mahle and have them make a set or what are you thinking there? Same with the rods then. You need a company to custom make the rods if you can't fit standard 149mm rods.
+70psi of boost will be a lot of fun
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Some WW2 era engines used bolt-on stainless crowns on their pistons to stop the melty melty, but that wouldn't help your crown height reduction goal at all..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
I'm also open to any and all ideas concerning pistons and rods. If there is an off-the-shelf option (ha!) I'd entertain that but I know that's unlikely. I would also entertain any piston material too, as long as it could be strong enough and make the stroker a possibility without having the rod ratio so poor that the piston gets wedged in the block when it fires
I've just realized I forgot some stuff. Will be editing the original...
Thanks guys. I don't really have a hp goal other than "a shitload".
I'm also open to any and all ideas concerning pistons and rods. If there is an off-the-shelf option (ha!) I'd entertain that but I know that's unlikely. I would also entertain any piston material too, as long as it could be strong enough and make the stroker a possibility without having the rod ratio so poor that the piston gets wedged in the block when it fires
I've just realized I forgot some stuff. Will be editing the original...
(11-05-2015, 06:49 AM)the D Thanks guys. I don't really have a hp goal other than "a shitload".
I'm also open to any and all ideas concerning pistons and rods. If there is an off-the-shelf option (ha!) I'd entertain that but I know that's unlikely. I would also entertain any piston material too, as long as it could be strong enough and make the stroker a possibility without having the rod ratio so poor that the piston gets wedged in the block when it fires
I've just realized I forgot some stuff. Will be editing the original...
Well the extra 'deck height' you've got to find can be calculated thusly, it's 500cc extra / 6 = 83.33cc per cylinder you need to find.
Use V = pi*r2*h transposed for H = v/(pr*r2) = H will give you extra height you need the piston crown to sit down the bore, what about a combination of milling a bit off the crown (it's thick on the 60X) and also offset grinding the rid bearings, as per A-series capacity increase.
I just think custom pistons is a bit ott.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(11-05-2015, 06:49 AM)the D Thanks guys. I don't really have a hp goal other than "a shitload".
I'm also open to any and all ideas concerning pistons and rods. If there is an off-the-shelf option (ha!) I'd entertain that but I know that's unlikely. I would also entertain any piston material too, as long as it could be strong enough and make the stroker a possibility without having the rod ratio so poor that the piston gets wedged in the block when it fires
I've just realized I forgot some stuff. Will be editing the original...
Well the extra 'deck height' you've got to find can be calculated thusly, it's 500cc extra / 6 = 83.33cc per cylinder you need to find.
Use V = pi*r2*h transposed for H = v/(pr*r2) = H will give you extra height you need the piston crown to sit down the bore, what about a combination of milling a bit off the crown (it's thick on the 60X) and also offset grinding the rid bearings, as per A-series capacity increase.
I just think custom pistons is a bit ott.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
I may actually only piece together the big engine in stages. Piece together the reciprocating assembly and install it over a weekend. Then a built cylinder head. Then work on the inter- and after-cooling system. Then the compound turbo system. That would make it easier to see some progress and not have this giant behemoth taking up valuable garage space.
Maybe. Maybe not. But I will be starting off with a mostly stock engine so it's not like the engine swap will be holding the whole project up. I'll be able to work at it a little bit at a time as funds allow
I may actually only piece together the big engine in stages. Piece together the reciprocating assembly and install it over a weekend. Then a built cylinder head. Then work on the inter- and after-cooling system. Then the compound turbo system. That would make it easier to see some progress and not have this giant behemoth taking up valuable garage space.
Om604 pistons are 89mm with 26mm wrist pin. I can actually supply rods for an om606 3.5 conversion using the om604 pistons.
Would be a cool build
Regarding offset grinding Hario so will that make less stroke or more stroke resulting in even shorter rods/lower piston height or less volume. But I like how you think. If we stay inside the box we'll never get any answers.
Cheers / F
The block requires a 1.1mm decking though
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Alright if we ditch the idea of steel pistons I have an easy solution.
Om604 pistons are 89mm with 26mm wrist pin. I can actually supply rods for an om606 3.5 conversion using the om604 pistons.
Would be a cool build
Regarding offset grinding Hario so will that make less stroke or more stroke resulting in even shorter rods/lower piston height or less volume. But I like how you think. If we stay inside the box we'll never get any answers.
Cheers / F
The block requires a 1.1mm decking though
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Another thought on an extra 500cc too. I know with other platforms that even an extra 200cc coupled with turbocharging makes a huge difference. Even in the Mustang world a few extra cubic inches makes a big difference. So I think if there is an easier option than complete custom, one-off parts this idea will definitely be worth it. Just need to find a 3.5 crank now. Actually, I need to stop debating with myself over suspension components and just pick some damned parts already.
Holy shit, that's awesome. All I need to do now is win the lottery to get this ball rolling. Or sell my stepdaughter into slavery...
Another thought on an extra 500cc too. I know with other platforms that even an extra 200cc coupled with turbocharging makes a huge difference. Even in the Mustang world a few extra cubic inches makes a big difference. So I think if there is an easier option than complete custom, one-off parts this idea will definitely be worth it. Just need to find a 3.5 crank now. Actually, I need to stop debating with myself over suspension components and just pick some damned parts already.
(11-06-2015, 02:46 AM)F.R.A.S Alright if we ditch the idea of steel pistons I have an easy solution.
Om604 pistons are 89mm with 26mm wrist pin. I can actually supply rods for an om606 3.5 conversion using the om604 pistons.
Would be a cool build
Regarding offset grinding Hario so will that make less stroke or more stroke resulting in even shorter rods/lower piston height or less volume. But I like how you think. If we stay inside the box we'll never get any answers.
Cheers / F
The block requires a 1.1mm decking though
Either way FRAS. To lengthen or shorten stroke.
Shit! You offset grind the crank big ends to change the stroke lol, but you need bigger bearings in the rods to take up the material lost obviously.
Offset bore the big ends on the rods to fit rods from a different engine, but again you need custom bearings, this was to fit Japanese motorbike rods into A-series, back in the day.
What is this 3.5 conv. with 604 pistons? You sell rods to use the 3.5 crank in the 606?
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(11-06-2015, 02:46 AM)F.R.A.S Alright if we ditch the idea of steel pistons I have an easy solution.
Om604 pistons are 89mm with 26mm wrist pin. I can actually supply rods for an om606 3.5 conversion using the om604 pistons.
Would be a cool build
Regarding offset grinding Hario so will that make less stroke or more stroke resulting in even shorter rods/lower piston height or less volume. But I like how you think. If we stay inside the box we'll never get any answers.
Cheers / F
The block requires a 1.1mm decking though
Either way FRAS. To lengthen or shorten stroke.
Shit! You offset grind the crank big ends to change the stroke lol, but you need bigger bearings in the rods to take up the material lost obviously.
Offset bore the big ends on the rods to fit rods from a different engine, but again you need custom bearings, this was to fit Japanese motorbike rods into A-series, back in the day.
What is this 3.5 conv. with 604 pistons? You sell rods to use the 3.5 crank in the 606?
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(11-06-2015, 03:32 AM)the D Holy shit, that's awesome. All I need to do now is win the lottery to get this ball rolling. Or sell my stepdaughter into slavery...
Another thought on an extra 500cc too. I know with other platforms that even an extra 200cc coupled with turbocharging makes a huge difference. Even in the Mustang world a few extra cubic inches makes a big difference. So I think if there is an easier option than complete custom, one-off parts this idea will definitely be worth it. Just need to find a 3.5 crank now. Actually, I need to stop debating with myself over suspension components and just pick some damned parts already.
PM me for crank. Include pix of stepdaughter too.
(11-06-2015, 03:32 AM)the D Holy shit, that's awesome. All I need to do now is win the lottery to get this ball rolling. Or sell my stepdaughter into slavery...
Another thought on an extra 500cc too. I know with other platforms that even an extra 200cc coupled with turbocharging makes a huge difference. Even in the Mustang world a few extra cubic inches makes a big difference. So I think if there is an easier option than complete custom, one-off parts this idea will definitely be worth it. Just need to find a 3.5 crank now. Actually, I need to stop debating with myself over suspension components and just pick some damned parts already.
PM me for crank. Include pix of stepdaughter too.
NOT cheap though
(11-06-2015, 07:22 AM)Hario What is this 3.5 conv. with 604 pistons? You sell rods to use the 3.5 crank in the 606?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I have rods to get 3.5-liter in an om606 yes with stock bore and stroke of the 3.5 (89x92,4) if you deck the block 1.1mm you'll have stock 22:1 compression with the om604 (89mm) pistons.
NOT cheap though
(11-06-2015, 07:22 AM)Hario What is this 3.5 conv. with 604 pistons? You sell rods to use the 3.5 crank in the 606?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I bet a small decrease in compression would ultimately be OK since eventually I want to force a million pounds of boost into the damned thing. Longer rods could be used too which is a good thing as well
What would the compression ratio be if the deck height is unchanged? And, how does that affect the timing chain?
I bet a small decrease in compression would ultimately be OK since eventually I want to force a million pounds of boost into the damned thing. Longer rods could be used too which is a good thing as well
but a full 1.1mm will probably be to low. I could offset the small end of the rods for 1mm and therefore get 0.1mm to go and have 1mm longer rods Have to check this out though. Will see if November has the time for this little side project. If I manage to sort this I'm hoping the STD-community will source a 3.5 crank for me
I actually think (yea thinking while I'm writing) that the small end will be a bit thin if I move the wrist pin 1mm. Has to be better to just machine the block that 1mm instead. The chain will be fine, the tensioner will adjust for that.
If the compression stays at like 20:1 the block can be untouched... Need a good math guy here asap
Fun project this
(11-06-2015, 03:50 PM)the D What would the compression ratio be if the deck height is unchanged? And, how does that affect the timing chain?
I bet a small decrease in compression would ultimately be OK since eventually I want to force a million pounds of boost into the damned thing. Longer rods could be used too which is a good thing as well
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I'm really bad at calculating compression but a full 1.1mm will probably be to low. I could offset the small end of the rods for 1mm and therefore get 0.1mm to go and have 1mm longer rods
Have to check this out though. Will see if November has the time for this little side project. If I manage to sort this I'm hoping the STD-community will source a 3.5 crank for me
I actually think (yea thinking while I'm writing) that the small end will be a bit thin if I move the wrist pin 1mm. Has to be better to just machine the block that 1mm instead. The chain will be fine, the tensioner will adjust for that.
If the compression stays at like 20:1 the block can be untouched... Need a good math guy here asap
Fun project this
(11-06-2015, 03:50 PM)the D What would the compression ratio be if the deck height is unchanged? And, how does that affect the timing chain?
I bet a small decrease in compression would ultimately be OK since eventually I want to force a million pounds of boost into the damned thing. Longer rods could be used too which is a good thing as well
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
The 1.1mm gives 17.8:1
1mm 18.1:1
0.6mm 19.48:1
0.5mm 19.85:1
0.4mm 20.25:1
Is that correct???
So if I can offset the rods by 0.6mm to a 0.5mm "lower" piston then stock the compression ratio is 19.85:1 witch in my ears sounds like a decent compression for a damn fast om606
Thanks for the calculation man.
(11-09-2015, 01:00 AM)Edian727 stock height bring you down to 17.8:1, taking out .1mm and that makes it 18.1:1, .5mm out its 19.48:1, .6mm out is 19.85:1, and .7 is 20.25. i personally don't think 17.8:1 is terrible. maybe stock but not if its modified.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Let's see if I understand this.
The 1.1mm gives 17.8:1
1mm 18.1:1
0.6mm 19.48:1
0.5mm 19.85:1
0.4mm 20.25:1
Is that correct???
So if I can offset the rods by 0.6mm to a 0.5mm "lower" piston then stock the compression ratio is 19.85:1 witch in my ears sounds like a decent compression for a damn fast om606
Thanks for the calculation man.
(11-09-2015, 01:00 AM)Edian727 stock height bring you down to 17.8:1, taking out .1mm and that makes it 18.1:1, .5mm out its 19.48:1, .6mm out is 19.85:1, and .7 is 20.25. i personally don't think 17.8:1 is terrible. maybe stock but not if its modified.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I'm gonna start ordering suspension parts this week sometime. New lca's, all bushings, and I'm gonna source an entire rear axle assembly, and larger brakes to rebuild during the winter. The plan is to swap all these parts in the spring along with a set of larger wheels. Then I can start building the transmission and piecing together the engine stuff. Blech, it seems so daunting to think of how much work the car needs to get to the finish line
Good info here, thanks everyone. I think a .5mm shave sounds adequate. Still high enough to start and run like stock but a little lower to handle a million pounds of boost.
I'm gonna start ordering suspension parts this week sometime. New lca's, all bushings, and I'm gonna source an entire rear axle assembly, and larger brakes to rebuild during the winter. The plan is to swap all these parts in the spring along with a set of larger wheels. Then I can start building the transmission and piecing together the engine stuff. Blech, it seems so daunting to think of how much work the car needs to get to the finish line
(11-09-2015, 07:18 AM)F.R.A.S Let's see if I understand this.
The 1.1mm gives 17.8:1
1mm 18.1:1
0.6mm 19.48:1
0.5mm 19.85:1
0.4mm 20.25:1
Is that correct???
So if I can offset the rods by 0.6mm to a 0.5mm "lower" piston then stock the compression ratio is 19.85:1 witch in my ears sounds like a decent compression for a damn fast om606
Thanks for the calculation man.
(11-09-2015, 01:00 AM)Edian727 stock height bring you down to 17.8:1, taking out .1mm and that makes it 18.1:1, .5mm out its 19.48:1, .6mm out is 19.85:1, and .7 is 20.25. i personally don't think 17.8:1 is terrible. maybe stock but not if its modified.
yea but these will only work for the stroker tho, the 3.0 is gonna be slightly lower. I love math and this was fun so thank you
(11-09-2015, 07:18 AM)F.R.A.S Let's see if I understand this.
The 1.1mm gives 17.8:1
1mm 18.1:1
0.6mm 19.48:1
0.5mm 19.85:1
0.4mm 20.25:1
Is that correct???
So if I can offset the rods by 0.6mm to a 0.5mm "lower" piston then stock the compression ratio is 19.85:1 witch in my ears sounds like a decent compression for a damn fast om606
Thanks for the calculation man.
(11-09-2015, 01:00 AM)Edian727 stock height bring you down to 17.8:1, taking out .1mm and that makes it 18.1:1, .5mm out its 19.48:1, .6mm out is 19.85:1, and .7 is 20.25. i personally don't think 17.8:1 is terrible. maybe stock but not if its modified.
yea but these will only work for the stroker tho, the 3.0 is gonna be slightly lower. I love math and this was fun so thank you
I'd suggest looking at this to get an idea of airflow requirements etc.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=we...-dn20s12LA
I'd suggest looking at this to get an idea of airflow requirements etc.
Side note. Has anyone read Fundamentals of Turbocharging by Nicolas C Baines? It looks promising and I need something more substantial than Maximum Boost.
I already have that downloaded onto my phone and have been reading about compound setups for a few months already. Thank you though
Side note. Has anyone read Fundamentals of Turbocharging by Nicolas C Baines? It looks promising and I need something more substantial than Maximum Boost.
I have 'Forced Induction Performance Tuning' by Graham Bell is very good and I would say not for beginners, lots of build details from intercoolers to manifold design and everything in between, although for gassers but 95% still applies apart from the ignition chapter.
'Turbochargers' by Hugh Macinnes (HPBooks) has 3 whole pages on how to compound turbocharge a tractor puller by the way. It's very old, maybe 70's. Very good read, would recommend.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
At 135 bucks that fundamentals book is probably going to be lots of fluid dynamics and not much about real world stuff we are looking for.
I have 'Forced Induction Performance Tuning' by Graham Bell is very good and I would say not for beginners, lots of build details from intercoolers to manifold design and everything in between, although for gassers but 95% still applies apart from the ignition chapter.
'Turbochargers' by Hugh Macinnes (HPBooks) has 3 whole pages on how to compound turbocharge a tractor puller by the way. It's very old, maybe 70's. Very good read, would recommend.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
also specify what boost youll need or at what point you think boost will build
Once you know a ball park for these figures then you can go select a turbo based on these and play around with different turbines for different results.
Ive read turbo books before and there not simple formula to indicate what youll need, plus many only specify petrol turbos. that will give different power for there flow rates.
Due to different air/ flue ratios.
also the calculator will give you a great idea how to read a flow map.
I played around with it and realised certain turbos others use are way off the mark or are being run inefficiently but with clever boost control can be run with good delivery all round
like using a smaller hp turbo and having it scale its boost back based on rpm gives excellent spool and then completely bypassing it when a lp turbo is on boost.
acts like a single turbo low down, compound mid way and single turbo up high.
But it depends how in depth you want to go or where you want your power band , i was working out an idea all over torque of 4-500ft-lbs for that application.
Using the compound calculator you should be able to calculate power requirements and turbo flow rates from it for lp and hp turbos.
also specify what boost youll need or at what point you think boost will build
Once you know a ball park for these figures then you can go select a turbo based on these and play around with different turbines for different results.
Ive read turbo books before and there not simple formula to indicate what youll need, plus many only specify petrol turbos. that will give different power for there flow rates.
Due to different air/ flue ratios.
also the calculator will give you a great idea how to read a flow map.
I played around with it and realised certain turbos others use are way off the mark or are being run inefficiently but with clever boost control can be run with good delivery all round
like using a smaller hp turbo and having it scale its boost back based on rpm gives excellent spool and then completely bypassing it when a lp turbo is on boost.
acts like a single turbo low down, compound mid way and single turbo up high.
But it depends how in depth you want to go or where you want your power band , i was working out an idea all over torque of 4-500ft-lbs for that application.
Hario can you please explain what you mean with
-"At 135 bucks that fundamentals book is probably going to be lots of fluid dynamics and not much about real world stuff we are looking for."
why not use match boot if you understand the basics about fluid dynamics and turbo machinery it is of interest to see what different turbos and combinations can do, the limitation would be that holset turbo can not be simulated, or simply I have not figger out that part yet, garret and borg warner will do but with some qualified guesses, but it also mean that you need to have some compressor and turbine maps
Hario can you please explain what you mean with
-"At 135 bucks that fundamentals book is probably going to be lots of fluid dynamics and not much about real world stuff we are looking for."
Also for these big hp numbers you are going to run into burn rate issues. I think that getting the fuel in the cylinder and on fire and making power with it at higher rpm, and high rpm is going to be required is eventually a limit as well. The high rpm shortens your combustion time requirements and alternative fuels will probably be required.
At least these are the concerns I have for the build I am doing.
whipplem104
11-11-2015, 10:43 AM #26The problem you have in calculating anything is that you do not know what the head will breath. Your VE. Also this will change as you go up in air flow. These motors have relatively small valves and low lift. Ultimately you are limited to how much the head will breath. Without custom CAMs, bigger valves, and some work to the head you are going to eventually hit a wall that boost is going to have a very diminishing return.
Also for these big hp numbers you are going to run into burn rate issues. I think that getting the fuel in the cylinder and on fire and making power with it at higher rpm, and high rpm is going to be required is eventually a limit as well. The high rpm shortens your combustion time requirements and alternative fuels will probably be required.
At least these are the concerns I have for the build I am doing.
But same constant valve times is a headache
once some said that the bumblebee could not fly, it did not care and did fly anyway...
well many things in life is bout approximation of some parameters so you can get started, and some calculations can make you see things that was not that apparent in the beginning, but to be able to simulate and connect to real measurement can get you pretty fare, it quite much to utilise what you have and gain efficiency but eventually some trade of. My LP turbo is for efficiency even if turbine efficiency is not that great, HP is manly for response, the weight difference between HP and LP is huge both in size and weight, but is was only combination that I could find was able to do what I wanted it to do
But same constant valve times is a headache
once some said that the bumblebee could not fly, it did not care and did fly anyway...
Honestly I think the burn rate is a bigger issue with high rpms and that is not so easily dealt with. And if you want to make hp then you have to spin up the engine because these little engines are not going to make 1500lb/ft of torque and 1000hp at 3500 rpm like a big diesel.
whipplem104
11-11-2015, 08:28 PM #28I agree but when you hit the wall on air flow through a restrictor then it is game over. No more air will flow it goes supersonic and that is it. So when is that. Well you can calculate that but pesky things like turbulence around a bowl and and valve face and stem etc etc are hard to deal with and then yes you are in the hypothesis world or just try and fly anyway like the bee.
Honestly I think the burn rate is a bigger issue with high rpms and that is not so easily dealt with. And if you want to make hp then you have to spin up the engine because these little engines are not going to make 1500lb/ft of torque and 1000hp at 3500 rpm like a big diesel.
I ordered the above-mentioned book, it'll be here next week sometime. At some point I'll pick up the McIness book too, all knowledge is worth having after all.
Does anyone know if there are oversized valves for the om606? I did a quick Google search last night that didn't come up with anything but that doesn't mean anything. Has anyone ever else found something larger? Or even something that is close that could be made to work?
I ordered the above-mentioned book, it'll be here next week sometime. At some point I'll pick up the McIness book too, all knowledge is worth having after all.
(11-12-2015, 08:48 PM)the D Does anyone know if there are oversized valves for the om606? I did a quick Google search last night that didn't come up with anything but that doesn't mean anything. Has anyone ever else found something larger? Or even something that is close that could be made to work?
I ordered the above-mentioned book, it'll be here next week sometime. At some point I'll pick up the McIness book too, all knowledge is worth having after all.
There isn't a oversize valve that is easily done as the valves are just about at the fire ring of the headgasket. I looked into offset guides to oversize the valves but that makes more issues then it's worth.
Duncansport
11-13-2015, 10:36 AM #30(11-12-2015, 08:48 PM)the D Does anyone know if there are oversized valves for the om606? I did a quick Google search last night that didn't come up with anything but that doesn't mean anything. Has anyone ever else found something larger? Or even something that is close that could be made to work?
I ordered the above-mentioned book, it'll be here next week sometime. At some point I'll pick up the McIness book too, all knowledge is worth having after all.
There isn't a oversize valve that is easily done as the valves are just about at the fire ring of the headgasket. I looked into offset guides to oversize the valves but that makes more issues then it's worth.
Is there room for even a 1mm oversize valve at intake and exhaust that's a direct, or almost direct, fit? I'm sure any build that is still using stock rods wouldn't need this sort of attention to detail but if someone is going to push the om606 envelope this could be useful info.
As far as the valves go. The intake is pretty much at the limit. The exhaust has a little room. You would be better served increasing lift than trying to go with a larger valve face.
whipplem104
11-13-2015, 08:09 PM #32I do not know if you know but the om606 comes with a forged rod. They are pretty strong.
As far as the valves go. The intake is pretty much at the limit. The exhaust has a little room. You would be better served increasing lift than trying to go with a larger valve face.
My plan was to build another head and swap it when I had it fully prepped. I'll just have to leave the valve sizes alone and concentrate on other areas of the head
I know the 606 has good rods and the .96x has better rods but I've read that the .96x is good to approximately 600hp. Is that accurate?
My plan was to build another head and swap it when I had it fully prepped. I'll just have to leave the valve sizes alone and concentrate on other areas of the head
whipplem104
11-14-2015, 10:15 AM #34To many things can come into play on when a rod fails. 1st off dyno sheets are hard to come by on these engines and especially ones that are above 3-400hp. ALso I am guessing that most rod failures on this forum are from spinning the motor up and that is more an issue of the mass of the piston and pin. If people were actually having problems on the power stroke bending the rod then there are several factors to consider. All basically come back to peak cylinder pressure. This is why I am seriously considering putting pressures sensor equipped glow plugs in to measure and adjust timing accordingly.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
When we're talking 89mm bore there is room for the bigger valve
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
whipplem104
11-17-2015, 03:49 PM #38Where are you getting a headgasket for 89mm bore? THe only oversize is 87.8mm. Are you laser or waterjet cutting and how far can you go before you are in the compression ring?
(11-17-2015, 03:49 PM)whipplem104 Where are you getting a headgasket for 89mm bore? THe only oversize is 87.8mm. Are you laser or waterjet cutting and how far can you go before you are in the compression ring?I think I've seen references to a company that will make, or modify, a multi-layer gasket.
(11-17-2015, 04:30 PM)hooblah If fitting larger valves is going to be an issue, why not regrind the cams to increase lift?Larger cams will be fitted as well
(11-17-2015, 03:49 PM)whipplem104 Where are you getting a headgasket for 89mm bore? THe only oversize is 87.8mm. Are you laser or waterjet cutting and how far can you go before you are in the compression ring?I think I've seen references to a company that will make, or modify, a multi-layer gasket.
(11-17-2015, 04:30 PM)hooblah If fitting larger valves is going to be an issue, why not regrind the cams to increase lift?Larger cams will be fitted as well
I just think that you are barking up the wrong tree. Can make more power than any pump can deliver with the cams and valves that are in there at probably around 40-45lbs of boost. At most I would consider is a custom grind and valve springs and maybe solid pucks.
whipplem104
11-17-2015, 11:04 PM #42Anything can be made. You can only cut a gasket so far before you are in the compression area of the gasket. It seemed to be implied that the 89mm bore had been done and I assume there was a solution for the gasket. Because if not I and you are going down that road. Go a little bigger on the bore. I would go 90mm. There is still plenty of room for the head gasket to work properly. Then you might gain enough room to do something with the valves. If you gain 2mm bore then you could go 2mm on the intake and still have clearance. But just fyi you are going to spend 10,000 dollars putting larger valves, seats, guides, custom cams, springs, etcc. I went down this road a few years back on a gas mercedes engine and it just kept exploding into more and more money. I was doing camshafts and to go where I wanted it required. Thousands and thousands of work on the head to get the lift I wanted. Then we were running into problems with the overhead buckets and the ramp on the cam etc. etc. I just finally decided enough was enough and did what we could on the camshafts and added a couple more pounds of boost.
I just think that you are barking up the wrong tree. Can make more power than any pump can deliver with the cams and valves that are in there at probably around 40-45lbs of boost. At most I would consider is a custom grind and valve springs and maybe solid pucks.
(11-17-2015, 05:36 PM)Mr_Robs Subbed for more! Loving the discussion in this thread, im sure we will see some awesome results.
Thanks rob, I'm checking into your thread as well.
As for the head work, I'm not necessarily going "top fuel" prep on it. I won't mind spending some money on the head prep but this isn't going to be a "blank check" build. Springs and cams are definitely a go, light port/polish is probably going to happen but I'll do it myself a little bit here and there before it gets assembled and installed. Bigger valves are going to be decided by $$$. If it's going to legitimately be $5K I probably won't pull the trigger. That money will get sunk into the turbos or charge cooling system
(11-17-2015, 05:36 PM)Mr_Robs Subbed for more! Loving the discussion in this thread, im sure we will see some awesome results.
Thanks rob, I'm checking into your thread as well.
As for the head work, I'm not necessarily going "top fuel" prep on it. I won't mind spending some money on the head prep but this isn't going to be a "blank check" build. Springs and cams are definitely a go, light port/polish is probably going to happen but I'll do it myself a little bit here and there before it gets assembled and installed. Bigger valves are going to be decided by $$$. If it's going to legitimately be $5K I probably won't pull the trigger. That money will get sunk into the turbos or charge cooling system
So that's not a problem.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
We have machined an 87mm steel gasket to 89mm So that's not a problem.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
(11-17-2015, 11:04 PM)whipplem104 Anything can be made.
I just think that you are barking up the wrong tree. Can make more power than any pump can deliver with the cams and valves that are in there at probably around 40-45lbs of boost. At most I would consider is a custom grind and valve springs and maybe solid pucks.
What are these solid pucks of which you speak?
What afr are you talking? I get to 40psi on 120cc at 17:1. You are up over 65psi at the power levels you are talking about.
atypicalguy
02-15-2016, 07:49 AM #45(11-17-2015, 11:04 PM)whipplem104 Anything can be made.
I just think that you are barking up the wrong tree. Can make more power than any pump can deliver with the cams and valves that are in there at probably around 40-45lbs of boost. At most I would consider is a custom grind and valve springs and maybe solid pucks.
What are these solid pucks of which you speak?
What afr are you talking? I get to 40psi on 120cc at 17:1. You are up over 65psi at the power levels you are talking about.
Are you maintaining 40psi through the power band and what is your back pressure? What is your boost and exhaust back pressure at 6000 rpm?
These are questions about cfm not pressure so much. The point is that you can get an engine to breath more air at higher boost pressures or with more lift and bigger valves, porting, etc.
So I do not know what your setup is but say you are flowing 300 cfm at 2500 rpm at 40 psi. At 5000 rpm you would hopefully be flowing 600cfm at that same boost pressure. But probably not. The engines ability to breath air is actually not linear. Your turbo is not linear either. Even if you maintain 40 psi of boost you may be going from 20psi or even 40 psi of back pressure to 80 psi of back pressure. Now you have a 2:1 pressure ratio on the turbo. The engine cannot expel the exhaust gases any more and therefore it cannot get fresh air to burn in.
whipplem104
02-18-2016, 09:42 AM #46I was referring to solid lifter buckets. With a lash setting instead of hydraulic.
Are you maintaining 40psi through the power band and what is your back pressure? What is your boost and exhaust back pressure at 6000 rpm?
These are questions about cfm not pressure so much. The point is that you can get an engine to breath more air at higher boost pressures or with more lift and bigger valves, porting, etc.
So I do not know what your setup is but say you are flowing 300 cfm at 2500 rpm at 40 psi. At 5000 rpm you would hopefully be flowing 600cfm at that same boost pressure. But probably not. The engines ability to breath air is actually not linear. Your turbo is not linear either. Even if you maintain 40 psi of boost you may be going from 20psi or even 40 psi of back pressure to 80 psi of back pressure. Now you have a 2:1 pressure ratio on the turbo. The engine cannot expel the exhaust gases any more and therefore it cannot get fresh air to burn in.
Thanks for the electronic wastegate idea. It seems critical for compounds.
I am still sorting out whether a 16cm housing is big enough on the he451 to run over the 6cm hx30. But an hx 40 worked in theory, so this will prob be ok until high rpm. I have the pump limited at 5500 now regardless.
atypicalguy
02-18-2016, 01:06 PM #47I think most folks are burning like 13:1 AFR for short dyno runs. Not safe for EGT. To cram enough air in for 17:1 at high fuel level takes more turbo than most people are prepared to sort out. You are talking 200bhp/L. That is extremely high performance.
Thanks for the electronic wastegate idea. It seems critical for compounds.
I am still sorting out whether a 16cm housing is big enough on the he451 to run over the 6cm hx30. But an hx 40 worked in theory, so this will prob be ok until high rpm. I have the pump limited at 5500 now regardless.
whipplem104
02-18-2016, 03:27 PM #48Really 200 bhp/l is not that much. Many 400hp 2l engines in the world and 600hp 3.0l engines. But you are right to the point that most do not spend the money to get to these numbers and it is not just a turbo or manifold it is the whole kit. I agree ideally a full port job with bigger valves and big cams etc would be great but you still need a turbo to feed the cfm. You could just do it at lower boost levels. But spend the all that money and you could simply do a lot of cheaper things to get to your goals. And like I said you have to have the injection pump to put the fuel in the engine in the 1st place. And the engine has to burn all of it. The turbo we are using is able to put out over 1000cfm. And that is if we can get it in the engine and it boosts early enough. But that is what a little nitrous is for if we cant.
Oh man, I love it when life gets in the way of...everything. I've been busy the last year or so getting married, getting my wife through grad school, & making a baby. So I haven't done anything to my car, which sucks. I haven't given up on my std vision though. But I have been experiencing significant scope creep. Visions of a W123 coupe with an om628/9 swapped have been clanging around my skull. I don't have anything real or tangible to report, these are just ramblings.
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