Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front
Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front
Well the damage is done, I'll make a new tool later but for the time being I gotta figure out how to get the old damaged collars out. I'm gonna try a chisel first , then go try find the right threads and weld in a bolt , I don't have any spare injectors to use.. does anyone know what the coarse threads are for the collar
(06-05-2013, 07:25 PM)poleshady Well the damage is done, I'll make a new tool later but for the time being I gotta figure out how to get the old damaged collars out. I'm gonna try a chisel first , then go try find the right threads and weld in a bolt , I don't have any spare injectors to use.. does anyone know what the coarse threads are for the collar
I will go through my notes and find the drawing I made for my tools. I will post the thread specks for you.
EDIT:
The injector thread is 24mm X 2.0 pitch
(06-05-2013, 07:25 PM)poleshady Well the damage is done, I'll make a new tool later but for the time being I gotta figure out how to get the old damaged collars out. I'm gonna try a chisel first , then go try find the right threads and weld in a bolt , I don't have any spare injectors to use.. does anyone know what the coarse threads are for the collar
I will go through my notes and find the drawing I made for my tools. I will post the thread specks for you.
EDIT:
The injector thread is 24mm X 2.0 pitch
i got 3 pre chambers out, one is stuck in there, so its soaking with some penetrating oil tonight.
here is one of the ones i pulled, is this in good shape?
and ill start looking for some reamers tomorrow. did you open up the rear two smaller holes also? but left the bottom hole alone right?
thanks ill call around and try to find a bolt like that.
i got 3 pre chambers out, one is stuck in there, so its soaking with some penetrating oil tonight.
here is one of the ones i pulled, is this in good shape?
and ill start looking for some reamers tomorrow. did you open up the rear two smaller holes also? but left the bottom hole alone right?
Personally I drill out all the holes but the bottom one as you mentioned, that is drain hole. You will get lots of different recommendations here as some will say only do the big three holes, some say do them all, and some say don't do any of them lol
From the pic it looks ok, but check the bar in the center of the chamber and be sure it is tight.
Personally I drill out all the holes but the bottom one as you mentioned, that is drain hole. You will get lots of different recommendations here as some will say only do the big three holes, some say do them all, and some say don't do any of them lol
The same guy has some other very interesting patents on behalf of Chrysler about insulating the prechambers. Worth a read.
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/6065441
I know, old thread, but I came across this patent filed in 2001 and thought I'd share it since it has to do with the subject.
The same guy has some other very interesting patents on behalf of Chrysler about insulating the prechambers. Worth a read.
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/6065441
, I'm gonna go ahead and screw up my pc's while I'm at it. Granted, I have no intention on a dyno run unless both free and unrealistically convenient, who cares lol, but some loud obnoxious videos are guaranteed. Also though, I'd be curious to the idea of adding significantly smaller holes between the others and maybe even a little bit closer to the tip creating something of a "crown" pattern, again sized in gradient but tiny, in an attempt to create a pressure wave that is more centrally energetic/downwardly cuncussive without getting too crazy over the latter one that distributes energy, ideally, pretty much uniformly. Hopefully I get an eyebrow or two lifted with this.
PanicButton
08-15-2015, 03:41 AM #306I have to add, could be wrong here, but if anyone has ever paid attention to the carbon buildup on the piston in relation to pc holes, it seems pretty clear that the different diameters are there to control the pressure expansion in relation to the pc's location in the combustion chamber. As it is off center in the cylinder, the holes get progressively larger relative to distance from the cylinder walls. Look at the score marks. Smallest at the points where the prechamber is closest to the wall. Makes sense, consider how you'd like a pressure wave to behave in an environment where it originates off center, yet uniform expansion is desirable. Want all that extra pressure bouncing of cylinder walls and hammering down on one side of the piston significantly more than the other? Maybe splitting hairs here, but assuming we've more or less accepted that more pc flow is desirable, stands to reason that ideally you'd like to introduce more holes on a spacing and sizing gradient consistent with the existing trends and conically port them on a very slight negative axis (10-15 degrees?). Nice even expansion that way with the added bonus of a little extra downward encouragement. I'd imagine a decent egt drop over just increasing bore because of the theoretical possibility of less work being wasted and mayyyybe even some more love on the low end. I've got my 617a torn up for a rebuild, heads currently on my coffee table(yeehaw) receiving a fairly aggressive port/polish job, and, along with other goodies , I'm gonna go ahead and screw up my pc's while I'm at it. Granted, I have no intention on a dyno run unless both free and unrealistically convenient, who cares lol, but some loud obnoxious videos are guaranteed. Also though, I'd be curious to the idea of adding significantly smaller holes between the others and maybe even a little bit closer to the tip creating something of a "crown" pattern, again sized in gradient but tiny, in an attempt to create a pressure wave that is more centrally energetic/downwardly cuncussive without getting too crazy over the latter one that distributes energy, ideally, pretty much uniformly. Hopefully I get an eyebrow or two lifted with this.
Juuuuust sayin...
PanicButton
08-15-2015, 04:03 AM #307Just to clarify, I noted on every piston head that the carbon buildup was very heavily concentrated in areas where the prechamber was closest to the cylinder wall, and especially in the areas around the smallest prechamber holes exhaust and were subject to the most turbulence. Now, in a perfect world one would think that a properly distributed combustion event would be unlikely to leave consistently localized deposits.
Juuuuust sayin...
So after a long period, I started working on the engine again, Anyone now the torque or angle to set the prechamber retainer ring? i've read at peachpart is was 130nm but it was the only source I could find an I want to be sure it's correctly tightnent. Multiple shop manuals don't show the prechamber, only headgaskets, glowplugs etc.
(08-30-2015, 08:49 AM)barrote hi,
2 valve engines 100 for vertical injector, 130 for inclined injector , 4 valve 130.
130nm on 4 valve?
Mercedes manual say 40nm on 4 valve.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
(08-30-2015, 08:49 AM)barrote hi,
2 valve engines 100 for vertical injector, 130 for inclined injector , 4 valve 130.
130nm on 4 valve?
Mercedes manual say 40nm on 4 valve.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-24-2015, 04:06 AM #314Have run My hogged out Pre-Chambers for over a year. Pulled head today and pistons look great even though the bottom hole is also drilled.
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
(11-24-2015, 04:06 AM)Captain America Have run My hogged out Pre-Chambers for over a year. Pulled head today and pistons look great even though the bottom hole is also drilled.
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
Hey captain, seeing as you are one of the forerunnerswith all this, just wondering if you could post some pics of that damage and your pistons. Just curious to see if there's any pattern that makes my head start to itch..
PanicButton
11-24-2015, 02:09 PM #315(11-24-2015, 04:06 AM)Captain America Have run My hogged out Pre-Chambers for over a year. Pulled head today and pistons look great even though the bottom hole is also drilled.
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
Hey captain, seeing as you are one of the forerunnerswith all this, just wondering if you could post some pics of that damage and your pistons. Just curious to see if there's any pattern that makes my head start to itch..
(11-24-2015, 02:09 PM)PanicButton(11-24-2015, 04:06 AM)Captain America Have run My hogged out Pre-Chambers for over a year. Pulled head today and pistons look great even though the bottom hole is also drilled.
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
Hey captain, seeing as you are one of the forerunnerswith all this, just wondering if you could post some pics of that damage and your pistons. Just curious to see if there's any pattern that makes my head start to itch..
Everything looks beautiful. Almost no carbon buildup either considering I have my pump turned up a lot. I'll post pics tonight
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-24-2015, 02:47 PM #316(11-24-2015, 02:09 PM)PanicButton(11-24-2015, 04:06 AM)Captain America Have run My hogged out Pre-Chambers for over a year. Pulled head today and pistons look great even though the bottom hole is also drilled.
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
Hey captain, seeing as you are one of the forerunnerswith all this, just wondering if you could post some pics of that damage and your pistons. Just curious to see if there's any pattern that makes my head start to itch..
Everything looks beautiful. Almost no carbon buildup either considering I have my pump turned up a lot. I'll post pics tonight
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
![[Image: IMG_20151124_162625486-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_162625486-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_20151124_162635353_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_162635353_HDR-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: edited_IMG_20151123_202647.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/edited_IMG_20151123_202647.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_20151124_162642590_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_162642590_HDR-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: edited_IMG_20151123_202617.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/edited_IMG_20151123_202617.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_20151124_162648499_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_162648499_HDR-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: edited_IMG_20151123_202706.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/edited_IMG_20151123_202706.jpg)
And now the pistons
This is only after wiping them with a rag
![[Image: IMG_20151124_162740695_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_162740695_HDR-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_20151124_162747331-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_162747331-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_20151124_163817499_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_163817499_HDR-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_20151124_163925547_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_163925547_HDR-800x600.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_20151124_164009903_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_164009903_HDR-800x600.jpg)
Number 5 I did not wipe just to show what it looked like when I pulled the head off
![[Image: IMG_20151124_164029836_HDR-800x600.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/IMG_20151124_164029836_HDR-800x600.jpg)
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-24-2015, 11:05 PM #317Here is the cracked head cyl 2, 3, 4, ( I dont think the Pre-Chambers had anything to do with this)
And now the pistons
This is only after wiping them with a rag
Number 5 I did not wipe just to show what it looked like when I pulled the head off
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
I'm assuming your cooling system was working fine, right? No overheating, etc...
raysorenson
11-25-2015, 09:01 AM #319Maybe the PC's didn't have anything to do with it. However, your PC's are the most hogged out ones I've ever seen and now a cylinder head not known for cracking has cracked in multiple cylinders. It should be considered a data point. Thank's for sharing the info.
I'm assuming your cooling system was working fine, right? No overheating, etc...
(11-25-2015, 06:31 AM)hooblah Isn't head cracking a common problem with 603's?
Yes but this is a OM617.951
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-25-2015, 11:08 AM #320(11-25-2015, 06:31 AM)hooblah Isn't head cracking a common problem with 603's?
Yes but this is a OM617.951
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
(11-25-2015, 09:01 AM)raysorenson Maybe the PC's didn't have anything to do with it. However, your PC's are the most hogged out ones I've ever seen and now a cylinder head not known for cracking has cracked in multiple cylinders. It should be considered a data point. Thank's for sharing the info.
I'm assuming your cooling system was working fine, right? No overheating, etc...
I say it's mute only because you can find a good amount of similar cracking in other thread on peachparts and such. Just even a search of OM617 head will result in cracked heads. DieselBoy said he had 2 heads with cracks and ForcedIdnduction has been trolling me on my YouTube this week and I saw his head had cracking also.
Cooling system was perfect and the engine ran perfect. I would have never known the head was cracked. Coolant temps never got hot, didn't use water, always felt like it made consistent power.
These pre-chamber will go in the next engine for sure
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-25-2015, 11:12 AM #321(11-25-2015, 09:01 AM)raysorenson Maybe the PC's didn't have anything to do with it. However, your PC's are the most hogged out ones I've ever seen and now a cylinder head not known for cracking has cracked in multiple cylinders. It should be considered a data point. Thank's for sharing the info.
I'm assuming your cooling system was working fine, right? No overheating, etc...
I say it's mute only because you can find a good amount of similar cracking in other thread on peachparts and such. Just even a search of OM617 head will result in cracked heads. DieselBoy said he had 2 heads with cracks and ForcedIdnduction has been trolling me on my YouTube this week and I saw his head had cracking also.
Cooling system was perfect and the engine ran perfect. I would have never known the head was cracked. Coolant temps never got hot, didn't use water, always felt like it made consistent power.
These pre-chamber will go in the next engine for sure
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
(11-24-2015, 04:06 AM)Captain America Have run My hogged out Pre-Chambers for over a year. Pulled head today and pistons look great even though the bottom hole is also drilled.
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
How big did you enlarge the holes to? How temps have you seen on your EGT? For how long? How much fuel are you putting in? Which all leads to - why do you think your head has cracks? ...and lastly- if the engine is running fine are you going to reinstall the head or a buy a new one?
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
(11-24-2015, 04:06 AM)Captain America Have run My hogged out Pre-Chambers for over a year. Pulled head today and pistons look great even though the bottom hole is also drilled.
Problem is head is cracked Cylinders 2, 3, and 4 ....
How big did you enlarge the holes to? How temps have you seen on your EGT? For how long? How much fuel are you putting in? Which all leads to - why do you think your head has cracks? ...and lastly- if the engine is running fine are you going to reinstall the head or a buy a new one?
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
(11-25-2015, 11:42 AM)MTUPower How big did you enlarge the holes to? How temps have you seen on your EGT? For how long? How much fuel are you putting in? Which all leads to - why do you think your head has cracks? ...and lastly- if the engine is running fine are you going to reinstall the head or a buy a new one?
3 Front holes are at .203
2 Rear holes are at .157
Bottom Hole at .126
![[Image: IMG_20140111_101408.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140111_101408.jpg)
Highest temp Ive seen is right at 1250f for a few seconds, and that is right before the turbo is spooled (running 16 psi with pump turned up by me)
Making a looooooooong pull temps sit at just over 1200f
the engine got hot a few times enough to boil water out of the reservoir tank that may have done it. that's the only thing I can think. I will acquire a new head and port it
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-25-2015, 12:43 PM #323(11-25-2015, 11:42 AM)MTUPower How big did you enlarge the holes to? How temps have you seen on your EGT? For how long? How much fuel are you putting in? Which all leads to - why do you think your head has cracks? ...and lastly- if the engine is running fine are you going to reinstall the head or a buy a new one?
3 Front holes are at .203
2 Rear holes are at .157
Bottom Hole at .126
Highest temp Ive seen is right at 1250f for a few seconds, and that is right before the turbo is spooled (running 16 psi with pump turned up by me)
Making a looooooooong pull temps sit at just over 1200f
the engine got hot a few times enough to boil water out of the reservoir tank that may have done it. that's the only thing I can think. I will acquire a new head and port it
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-25-2015, 12:54 PM #324I might add that when the engine got hot those few times I was under full boost high rpm for too long lol either going through mud or in the sand. Full load on the engine while pushing hot water out
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Is your A/w intercooler plumbed seperate or into the cooling system?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
That brings to question in my mind, was your cooling system working correctly? Unless you were hogging on it for 10 minutes straight, I figured the cooling system would be adequate.
Is your A/w intercooler plumbed seperate or into the cooling system?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
those holes in the precup are too wide, they are not consistente with what people is doing in here (europe) usually we d open them 25% max , my experience is in 4 valve engines and usually what works best is diff hole size , with out never exceed the 25% the botom hole stays 1.75 and the others u have them in the 25% band, i used 2.50 and 3.00 mm the only thing i gain from using the 3.0mm was noise and vibes.
my head is still toguether but i would bet vibes are killing the head.
good luck with it.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
sorry to interrupt , but cracks does not have to do with vibes....
those holes in the precup are too wide, they are not consistente with what people is doing in here (europe) usually we d open them 25% max , my experience is in 4 valve engines and usually what works best is diff hole size , with out never exceed the 25% the botom hole stays 1.75 and the others u have them in the 25% band, i used 2.50 and 3.00 mm the only thing i gain from using the 3.0mm was noise and vibes.
my head is still toguether but i would bet vibes are killing the head.
good luck with it.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(11-25-2015, 05:08 PM)barrote sorry to interrupt , but cracks does not have to do with vibes....
those holes in the precup are too wide, they are not consistente with what people is doing in here (europe) usually we d open them 25% max , my experience is in 4 valve engines and usually what works best is diff hole size , with out never exceed the 25% the botom hole stays 1.75 and the others u have them in the 25% band, i used 2.50 and 3.00 mm the only thing i gain from using the 3.0mm was noise and vibes.
my head is still toguether but i would bet vibes are killing the head.
good luck with it.
You are saying my precups did help create the cracks or no?
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-25-2015, 09:26 PM #327(11-25-2015, 05:08 PM)barrote sorry to interrupt , but cracks does not have to do with vibes....
those holes in the precup are too wide, they are not consistente with what people is doing in here (europe) usually we d open them 25% max , my experience is in 4 valve engines and usually what works best is diff hole size , with out never exceed the 25% the botom hole stays 1.75 and the others u have them in the 25% band, i used 2.50 and 3.00 mm the only thing i gain from using the 3.0mm was noise and vibes.
my head is still toguether but i would bet vibes are killing the head.
good luck with it.
You are saying my precups did help create the cracks or no?
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
(11-25-2015, 01:11 PM)MFSuper90 That brings to question in my mind, was your cooling system working correctly? Unless you were hogging on it for 10 minutes straight, I figured the cooling system would be adequate.
Is your A/w intercooler plumbed seperate or into the cooling system?
Cooling system was perfect but I have no fan except the aux fan that blows air through thr A/C condenser. only time it would ever get hot is when I was flogging it for a long time, like I said through the mud or sand.
A/w was not plumbed with water
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-25-2015, 09:29 PM #328(11-25-2015, 01:11 PM)MFSuper90 That brings to question in my mind, was your cooling system working correctly? Unless you were hogging on it for 10 minutes straight, I figured the cooling system would be adequate.
Is your A/w intercooler plumbed seperate or into the cooling system?
Cooling system was perfect but I have no fan except the aux fan that blows air through thr A/C condenser. only time it would ever get hot is when I was flogging it for a long time, like I said through the mud or sand.
A/w was not plumbed with water
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
(11-25-2015, 05:08 PM)barrote sorry to interrupt , but cracks does not have to do with vibes....
those holes in the precup are too wide, they are not consistente with what people is doing in here (europe) usually we d open them 25% max , my experience is in 4 valve engines and usually what works best is diff hole size , with out never exceed the 25% the botom hole stays 1.75 and the others u have them in the 25% band, i used 2.50 and 3.00 mm the only thing i gain from using the 3.0mm was noise and vibes.
my head is still toguether but i would bet vibes are killing the head.
good luck with it.
LOL... Then you really wont like what I am doing with my PCs lol...... I am going to machine a slot along all three front holes making a mouth so to speak.
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
(11-25-2015, 05:08 PM)barrote sorry to interrupt , but cracks does not have to do with vibes....
those holes in the precup are too wide, they are not consistente with what people is doing in here (europe) usually we d open them 25% max , my experience is in 4 valve engines and usually what works best is diff hole size , with out never exceed the 25% the botom hole stays 1.75 and the others u have them in the 25% band, i used 2.50 and 3.00 mm the only thing i gain from using the 3.0mm was noise and vibes.
my head is still toguether but i would bet vibes are killing the head.
good luck with it.
LOL... Then you really wont like what I am doing with my PCs lol...... I am going to machine a slot along all three front holes making a mouth so to speak.
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
(11-26-2015, 12:29 PM)OM616 LOL... Then you really wont like what I am doing with my PCs lol...... I am going to machine a slot along all three front holes making a mouth so to speak.
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
We like to fuck shit up! So to speak haha
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-26-2015, 01:33 PM #330(11-26-2015, 12:29 PM)OM616 LOL... Then you really wont like what I am doing with my PCs lol...... I am going to machine a slot along all three front holes making a mouth so to speak.
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
We like to fuck shit up! So to speak haha
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
LOL... Then you really wont like what I am doing with my PCs lol...... I am going to machine a slot along all three front holes making a mouth so to speak.
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
[/quote]
hehe hhehe ,
i didn´t say that u´re walking the wrong road!!!! i was trying to say that u´re technic with the precups are far diff from what i experienced and what the fins/swedish/ germans and me portuguese do... i can explain the main idea behind my line of thought....i tryed big holes , gained nothing remarkable (150cc pump) the remarkable gains were when i moved from stock 8x2.25 to 8x2.50.
i friend of mine has a W460 with the 617A i made a 120cc pump for him and we didn´t change the precups and the thing F$%#" rocks.
before i was fond of big holes thats why i tryied 3mm ones , and the only gain was noise , and ratle in idle, so i wonder .... the 8x the área of the 8 holes is far more than the neck área wich is 7mm. its not even necessary to use maths to see that.
if we take a look at the law´s ruling the flow in a section we can determine that being the exit área bigger than the section behind the velocity of the gas does not increase but it does decelerate wich causes increase in pressure , giving a false idea of improved performance.
it is my understanding that best way to go would be cutting the neck from 7mm to say 9mm and leave some of the holes alone , and increase the others but keeping the exit área 20 to 30% below the neck área , the idea is to gain velocity in the gas leaving the precup.
as your thought is also correct if u could cut a two smiles in the cup, keeping that área below the neck área i belive u will hit the gold.....
for mr Captain , maybe the crack´s develop under the stress caused by the increased noise and increased combustion pressure.... directly related to the holes being to large,
i beleve we have na agreement that opening the precups results in increased noise and ratle... if not my apologize.
<regards to america, the north stip
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
[/quote]
LOL... Then you really wont like what I am doing with my PCs lol...... I am going to machine a slot along all three front holes making a mouth so to speak.
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
[/quote]
hehe hhehe , i didn´t say that u´re walking the wrong road!!!! i was trying to say that u´re technic with the precups are far diff from what i experienced and what the fins/swedish/ germans and me portuguese do... i can explain the main idea behind my line of thought....
i tryed big holes , gained nothing remarkable (150cc pump) the remarkable gains were when i moved from stock 8x2.25 to 8x2.50.
i friend of mine has a W460 with the 617A i made a 120cc pump for him and we didn´t change the precups and the thing F$%#" rocks.
before i was fond of big holes thats why i tryied 3mm ones , and the only gain was noise , and ratle in idle, so i wonder .... the 8x the área of the 8 holes is far more than the neck área wich is 7mm. its not even necessary to use maths to see that.
if we take a look at the law´s ruling the flow in a section we can determine that being the exit área bigger than the section behind the velocity of the gas does not increase but it does decelerate wich causes increase in pressure , giving a false idea of improved performance.
it is my understanding that best way to go would be cutting the neck from 7mm to say 9mm and leave some of the holes alone , and increase the others but keeping the exit área 20 to 30% below the neck área , the idea is to gain velocity in the gas leaving the precup.
as your thought is also correct if u could cut a two smiles in the cup, keeping that área below the neck área i belive u will hit the gold.....
for mr Captain , maybe the crack´s develop under the stress caused by the increased noise and increased combustion pressure.... directly related to the holes being to large,
i beleve we have na agreement that opening the precups results in increased noise and ratle... if not my apologize.
<regards to america, the north stip
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
[/quote]
hehe hhehe ,
i didn´t say that u´re walking the wrong road!!!! i was trying to say that u´re technic with the precups are far diff from what i experienced and what the fins/swedish/ germans and me portuguese do... i can explain the main idea behind my line of thought....i tryed big holes , gained nothing remarkable (150cc pump) the remarkable gains were when i moved from stock 8x2.25 to 8x2.50.
i friend of mine has a W460 with the 617A i made a 120cc pump for him and we didn´t change the precups and the thing F$%#" rocks.
before i was fond of big holes thats why i tryied 3mm ones , and the only gain was noise , and ratle in idle, so i wonder .... the 8x the área of the 8 holes is far more than the neck área wich is 7mm. its not even necessary to use maths to see that.
if we take a look at the law´s ruling the flow in a section we can determine that being the exit área bigger than the section behind the velocity of the gas does not increase but it does decelerate wich causes increase in pressure , giving a false idea of improved performance.
it is my understanding that best way to go would be cutting the neck from 7mm to say 9mm and leave some of the holes alone , and increase the others but keeping the exit área 20 to 30% below the neck área , the idea is to gain velocity in the gas leaving the precup.
as your thought is also correct if u could cut a two smiles in the cup, keeping that área below the neck área i belive u will hit the gold.....
for mr Captain , maybe the crack´s develop under the stress caused by the increased noise and increased combustion pressure.... directly related to the holes being to large,
i beleve we have na agreement that opening the precups results in increased noise and ratle... if not my apologize.
<regards to america, the north stip
[/quote]
Mine actually quieted down with the larger USA size holes and that is with a lot more advance than I could run with stock PCs...
We know the math, been argued in this thread years ago. It sounds like you have found a good combination for your engine and tuning and fuel quality.
This seems to be like a topic as explosive as politics and religion lol... My days are arguing about it are long over.... USA can do it our way and Europe can do it theirs, that way we can all be right !! We can add the PC hole size to the many differences there are between American and European philosophy lol...
LOL... Then you really wont like what I am doing with my PCs lol...... I am going to machine a slot along all three front holes making a mouth so to speak.
I did not know we her in the USA had to be consistent "with what people is doing in here (europe)"
All in good fun, but races are not won by staying consistent with the competition lol..
[/quote]
hehe hhehe , i didn´t say that u´re walking the wrong road!!!! i was trying to say that u´re technic with the precups are far diff from what i experienced and what the fins/swedish/ germans and me portuguese do... i can explain the main idea behind my line of thought....
i tryed big holes , gained nothing remarkable (150cc pump) the remarkable gains were when i moved from stock 8x2.25 to 8x2.50.
i friend of mine has a W460 with the 617A i made a 120cc pump for him and we didn´t change the precups and the thing F$%#" rocks.
before i was fond of big holes thats why i tryied 3mm ones , and the only gain was noise , and ratle in idle, so i wonder .... the 8x the área of the 8 holes is far more than the neck área wich is 7mm. its not even necessary to use maths to see that.
if we take a look at the law´s ruling the flow in a section we can determine that being the exit área bigger than the section behind the velocity of the gas does not increase but it does decelerate wich causes increase in pressure , giving a false idea of improved performance.
it is my understanding that best way to go would be cutting the neck from 7mm to say 9mm and leave some of the holes alone , and increase the others but keeping the exit área 20 to 30% below the neck área , the idea is to gain velocity in the gas leaving the precup.
as your thought is also correct if u could cut a two smiles in the cup, keeping that área below the neck área i belive u will hit the gold.....
for mr Captain , maybe the crack´s develop under the stress caused by the increased noise and increased combustion pressure.... directly related to the holes being to large,
i beleve we have na agreement that opening the precups results in increased noise and ratle... if not my apologize.
<regards to america, the north stip
[/quote]
Mine actually quieted down with the larger USA size holes and that is with a lot more advance than I could run with stock PCs...
We know the math, been argued in this thread years ago. It sounds like you have found a good combination for your engine and tuning and fuel quality.
This seems to be like a topic as explosive as politics and religion lol... My days are arguing about it are long over.... USA can do it our way and Europe can do it theirs, that way we can all be right !! We can add the PC hole size to the many differences there are between American and European philosophy lol...
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-26-2015, 04:59 PM #333It all makes sense to me and I see what you are saying Barrote. The neck in my chambers were opened up also if I remember right. I did not notice Morse Diesel noise but also advanced the timing to around 30-31 degress which made the engine almost have a powerband. Pretty cool. Arguing is definitely a time waster but it is good to share opinion and what you have tried! When I get my engine rebuilt and these chambers back in that will be the real test!
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
my set up works great , thats what i have found but they do for street racer/roadracer not for drag machines as many members like...
maybe for a diff set up a diff aproach works better , who know´s as long as u´re happy with it ... i´ll be too.
are u guy´s still with the MW´s ?
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
yep , arguments , leave nowhere ....
my set up works great , thats what i have found but they do for street racer/roadracer not for drag machines as many members like...
maybe for a diff set up a diff aproach works better , who know´s as long as u´re happy with it ... i´ll be too.
are u guy´s still with the MW´s ?
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(11-26-2015, 05:17 PM)barrote yep , arguments , leave nowhere ....
my set up works great , thats what i have found but they do for street racer/roadracer not for drag machines as many members like...
maybe for a diff set up a diff aproach works better , who know´s as long as u´re happy with it ... i´ll be too.
are u guy´s still with the MW´s ?
Sadly, yes. I think maybe MTUpower is running a M-pump.
M-pumps are fairly rare in the states for a 5cylinder .
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(11-26-2015, 05:17 PM)barrote yep , arguments , leave nowhere ....
my set up works great , thats what i have found but they do for street racer/roadracer not for drag machines as many members like...
maybe for a diff set up a diff aproach works better , who know´s as long as u´re happy with it ... i´ll be too.
are u guy´s still with the MW´s ?
Sadly, yes. I think maybe MTUpower is running a M-pump.
M-pumps are fairly rare in the states for a 5cylinder .
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
i´m working in a conversion to have the M for 60X engines fit the 617 , is almost done , when its done the 8mm version is good for 200cc to 250cc not bad at all. 7.5 mm for 150 to 180 , sounds good right !!!
i let u guys know of that , and sorry to be of topic here....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
They´re rare everywhere, just a few engines come with it , and this engines were N/A, trashed a long time ago. and it was only from 1976 to 1978 so 2 years gap in the production.
i´m working in a conversion to have the M for 60X engines fit the 617 , is almost done , when its done the 8mm version is good for 200cc to 250cc not bad at all. 7.5 mm for 150 to 180 , sounds good right !!!
i let u guys know of that , and sorry to be of topic here....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-27-2015, 01:33 PM #337Sounds great!
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
This is the way I see it. Heat of combustion goes 3 ways. Out the exhaust, into mechanical energy to move the piston and into the cooling system. Advancing the timing or increasing the speed of the combustion event results in lower EGT's, which means the heat is going in 1 or both of the other directions. Since everyone who opens up the PC's say there's a power/torque benefit, it obviously raises BSFC, which means some of the heat removed from the exhaust is going to pushing the piston down. It would be dumb to think none of that heat goes into the cooling system too. That's all I'm saying. It may not be the main reason the cooling system boiled, but it didn't help.
raysorenson
11-27-2015, 11:21 PM #338It's most likely the head cracked when the cooling system boiled.
This is the way I see it. Heat of combustion goes 3 ways. Out the exhaust, into mechanical energy to move the piston and into the cooling system. Advancing the timing or increasing the speed of the combustion event results in lower EGT's, which means the heat is going in 1 or both of the other directions. Since everyone who opens up the PC's say there's a power/torque benefit, it obviously raises BSFC, which means some of the heat removed from the exhaust is going to pushing the piston down. It would be dumb to think none of that heat goes into the cooling system too. That's all I'm saying. It may not be the main reason the cooling system boiled, but it didn't help.
(11-27-2015, 11:21 PM)raysorenson It's most likely the head cracked when the cooling system boiled.
This is the way I see it. Heat of combustion goes 3 ways. Out the exhaust, into mechanical energy to move the piston and into the cooling system. Advancing the timing or increasing the speed of the combustion event results in lower EGT's, which means the heat is going in 1 or both of the other directions. Since everyone who opens up the PC's say there's a power/torque benefit, it obviously raises BSFC, which means some of the heat removed from the exhaust is going to pushing the piston down. It would be dumb to think none of that heat goes into the cooling system too. That's all I'm saying. It may not be the main reason the cooling system boiled, but it didn't help.
Along the same school of thought, given any thought to polishing those sharp edges near where the PC sit down to a smooth transition? I've already done so on my head but haven't finished the rest of my rebuild yet so no news on it. Just thinking that those sharp corners are going to sponge up heat like nobodys business, mighty near to the cracks, which isnt the meatiest spot to begin with. I don't know but it may have more to do with just the abuse and extra fuel than the prechambers themselves, in fact it stands to reason that if the holes were smaller, and the gasses had a higher exit velocity then the edoes would generate even more drag and absorb more heat. Very well might be reaching on this but who knows, maybe the hogged out PCs even helped here lol
PanicButton
12-03-2015, 07:36 PM #339(11-27-2015, 11:21 PM)raysorenson It's most likely the head cracked when the cooling system boiled.
This is the way I see it. Heat of combustion goes 3 ways. Out the exhaust, into mechanical energy to move the piston and into the cooling system. Advancing the timing or increasing the speed of the combustion event results in lower EGT's, which means the heat is going in 1 or both of the other directions. Since everyone who opens up the PC's say there's a power/torque benefit, it obviously raises BSFC, which means some of the heat removed from the exhaust is going to pushing the piston down. It would be dumb to think none of that heat goes into the cooling system too. That's all I'm saying. It may not be the main reason the cooling system boiled, but it didn't help.
Along the same school of thought, given any thought to polishing those sharp edges near where the PC sit down to a smooth transition? I've already done so on my head but haven't finished the rest of my rebuild yet so no news on it. Just thinking that those sharp corners are going to sponge up heat like nobodys business, mighty near to the cracks, which isnt the meatiest spot to begin with. I don't know but it may have more to do with just the abuse and extra fuel than the prechambers themselves, in fact it stands to reason that if the holes were smaller, and the gasses had a higher exit velocity then the edoes would generate even more drag and absorb more heat. Very well might be reaching on this but who knows, maybe the hogged out PCs even helped here lol
Gotta pay to play, whatever killed it killed it. Higher boost levels, more fuel, etc. is definitely not easy on any engine.
You think about adding an extra coolant loop or two using the freeze plugs in the head?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
12-03-2015, 08:04 PM #340When I see those hogged out PCs I hear the war rig horn in my head!
Gotta pay to play, whatever killed it killed it. Higher boost levels, more fuel, etc. is definitely not easy on any engine.
You think about adding an extra coolant loop or two using the freeze plugs in the head?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(12-03-2015, 08:04 PM)Simpler=Better When I see those hogged out PCs I hear the war rig horn in my head!
Gotta pay to play, whatever killed it killed it. Higher boost levels, more fuel, etc. is definitely not easy on any engine.
You think about adding an extra coolant loop or two using the freeze plugs in the head?
I'm definitely willing to pay to play, its all worth it to me.
--- I am certain that with a legitimate fan setup the cooling system wont be an issue. Remember guys I had no fan except the factory A/C aux fan blowing through the radiator! ---
I would like to spin the water pump faster! I remember talk of a smaller water pump pulley. I think 500 rpm would do it. I always let mine idle to cool exhaust temps to 400f or below before I shut it down and noticed that the coolant temp would come down a lot faster if the engine was at 1500 rpm vs 900-1000
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
12-08-2015, 04:17 PM #341(12-03-2015, 08:04 PM)Simpler=Better When I see those hogged out PCs I hear the war rig horn in my head!
Gotta pay to play, whatever killed it killed it. Higher boost levels, more fuel, etc. is definitely not easy on any engine.
You think about adding an extra coolant loop or two using the freeze plugs in the head?
I'm definitely willing to pay to play, its all worth it to me.
--- I am certain that with a legitimate fan setup the cooling system wont be an issue. Remember guys I had no fan except the factory A/C aux fan blowing through the radiator! ---
I would like to spin the water pump faster! I remember talk of a smaller water pump pulley. I think 500 rpm would do it. I always let mine idle to cool exhaust temps to 400f or below before I shut it down and noticed that the coolant temp would come down a lot faster if the engine was at 1500 rpm vs 900-1000
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Put the car on the dyno after reamng out to .125" on all the holes except for the drain and the large hole. Results were 13 more ft/lbs torque, 3 more HP. I recommend doing this. Quick, easy and cheap way to get more go.
I forgot to mention the EGTs Also dropped about 150 degrees Fahrenheit. That mean time for more fuel!
I was thinking the other day and was wondering about installing later oblique injector 602/603 prechambers int a 617 head. Since those 1990s 616 PCs are so rare.
603.96 PC firing ducts are 1mm smaller OD than 617.95 ones, so either have to start with a "NA" head or have to install a sleeve around them (thermal conductivity issues?).
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Interesting! Same dyno I presume, 3hp isn't really much difference but...
I was thinking the other day and was wondering about installing later oblique injector 602/603 prechambers int a 617 head. Since those 1990s 616 PCs are so rare.
603.96 PC firing ducts are 1mm smaller OD than 617.95 ones, so either have to start with a "NA" head or have to install a sleeve around them (thermal conductivity issues?).
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
![[Image: vorkammern-2.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/vorkammern-2.jpg)
^617 n/a head & 603 n/a prechamber. You can also see, it sticks way out...
![[Image: vorkammern-1.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/vorkammern-1.jpg)
^L2R: OM603 n/a - /8 - MB100 angled inj. - W123 straight inj.
^You can see that the MB100 prechamber has the glowplug hole/locking tab in the right orientation. If this is of big interest, I can try to get the dimensions of the MB100 prechamber and a part number (not in my possesion but I know the guy who owns a set of 5). Don't know if the 617 Turbo also got a bigger dia neck prechamber like the 603 did?
DiseaselWeasel
05-15-2016, 01:47 AM #346The orientation of the glowplug is also wrong... You'd need to find another way of preventing it from spining.
^617 n/a head & 603 n/a prechamber. You can also see, it sticks way out...
^L2R: OM603 n/a - /8 - MB100 angled inj. - W123 straight inj.
^You can see that the MB100 prechamber has the glowplug hole/locking tab in the right orientation. If this is of big interest, I can try to get the dimensions of the MB100 prechamber and a part number (not in my possesion but I know the guy who owns a set of 5). Don't know if the 617 Turbo also got a bigger dia neck prechamber like the 603 did?
(12-08-2015, 04:17 PM)Captain America I would like to spin the water pump faster! I remember talk of a smaller water pump pulley. I think 500 rpm would do it. I always let mine idle to cool exhaust temps to 400f or below before I shut it down and noticed that the coolant temp would come down a lot faster if the engine was at 1500 rpm vs 900-1000
I like your idea.
With the GT2256v setup, I have more air than I need so EGTs stay below 1100F even at wot for as long as I want. But, engine temps still come up, as if the coolant flow in the head is not enough.
I also noticed that the stock water pump does not push enough coolant at idle. I agree that another 500 rpm at idle would be perfect. Please post if you find a solution.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
05-15-2016, 06:50 AM #347(12-08-2015, 04:17 PM)Captain America I would like to spin the water pump faster! I remember talk of a smaller water pump pulley. I think 500 rpm would do it. I always let mine idle to cool exhaust temps to 400f or below before I shut it down and noticed that the coolant temp would come down a lot faster if the engine was at 1500 rpm vs 900-1000
I like your idea.
With the GT2256v setup, I have more air than I need so EGTs stay below 1100F even at wot for as long as I want. But, engine temps still come up, as if the coolant flow in the head is not enough.
I also noticed that the stock water pump does not push enough coolant at idle. I agree that another 500 rpm at idle would be perfect. Please post if you find a solution.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
(05-15-2016, 01:47 AM)DiseaselWeasel The orientation of the glowplug is also wrong... You'd need to find another way of preventing it from spining.
^You can see that the MB100 prechamber has the glowplug hole/locking tab in the right orientation. If this is of big interest, I can try to get the dimensions of the MB100 prechamber and a part number (not in my possesion but I know the guy who owns a set of 5). Don't know if the 617 Turbo also got a bigger dia neck prechamber like the 603 did?
Wow! Hope you didn't slice that head just for me...
Fascinating really. Wonder if it's possible to plug the GP hole and bore a new one in the right place. Would the GP could stop it spinning, or maybe a special tool used in the GP hole when installing the lock rings in.
My hand is up for more info on those PCs
. And yes, 14mm NA and 16mm turbo firing duct OD for 617s but 603 turbo was 15mm for some reason (smaller cylinder volume perhaps)Anyone have a 606 PC? Wonder what the changes were in design from the 603s. Not that they'd be usable in a 617 of course.
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
(05-15-2016, 01:47 AM)DiseaselWeasel The orientation of the glowplug is also wrong... You'd need to find another way of preventing it from spining.
^You can see that the MB100 prechamber has the glowplug hole/locking tab in the right orientation. If this is of big interest, I can try to get the dimensions of the MB100 prechamber and a part number (not in my possesion but I know the guy who owns a set of 5). Don't know if the 617 Turbo also got a bigger dia neck prechamber like the 603 did?
Wow! Hope you didn't slice that head just for me...
Fascinating really. Wonder if it's possible to plug the GP hole and bore a new one in the right place. Would the GP could stop it spinning, or maybe a special tool used in the GP hole when installing the lock rings in.
My hand is up for more info on those PCs
. And yes, 14mm NA and 16mm turbo firing duct OD for 617s but 603 turbo was 15mm for some reason (smaller cylinder volume perhaps)Anyone have a 606 PC? Wonder what the changes were in design from the 603s. Not that they'd be usable in a 617 of course.
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
If the 617 turbo has 16mm dia, the MB100 prechambers are out. They have the same dimensions as the 617 n/a prechambers. Bonkers thought: those PCs are made from 2 pices anyway... I'm just nor sure how they are joined together. If you get my idea...
DiseaselWeasel
05-16-2016, 04:03 AM #349No, that's a demonstration model. If the 617 turbo has 16mm dia, the MB100 prechambers are out. They have the same dimensions as the 617 n/a prechambers. Bonkers thought: those PCs are made from 2 pices anyway... I'm just nor sure how they are joined together. If you get my idea...
they drop in the midle of head slightly ofset to exaust side , 8 X 2.25mm holes around the tipe evenly spaced and 10º ofset of each other in a 25º and 35º plane from horizontal.
neck diameter of 7mm, pre cup inside volume unknown to me, injector is bolted about 15 º from the vertical , the chamber "ball" is in the center so the injector stream should hit the ball aside. or in some cases most of the stream fails completely to hit the ball.
later on i´ll post a picture
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
605/6 precups are off total diff sizes and shapes , but still the same concept .
they drop in the midle of head slightly ofset to exaust side , 8 X 2.25mm holes around the tipe evenly spaced and 10º ofset of each other in a 25º and 35º plane from horizontal.
neck diameter of 7mm, pre cup inside volume unknown to me, injector is bolted about 15 º from the vertical , the chamber "ball" is in the center so the injector stream should hit the ball aside. or in some cases most of the stream fails completely to hit the ball.
later on i´ll post a picture
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
11 Guest(s)
11 Guest(s)