Hx35
Hx35
Whitetrash123
Unregistered
02-08-2014, 10:40 AM
#1
02-08-2014, 09:16 PM
#2
You really need a modded pump with bigger elements to make use of the chargers flow capacity. A fellow on here ran a hy35 on a 617 and said it was pretty decent, but pretty big difference between that and an hx
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
What size exhaust housing? I'd roll with a hy35 before an hx because the by is slight smaller compressor and turbine, with a 9cm housing vs the hx35 14cm or at the smallest 12cm housing
You really need a modded pump with bigger elements to make use of the chargers flow capacity. A fellow on here ran a hy35 on a 617 and said it was pretty decent, but pretty big difference between that and an hx
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
02-09-2014, 09:58 AM
#3
yankneck696
02-09-2014, 09:58 AM #3As a 24V Cummins owner with an HY35, I can tell you right now that you are barely going to light that turbo even with a tweaked pump. A Dieselmechen pump with an HY35 will give you much better responde & the HY35 will support as mych HP as your engine can handle before grenading. HX will just be too laggy & no do well for you. I'm at about 320HP in my Cummins & with the Quadzilla turned all the way up, I can black out the road. I run it at about the 320 power level on #7 out of 10.
02-09-2014, 11:39 AM
#4
(02-09-2014, 09:58 AM)yankneck696 I can black out the road.
This tells me you don't have enough air flow.
OP:
HX35 is too much for the 617 unless you have a modded IP. Even then I think it might be a little bit too much. Winmutt has an HX30 on his 603 with a dieselmeken pump that should be pushing enough fuel for 300-350HP if I remember right.
'98 E300 Turbo "Juliette" - Brabus wheels and almost all the options a w210 could have
'87 300D Turbo "Roxanne" - #22 head - 400E brakes - EGR Delete - 17" Staggered AMG 5 spoke rims from CLK500 - 5 Spd manual
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
(02-09-2014, 09:58 AM)yankneck696 I can black out the road.
This tells me you don't have enough air flow.
OP:
HX35 is too much for the 617 unless you have a modded IP. Even then I think it might be a little bit too much. Winmutt has an HX30 on his 603 with a dieselmeken pump that should be pushing enough fuel for 300-350HP if I remember right.
'98 E300 Turbo "Juliette" - Brabus wheels and almost all the options a w210 could have
'87 300D Turbo "Roxanne" - #22 head - 400E brakes - EGR Delete - 17" Staggered AMG 5 spoke rims from CLK500 - 5 Spd manual
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
02-09-2014, 12:00 PM
#5
The biggest downfall is finding one, they are kinda hard to find unless you have the cash flow to just outright buy one brand new
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I have an hx30 on my om617, I like it. Spools slightly slower than stock, but not Hardly enough to even notice it. I have my pump turned up, and I'm not even close to maxing out my turbo, I'm only utilizing about half of what it is capable of because that's all I really have the fuel for.
The biggest downfall is finding one, they are kinda hard to find unless you have the cash flow to just outright buy one brand new
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
02-09-2014, 07:37 PM
#7
(02-09-2014, 01:48 PM)raysorenson The cheap cHX30's seem plentiful on Ebay.
They scare me haha. Their has to be a reason why they are so cheap, my holset dealer gives me his price, so I don't see how they can produce one that cheap without skimping on materials, compressor design, turbine material, etc..
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(02-09-2014, 01:48 PM)raysorenson The cheap cHX30's seem plentiful on Ebay.
They scare me haha. Their has to be a reason why they are so cheap, my holset dealer gives me his price, so I don't see how they can produce one that cheap without skimping on materials, compressor design, turbine material, etc..
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
02-10-2014, 06:13 AM
#8
buddy of my said the turbos aren't really that bad.I prefer an original holset. If you do some decent searching you'll find a (new or refurbished) holset turbo's for not much more than a knockoff. I found a new hx35w for 350 euro. That's about the same as a knockoff delivered and everything.
In China everything is cheaper buddy of my said the turbos aren't really that bad.
I prefer an original holset. If you do some decent searching you'll find a (new or refurbished) holset turbo's for not much more than a knockoff. I found a new hx35w for 350 euro. That's about the same as a knockoff delivered and everything.
02-10-2014, 09:46 AM
#9
(02-08-2014, 09:16 PM)MFSuper90 What size exhaust housing? I'd roll with a hy35 before an hx because the by is slight smaller compressor and turbine, with a 9cm housing vs the hx35 14cm or at the smallest 12cm housing
The HX35W is also available with a 10cm turbine housing
![[Image: HX35W10cm_zps5725d893.png]](http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/HX35W10cm_zps5725d893.png)
02-10-2014, 10:00 AM
#10
(02-10-2014, 09:46 AM)Alcaid(02-08-2014, 09:16 PM)MFSuper90 What size exhaust housing? I'd roll with a hy35 before an hx because the by is slight smaller compressor and turbine, with a 9cm housing vs the hx35 14cm or at the smallest 12cm housing
The HX35W is also available with a 10cm turbine housing
Very cool, I learn something new everyday
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(02-10-2014, 09:46 AM)Alcaid(02-08-2014, 09:16 PM)MFSuper90 What size exhaust housing? I'd roll with a hy35 before an hx because the by is slight smaller compressor and turbine, with a 9cm housing vs the hx35 14cm or at the smallest 12cm housing
The HX35W is also available with a 10cm turbine housing
Very cool, I learn something new everyday
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
02-11-2014, 10:32 AM
#12
I know this has little in common with Mercs, but just to give examples.
Ed
yankneck696
02-11-2014, 10:32 AM #12Those 10CM housings are uber rare, by my knowledge. And they are only 1CM larger than factory. For a lightly modded Cummins, it is still too small. I just have a Quadzilla tuner & the HY cannot keep up with it. It's only on level 7. On 10, bye bye rear view.
I know this has little in common with Mercs, but just to give examples.
Ed
02-11-2014, 10:41 AM
#13
(02-11-2014, 10:32 AM)yankneck696 Those 10CM housings are uber rare, by my knowledge. And they are only 1CM larger than factory. For a lightly modded Cummins, it is still too small. I just have a Quadzilla tuner & the HY cannot keep up with it. It's only on level 7. On 10, bye bye rear view.
I know this has little in common with Mercs, but just to give examples.
Ed
That's a 10cm HX35W housing for the 70/60mm wheel, flows more
(02-11-2014, 10:32 AM)yankneck696 Those 10CM housings are uber rare, by my knowledge. And they are only 1CM larger than factory. For a lightly modded Cummins, it is still too small. I just have a Quadzilla tuner & the HY cannot keep up with it. It's only on level 7. On 10, bye bye rear view.
I know this has little in common with Mercs, but just to give examples.
Ed
That's a 10cm HX35W housing for the 70/60mm wheel, flows more
02-12-2014, 07:06 AM
#14
Ed
yankneck696
02-12-2014, 07:06 AM #14Oh, I was still on the HY thing. I am doing an HE351VE on the Cummins shortly. Trying to learn CANbus codes to run it electronicly & interfaced with the truck & tuner. We'll see how it goes.
Ed
11-19-2015, 01:19 PM
#15
(02-10-2014, 09:46 AM)Alcaid(02-08-2014, 09:16 PM)MFSuper90 What size exhaust housing? I'd roll with a hy35 before an hx because the by is slight smaller compressor and turbine, with a 9cm housing vs the hx35 14cm or at the smallest 12cm housing
The HX35W is also available with a 10cm turbine housing
Looking to replace the k14 on a 606. I am thinking hx35w, but don't know what size turbine housing to pick. It has 6mm elements currently. Not sure on the cc/min. Maybe 200hp. Thanks.
atypicalguy
11-19-2015, 01:19 PM #15(02-10-2014, 09:46 AM)Alcaid(02-08-2014, 09:16 PM)MFSuper90 What size exhaust housing? I'd roll with a hy35 before an hx because the by is slight smaller compressor and turbine, with a 9cm housing vs the hx35 14cm or at the smallest 12cm housing
The HX35W is also available with a 10cm turbine housing
Looking to replace the k14 on a 606. I am thinking hx35w, but don't know what size turbine housing to pick. It has 6mm elements currently. Not sure on the cc/min. Maybe 200hp. Thanks.
11-20-2015, 02:50 AM
#16
I have been looking at turbine choke flow mapping and compressor maps for you. A turbo with the appropriate sized turbine and compressor would be a MHI TD05H-16G(small) with a 10cm turbine housing. Faster spool than a HY35W-9cm but still give you enough air for 200whp with good margin. They even have a 360° thrust bearing stock like the Holsets so they are strong turbos. I can source one of these for 600USD shipped, genuine MHI and unused. A HX35W-10cm would be 650USD shipped.
If you are only going for 200whp on an OM606 what you're really looking for is a low-pressure turbo, not a high-pressure turbo like the Holsets. You don't need much boost to get to that number so you need a turbo with the highest efficiency at the required boost levels.
I have been looking at turbine choke flow mapping and compressor maps for you. A turbo with the appropriate sized turbine and compressor would be a MHI TD05H-16G(small) with a 10cm turbine housing. Faster spool than a HY35W-9cm but still give you enough air for 200whp with good margin. They even have a 360° thrust bearing stock like the Holsets so they are strong turbos. I can source one of these for 600USD shipped, genuine MHI and unused. A HX35W-10cm would be 650USD shipped.
11-20-2015, 02:49 PM
#17
The nice thing about low PR turbo for the primary is that it works well for compounding also if I change the pump later. I had planned to do this with my 617a but in the end cannot justify it, so I switched cars.
Thanks
atypicalguy
11-20-2015, 02:49 PM #17Ok good thoughts thanks. I wonder how that MHI turbo compares to the stock k14 from a 1999 300td us spec om606.962? I guess I need to gets maps for both compressors and see if I can find an exhaust housing spec for the k14.
The nice thing about low PR turbo for the primary is that it works well for compounding also if I change the pump later. I had planned to do this with my 617a but in the end cannot justify it, so I switched cars.
Thanks
11-25-2015, 03:16 AM
#18
(11-20-2015, 02:50 AM)Alcaid If you are only going for 200whp on an OM606 what you're really looking for is a low-pressure turbo, not a high-pressure turbo like the Holsets. You don't need much boost to get to that number so you need a turbo with the highest efficiency at the required boost levels.
I have been looking at turbine choke flow mapping and compressor maps for you. A turbo with the appropriate sized turbine and compressor would be a MHI TD05H-16G(small) with a 10cm turbine housing. Faster spool than a HY35W-9cm but still give you enough air for 200whp with good margin. They even have a 360° thrust bearing stock like the Holsets so they are strong turbos. I can source one of these for 600USD shipped, genuine MHI and unused. A HX35W-10cm would be 650USD shipped.
Ok so the small wheel version. I found a map. Unfortunately I have no map for the 7026 k14 which is the stock turbo currently on the motor. So I cannot compare. I wnder how the tdo5h 16g small compares to the s200 mentioned above?
atypicalguy
11-25-2015, 03:16 AM #18(11-20-2015, 02:50 AM)Alcaid If you are only going for 200whp on an OM606 what you're really looking for is a low-pressure turbo, not a high-pressure turbo like the Holsets. You don't need much boost to get to that number so you need a turbo with the highest efficiency at the required boost levels.
I have been looking at turbine choke flow mapping and compressor maps for you. A turbo with the appropriate sized turbine and compressor would be a MHI TD05H-16G(small) with a 10cm turbine housing. Faster spool than a HY35W-9cm but still give you enough air for 200whp with good margin. They even have a 360° thrust bearing stock like the Holsets so they are strong turbos. I can source one of these for 600USD shipped, genuine MHI and unused. A HX35W-10cm would be 650USD shipped.
Ok so the small wheel version. I found a map. Unfortunately I have no map for the 7026 k14 which is the stock turbo currently on the motor. So I cannot compare. I wnder how the tdo5h 16g small compares to the s200 mentioned above?
11-25-2015, 03:56 AM
#19
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiency
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
11-25-2015, 04:06 PM
#20
discovery 2 fitted om605 m pump 7.5 elements 300 turbo at mo
c250 std at mo
off road buggy fitting om 606 turbo ? supercharger ? to follow
www.gaz-fab.co.uk www.facebook.com/gazfab
gary andrews
11-25-2015, 04:06 PM #20hi Alcaid with all that knowledge could you tell me which turbo would be best for my set up have 605 with 7.5 elements 140cc and would like to get a very quick spool turbo as near to standard spool, and get me too about 250-300hp at crank sorry for hijack
discovery 2 fitted om605 m pump 7.5 elements 300 turbo at mo
c250 std at mo
off road buggy fitting om 606 turbo ? supercharger ? to follow
www.gaz-fab.co.uk www.facebook.com/gazfab
11-28-2015, 03:47 PM
#21
(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
atypicalguy
11-28-2015, 03:47 PM #21(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
11-28-2015, 04:14 PM
#22
(11-25-2015, 04:06 PM)gary andrews hi Alcaid with all that knowledge could you tell me which turbo would be best for my set up have 605 with 7.5 elements 140cc and would like to get a very quick spool turbo as near to standard spool, and get me too about 250-300hp at crank sorry for hijack
140cc/1000 bangs/injector. Let's say you want max power at 4k rpm. That is 2000 injections per minute per injector.
So 0.14cc per bang
0.14cc x 0.85 g/cc is 0.119g fuel per bang
0.119 x 18 AFR is 2.142g air
2.142g / 0.001225g/cc is 1748.57cc of air at 15 deg C and sea level per bang.
Cylinder volume is 2500/5 or 500cc
1749/500 is 3.5 roughly
That is your target density ratio relative to atmosphere.
Your motor displaces 2.5L x 2000 or 5000L/min at 4000 rpm. Divide by 1000L/m3 is 5m3 per minute.
Then you correct the PR for compressor efficiency (70%), pressure drop across intercooler, ambient atmospheric pressure, thermal efficiency of the intercooler (~80%?), and the volumetric efficiency of your motor (maybe 95% for the four valve head), replot the numbers for each rpm of interest and plot that curve on some known compressor maps, and find one where the curve spends a lot of time in the highest efficiency part of the map.
Then you ask alcaid what turbine size you need at that mass flow to prevent it choking.
Then you order the turbo from Alcaid.
Caveat: everything in this post may be wrong. Do your own math and cross check. I was just feeling a bit bored.
This post was last modified: 11-29-2015, 08:57 PM by atypicalguy.
atypicalguy
11-28-2015, 04:14 PM #22(11-25-2015, 04:06 PM)gary andrews hi Alcaid with all that knowledge could you tell me which turbo would be best for my set up have 605 with 7.5 elements 140cc and would like to get a very quick spool turbo as near to standard spool, and get me too about 250-300hp at crank sorry for hijack
140cc/1000 bangs/injector. Let's say you want max power at 4k rpm. That is 2000 injections per minute per injector.
So 0.14cc per bang
0.14cc x 0.85 g/cc is 0.119g fuel per bang
0.119 x 18 AFR is 2.142g air
2.142g / 0.001225g/cc is 1748.57cc of air at 15 deg C and sea level per bang.
Cylinder volume is 2500/5 or 500cc
1749/500 is 3.5 roughly
That is your target density ratio relative to atmosphere.
Your motor displaces 2.5L x 2000 or 5000L/min at 4000 rpm. Divide by 1000L/m3 is 5m3 per minute.
Then you correct the PR for compressor efficiency (70%), pressure drop across intercooler, ambient atmospheric pressure, thermal efficiency of the intercooler (~80%?), and the volumetric efficiency of your motor (maybe 95% for the four valve head), replot the numbers for each rpm of interest and plot that curve on some known compressor maps, and find one where the curve spends a lot of time in the highest efficiency part of the map.
Then you ask alcaid what turbine size you need at that mass flow to prevent it choking.
Then you order the turbo from Alcaid.
Caveat: everything in this post may be wrong. Do your own math and cross check. I was just feeling a bit bored.
11-29-2015, 12:11 PM
#23
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
atypicalguy
11-29-2015, 12:11 PM #230.14 cc/bang x 5 cyl x 2000 bangs/min x 60 min/hr is 84,000 cc/hr
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
11-30-2015, 02:08 AM
#24
(11-28-2015, 03:47 PM)atypicalguy(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
Yep, it is T3 and has an internal wastegate
(11-28-2015, 03:47 PM)atypicalguy(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
Yep, it is T3 and has an internal wastegate
11-30-2015, 02:37 AM
#25
(11-29-2015, 12:11 PM)atypicalguy 0.14 cc/bang x 5 cyl x 2000 bangs/min x 60 min/hr is 84,000 cc/hr
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
Your BSFC number is wrong. At 4000rpm it is over 300 for OM617 and getting worse the higher the RPM. At 4500rpm it is 330. Peak HP on a tuned OM60* is reached high in the RPM range and BSFC is typically worse on a tuned engine as there is more losses driving a bigger turbo etc.
140cc/5cyl OM605 would typically stop around 350bhp/300whp for a well built setup
(11-29-2015, 12:11 PM)atypicalguy 0.14 cc/bang x 5 cyl x 2000 bangs/min x 60 min/hr is 84,000 cc/hr
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
Your BSFC number is wrong. At 4000rpm it is over 300 for OM617 and getting worse the higher the RPM. At 4500rpm it is 330. Peak HP on a tuned OM60* is reached high in the RPM range and BSFC is typically worse on a tuned engine as there is more losses driving a bigger turbo etc.
140cc/5cyl OM605 would typically stop around 350bhp/300whp for a well built setup
11-30-2015, 02:42 PM
#26
(11-30-2015, 02:37 AM)Alcaid(11-29-2015, 12:11 PM)atypicalguy 0.14 cc/bang x 5 cyl x 2000 bangs/min x 60 min/hr is 84,000 cc/hr
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
Your BSFC number is wrong. At 4000rpm it is over 300 for OM617 and getting worse the higher the RPM. At 4500rpm it is 330. Peak HP on a tuned OM60* is reached high in the RPM range and BSFC is typically worse on a tuned engine as there is more losses driving a bigger turbo etc.
140cc/5cyl OM605 would typically stop around 350bhp/300whp for a well built setup
OK that makes sense. I was just thinking the 4 valve engines might be more efficient and I had read that 250 is the max efficiency for the 617. But clearly 300g/kwh seems more appropriate for an indirect diesel at max power rpm.
atypicalguy
11-30-2015, 02:42 PM #26(11-30-2015, 02:37 AM)Alcaid(11-29-2015, 12:11 PM)atypicalguy 0.14 cc/bang x 5 cyl x 2000 bangs/min x 60 min/hr is 84,000 cc/hr
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
Your BSFC number is wrong. At 4000rpm it is over 300 for OM617 and getting worse the higher the RPM. At 4500rpm it is 330. Peak HP on a tuned OM60* is reached high in the RPM range and BSFC is typically worse on a tuned engine as there is more losses driving a bigger turbo etc.
140cc/5cyl OM605 would typically stop around 350bhp/300whp for a well built setup
OK that makes sense. I was just thinking the 4 valve engines might be more efficient and I had read that 250 is the max efficiency for the 617. But clearly 300g/kwh seems more appropriate for an indirect diesel at max power rpm.
11-30-2015, 02:45 PM
#27
(11-30-2015, 02:08 AM)Alcaid(11-28-2015, 03:47 PM)atypicalguy(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
Yep, it is T3 and has an internal wastegate
OK. Just trying to figure out what the oil supply and turbo drain lines need to be now. Seems like exhaust flanges are readily available.
FRAS and KKD manifolds look good, but honestly I do not understand why everyone runs all the individual pipes together at the same place. This would seem to promote a lot of turbulence right at the inlet to the turbine, which is where you don't want it. Ideally it would be feeding each runner in at a different place to a common tube which gets larger the closer you get to the turbine. But that is a lot more complicated to build I suppose.
I also wonder if anyone here knows how to use a shop press and kaydar mandrels to bend tubing without welding so many sections, and to get more constant radius into the runners rather than tight angles.
atypicalguy
11-30-2015, 02:45 PM #27(11-30-2015, 02:08 AM)Alcaid(11-28-2015, 03:47 PM)atypicalguy(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
Yep, it is T3 and has an internal wastegate
OK. Just trying to figure out what the oil supply and turbo drain lines need to be now. Seems like exhaust flanges are readily available.
FRAS and KKD manifolds look good, but honestly I do not understand why everyone runs all the individual pipes together at the same place. This would seem to promote a lot of turbulence right at the inlet to the turbine, which is where you don't want it. Ideally it would be feeding each runner in at a different place to a common tube which gets larger the closer you get to the turbine. But that is a lot more complicated to build I suppose.
I also wonder if anyone here knows how to use a shop press and kaydar mandrels to bend tubing without welding so many sections, and to get more constant radius into the runners rather than tight angles.
11-30-2015, 03:41 PM
#28
[/quote]
True tubular twin entry manifolds typically cost more money. Then the cost of a twin scroll turbo is more as well. For 200hp the flow characteristics of a manifold with mandrel bends and swooping runners won't net you significant hp. If your planning to go up hp down the road then that doesn't hurt. But if you don't mind spending the money for a nice manifold and pump I'd do both. For a hx35 you should have 100-140cc elements to match it nicely.
[/quote]Looking to replace the k14 on a 606. I am thinking hx35w, but don't know what size turbine housing to pick. It has 6mm elements currently. Not sure on the cc/min. Maybe 200hp. Thanks.
[/quote]
True tubular twin entry manifolds typically cost more money. Then the cost of a twin scroll turbo is more as well. For 200hp the flow characteristics of a manifold with mandrel bends and swooping runners won't net you significant hp. If your planning to go up hp down the road then that doesn't hurt. But if you don't mind spending the money for a nice manifold and pump I'd do both. For a hx35 you should have 100-140cc elements to match it nicely.
11-30-2015, 04:20 PM
#29
raysorenson
11-30-2015, 04:20 PM #29Flow in the manifolds is pulsed. Tubular manifolds, as typically constructed, do a good job of allowing the energy of the exhaust pulses to make it all the way to the turbine. It's more about preserving energy for the turbine than having the absolute best flow possible.
11-30-2015, 04:28 PM
#30
I would think pulses would superimpose nicely, just as they do with sound waves. There may be an advantage to spacing them out so they hit the turbine wheel at constant intervals I suppose. Is this the reason for keeping them separate?
atypicalguy
11-30-2015, 04:28 PM #30Thanks for the replies. I realize it is a bit moot at 200hp but I have a theory my k14is too restrictive at the turbine for the current fuel level. So that's why thinking td05h-16g. But that requires a new flange, and I think putting one on the stock manifold is a bit silly. So I am looking g at manifold designs.
I would think pulses would superimpose nicely, just as they do with sound waves. There may be an advantage to spacing them out so they hit the turbine wheel at constant intervals I suppose. Is this the reason for keeping them separate?
11-30-2015, 05:00 PM
#31
AFAIK it's a good idea to separate the pulses so that they hit the turbine with as much energy as possible. That's why divided manifolds and twin scroll turbos exist. Read more here: http://www.autozine.org/technical_school...ion_4.html
11-30-2015, 05:46 PM
#32
BTW, I understand sonic waves don't make it to the turbine so equal length loses importance. Keeping the runners as short as possible reduces volume, which is good, so some runners being shorter than others isn't much of a sin.
raysorenson
11-30-2015, 05:46 PM #32On an I6 the front half and rear half cylinders are separated to keep exhaust pulses an even 120* apart.
BTW, I understand sonic waves don't make it to the turbine so equal length loses importance. Keeping the runners as short as possible reduces volume, which is good, so some runners being shorter than others isn't much of a sin.
11-30-2015, 06:10 PM
#33
I suppose Ray that using a twin scroll turbo with front three cylinders on one and back three on the other scroll would be desirable then?
I have not given up on the compound idea but I hear that the bw s200 turbos have an even more modern turbine wheel which spools almost as well as a compound setup. Perhaps the compressors are more high pressure than my target though.
Overall still leaning toward the mhi td05H then compound later unless one of those ihi compound/sequential setups will work. Should prob decide now to avoid building two manifolds.
atypicalguy
11-30-2015, 06:10 PM #33Nice article Petar. Thanks for the link. I have bookmarked it.
I suppose Ray that using a twin scroll turbo with front three cylinders on one and back three on the other scroll would be desirable then?
I have not given up on the compound idea but I hear that the bw s200 turbos have an even more modern turbine wheel which spools almost as well as a compound setup. Perhaps the compressors are more high pressure than my target though.
Overall still leaning toward the mhi td05H then compound later unless one of those ihi compound/sequential setups will work. Should prob decide now to avoid building two manifolds.
11-30-2015, 06:13 PM
#34
Not using the twin scroll has the possibility that your pulse is going back into another cilinder.
Reducing volume is a real benefit at the intake. I think the biggest problem in turbo-spooling is the rotating mass in the turbo. Thats why twin turbo.
This post was last modified: 11-30-2015, 06:14 PM by Tito.
Why would sonic waves not make it to the turbine? I highly believe in equal length runners. not so much on a twin scroll though. However, I did a log-style manifold once and it spooled up like hell...
Not using the twin scroll has the possibility that your pulse is going back into another cilinder.
Reducing volume is a real benefit at the intake. I think the biggest problem in turbo-spooling is the rotating mass in the turbo. Thats why twin turbo.
11-30-2015, 10:34 PM
#35
raysorenson
11-30-2015, 10:34 PM #35The shortest path to the turbine is the best path. Log manifolds do this best but they disrupt particle flow. A low volume log manifold will spool best but become a restriction at high rpms. Tubular turbocharger manifolds should be a compromise between log manifolds and long-tube headers. They should have as little volume as possible and disrupt particle flow as little as possible. Additionally, particle flow is disrupted by changes in direction. Adding additional bends to the tubes that would normally be shorter for the sole purpose of equalizing length both adds volume and absorbs particle inertia.
12-01-2015, 08:16 AM
#36
Taken and adapted from 'Forced Induction Performance Tuning' by A. Graham Bell.
lol
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Separate manifold runners will separate the puffs from each cylinder so the turbine wheel receives distinct separate puffs which helps to spool it. Because each puff is a acceleration event where as a log manifold combines all the puffs into one big but less distinct puff.
Taken and adapted from 'Forced Induction Performance Tuning' by A. Graham Bell.
lol
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
12-02-2015, 07:31 PM
#37
(11-30-2015, 02:08 AM)Alcaid(11-28-2015, 03:47 PM)atypicalguy(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
Yep, it is T3 and has an internal wastegate
Does that turbo require water cooling?
atypicalguy
12-02-2015, 07:31 PM #37(11-30-2015, 02:08 AM)Alcaid(11-28-2015, 03:47 PM)atypicalguy(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM)Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiencyOK I see. It sounds like a good solution. Is it a t3 flange? Thanks.
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
Yep, it is T3 and has an internal wastegate
Does that turbo require water cooling?
12-02-2015, 07:33 PM
#38
http://www.invasionautoproducts.com/05bmwcarkpk22.html
KP39-89 + K26-04 Turbos
atypicalguy
12-02-2015, 07:33 PM #38Anyone ever think about putting one of these R2S compound setups from a 2008 bmw 535d onto an om606?
http://www.invasionautoproducts.com/05bmwcarkpk22.html
KP39-89 + K26-04 Turbos
12-03-2015, 09:25 AM
#40
raysorenson
12-03-2015, 09:25 AM #40The one on the LCF has a K16/27 combo. It makes 200hp on a 4.2 DI. Not sure what it might make on a 3.0l IDI engine.
12-03-2015, 10:27 AM
#41
(12-03-2015, 09:25 AM)raysorenson The one on the LCF has a K16/27 combo. It makes 200hp on a 4.2 DI. Not sure what it might make on a 3.0l IDI engine.
What is LCF? Google says 'Lifespring Christian Fellowship'..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(12-03-2015, 09:25 AM)raysorenson The one on the LCF has a K16/27 combo. It makes 200hp on a 4.2 DI. Not sure what it might make on a 3.0l IDI engine.
What is LCF? Google says 'Lifespring Christian Fellowship'..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
12-03-2015, 01:07 PM
#42
(12-03-2015, 10:27 AM)Hario(12-03-2015, 09:25 AM)raysorenson The one on the LCF has a K16/27 combo. It makes 200hp on a 4.2 DI. Not sure what it might make on a 3.0l IDI engine.
What is LCF? Google says 'Lifespring Christian Fellowship'..
http://www.internationalpowerstroke.com/VT275.html
raysorenson
12-03-2015, 01:07 PM #42(12-03-2015, 10:27 AM)Hario(12-03-2015, 09:25 AM)raysorenson The one on the LCF has a K16/27 combo. It makes 200hp on a 4.2 DI. Not sure what it might make on a 3.0l IDI engine.
What is LCF? Google says 'Lifespring Christian Fellowship'..
http://www.internationalpowerstroke.com/VT275.html
12-03-2015, 02:31 PM
#43
I think the curve from the 2008 535d looks pretty good, which is another 3L inline 6 with four valves per cylinder. It has the smaller set of turbos. Look how fast the torque jumps.
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/wykres_power_m.php
atypicalguy
12-03-2015, 02:31 PM #43Some guys are using the bigger one on the 4bt but no numbers yet.
I think the curve from the 2008 535d looks pretty good, which is another 3L inline 6 with four valves per cylinder. It has the smaller set of turbos. Look how fast the torque jumps.
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/wykres_power_m.php
12-05-2015, 05:45 AM
#45
(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM). http://www.motorgeek.com/download/file.p...8183Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiency
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
I did find this nice low PR map from a big k27 wheel which is interesting because of the 77% efficiency down to 1.4 or so
I wonder if wheels have to be larger diameter to work well at those lower pressure ratios.
atypicalguy
12-05-2015, 05:45 AM #45(11-25-2015, 03:56 AM). http://www.motorgeek.com/download/file.p...8183Alcaid The 2470GGA comp map is readily available and a close fit (60.5/42.4mm) flows 32.5lbs/min @ 60% efficiency
Stock OM606 turbo has a 2472GGC compressor wheel (60.5/43.65mm), will flow slightly more than the 2470GGA due to the bigger inducer, about 34.4lbs/min. Turbine is really a choking point on this turbo and turbine is a very old and inefficient design
The TD05H-16G small flows 38.3lbs/min but has a much better flowing turbine and a much newer an more efficient design. Not more than needed for a fast spooling 200whp setup.
I did find this nice low PR map from a big k27 wheel which is interesting because of the 77% efficiency down to 1.4 or so
I wonder if wheels have to be larger diameter to work well at those lower pressure ratios.
12-12-2015, 11:12 PM
#47
http://not2fast.com/turbo/maps/td05-16gsmall.gif
atypicalguy
12-12-2015, 11:12 PM #47Found the tdo5h 16g small map
http://not2fast.com/turbo/maps/td05-16gsmall.gif
12-12-2015, 11:42 PM
#48
http://not2fast.com/turbo/maps/td05-16gsmall.gif
atypicalguy
12-12-2015, 11:42 PM #48Found the tdo5h 16g small map
http://not2fast.com/turbo/maps/td05-16gsmall.gif
12-27-2015, 02:39 AM
#50
(11-30-2015, 02:37 AM)Alcaid(11-29-2015, 12:11 PM)atypicalguy 0.14 cc/bang x 5 cyl x 2000 bangs/min x 60 min/hr is 84,000 cc/hr
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
Your BSFC number is wrong. At 4000rpm it is over 300 for OM617 and getting worse the higher the RPM. At 4500rpm it is 330. Peak HP on a tuned OM60* is reached high in the RPM range and BSFC is typically worse on a tuned engine as there is more losses driving a bigger turbo etc.
140cc/5cyl OM605 would typically stop around 350bhp/300whp for a well built setup
at 6000rpm, this would be 395 g/kwh or 0.65 lb/hph
at 5000rpm, 330 and 0.54
atypicalguy
12-27-2015, 02:39 AM #50(11-30-2015, 02:37 AM)Alcaid(11-29-2015, 12:11 PM)atypicalguy 0.14 cc/bang x 5 cyl x 2000 bangs/min x 60 min/hr is 84,000 cc/hr
84000cc x 0.85g/cc is 71400g/hr
71400 g/hr / 225g/kwh (not sure what actual bsfc of the om605 is, but let's say midway between an om617 at 250g/kwh and a good di motor at 200g/kwh or 225g/kwh) = 317kw
317kw x 1.34 hp/kw is 425hp
So you have more fuel available than you need for your target power level. If we reduce the fueling level 30% it should be right on 300hp. So redo the above Calculations at that fuel level to figure out how much air you need and use that info to pick your turbo.
Your BSFC number is wrong. At 4000rpm it is over 300 for OM617 and getting worse the higher the RPM. At 4500rpm it is 330. Peak HP on a tuned OM60* is reached high in the RPM range and BSFC is typically worse on a tuned engine as there is more losses driving a bigger turbo etc.
140cc/5cyl OM605 would typically stop around 350bhp/300whp for a well built setup
at 6000rpm, this would be 395 g/kwh or 0.65 lb/hph
at 5000rpm, 330 and 0.54
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