om617a head gasket
om617a head gasket
01-07-2016, 10:13 AM
#1
How difficult is it to replace the head gasket on the om617a? Is it mandatory to completely remove the timing chain? A little background on the issue. About a year ago after driving for 3 hours I noticed a small steady stream of air bubble in my overflow tank (the engine is in a jeep with conventional cooling system). I panicked and immediately thought head gasket. I treated the system with sodium silicate as per the instructions to no aval. A couple days later tested the escaping air with one of those fliud devices that test for exhaust gas, it tested negative after 20min of continuous bubbling. There are no signs of water in my oil and no white smoke out the exhaust. New water pump, thermostat and bleed tube is not occluded. The engine has 200k and runs very strong. So now a year later I've installed a 7.5mm M pump and preparing for a turbo upgrade and thought I'd flush the system. For the record the amount of bubbling has remained the same. While flushing the system I noticed a very slight oil sheen on the surface of the flushed water. Another thing, when warm the radiator pushes water into the overflow but never sucks it back in when cool. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, I'm at the point that I'm about ready to pull the head before this drives me crazy! Or......send on oil sample to Blackstone labs for coolant in oil test and if negative forget about it.
01-07-2016, 01:04 PM
#2
Duncansport
01-07-2016, 01:04 PM #2Its easy, just tie a ziptie to the chain and hang it while you remove the head.
01-07-2016, 01:28 PM
#3
in the other hand if the gasket is leaking oil probably oil would be presente in the coolant , visibly presente. or the coolant in the oil....
usually gasket problems show up sooner or later... till there leave it alone.
did u consider beeding the cooling system? , since u changed the car behind the engine , most probably the system needs bleeding!!!
the chain, u can drop it down. it wont slip the crank, and even if it does u need to time the engine after u install the head again.
basically, new cam and pump timing is needed ...so...
good luck
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
leave it be ... if u have a head gasket blown most probably the engine temperature woud sky rocket even with medium pull, and the coolant would disapear in a noticeable way.
in the other hand if the gasket is leaking oil probably oil would be presente in the coolant , visibly presente. or the coolant in the oil....
usually gasket problems show up sooner or later... till there leave it alone.
did u consider beeding the cooling system? , since u changed the car behind the engine , most probably the system needs bleeding!!!
the chain, u can drop it down. it wont slip the crank, and even if it does u need to time the engine after u install the head again.
basically, new cam and pump timing is needed ...so...
good luck
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
01-07-2016, 03:06 PM
#4
(01-07-2016, 01:28 PM)barrote leave it be ... if u have a head gasket blown most probably the engine temperature woud sky rocket even with medium pull, and the coolant would disapear in a noticeable way.Thank you for the most excellent replies! I will leave it as you suggest. I agree with your diagnosis but what would cause this continues small bubbles? I have bled the air out many times and it's been over a year, you'd think if is was an air pocket it would have expelled by now. I do have a heat issue but only at 70mph or greater. The heat creeps up to about 235* slowly while traveling at 70mph for long periods. I hate to see the water temp soo high, is this normal?
in the other hand if the gasket is leaking oil probably oil would be presente in the coolant , visibly presente. or the coolant in the oil....
usually gasket problems show up sooner or later... till there leave it alone.
did u consider beeding the cooling system? , since u changed the car behind the engine , most probably the system needs bleeding!!!
the chain, u can drop it down. it wont slip the crank, and even if it does u need to time the engine after u install the head again.
basically, new cam and pump timing is needed ...so...
good luck
(01-07-2016, 01:28 PM)barrote leave it be ... if u have a head gasket blown most probably the engine temperature woud sky rocket even with medium pull, and the coolant would disapear in a noticeable way.Thank you for the most excellent replies! I will leave it as you suggest. I agree with your diagnosis but what would cause this continues small bubbles? I have bled the air out many times and it's been over a year, you'd think if is was an air pocket it would have expelled by now. I do have a heat issue but only at 70mph or greater. The heat creeps up to about 235* slowly while traveling at 70mph for long periods. I hate to see the water temp soo high, is this normal?
in the other hand if the gasket is leaking oil probably oil would be presente in the coolant , visibly presente. or the coolant in the oil....
usually gasket problems show up sooner or later... till there leave it alone.
did u consider beeding the cooling system? , since u changed the car behind the engine , most probably the system needs bleeding!!!
the chain, u can drop it down. it wont slip the crank, and even if it does u need to time the engine after u install the head again.
basically, new cam and pump timing is needed ...so...
good luck
01-07-2016, 05:28 PM
#6
sorry to say that but MB engines run in the 90ºC zone even if abused, above 100ºC u can expect a head gasket blown. nevertheless if it is gasket blown it will show sooner or later , and then u just take chance changing it.regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
that is 110ºC , that´s high assuming u have a good radiator and the temp sensor is calibrated correctly the head gasket is blown those are the simptoms... sorry to say that but MB engines run in the 90ºC zone even if abused, above 100ºC u can expect a head gasket blown. nevertheless if it is gasket blown it will show sooner or later , and then u just take chance changing it.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
01-07-2016, 06:23 PM
#7
(01-07-2016, 05:28 PM)barrote that is 110ºC , that´s high assuming u have a good radiator and the temp sensor is calibrated correctly the head gasket is blown those are the simptoms...
regards
It runs 185* most of the time. Factory service manual says it can safely run to the red mark on hills and highway speed. That red mark is 252* (122*c). I think I'm pushing it hard since the Jeep is heavy and aerodynamic like a brick. I think if it was the gasket the temp would rise very quickly. Either way your information is right on. I think I'll do as you suggest and just watch it slowly. One would think if it is the head gasket it should progress quickly.
(01-07-2016, 05:28 PM)barrote that is 110ºC , that´s high assuming u have a good radiator and the temp sensor is calibrated correctly the head gasket is blown those are the simptoms...
regards
It runs 185* most of the time. Factory service manual says it can safely run to the red mark on hills and highway speed. That red mark is 252* (122*c). I think I'm pushing it hard since the Jeep is heavy and aerodynamic like a brick. I think if it was the gasket the temp would rise very quickly. Either way your information is right on. I think I'll do as you suggest and just watch it slowly. One would think if it is the head gasket it should progress quickly.
01-07-2016, 06:48 PM
#8
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Iron head master race! I've boiled the radiator top tank dry twice, she still keeps chugging along
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
01-08-2016, 02:01 PM
#11
______________________________
'85 300D ~ 381,XXX miles, HD Bilstein shocks, 27.50x8.50x14R General Grabber AT2 tires, 4 E-Code headlight upgrade with 90w/130w bulbs, boost turned up, new timing chain, and injectors. Brought back from the dead and the hell of WVO! SOLD
'85 CJ7 ~ OM617 swap, Taurus electric fan, T5 trans, Dana 300, 4.88 R&P, Mile Marker locking hubs, ALDA removed, MKII hybrid boost controller, Greazzer's upgraded overflow valve, AMC 20 rear disk brake conversion, Aussie locked with 33's and 5" Rough Country lift.
This sounds eerily similar to the Jeep swap that we did... Bubbles and all. We did the head gasket, it helped, but our temps are still higher than we would like. What your gearing/trans?
______________________________
'85 300D ~ 381,XXX miles, HD Bilstein shocks, 27.50x8.50x14R General Grabber AT2 tires, 4 E-Code headlight upgrade with 90w/130w bulbs, boost turned up, new timing chain, and injectors. Brought back from the dead and the hell of WVO! SOLD
'85 CJ7 ~ OM617 swap, Taurus electric fan, T5 trans, Dana 300, 4.88 R&P, Mile Marker locking hubs, ALDA removed, MKII hybrid boost controller, Greazzer's upgraded overflow valve, AMC 20 rear disk brake conversion, Aussie locked with 33's and 5" Rough Country lift.
01-08-2016, 05:23 PM
#12
(01-08-2016, 02:01 PM)turbojeep This sounds eerily similar to the Jeep swap that we did... Bubbles and all. We did the head gasket, it helped, but our temps are still higher than we would like. What your gearing/trans?32" tire, 4.56 gears, 700r4. Did the bubbles go away after the head gasket replacement?
(01-08-2016, 02:01 PM)turbojeep This sounds eerily similar to the Jeep swap that we did... Bubbles and all. We did the head gasket, it helped, but our temps are still higher than we would like. What your gearing/trans?32" tire, 4.56 gears, 700r4. Did the bubbles go away after the head gasket replacement?
01-08-2016, 10:07 PM
#13
1. Weight. This engine was designed for vehicles that weigh less than Jeeps.
2. Aerodynamics. Jeeps have the aerodynamics of a large brick
3. Tire size. Jeeps run bigger tires.
4. Radiator. The Cherokee horizontal flow radiator design sucks.
5. RPM. it's almost impossible to gear the Jeep deep enough for the designed high rpm band of these engines therfore it's almost always being lugged around, this causes the engine not to breath and causes heat soak. RPM is 2400-2600 all the way to 65mph.
6. Stall speed. Large high stall torque converter builds lots of heat that is transmitted to the engine coolant through the radiator.
7. Oil temp. Jeep requires notched pan which reduces oil capacity by 1 quart. Also airflow through oil cooler is reduced due to low airflow behind bumper. I have measured oil sump temps upto 245* with IR gun at the pan.
Some of these issues are easily corrected some are impossible to correct. With all that can be improved the engine does remarkably well. Here's my plan.
6. Install 4th gear lock-up switch. And install dedicated trans cooler outs of radiator. This should lighten the radiators load considerably.
7. Install 215* oil thermostat and increase the cooler size by 1 quart and move to forced air location. Maybe increase oil sump capacity also.
I will be doing these modifications soon.
I have some theories on these heat issues. First off the FSM says these engines can with proper coolant mix run safely to 252*! Although safe I think this shows the factory radiator is just barely adequate. With that in mind.
1. Weight. This engine was designed for vehicles that weigh less than Jeeps.
2. Aerodynamics. Jeeps have the aerodynamics of a large brick
3. Tire size. Jeeps run bigger tires.
4. Radiator. The Cherokee horizontal flow radiator design sucks.
5. RPM. it's almost impossible to gear the Jeep deep enough for the designed high rpm band of these engines therfore it's almost always being lugged around, this causes the engine not to breath and causes heat soak. RPM is 2400-2600 all the way to 65mph.
6. Stall speed. Large high stall torque converter builds lots of heat that is transmitted to the engine coolant through the radiator.
7. Oil temp. Jeep requires notched pan which reduces oil capacity by 1 quart. Also airflow through oil cooler is reduced due to low airflow behind bumper. I have measured oil sump temps upto 245* with IR gun at the pan.
Some of these issues are easily corrected some are impossible to correct. With all that can be improved the engine does remarkably well. Here's my plan.
6. Install 4th gear lock-up switch. And install dedicated trans cooler outs of radiator. This should lighten the radiators load considerably.
7. Install 215* oil thermostat and increase the cooler size by 1 quart and move to forced air location. Maybe increase oil sump capacity also.
I will be doing these modifications soon.
01-09-2016, 02:53 AM
#14
atypicalguy
01-09-2016, 02:53 AM #14If your donor was really high miles you could obviously refresh the head by doing valves guides and seals while it is off. And make sure the thermostat is new and installed right side up. And be sure the system is properly burped. But sounds like you have an airflow issue. Maybe some spal electric fans on thermostat wo u ld help?
01-09-2016, 04:07 AM
#15
(01-07-2016, 10:13 AM)Evenglass ...(the engine is in a jeep with conventional cooling system)....
Hi,
do you use the Jeep cooling system or the Mercedes cooling system?
The radiator in a W123 Turbodiesel was the biggest one ever available for this car. It is even bigger than a W123 280E radiator.
A car who has a similar sized radiator like a W123 Turbodiesel is a W126 500E!
So depending on which cooling system you use in my opinion it could be too small or plugged up.
A W123 TDT weighs 3582-4410pounds depending on how many goodies are installed.
How much heavier is the Jeep?
Gruß
Volker
(01-07-2016, 10:13 AM)Evenglass ...(the engine is in a jeep with conventional cooling system)....
Hi,
do you use the Jeep cooling system or the Mercedes cooling system?
The radiator in a W123 Turbodiesel was the biggest one ever available for this car. It is even bigger than a W123 280E radiator.
A car who has a similar sized radiator like a W123 Turbodiesel is a W126 500E!
So depending on which cooling system you use in my opinion it could be too small or plugged up.
A W123 TDT weighs 3582-4410pounds depending on how many goodies are installed.
How much heavier is the Jeep?
Gruß
Volker
01-09-2016, 06:17 AM
#16
(01-09-2016, 02:53 AM)atypicalguy If your donor was really high miles you could obviously refresh the head by doing valves guides and seals while it is off. And make sure the thermostat is new and installed right side up. And be sure the system is properly burped. But sounds like you have an airflow issue. Maybe some spal electric fans on thermostat would help?Thsnk you for the suggestions. The engine has just at 200k now. New thermostat, new water pump, 3 10" Spal fans 820cfm each controlled by PWM controller.
(01-09-2016, 02:53 AM)atypicalguy If your donor was really high miles you could obviously refresh the head by doing valves guides and seals while it is off. And make sure the thermostat is new and installed right side up. And be sure the system is properly burped. But sounds like you have an airflow issue. Maybe some spal electric fans on thermostat would help?Thsnk you for the suggestions. The engine has just at 200k now. New thermostat, new water pump, 3 10" Spal fans 820cfm each controlled by PWM controller.
01-09-2016, 06:30 AM
#17
(01-09-2016, 04:07 AM)Volker407I am forced to use the Jeep radiator but the are the same dixe square inch wise. All new copper brass 3 core CSF with18psi cap. The Jeep weighs about 3600lbs but the aerodynamics suck. I only have issues above 65mph. You could very well be correct regarding the radiator being too small especially with the m pump. I'd think is takes alot of power to push this thing down the road at highway speeds. Here's the strange thing, I measured the water temps at inlet and outlet of radiator. At 70mph and inlet temp of 235* the outlet temp is 195-200* thats over a 35* drop across the radiator, from what ive read that is very good. Most new cars only have a 10* drop. I think my transmission oil and engine oil might be over running my cooling system at speed. That and because I'm completely out of ideas.(01-07-2016, 10:13 AM)Evenglass ...(the engine is in a jeep with conventional cooling system)....
Hi,
do you use the Jeep cooling system or the Mercedes cooling system?
The radiator in a W123 Turbodiesel was the biggest one ever available for this car. It is even bigger than a W123 280E radiator.
A car who has a similar sized radiator like a W123 Turbodiesel is a W126 500E!
So depending on which cooling system you use in my opinion it could be too small or plugged up.
A W123 TDT weighs 3582-4410pounds depending on how many goodies are installed.
How much heavier is the Jeep?
Gruß
Volker
(01-09-2016, 04:07 AM)Volker407I am forced to use the Jeep radiator but the are the same dixe square inch wise. All new copper brass 3 core CSF with18psi cap. The Jeep weighs about 3600lbs but the aerodynamics suck. I only have issues above 65mph. You could very well be correct regarding the radiator being too small especially with the m pump. I'd think is takes alot of power to push this thing down the road at highway speeds. Here's the strange thing, I measured the water temps at inlet and outlet of radiator. At 70mph and inlet temp of 235* the outlet temp is 195-200* thats over a 35* drop across the radiator, from what ive read that is very good. Most new cars only have a 10* drop. I think my transmission oil and engine oil might be over running my cooling system at speed. That and because I'm completely out of ideas.(01-07-2016, 10:13 AM)Evenglass ...(the engine is in a jeep with conventional cooling system)....
Hi,
do you use the Jeep cooling system or the Mercedes cooling system?
The radiator in a W123 Turbodiesel was the biggest one ever available for this car. It is even bigger than a W123 280E radiator.
A car who has a similar sized radiator like a W123 Turbodiesel is a W126 500E!
So depending on which cooling system you use in my opinion it could be too small or plugged up.
A W123 TDT weighs 3582-4410pounds depending on how many goodies are installed.
How much heavier is the Jeep?
Gruß
Volker
01-09-2016, 02:43 PM
#18
(01-09-2016, 06:30 AM)Evenglass(01-09-2016, 04:07 AM)Volker407I am forced to use the Jeep radiator but the are the same dixe square inch wise. All new copper brass 3 core CSF with18psi cap. The Jeep weighs about 3600lbs but the aerodynamics suck. I only have issues above 65mph. You could very well be correct regarding the radiator being too small especially with the m pump. I'd think is takes alot of power to push this thing down the road at highway speeds. Here's the strange thing, I measured the water temps at inlet and outlet of radiator. At 70mph and inlet temp of 235* the outlet temp is 195-200* thats over a 35* drop across the radiator, from what ive read that is very good. Most new cars only have a 10* drop. I think my transmission oil and engine oil might be over running my cooling system at speed. That and because I'm completely out of ideas.(01-07-2016, 10:13 AM)Evenglass ...(the engine is in a jeep with conventional cooling system)....
Hi,
do you use the Jeep cooling system or the Mercedes cooling system?
The radiator in a W123 Turbodiesel was the biggest one ever available for this car. It is even bigger than a W123 280E radiator.
A car who has a similar sized radiator like a W123 Turbodiesel is a W126 500E!
So depending on which cooling system you use in my opinion it could be too small or plugged up.
A W123 TDT weighs 3582-4410pounds depending on how many goodies are installed.
How much heavier is the Jeep?
Gruß
Volker
I just did a jeep XJ OM 617 conversion with a new stock radiator with a fan shroud I built. No problems with cooling. A remote trans cooler would help a lot also, as will the later SD water pump pulley and fan.
Attached Files
Image(s)(01-09-2016, 06:30 AM)Evenglass(01-09-2016, 04:07 AM)Volker407I am forced to use the Jeep radiator but the are the same dixe square inch wise. All new copper brass 3 core CSF with18psi cap. The Jeep weighs about 3600lbs but the aerodynamics suck. I only have issues above 65mph. You could very well be correct regarding the radiator being too small especially with the m pump. I'd think is takes alot of power to push this thing down the road at highway speeds. Here's the strange thing, I measured the water temps at inlet and outlet of radiator. At 70mph and inlet temp of 235* the outlet temp is 195-200* thats over a 35* drop across the radiator, from what ive read that is very good. Most new cars only have a 10* drop. I think my transmission oil and engine oil might be over running my cooling system at speed. That and because I'm completely out of ideas.(01-07-2016, 10:13 AM)Evenglass ...(the engine is in a jeep with conventional cooling system)....
Hi,
do you use the Jeep cooling system or the Mercedes cooling system?
The radiator in a W123 Turbodiesel was the biggest one ever available for this car. It is even bigger than a W123 280E radiator.
A car who has a similar sized radiator like a W123 Turbodiesel is a W126 500E!
So depending on which cooling system you use in my opinion it could be too small or plugged up.
A W123 TDT weighs 3582-4410pounds depending on how many goodies are installed.
How much heavier is the Jeep?
Gruß
Volker
I just did a jeep XJ OM 617 conversion with a new stock radiator with a fan shroud I built. No problems with cooling. A remote trans cooler would help a lot also, as will the later SD water pump pulley and fan.
Attached Files
Image(s)
01-09-2016, 09:29 PM
#19
That looks like a great fan shroud zeeman. Sometimes I wish I'd have stayed with the mechanical fan for many reasons but here in Florida the low speed airflow of the electrics really helps the Ac compressor with head pressure. I don't think air flow is my issue because it only gets warm above 65-70mph. What or where did you get that water neck for the thermostat housing? I could really use one of those as I have the long downward pointing one now. Nice clean install. We did install the smaller SD pulley on the water pump.
01-09-2016, 10:02 PM
#20
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Everything seems correct in the pics, and your description is the same as what's in the pics?
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
01-10-2016, 02:29 AM
#21
(01-09-2016, 09:29 PM)Evenglass That looks like a great fan shroud zeeman. Sometimes I wish I'd have stayed with the mechanical fan for many reasons but here in Florida the low speed airflow of the electrics really helps the Ac compressor with head pressure. I don't think air flow is my issue because it only gets warm above 65-70mph. What or where did you get that water neck for the thermostat housing? I could really use one of those as I have the long downward pointing one now. Nice clean install. We did install the smaller SD pulley on the water pump.
That is an early non turbo water neck with a aluminum adapter I make for the thermostat so I can rotate the water neck, and I run a bypass hose from it. It is odd you have a problem at high RPM, does your lockup on the converter work? Be interesting to see if moving the trans oil cooler out of the radiator helps. The stock Cherokee oil cooler in the tank takes up a lot of area and adds a lot of heat to the radiator. Another possibility is a radiator hose sucking closed at high speed?
(01-09-2016, 09:29 PM)Evenglass That looks like a great fan shroud zeeman. Sometimes I wish I'd have stayed with the mechanical fan for many reasons but here in Florida the low speed airflow of the electrics really helps the Ac compressor with head pressure. I don't think air flow is my issue because it only gets warm above 65-70mph. What or where did you get that water neck for the thermostat housing? I could really use one of those as I have the long downward pointing one now. Nice clean install. We did install the smaller SD pulley on the water pump.
That is an early non turbo water neck with a aluminum adapter I make for the thermostat so I can rotate the water neck, and I run a bypass hose from it. It is odd you have a problem at high RPM, does your lockup on the converter work? Be interesting to see if moving the trans oil cooler out of the radiator helps. The stock Cherokee oil cooler in the tank takes up a lot of area and adds a lot of heat to the radiator. Another possibility is a radiator hose sucking closed at high speed?
01-10-2016, 04:29 PM
#22
(01-10-2016, 02:29 AM)zeemanI put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.(01-09-2016, 09:29 PM)Evenglass That looks like a great fan shroud zeeman. Sometimes I wish I'd have stayed with the mechanical fan for many reasons but here in Florida the low speed airflow of the electrics really helps the Ac compressor with head pressure. I don't think air flow is my issue because it only gets warm above 65-70mph. What or where did you get that water neck for the thermostat housing? I could really use one of those as I have the long downward pointing one now. Nice clean install. We did install the smaller SD pulley on the water pump.
That is an early non turbo water neck with a aluminum adapter I make for the thermostat so I can rotate the water neck, and I run a bypass hose from it. It is odd you have a problem at high RPM, does your lockup on the converter work? Be interesting to see if moving the trans oil cooler out of the radiator helps. The stock Cherokee oil cooler in the tank takes up a lot of area and adds a lot of heat to the radiator. Another possibility is a radiator hose sucking closed at high speed?
(01-10-2016, 02:29 AM)zeemanI put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.(01-09-2016, 09:29 PM)Evenglass That looks like a great fan shroud zeeman. Sometimes I wish I'd have stayed with the mechanical fan for many reasons but here in Florida the low speed airflow of the electrics really helps the Ac compressor with head pressure. I don't think air flow is my issue because it only gets warm above 65-70mph. What or where did you get that water neck for the thermostat housing? I could really use one of those as I have the long downward pointing one now. Nice clean install. We did install the smaller SD pulley on the water pump.
That is an early non turbo water neck with a aluminum adapter I make for the thermostat so I can rotate the water neck, and I run a bypass hose from it. It is odd you have a problem at high RPM, does your lockup on the converter work? Be interesting to see if moving the trans oil cooler out of the radiator helps. The stock Cherokee oil cooler in the tank takes up a lot of area and adds a lot of heat to the radiator. Another possibility is a radiator hose sucking closed at high speed?
01-10-2016, 07:34 PM
#23
(01-10-2016, 04:29 PM)Evenglass(01-10-2016, 02:29 AM)zeemanI put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.(01-09-2016, 09:29 PM)Evenglass That looks like a great fan shroud zeeman. Sometimes I wish I'd have stayed with the mechanical fan for many reasons but here in Florida the low speed airflow of the electrics really helps the Ac compressor with head pressure. I don't think air flow is my issue because it only gets warm above 65-70mph. What or where did you get that water neck for the thermostat housing? I could really use one of those as I have the long downward pointing one now. Nice clean install. We did install the smaller SD pulley on the water pump.
That is an early non turbo water neck with a aluminum adapter I make for the thermostat so I can rotate the water neck, and I run a bypass hose from it. It is odd you have a problem at high RPM, does your lockup on the converter work? Be interesting to see if moving the trans oil cooler out of the radiator helps. The stock Cherokee oil cooler in the tank takes up a lot of area and adds a lot of heat to the radiator. Another possibility is a radiator hose sucking closed at high speed?
Very true, also the more things in front of the radiator reduces air flow as well as causing more heat. Might be good to use a larger engine oil cooler with some electric fans to pull air through it instead of in front of the radiator. also what is your exhaust temp difference before and after the larger IP pump.
(01-10-2016, 04:29 PM)Evenglass(01-10-2016, 02:29 AM)zeemanI put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.(01-09-2016, 09:29 PM)Evenglass That looks like a great fan shroud zeeman. Sometimes I wish I'd have stayed with the mechanical fan for many reasons but here in Florida the low speed airflow of the electrics really helps the Ac compressor with head pressure. I don't think air flow is my issue because it only gets warm above 65-70mph. What or where did you get that water neck for the thermostat housing? I could really use one of those as I have the long downward pointing one now. Nice clean install. We did install the smaller SD pulley on the water pump.
That is an early non turbo water neck with a aluminum adapter I make for the thermostat so I can rotate the water neck, and I run a bypass hose from it. It is odd you have a problem at high RPM, does your lockup on the converter work? Be interesting to see if moving the trans oil cooler out of the radiator helps. The stock Cherokee oil cooler in the tank takes up a lot of area and adds a lot of heat to the radiator. Another possibility is a radiator hose sucking closed at high speed?
Very true, also the more things in front of the radiator reduces air flow as well as causing more heat. Might be good to use a larger engine oil cooler with some electric fans to pull air through it instead of in front of the radiator. also what is your exhaust temp difference before and after the larger IP pump.
01-10-2016, 08:48 PM
#24
(01-10-2016, 07:34 PM)zeemanThe oil cooler is behind the bumper underneath the radiator not in front, partially blocked by some sheet metal. Suboptimal at best. Plenty of room under the radiator, enough to run two coolers stacked above one another with a custom bumper to house it all. I don't really think a fan is necessary on the cooler as the oil only heats up when load and boost is applied. Basically unless you're boosting it at low speed while pulling a trailer the only time the oil will circulate to the cooler is at speeds high enough for sufficient airflow. I think this is why Mercedes never included it in it's fan shroud. Believe it or not the EGT's are LOWER at equal speeds by 100*. MW pump, 65ph 10psi boost =egt 950*. M pump 65mph, 7psi boost= egt 850* I hypothesize this is because; 1. fuel injection duration is greatly decreased with the M pump and thus all or most of the heat is spend as HP (more time to completely burn) in the cylinder instead of expelled as heat out the exhaust, due to the longer injection duration of the MW causing higher egt. 2. Because less boost is required for equal speed the charge air is cooler lowering EGT. but.......the increase of power IN the cylinder which in turn heats the coolant and oil is what I'm trying to mitigate. I'm not sure if I'll need an intercooler, 850* is far below factory continous. Per FSM max is 1500*! Continous is 1300*. We will see once I hook the small camper to it. If I only had a couple million for R&D.(01-10-2016, 04:29 PM)Evenglass I put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.
Very true, also the more things in front of the radiator reduces air flow as well as causing more heat. Might be good to use a larger engine oil cooler with some electric fans to pull air through it instead of in front of the radiator. also what is your exhaust temp difference before and after the larger IP pump.
This post was last modified: 01-10-2016, 08:52 PM by Evenglass.
(01-10-2016, 07:34 PM)zeemanThe oil cooler is behind the bumper underneath the radiator not in front, partially blocked by some sheet metal. Suboptimal at best. Plenty of room under the radiator, enough to run two coolers stacked above one another with a custom bumper to house it all. I don't really think a fan is necessary on the cooler as the oil only heats up when load and boost is applied. Basically unless you're boosting it at low speed while pulling a trailer the only time the oil will circulate to the cooler is at speeds high enough for sufficient airflow. I think this is why Mercedes never included it in it's fan shroud. Believe it or not the EGT's are LOWER at equal speeds by 100*. MW pump, 65ph 10psi boost =egt 950*. M pump 65mph, 7psi boost= egt 850* I hypothesize this is because; 1. fuel injection duration is greatly decreased with the M pump and thus all or most of the heat is spend as HP (more time to completely burn) in the cylinder instead of expelled as heat out the exhaust, due to the longer injection duration of the MW causing higher egt. 2. Because less boost is required for equal speed the charge air is cooler lowering EGT. but.......the increase of power IN the cylinder which in turn heats the coolant and oil is what I'm trying to mitigate. I'm not sure if I'll need an intercooler, 850* is far below factory continous. Per FSM max is 1500*! Continous is 1300*. We will see once I hook the small camper to it. If I only had a couple million for R&D.(01-10-2016, 04:29 PM)Evenglass I put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.
Very true, also the more things in front of the radiator reduces air flow as well as causing more heat. Might be good to use a larger engine oil cooler with some electric fans to pull air through it instead of in front of the radiator. also what is your exhaust temp difference before and after the larger IP pump.
01-10-2016, 10:53 PM
#25
(01-10-2016, 08:48 PM)Evenglass(01-10-2016, 07:34 PM)zeemanThe oil cooler is behind the bumper underneath the radiator not in front, partially blocked by some sheet metal. Suboptimal at best. Plenty of room under the radiator, enough to run two coolers stacked above one another with a custom bumper to house it all. I don't really think a fan is necessary on the cooler as the oil only heats up when load and boost is applied. Basically unless you're boosting it at low speed while pulling a trailer the only time the oil will circulate to the cooler is at speeds high enough for sufficient airflow. I think this is why Mercedes never included it in it's fan shroud. Believe it or not the EGT's are LOWER at equal speeds by 100*. MW pump, 65ph 10psi boost =egt 950*. M pump 65mph, 7psi boost= egt 850* I hypothesize this is because; 1. fuel injection duration is greatly decreased with the M pump and thus all or most of the heat is spend as HP (more time to completely burn) in the cylinder instead of expelled as heat out the exhaust, due to the longer injection duration of the MW causing higher egt. 2. Because less boost is required for equal speed the charge air is cooler lowering EGT. but.......the increase of power IN the cylinder which in turn heats the coolant and oil is what I'm trying to mitigate. I'm not sure if I'll need an intercooler, 850* is far below factory continous. Per FSM max is 1500*! Continous is 1300*. We will see once I hook the small camper to it. If I only had a couple million for R&D.(01-10-2016, 04:29 PM)Evenglass I put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.
Very true, also the more things in front of the radiator reduces air flow as well as causing more heat. Might be good to use a larger engine oil cooler with some electric fans to pull air through it instead of in front of the radiator. also what is your exhaust temp difference before and after the larger IP pump.
Sounds like you have covered all the bases already, what size hoes are you running on the oil cooler from the filter? You and I both have to use common sense and trial and error to figure things out. Although I know some engineers that are complete idiots, go figure. A intercooler might help, Banks has some interesting facts on using them. I think I have told Steve what I use that works well. We have also talked about using a dry sump to help internal pressures. You have also lost some oil capacity which doesn't help.
(01-10-2016, 08:48 PM)Evenglass(01-10-2016, 07:34 PM)zeemanThe oil cooler is behind the bumper underneath the radiator not in front, partially blocked by some sheet metal. Suboptimal at best. Plenty of room under the radiator, enough to run two coolers stacked above one another with a custom bumper to house it all. I don't really think a fan is necessary on the cooler as the oil only heats up when load and boost is applied. Basically unless you're boosting it at low speed while pulling a trailer the only time the oil will circulate to the cooler is at speeds high enough for sufficient airflow. I think this is why Mercedes never included it in it's fan shroud. Believe it or not the EGT's are LOWER at equal speeds by 100*. MW pump, 65ph 10psi boost =egt 950*. M pump 65mph, 7psi boost= egt 850* I hypothesize this is because; 1. fuel injection duration is greatly decreased with the M pump and thus all or most of the heat is spend as HP (more time to completely burn) in the cylinder instead of expelled as heat out the exhaust, due to the longer injection duration of the MW causing higher egt. 2. Because less boost is required for equal speed the charge air is cooler lowering EGT. but.......the increase of power IN the cylinder which in turn heats the coolant and oil is what I'm trying to mitigate. I'm not sure if I'll need an intercooler, 850* is far below factory continous. Per FSM max is 1500*! Continous is 1300*. We will see once I hook the small camper to it. If I only had a couple million for R&D.(01-10-2016, 04:29 PM)Evenglass I put springs in the radiator return. I really couldn't run the lockup with the MW pump, the engine needed the extra 200rpm. Now with th M pump I have plenty of power to lockup the converter. 2 days with the the radiator liquid liquid cooler bypassed. With all else being the same my trans temp have not gone over 165*, this is with only the plate style 0.75x10x10 fliud air cooler in front of the radiator. Another thing to consider is the AC, it only happens with AC on. The Ac ccompressor puts a noticeable load on the engine, also the new crossflow Ac condensor seems to have denser fins that while offering great cooling may be reducing airflow at speed. I guess it should come at no surprise that with 70-80% more HP comes more heat. Since this engine really relies on oil for soo much ie, oil galleys running through the head and piston cooling I really believe the engine oil is transferring alot of heat into the water coolant. I think if I can reduce the engine oil temp to maximum 230* will aleviate alot of the cooling issues.
Very true, also the more things in front of the radiator reduces air flow as well as causing more heat. Might be good to use a larger engine oil cooler with some electric fans to pull air through it instead of in front of the radiator. also what is your exhaust temp difference before and after the larger IP pump.
Sounds like you have covered all the bases already, what size hoes are you running on the oil cooler from the filter? You and I both have to use common sense and trial and error to figure things out. Although I know some engineers that are complete idiots, go figure. A intercooler might help, Banks has some interesting facts on using them. I think I have told Steve what I use that works well. We have also talked about using a dry sump to help internal pressures. You have also lost some oil capacity which doesn't help.
01-11-2016, 07:20 AM
#26
[quote pid='78231' dateline='1452476883']
Sounds like you have covered all the bases already, what size hoes are you running on the oil cooler from the filter? You and I both have to use common sense and trial and error to figure things out. Although I know some engineers that are complete idiots, go figure. A intercooler might help, Banks has some interesting facts on using them. I think I have told Steve what I use that works well. We have also talked about using a dry sump to help internal pressures. You have also lost some oil capacity which doesn't help.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I really appreciate the discussion Zeeman. I think we are the only ones to have taken this transplant this far. Oil lines are all 5/8" braided stainless with -10 fittings. I told Steve I agreed with you 100% on the intercooler, the question is will it be worth the packaging nightmare? Everything is possible with enough time and money, it's the money part that gots me. I'm gonna head over to Banks and do some reading, I'll look into the realm of dry sump also which is new to me. My Hx30w should be here this week, should be interesting.
[quote pid='78232' dateline='1452484389']
[quote pid='78231' dateline='1452476883']
Sounds like you have covered all the bases already, what size hoes are you running on the oil cooler from the filter? You and I both have to use common sense and trial and error to figure things out. Although I know some engineers that are complete idiots, go figure. A intercooler might help, Banks has some interesting facts on using them. I think I have told Steve what I use that works well. We have also talked about using a dry sump to help internal pressures. You have also lost some oil capacity which doesn't help.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I really appreciate the discussion Zeeman. I think we are the only ones to have taken this transplant this far. Oil lines are all 5/8" braided stainless with -10 fittings. I told Steve I agreed with you 100% on the intercooler, the question is will it be worth the packaging nightmare? Everything is possible with enough time and money, it's the money part that gots me. I'm gonna head over to Banks and do some reading, I'll look into the realm of dry sump also which is new to me. My Hx30w should be here this week, should be interesting.
01-11-2016, 11:25 AM
#27
(01-11-2016, 07:20 AM)Evenglass [quote pid='78232' dateline='1452484389']
[quote pid='78231' dateline='1452476883']
Sounds like you have covered all the bases already, what size hoes are you running on the oil cooler from the filter? You and I both have to use common sense and trial and error to figure things out. Although I know some engineers that are complete idiots, go figure. A intercooler might help, Banks has some interesting facts on using them. I think I have told Steve what I use that works well. We have also talked about using a dry sump to help internal pressures. You have also lost some oil capacity which doesn't help.
[/quote]
I really appreciate the discussion Zeeman. I think we are the only ones to have taken this transplant this far. Oil lines are all 5/8" braided stainless with -10 fittings. I told Steve I agreed with you 100% on the intercooler, the question is will it be worth the packaging nightmare? Everything is possible with enough time and money, it's the money part that gots me. I'm gonna head over to Banks and do some reading, I'll look into the realm of dry sump also which is new to me. My Hx30w should be here this week, should be interesting.
With the Saab intercooler that has the inlet and outlet on the same side it is not to bad to plumb on the OM617. Enclosed are some pics of that and the water inlet.
[/quote]
Attached Files
Image(s)(01-11-2016, 07:20 AM)Evenglass [quote pid='78232' dateline='1452484389']
[quote pid='78231' dateline='1452476883']
Sounds like you have covered all the bases already, what size hoes are you running on the oil cooler from the filter? You and I both have to use common sense and trial and error to figure things out. Although I know some engineers that are complete idiots, go figure. A intercooler might help, Banks has some interesting facts on using them. I think I have told Steve what I use that works well. We have also talked about using a dry sump to help internal pressures. You have also lost some oil capacity which doesn't help.
[/quote]
I really appreciate the discussion Zeeman. I think we are the only ones to have taken this transplant this far. Oil lines are all 5/8" braided stainless with -10 fittings. I told Steve I agreed with you 100% on the intercooler, the question is will it be worth the packaging nightmare? Everything is possible with enough time and money, it's the money part that gots me. I'm gonna head over to Banks and do some reading, I'll look into the realm of dry sump also which is new to me. My Hx30w should be here this week, should be interesting.
With the Saab intercooler that has the inlet and outlet on the same side it is not to bad to plumb on the OM617. Enclosed are some pics of that and the water inlet.
[/quote]
Attached Files
Image(s)
01-16-2016, 10:11 PM
#28
BTW you jeep guys prolly know but ive seen small block's work fine with the stock radiator, just not optimal.
I didnt see anyone mention it, sorry if it was already. there's a small metal pipe with banjo bolts that goes from the water pump to the block, if it gets plugged you wont be able to bleed the system correctly, may just be the problem, i hear they like to plug up with rust. i had this problem on my 240, but it never got more then 90c so i never bothered to fix it.
BTW you jeep guys prolly know but ive seen small block's work fine with the stock radiator, just not optimal.
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