OM606 late boost
OM606 late boost
So far all is OK but I expected a hell of a lot more.
I have today replaced the injector nozzles and also fiddled with the timing. Unfortunately I did not have a timing light and was alone so I did it by ear. She used to smoke badly and idle rough after a cold start now that seems to be sorted. BTW turned the pump towards the motor can't remember if that is advancing or retarding. The pump was initially set to spec 11 - 13deg IIRC.
My next challenge is to get some power. She is incredibly sluggish until about 3000rpm when the turbo starts boosting and I'm sure I should be getting boost before that. I actually need power in the lower rpm range so currently the OM603 would outperform this beast.
Once I'm going she runs well and boost can go up to 1.2 bar, EGT's are amazingly low and engine temps are also normal.
I am open to suggestions and thanking you in advance.
Hi all, although not a super turbo diesel I converted my OM603 G with the OM606.
So far all is OK but I expected a hell of a lot more.
I have today replaced the injector nozzles and also fiddled with the timing. Unfortunately I did not have a timing light and was alone so I did it by ear. She used to smoke badly and idle rough after a cold start now that seems to be sorted. BTW turned the pump towards the motor can't remember if that is advancing or retarding. The pump was initially set to spec 11 - 13deg IIRC.
My next challenge is to get some power. She is incredibly sluggish until about 3000rpm when the turbo starts boosting and I'm sure I should be getting boost before that. I actually need power in the lower rpm range so currently the OM603 would outperform this beast.
Once I'm going she runs well and boost can go up to 1.2 bar, EGT's are amazingly low and engine temps are also normal.
I am open to suggestions and thanking you in advance.
I have a mechanical pump that was refurbished and calibrated with the 6mm elements from the original pump by a local Bosch pump shop.
I have adjusted the ALDA screw on top in by 1 turn hoping to alleviate the lack of low rpm power.
As for the wastegate, it is something I could look into. I have installed a pressure activated wastegate, but was not suspecting any fault there. From a previous TD I thought even a very small leak would rob all boost. I do get good boost like 1.2 bar but only at 3k upwards rpm. I will however check this out as a very possible cause.
Thank you for responses and keep them coming. Will report back after testing.
ReGards
Hi Guys, thanks for the replies.
I have a mechanical pump that was refurbished and calibrated with the 6mm elements from the original pump by a local Bosch pump shop.
I have adjusted the ALDA screw on top in by 1 turn hoping to alleviate the lack of low rpm power.
As for the wastegate, it is something I could look into. I have installed a pressure activated wastegate, but was not suspecting any fault there. From a previous TD I thought even a very small leak would rob all boost. I do get good boost like 1.2 bar but only at 3k upwards rpm. I will however check this out as a very possible cause.
Thank you for responses and keep them coming. Will report back after testing.
ReGards
U should be aware that a 603 uses with boost 40 to 42cc and a 606 60 to 65cc to realese the hidden power in a 4 valve cylinder at least 80cc is needed, and since boost build ability is directly proportional to fueling u may have your problema there....
BTW the 6mm elemento is able of 90 to 100cc depending on the pump , whereas to say that at least 90cc will be at reach .
One turn in the ALDA screw wont afect much, expecially if the ALDA is not set properly, wich is very common ....
remove it or uncrew the bolt all the way (max fueling position), and then if u want to tune it come back here i´ll direct u.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
The deal with a 605/6 is the 6mm elements by itself can´t do nothing...(swaping the elements only will give u more 10% at the most)
U should be aware that a 603 uses with boost 40 to 42cc and a 606 60 to 65cc to realese the hidden power in a 4 valve cylinder at least 80cc is needed, and since boost build ability is directly proportional to fueling u may have your problema there....
BTW the 6mm elemento is able of 90 to 100cc depending on the pump , whereas to say that at least 90cc will be at reach .
One turn in the ALDA screw wont afect much, expecially if the ALDA is not set properly, wich is very common ....
remove it or uncrew the bolt all the way (max fueling position), and then if u want to tune it come back here i´ll direct u.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(01-27-2016, 04:28 AM)barrote The deal with a 605/6 is the 6mm elements by itself can´t do nothing...(swaping the elements only will give u more 10% at the most)
U should be aware that a 603 uses with boost 40 to 42cc and a 606 60 to 65cc to realese the hidden power in a 4 valve cylinder at least 80cc is needed, and since boost build ability is directly proportional to fueling u may have your problema there....
BTW the 6mm elemento is able of 90 to 100cc depending on the pump , whereas to say that at least 90cc will be at reach .
One turn in the ALDA screw wont afect much, expecially if the ALDA is not set properly, wich is very common ....
remove it or uncrew the bolt all the way (max fueling position), and then if u want to tune it come back here i´ll direct u.
regards
Great thanks, My pump according to pump shop was calibrated to I think it was 70cc's same as original pump (that's what they told me anyway).
The screw on the ALDA is already all the way in, so possibly this could also be an issue. They added the ALDA since the original mechanical pump did not have one.
I'm beginning to mistrust the pump shop. I also found even after they refurbished the pump that the shut off valve was leaking and I could not turn the motor off. This should not have been the case if the refurbished the pump properly as they claimed.
Would be grateful for guidance to set up the ALDA, thank you.
(01-27-2016, 04:28 AM)barrote The deal with a 605/6 is the 6mm elements by itself can´t do nothing...(swaping the elements only will give u more 10% at the most)
U should be aware that a 603 uses with boost 40 to 42cc and a 606 60 to 65cc to realese the hidden power in a 4 valve cylinder at least 80cc is needed, and since boost build ability is directly proportional to fueling u may have your problema there....
BTW the 6mm elemento is able of 90 to 100cc depending on the pump , whereas to say that at least 90cc will be at reach .
One turn in the ALDA screw wont afect much, expecially if the ALDA is not set properly, wich is very common ....
remove it or uncrew the bolt all the way (max fueling position), and then if u want to tune it come back here i´ll direct u.
regards
Great thanks, My pump according to pump shop was calibrated to I think it was 70cc's same as original pump (that's what they told me anyway).
The screw on the ALDA is already all the way in, so possibly this could also be an issue. They added the ALDA since the original mechanical pump did not have one.
I'm beginning to mistrust the pump shop. I also found even after they refurbished the pump that the shut off valve was leaking and I could not turn the motor off. This should not have been the case if the refurbished the pump properly as they claimed.
Would be grateful for guidance to set up the ALDA, thank you.
The 606 max fueling is 62 to 65cc, with boost and only at 1000 pump RPM. this is directions for setting since the Governor is a EDC kind. when engine is running the computer takes care of it and i seriously dought that it ever uses 60cc.
The thing with the ALDA or ADA , wich are the same thing basically, is that if u turn the screw in all the way it will cut fuel by 10 to 15% compared to having it removed or with the screw all out!!! happens that sometimes is necessary to use shims in the capsule to be able to comply with the test sheet, another issue is that governors with ALDA have a Diff Spring size than governors with ADA, and if the Spring is not set correctly there it goes the ALDA cut off performance.
Remember the ALDA cust fuel when boost is not available, it is not the other way round!!!! thats why u can remove it out.
Once it is out , check for too much smoke when u floor the engine in neutral. In neutral the engine have to smoke a bit , but u should not be able to see it by the rw mirror. if u think the smoke is too much start pushing the screw in til u fel it disapears. compare the performance with boost and without bost.... if nothing happens trash the ALDA , is not doing nothing or is damaged .
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Something is not making sense here, did u had the 603 N/A or the 603 D35 td?
The 606 max fueling is 62 to 65cc, with boost and only at 1000 pump RPM. this is directions for setting since the Governor is a EDC kind. when engine is running the computer takes care of it and i seriously dought that it ever uses 60cc.
The thing with the ALDA or ADA , wich are the same thing basically, is that if u turn the screw in all the way it will cut fuel by 10 to 15% compared to having it removed or with the screw all out!!! happens that sometimes is necessary to use shims in the capsule to be able to comply with the test sheet, another issue is that governors with ALDA have a Diff Spring size than governors with ADA, and if the Spring is not set correctly there it goes the ALDA cut off performance.
Remember the ALDA cust fuel when boost is not available, it is not the other way round!!!! thats why u can remove it out.
Once it is out , check for too much smoke when u floor the engine in neutral. In neutral the engine have to smoke a bit , but u should not be able to see it by the rw mirror. if u think the smoke is too much start pushing the screw in til u fel it disapears. compare the performance with boost and without bost.... if nothing happens trash the ALDA , is not doing nothing or is damaged .
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
First I had an OM603 NA and then installed an OM606 TD. I got an extra pump with the motor but it was for a NA. The pump shop refurbished the pump by changing the elements and also adding the ALDA. So I have a mechanical pump with ALDA that was supposedly calibrated an ready to fit.
Tonight I started by turning the ALDA screw out by 2.5 turns, I.e the one turn I turned in plus another 1.5. In neutral the motor smoked a bit so I turned it in again by .5 an left it there. The difference is monumental. I will drive it like this and note the EGT's, boost, water temps an smoke. If all seems safe I will turn out .5 turn at a time. It is now definitely going way better than before but feel it still has a lot to give.
A big thank you for your reply. Will keep you updated.
Thank you for the advice
First I had an OM603 NA and then installed an OM606 TD. I got an extra pump with the motor but it was for a NA. The pump shop refurbished the pump by changing the elements and also adding the ALDA. So I have a mechanical pump with ALDA that was supposedly calibrated an ready to fit.
Tonight I started by turning the ALDA screw out by 2.5 turns, I.e the one turn I turned in plus another 1.5. In neutral the motor smoked a bit so I turned it in again by .5 an left it there. The difference is monumental. I will drive it like this and note the EGT's, boost, water temps an smoke. If all seems safe I will turn out .5 turn at a time. It is now definitely going way better than before but feel it still has a lot to give.
A big thank you for your reply. Will keep you updated.
just take it all out , my engine is running 7.5 with 120cc out of boost and is going for a long time now, and belive me it was a N/A then , run 100K on used veg and used engine oil, water álcool aviation fuel dadda everithing that burns and is still strong ....
its not your half 6mm pump that will make any harm...
any question just scream
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
no wories,
just take it all out , my engine is running 7.5 with 120cc out of boost and is going for a long time now, and belive me it was a N/A then , run 100K on used veg and used engine oil, water álcool aviation fuel dadda everithing that burns and is still strong ....
its not your half 6mm pump that will make any harm...
any question just scream
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Any suggestions? It is that standard turbo on the 606 with a pressure actuated wastegate. I must admit I have not yet checked it but don't suspect anything wrong since it starts to boost and then can go up to 1.1 bar.
ReGards
Ok, so I have turned out the screw another full turn. When standing idling and I suddenly give it full throttle it smokes black but when doing it reasonably it does not smoke. The car now goes even better, but I still only get boost when at 2500 - 2700 rpm.
Any suggestions? It is that standard turbo on the 606 with a pressure actuated wastegate. I must admit I have not yet checked it but don't suspect anything wrong since it starts to boost and then can go up to 1.1 bar.
ReGards
probably something is impeding closing of the waste gate, try direct conection and then we´ll se about it ...
the simptom with described above , relates to a defective ALDA... no problema not having it working , leave it as is with the screw all out.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
conect the pneumatic actuator to a source of vacum and give it a try.... then report back
probably something is impeding closing of the waste gate, try direct conection and then we´ll se about it ...
the simptom with described above , relates to a defective ALDA... no problema not having it working , leave it as is with the screw all out.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
So it seems the boost does start at about 2000rpm although very low. It then builds up and can go as high as 1 - 1.2 bar. Unfortunately for some reason the electronic boost pressure stopped working and is bouncing all over the place to the extent that I switched it off. It can't be an earthing problem as I made sure there was a proper earth and also measured it.
I have now in total turned out the ALDA screw by 1.25 turns and it seems good. Minimal smoke but also power when I pull off. Haven't managed to check timing but will get to that.
A more serious and intermittent problem is that the motor sometimes dies just before a stop when one is busy gearing down and coasting. I'm not sure what could cause that but it is as if it suddenly was switched off. I can the immediately restart it without any issues. Any ideas where to start looking?
ReGards
Alan
OK over the weekend I connected the waste gate to a vacuum to suck it closed. I also connected a traditional mechanical boost pressure gauge to double check the electronic one.
So it seems the boost does start at about 2000rpm although very low. It then builds up and can go as high as 1 - 1.2 bar. Unfortunately for some reason the electronic boost pressure stopped working and is bouncing all over the place to the extent that I switched it off. It can't be an earthing problem as I made sure there was a proper earth and also measured it.
I have now in total turned out the ALDA screw by 1.25 turns and it seems good. Minimal smoke but also power when I pull off. Haven't managed to check timing but will get to that.
A more serious and intermittent problem is that the motor sometimes dies just before a stop when one is busy gearing down and coasting. I'm not sure what could cause that but it is as if it suddenly was switched off. I can the immediately restart it without any issues. Any ideas where to start looking?
ReGards
Alan
The engine should not die like that , unless a vac leak is doing that, but u´re using the stop key wich already existed in the car?
how´s the idle behaving , RPM and reaction ? does it fall from idle when turning the wheel against the stop? how does it fall when coasting dwn? does it falls abruptly and then regain ?
Reading up above it came to my mind that u may have issues with the WOT position.... if that is the think then u´r lack of power is explained...
use a brick in the thr pedal, watch if the pump is at WOT, usually the pump is in a phisical stop , wich is a hexagon bolt head.
if it is stoped there, there´s no problema with the WOT thing, but sure u can remove that bolt out and like this u will gain a bit of fueling .
that bit might solve things out
report back
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
mr Alan ,
The engine should not die like that , unless a vac leak is doing that, but u´re using the stop key wich already existed in the car?
how´s the idle behaving , RPM and reaction ? does it fall from idle when turning the wheel against the stop? how does it fall when coasting dwn? does it falls abruptly and then regain ?
Reading up above it came to my mind that u may have issues with the WOT position.... if that is the think then u´r lack of power is explained...
use a brick in the thr pedal, watch if the pump is at WOT, usually the pump is in a phisical stop , wich is a hexagon bolt head.
if it is stoped there, there´s no problema with the WOT thing, but sure u can remove that bolt out and like this u will gain a bit of fueling .
that bit might solve things out
report back
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
WOT seems to be OK but I will make 100 % sure.
It runs beautifully but I must admit that when one depressed the clutch and watches the rev counter one can see it drops to below 500 and then picks up again and idles at 500 rpm. Bear in mind that this pump was recalibrated by our most reputable Bosch dealer and the only changes I made are to the ALDA screw and I replaced the shut off valve because the previous one had a leak and would not shut down the engine.
I must add that I'm not sure how accurate my rev counter is since I have previously observed a rpm drop when switching on lights. That was with the previous engine and light switch, both of which are now replaced.
I appreciate your help. Thanks.
Thank you for your reply and patience.
WOT seems to be OK but I will make 100 % sure.
It runs beautifully but I must admit that when one depressed the clutch and watches the rev counter one can see it drops to below 500 and then picks up again and idles at 500 rpm. Bear in mind that this pump was recalibrated by our most reputable Bosch dealer and the only changes I made are to the ALDA screw and I replaced the shut off valve because the previous one had a leak and would not shut down the engine.
I must add that I'm not sure how accurate my rev counter is since I have previously observed a rpm drop when switching on lights. That was with the previous engine and light switch, both of which are now replaced.
I appreciate your help. Thanks.
the problem is the idle quality and quantity and deceleration behaviour tells a lot about the way the governor was set....
but who a´m i to weaven such considerations , the late boost is related to all that , timing and some other needs , and in the end fuel but i belive u can live with that til u find enough rand to buy one buy one pump from europe.
regards
try that think with the thr ... usually increases a bit the fueling in WOT.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
if i were u , take the pup out and toss them in the shop ,since the shop has that degree of reputation , they may know that the idle of that engine is at least 290RMP, and 290 gives 580 in the engine , this is the minimum RPM . good rpm´s are 600 to 660.
the problem is the idle quality and quantity and deceleration behaviour tells a lot about the way the governor was set....
but who a´m i to weaven such considerations , the late boost is related to all that , timing and some other needs , and in the end fuel but i belive u can live with that til u find enough rand to buy one buy one pump from europe.
regards
try that think with the thr ... usually increases a bit the fueling in WOT.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I would love to get a Dieselmeken pump, but first our government has to shape up to get our R to strengthen again.
ReGards
The amount of sh1t I have had with this pump is unbelieveable. Unfortunately it was the only reputable shop I could find. I have since found another but that is about 150km from where I am. I will make a plan to get the pump there for checking.
I would love to get a Dieselmeken pump, but first our government has to shape up to get our R to strengthen again.
ReGards
specially if the shop does not install them, and the installer has very few notions of it, is like swiss clocksmith...
but sure u can try ....
try to have the idle increased to 600 RPM with the engine firing one cylinder after the other making the caracteristic rrrrr , instead of rrt rrt rrt . u can do that by turning the idle adjust screw out of the governor , turn it out to increase , in to decrease.
then u watch how it does react to using the steering wheel. RPM should maintain and be Kostant .... watch engine coasting dwn , thr it up to 5k and then watch how it does decrease... if it does not decrease u have to turn the idle damper screw out , wich is inside the governor...
report back and we folow from here .
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
the right pump for that engine is a PES6M55C320RS204, all others 6 cyl they do the job but they are dificult to tune.....
specially if the shop does not install them, and the installer has very few notions of it, is like swiss clocksmith...
but sure u can try ....
try to have the idle increased to 600 RPM with the engine firing one cylinder after the other making the caracteristic rrrrr , instead of rrt rrt rrt . u can do that by turning the idle adjust screw out of the governor , turn it out to increase , in to decrease.
then u watch how it does react to using the steering wheel. RPM should maintain and be Kostant .... watch engine coasting dwn , thr it up to 5k and then watch how it does decrease... if it does not decrease u have to turn the idle damper screw out , wich is inside the governor...
report back and we folow from here .
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
When I had the inlet manifold off I first checked the timing that the motor was now running at. This was the best I could do with the amount of pump adjustment available.
It took some time since I had to find where the timing mark was showing in the middle of the inspection hole. In the end I had it and read the degrees of the timing mark. Shock and horror it showed my motor is timed at 5deg ATDC.
I was absolutely sure I did set it to 16deg ATDC initially. But when I eventually got it running I tuned it by ear and watching the white smoke on the exhaust. I did this by advancing/retarding the pump until it ran smooth and there was minimal smoke. I drove it like that for 1000km and thought is was good but obviously was slightly disappointed with the performance especially in the low RPM range.
So after I established the motor runs at 5deg ATDC as indicated I suspected the chain has slipped a tooth and then checked the crank and cam timing. Both were spot on.
So now what could be the issue? Is it possible that the pump has been set up incorrectly?
I have spoken to the shop that rebuilt the pump an they are prepared to check it out, but I don't want to make a fool out of myself if it is not the pump.
I'm only a hobby mechanic and learning a lot but here I'm out of my depth to know what could be the problem.
Regards,
Ok, so after the last replies I decided to check everything again.
When I had the inlet manifold off I first checked the timing that the motor was now running at. This was the best I could do with the amount of pump adjustment available.
It took some time since I had to find where the timing mark was showing in the middle of the inspection hole. In the end I had it and read the degrees of the timing mark. Shock and horror it showed my motor is timed at 5deg ATDC.
I was absolutely sure I did set it to 16deg ATDC initially. But when I eventually got it running I tuned it by ear and watching the white smoke on the exhaust. I did this by advancing/retarding the pump until it ran smooth and there was minimal smoke. I drove it like that for 1000km and thought is was good but obviously was slightly disappointed with the performance especially in the low RPM range.
So after I established the motor runs at 5deg ATDC as indicated I suspected the chain has slipped a tooth and then checked the crank and cam timing. Both were spot on.
So now what could be the issue? Is it possible that the pump has been set up incorrectly?
I have spoken to the shop that rebuilt the pump an they are prepared to check it out, but I don't want to make a fool out of myself if it is not the pump.
I'm only a hobby mechanic and learning a lot but here I'm out of my depth to know what could be the problem.
Regards,
the most common error is istalling the pump 180º apart , but like this it does not fire. the second most common error is rotating the engine backwars, wich will lead to whatever u found out.
the sprocket holder alow u to remove the pump without removing the tensioner , and maintain the the advance mechanism in place. the locking tool is to lock the pump in the right place, right timing.
if u dont have this tools , u got to find a way of securing the sprocket in place , fab a hard wood tool for it, or u can use a screw driver to lock it against the chain cover, block what ever ....
to lock the pump u can use a round metal strip , with a transversal cut that chims in the tongue, u can hold that bit in place with the 17 nut cover. after u assemble the pump u can remove it, beaware that what ever u use to secure that must slip out easily.
first of all u must check with the pump shop where did they set the start of injection , usually should be something like 18.5º , with the start of injection at 18.5 the engine is set at 14.5 ATDC, when looking at the puley u have OT at the left and the pointer in the 14.5º ATDC.
after this is done , u turn the engine 360º and check that the tongue is at the center of the visit window, and the puley reads between 12.5 and 14.5. once u have this u´re done.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
the thing is that u need speciall tools to install the pump!!!! the advance mechanism gear holder and the pump locking tool, all the rest are comon tools , but this does not mean u can´t assemble the pump without them!!!!
the most common error is istalling the pump 180º apart , but like this it does not fire. the second most common error is rotating the engine backwars, wich will lead to whatever u found out.
the sprocket holder alow u to remove the pump without removing the tensioner , and maintain the the advance mechanism in place. the locking tool is to lock the pump in the right place, right timing.
if u dont have this tools , u got to find a way of securing the sprocket in place , fab a hard wood tool for it, or u can use a screw driver to lock it against the chain cover, block what ever ....
to lock the pump u can use a round metal strip , with a transversal cut that chims in the tongue, u can hold that bit in place with the 17 nut cover. after u assemble the pump u can remove it, beaware that what ever u use to secure that must slip out easily.
first of all u must check with the pump shop where did they set the start of injection , usually should be something like 18.5º , with the start of injection at 18.5 the engine is set at 14.5 ATDC, when looking at the puley u have OT at the left and the pointer in the 14.5º ATDC.
after this is done , u turn the engine 360º and check that the tongue is at the center of the visit window, and the puley reads between 12.5 and 14.5. once u have this u´re done.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I get what you are saying and already have a locking tool for the pump. The sprocket I keep in place with a piece of wood so happy there as well.
As it is I can set the timing to 15ATDC or whatever is required. I then turn the motor a couple of turns and recheck the timing and it is OK every time. I turn the motor clockwise looking from the front which is also the direction the motor runs.
If I start the motor it runs but badly and if, after running it a couple of seconds stop it and recheck the timing it is still at the setting I set up.
I can get the motor to run smooth but it then indicates that the timing is at about 4-5 deg.
BUT, what you say about the pump shop setting start of injection is what interests me. Tis is something I cannot check? or change. I will now remove the pump and have it set at 18.5 deg.
Quote:
"with the start of injection at 18.5 the engine is set at 14.5 ATDC, when looking at the puley u have OT at the left and the pointer in the 14.5º ATDC."
Not sure I understand this correctly. What I understand from this is that if the pump was set correctly at 18.5 deg, and I set the timing at 14.5 ATDC then I would see the tab inside the pump (the one that is also used to lock the pump). Not sure what you mean with u have OT at the left and the pointer at the 14.5º ATDC. So I made a quick reference how I timed it.
This side is ATC 15 OT BTC ---------> direction when turning
|_/
40 | | | 30 | | | 20 | | | 10 | | | OT | | | 10 | | | 20 | | | 30 | | | 40
Regards,
Hi Barrote,
I get what you are saying and already have a locking tool for the pump. The sprocket I keep in place with a piece of wood so happy there as well.
As it is I can set the timing to 15ATDC or whatever is required. I then turn the motor a couple of turns and recheck the timing and it is OK every time. I turn the motor clockwise looking from the front which is also the direction the motor runs.
If I start the motor it runs but badly and if, after running it a couple of seconds stop it and recheck the timing it is still at the setting I set up.
I can get the motor to run smooth but it then indicates that the timing is at about 4-5 deg.
BUT, what you say about the pump shop setting start of injection is what interests me. Tis is something I cannot check? or change. I will now remove the pump and have it set at 18.5 deg.
Quote:
"with the start of injection at 18.5 the engine is set at 14.5 ATDC, when looking at the puley u have OT at the left and the pointer in the 14.5º ATDC."
Not sure I understand this correctly. What I understand from this is that if the pump was set correctly at 18.5 deg, and I set the timing at 14.5 ATDC then I would see the tab inside the pump (the one that is also used to lock the pump). Not sure what you mean with u have OT at the left and the pointer at the 14.5º ATDC. So I made a quick reference how I timed it.
This side is ATC 15 OT BTC ---------> direction when turning
|_/
40 | | | 30 | | | 20 | | | 10 | | | OT | | | 10 | | | 20 | | | 30 | | | 40
Regards,
enough to run more or less smooth !!! happens that the 4 valve MB engine when is at the right spot idle RPM tends to increase about 20/30
compared to advanced or retarded.
another thing that happens a lot with 4 valve engines is bad shape injectors and damaged pre cups, wich is noticed by ratling and nailing noises , along with dificult smooth running.
have the injectors out , clean them check the spray patern, repop at 150bar, inspect the ball inside the pre chambers , if u find something strange like ball missing or when beated sounds like loose, have chambers checked, and reconditioned.
u know u might have just a bug in the IP , or just a bug in somewhere..... have a vídeo done , will help
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hy there , preciselly what i meant, if the pump start of injection was set correctly u should have the engine timmed , more or less degree.
enough to run more or less smooth !!! happens that the 4 valve MB engine when is at the right spot idle RPM tends to increase about 20/30
compared to advanced or retarded.
another thing that happens a lot with 4 valve engines is bad shape injectors and damaged pre cups, wich is noticed by ratling and nailing noises , along with dificult smooth running.
have the injectors out , clean them check the spray patern, repop at 150bar, inspect the ball inside the pre chambers , if u find something strange like ball missing or when beated sounds like loose, have chambers checked, and reconditioned.
u know u might have just a bug in the IP , or just a bug in somewhere..... have a vídeo done , will help
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I don't think there is anything wrong with injectors or precups. I have new nozzles and although not set to 150bar pop pressure they are set as per standard 135bar. I can change that later. When the motor is running it makes no strange noises either. It is just that when the timing is set at 15 it does not run well. When adjusting the timing until it runs without smoking and smooth and one double checks the timing it sits at about 5 deg.
Since I confirmed the crank and cam are in sync my only deduction is that there is something not set correctly in the pump itself.
I will attach a video that I took tonight.
Ok managed before.
https://youtu.be/u9-g3cyVX1c
In this video the pump is timed at 15deATDC. The motor is started and runs at 15ATC albeit not smooth. Then I adjust the pump while running until the smoiking gets less and the motor runs smooth. If I then check the timing backwards i.e. I look at the lock mark inside the pump and then read off the deg it sits at 5ATDC. If I could adjust it more it would possibly even run better, point is it should be 15ATDC and run well.
Thank you for the reply.
I don't think there is anything wrong with injectors or precups. I have new nozzles and although not set to 150bar pop pressure they are set as per standard 135bar. I can change that later. When the motor is running it makes no strange noises either. It is just that when the timing is set at 15 it does not run well. When adjusting the timing until it runs without smoking and smooth and one double checks the timing it sits at about 5 deg.
Since I confirmed the crank and cam are in sync my only deduction is that there is something not set correctly in the pump itself.
I will attach a video that I took tonight.
Ok managed before.
https://youtu.be/u9-g3cyVX1c
In this video the pump is timed at 15deATDC. The motor is started and runs at 15ATC albeit not smooth. Then I adjust the pump while running until the smoiking gets less and the motor runs smooth. If I then check the timing backwards i.e. I look at the lock mark inside the pump and then read off the deg it sits at 5ATDC. If I could adjust it more it would possibly even run better, point is it should be 15ATDC and run well.
As said before many things can happen that will influence the diesel engine stock tune.
Usually a good set up pump will mask a worn out engine, but the oposite is not true!!!
The fact that u describe with the timing is quite common, why , because the pump start of injection is a phisicall thing , but the way u install the lock tongue has a lot to doo with the tecnique aplied by the man in the shop. a slight 3º slip when tighting is enough to read 12º diff when installing the pump. thats why the lock tool alow u to install the pump a start the engine, timing by MB is using the stroboscopic light device, and is suposed to be at 18º in the box.
The pumps , there are only 2 of the most importante things when dealing with the M, one is element balance, this mean that every element start delivering at the same distance , in the 6 cylinder every 120º engine rotation or 60º seing at the pump , more less 0,2º!!! the other one is pump sincronization, wich mean that at X rack all element pump out the same omount of fuel, as na exemple in idle setting at 8mm rack the output must be 0,7cc every 1000 strokes , all 6 elements have to be in the 0,7/0,8 otherwise the idle quality and aceleration wont be smoth at all , why some of the cylinders may take all the load, so the engine comes erratic.
same happens for the balance, a good balance pump has a smoth ride and powerfull.
most shops can´t deal with this , some don´t know the procedure , others dont have the hardware to do it. and others dont pay atention to it!!!
basically thats why a superpump is so expensive, everithing must be as a super ....
the governor seting , is not so importante as the pump assembly , if the governor is set wrong the engine wont behave like it should....
it may runaway , it may not return to iidle fast , it may not idle at all , it may random idle so many....
about the vídeo , in the beguinning the engine is too advanced, in the end of vídeo is ok, but idle is erratic, is rrggrrggrrrgg , thats not it
it should be rrrrrrrrrrrr, and 660RPM 700max.
i think the idle position is out of place , but i hope its not.
why does the engine does not idle alone? it should idle even if cold and that much advanced
when u turn the pump when the engine is at time , the idle increase a litle...regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hello Jambo,
As said before many things can happen that will influence the diesel engine stock tune.
Usually a good set up pump will mask a worn out engine, but the oposite is not true!!!
The fact that u describe with the timing is quite common, why , because the pump start of injection is a phisicall thing , but the way u install the lock tongue has a lot to doo with the tecnique aplied by the man in the shop. a slight 3º slip when tighting is enough to read 12º diff when installing the pump. thats why the lock tool alow u to install the pump a start the engine, timing by MB is using the stroboscopic light device, and is suposed to be at 18º in the box.
The pumps , there are only 2 of the most importante things when dealing with the M, one is element balance, this mean that every element start delivering at the same distance , in the 6 cylinder every 120º engine rotation or 60º seing at the pump , more less 0,2º!!! the other one is pump sincronization, wich mean that at X rack all element pump out the same omount of fuel, as na exemple in idle setting at 8mm rack the output must be 0,7cc every 1000 strokes , all 6 elements have to be in the 0,7/0,8 otherwise the idle quality and aceleration wont be smoth at all , why some of the cylinders may take all the load, so the engine comes erratic.
same happens for the balance, a good balance pump has a smoth ride and powerfull.
most shops can´t deal with this , some don´t know the procedure , others dont have the hardware to do it. and others dont pay atention to it!!!
basically thats why a superpump is so expensive, everithing must be as a super ....
the governor seting , is not so importante as the pump assembly , if the governor is set wrong the engine wont behave like it should....
it may runaway , it may not return to iidle fast , it may not idle at all , it may random idle so many....
about the vídeo , in the beguinning the engine is too advanced, in the end of vídeo is ok, but idle is erratic, is rrggrrggrrrgg , thats not it
it should be rrrrrrrrrrrr, and 660RPM 700max.
i think the idle position is out of place , but i hope its not.
why does the engine does not idle alone? it should idle even if cold and that much advanced when u turn the pump when the engine is at time , the idle increase a litle...
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I have removed the pump again and will take it back an also ask for a calibration certificate.
In the video when the engine starts it is set at 15deATDC the I adjusted it and the idle picks up and stops smoking.... When I then check at what timing it is it shows about 5degATDC.
The idle is only 500 and that will be sorted hopefully tomorrow.
I will also go to the length to remove the #1 injector and prechamber to test if the crank is at TDC when it shows TDC. I believe the timing mark is adjustable and maybe it is wrong and my crank and cam are out by a tooth?
Anyway I will report back once I have the pump back and checked TDC of crank/piston.
Hi Barrote,
I have removed the pump again and will take it back an also ask for a calibration certificate.
In the video when the engine starts it is set at 15deATDC the I adjusted it and the idle picks up and stops smoking.... When I then check at what timing it is it shows about 5degATDC.
The idle is only 500 and that will be sorted hopefully tomorrow.
I will also go to the length to remove the #1 injector and prechamber to test if the crank is at TDC when it shows TDC. I believe the timing mark is adjustable and maybe it is wrong and my crank and cam are out by a tooth?
Anyway I will report back once I have the pump back and checked TDC of crank/piston.
the timing maters litle , no engine will read 14.5º !!! some read 12.5 and some 5 , most read something around 10 and 16 .
what u could do is to check cam timing against crankshaft timing, i seriously dought the crank puley is out of timme, anyway doing such a check with the head in , is not a good idea.....
and about the pump, it might happen that the pump shop had done a good job!!!
when u have a PES6M55C320RS203, wich belong to a 4 valve engine, people look at the tuning tables and set it with stock specs and having 5.5 or 6 mm elemento maters litle!!! but when u have a PES6M55C320RS159 or such the tunning tables belong to a 2 valve engine wich have diff setings and they dont work well in the 4 valve.
usually when i do this type of pumps i just forguet about specs and go on my own... very often works great......
irespective of all this a 606 is not so diferente from the 603, were it can grow is another matter, basically i need to provide it with fuel and air....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hey hey , no need of such drastic measures ....
the timing maters litle , no engine will read 14.5º !!! some read 12.5 and some 5 , most read something around 10 and 16 .
what u could do is to check cam timing against crankshaft timing, i seriously dought the crank puley is out of timme, anyway doing such a check with the head in , is not a good idea.....
and about the pump, it might happen that the pump shop had done a good job!!!
when u have a PES6M55C320RS203, wich belong to a 4 valve engine, people look at the tuning tables and set it with stock specs and having 5.5 or 6 mm elemento maters litle!!! but when u have a PES6M55C320RS159 or such the tunning tables belong to a 2 valve engine wich have diff setings and they dont work well in the 4 valve.
usually when i do this type of pumps i just forguet about specs and go on my own... very often works great......
irespective of all this a 606 is not so diferente from the 603, were it can grow is another matter, basically i need to provide it with fuel and air....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I see they tested with pop pressure of 150 Bar, I will have to get my injectors set to 150, currently 135bar. Is the 17 deg after correct?
Ok got the pump back, it was not set as I thought. Anyway here the report, hope it sheds some light. I have not yet installed the pump but will do that Saturday morning.
I see they tested with pop pressure of 150 Bar, I will have to get my injectors set to 150, currently 135bar. Is the 17 deg after correct?
but this is how i make pumps for the 606.
in a pump like this with 6mm elements i can set it to deliver 90/100cc with boost.... something that they only extracted 70 cc with boost , but that is why we do almost superpumps for all over the place.
i´m afraid u can´t release the horses with that amount , engine will be more alive than a 603, but nothing remarkable.....
is missing data on cylinder balance and syncronization, we assume that they did it right ... there´s no reason why not...
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
all the numbers seems to be correct, from that paper just a small detail with the idle recovery, wich need to be around 15 to 20cc at 290rpm , and complete cut off at 350 rpm . something in that área , but like it is is not bad as long as it idle´s good and with quality.
but this is how i make pumps for the 606.
in a pump like this with 6mm elements i can set it to deliver 90/100cc with boost.... something that they only extracted 70 cc with boost , but that is why we do almost superpumps for all over the place.
i´m afraid u can´t release the horses with that amount , engine will be more alive than a 603, but nothing remarkable.....
is missing data on cylinder balance and syncronization, we assume that they did it right ... there´s no reason why not...
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Just not sure yet if the timing marks will be aligned when motor running correctly.
They were not prepared to give me more cc's and showed me where I could set it myself. Should I maybe do it from the beginning? It will definitely be easier to do when the pump is still not fitted. How many turns and which direction?
ReGards,
That's good news thanks.
Just not sure yet if the timing marks will be aligned when motor running correctly.
They were not prepared to give me more cc's and showed me where I could set it myself. Should I maybe do it from the beginning? It will definitely be easier to do when the pump is still not fitted. How many turns and which direction?
ReGards,
hehe, that does not work like that , or at least not so simple as turning a screw
U make sure the pump works properly as it is and then we can discuss how much u can turn and wich direction, wich is not any secret thow.
U must realize that turning that screw out , will tend to increase rack position limit , wereas to say increase fuel.... but the governor balance may be lost, and depending how much they used the torque capsule to correct the idle, u may gain nothing...... and loose the governor balance, and after that u´r F/&% with capitalls .
So basically , is up to u but u shouldn´t do nothing now, assemble the pump have the engine running and then, u can play with the screw´s , write down everithing u say, use half turns all the time , so that u can revert to the begining.
If u have the rack at idle with 6.5mm it may be possible to extract the 90cc out off that thing!!!! tuning in the engine of course....
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Hello Jambo,
hehe, that does not work like that , or at least not so simple as turning a screw
U make sure the pump works properly as it is and then we can discuss how much u can turn and wich direction, wich is not any secret thow.
U must realize that turning that screw out , will tend to increase rack position limit , wereas to say increase fuel.... but the governor balance may be lost, and depending how much they used the torque capsule to correct the idle, u may gain nothing...... and loose the governor balance, and after that u´r F/&% with capitalls .
So basically , is up to u but u shouldn´t do nothing now, assemble the pump have the engine running and then, u can play with the screw´s , write down everithing u say, use half turns all the time , so that u can revert to the begining.
If u have the rack at idle with 6.5mm it may be possible to extract the 90cc out off that thing!!!! tuning in the engine of course....
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Well 70cc should be just fine for reaching and slightly exceeding stock om606 power, besides adding more fuel at full boost won't solve the off boost issues. Barrote am i correct in thinking that if he turns the full load screw out for more fuel he should also turn the top right screw, the minimum throttle input stop out otherwise he will have increased idle speed and slow return to idle ?
depend how the pump builder regulated idle , if it was within bosch specs idle at 6,7mm rack u should expect that ....
but if it just did not touch the idle position, installing wider elements may increase idle quantity leading to another idle rack position , if u can see what i mean. idle governor balance will be afected , sometimes to correct this the tq capsule is the best choice... wrong procedure , after that increasing the max load screw wont increase output without changing idle caractheristics.... after that maybe necessary to revert the balance using the both screw´s tq capsule and idle adjustment and thr screw is just to push the Spring in or out.
if u have a virgin governor , and imagining u can balance the pump and sincronize the elements , once u set idle quantity at 6,7mm rack u might turn the mentioned screw all the way out and maybe u reach 21mm rack, without afecting idle quality
even the bench tester does not tell u how fast or if it reverts to idle at all , maybe with a nice technique u may watch (high and low) idle recovery wich is a good indication of the returning speed.
but i would be very interested to hear other aproaches ....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
may not help at all...
depend how the pump builder regulated idle , if it was within bosch specs idle at 6,7mm rack u should expect that ....
but if it just did not touch the idle position, installing wider elements may increase idle quantity leading to another idle rack position , if u can see what i mean. idle governor balance will be afected , sometimes to correct this the tq capsule is the best choice... wrong procedure , after that increasing the max load screw wont increase output without changing idle caractheristics.... after that maybe necessary to revert the balance using the both screw´s tq capsule and idle adjustment and thr screw is just to push the Spring in or out.
if u have a virgin governor , and imagining u can balance the pump and sincronize the elements , once u set idle quantity at 6,7mm rack u might turn the mentioned screw all the way out and maybe u reach 21mm rack, without afecting idle quality
even the bench tester does not tell u how fast or if it reverts to idle at all , maybe with a nice technique u may watch (high and low) idle recovery wich is a good indication of the returning speed.
but i would be very interested to hear other aproaches ....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
This time I inserted the pump so that I have the whole adjustment range towards the motor. Started motor and it started with a sort of backfire but it ran. Started adjusting pump timing towards engine and stopped when it sounded the best and was most responsive. Stopped motor and double checked where the timing was now set. hahahahaha now at TDC.
I really believe the pumpshop is incapable or they read the specs wrong. Left it like that as there is no more time to fartarse around before I go on holiday to Namibia to tackle the dunes.
I took it for a spin and she pulls OK. Black smoke pumping but I adjusted the ALDA so that there is minimal smoke. EGT's are amazingly low, when pushing the max I recorded was 556 deg. The probe sits in the cover that blanks off the EGR so directly after cyl # 6 outlet.
I checked my old electronic injection pump which is in pieces to see if there is a way the pumpshop can stuff up the timing and found, it could quite easily happen since the lock tab is ona plate that can rotate and needs to be fixed in position. Can add pictures later.
Well, I installed the pump again as per usual and set it to 15 ATDC.
This time I inserted the pump so that I have the whole adjustment range towards the motor. Started motor and it started with a sort of backfire but it ran. Started adjusting pump timing towards engine and stopped when it sounded the best and was most responsive. Stopped motor and double checked where the timing was now set. hahahahaha now at TDC.
I really believe the pumpshop is incapable or they read the specs wrong. Left it like that as there is no more time to fartarse around before I go on holiday to Namibia to tackle the dunes.
I took it for a spin and she pulls OK. Black smoke pumping but I adjusted the ALDA so that there is minimal smoke. EGT's are amazingly low, when pushing the max I recorded was 556 deg. The probe sits in the cover that blanks off the EGR so directly after cyl # 6 outlet.
I checked my old electronic injection pump which is in pieces to see if there is a way the pumpshop can stuff up the timing and found, it could quite easily happen since the lock tab is ona plate that can rotate and needs to be fixed in position. Can add pictures later.
When seting the ALDA u mast make sure it cuts by the minimum, whereas to say that when with boost it alows the max to come to life.... smoke well na engine like that with 6mil wont smoke bad
))there are 2 procedures to lock the timing tab, the bosch recomended one, u need the bench tester to produce at least 30BAR output oil test to chech start of injection , very few benches have that ability. or electronic check start of delivery. even more rare.
the other one is the drip method , wich if not well done is prone to misshaps, like yours.....
good luck with it , and good vacations
btw egt probe should be just before gas enters turbine , in order to check on the average temp.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
how´s the idle going?
When seting the ALDA u mast make sure it cuts by the minimum, whereas to say that when with boost it alows the max to come to life.... smoke well na engine like that with 6mil wont smoke bad ))
there are 2 procedures to lock the timing tab, the bosch recomended one, u need the bench tester to produce at least 30BAR output oil test to chech start of injection , very few benches have that ability. or electronic check start of delivery. even more rare.
the other one is the drip method , wich if not well done is prone to misshaps, like yours.....
good luck with it , and good vacations
btw egt probe should be just before gas enters turbine , in order to check on the average temp.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I will first add some oil today since it lost a lot of oil when setting timing over and over. Then I will drive it, but for starters the ideling is now set to about 630rpm. She is smooth but I will drive it for the next two weeks to see if anything else crops up. Hopefully not so I can have a peaceful holiday. :-)
PS. I had the EGT probe after the turbo at first and thought I need to move it closer to the outlets, this was the only practical spot. But I can confirm that the temps are very similar although I expected them to be higher now, but then again I am mostly reading a single cylinder now.
Thanks for the reply barrote,
I will first add some oil today since it lost a lot of oil when setting timing over and over. Then I will drive it, but for starters the ideling is now set to about 630rpm. She is smooth but I will drive it for the next two weeks to see if anything else crops up. Hopefully not so I can have a peaceful holiday. :-)
PS. I had the EGT probe after the turbo at first and thought I need to move it closer to the outlets, this was the only practical spot. But I can confirm that the temps are very similar although I expected them to be higher now, but then again I am mostly reading a single cylinder now.
(02-15-2016, 12:19 AM)Jambo OK, time for an update.
I did not have time to do everything I wanted so did a 4000km trip to the Namibian dunes as is. The G was very heavy on diesel but performed OK but not what I expected.
On my return I checked the vehicle over and found a few issues including engine mount that got crispy due to excessive heat from turbo/exhaust. EGT sensor was faulty and a few other items.
While attending to these I sent the turbo for refurbishment and checking. Although it did not look bad the refurb made a huge difference. Boost is now from 2k rpm and goes up quite nicely. Had I known I would have done this before the trip.
Once my charge cooler is set up I will tend to the IP again.
(02-15-2016, 12:19 AM)Jambo OK, time for an update.
I did not have time to do everything I wanted so did a 4000km trip to the Namibian dunes as is. The G was very heavy on diesel but performed OK but not what I expected.
On my return I checked the vehicle over and found a few issues including engine mount that got crispy due to excessive heat from turbo/exhaust. EGT sensor was faulty and a few other items.
While attending to these I sent the turbo for refurbishment and checking. Although it did not look bad the refurb made a huge difference. Boost is now from 2k rpm and goes up quite nicely. Had I known I would have done this before the trip.
Once my charge cooler is set up I will tend to the IP again.
Mine spools a bit late also with the 6mm M and stock turbo, so thanks for posting your progress.
atypicalguy
05-11-2016, 01:54 AM #36I think a boost leak would also delay spool. And rebuilding the turbo may have fixed a leaky wastegate.
Mine spools a bit late also with the 6mm M and stock turbo, so thanks for posting your progress.
Mine spools at about 2200 with the 6mm M and stock turbo. I still feel it should do better. Thanks for posting your results; a better turbo would almost certainly be an improvement as turbine designs have changed a lot.
atypicalguy
05-11-2016, 05:10 PM #37I think a boost leak would also delay spool. And rebuilding the turbo may have fixed a leaky wastegate.
Mine spools at about 2200 with the 6mm M and stock turbo. I still feel it should do better. Thanks for posting your results; a better turbo would almost certainly be an improvement as turbine designs have changed a lot.
I have now got the water/air charge cooler fitted and so far it seems to to the job. Have not had time or opportunity to test it properly, but I have not managed to go over 650deg. C. Motor starts beautifully and performs well. My biggest issue at this stage would be my gearing. Having 5.28 diffs is not ideal. I could overcome this though by installing a transfer case with the 0.8:1 gearing used in other G's. Unfortunately I cannot find one.
I read on another thread here that someone has low EGT's. I had a similar problem but a longer probe that actually goes into the exhaust gasses solved that. My EGT probe is fitted in the blanking plate at the rear of the manifold where the EGR pipe was connected. Probe was 50mm long but is now 100mm.
For my charge cooler I have also installed a setrab cooler under the engine above the bash plate in the same manner as the tranny oil cooler is installed in the G500. A Bosch pump circulates the coolant.
Ok, I'm due for an update.
I have now got the water/air charge cooler fitted and so far it seems to to the job. Have not had time or opportunity to test it properly, but I have not managed to go over 650deg. C. Motor starts beautifully and performs well. My biggest issue at this stage would be my gearing. Having 5.28 diffs is not ideal. I could overcome this though by installing a transfer case with the 0.8:1 gearing used in other G's. Unfortunately I cannot find one.
I read on another thread here that someone has low EGT's. I had a similar problem but a longer probe that actually goes into the exhaust gasses solved that. My EGT probe is fitted in the blanking plate at the rear of the manifold where the EGR pipe was connected. Probe was 50mm long but is now 100mm.
For my charge cooler I have also installed a setrab cooler under the engine above the bash plate in the same manner as the tranny oil cooler is installed in the G500. A Bosch pump circulates the coolant.
3 Guest(s)
3 Guest(s)