Mild tuning of OM605 Turbo with electric pump and 722.6 transmission
Mild tuning of OM605 Turbo with electric pump and 722.6 transmission
I live in Pembrokeshire West Wales, UK.
I'm 26 and have been into mechanical stuff since I was 10 or 11 where I started with motorbikes.
I bought a C250 TD sport auto estate when I was 22 and it's been a great car having covered over 80,000 miles on pure waste cooking oil. I've got a water injection kit on there to stop the rings gumming up. It's a wicked surf wagon... basically no fuel cost to go surfing etc, throw the boards in the back... use extra waxoyl to slow the rust down!
Anyway, back to topic. I have another C250 TD Sport auto estate which only has 118k miles on the clock and is very tidy. I'm intending on putting it on the road in the summer and retiring my daily driver which has 233k miles on it.
I want to increase the power to 200bhp, perhaps up to 220bhp without spending more than a few hundred £s.
I realise this has probably been covered before somewhere though I'm unable to find where. Most OM605 tuning threads involve an expensive mechanical pump, an equally expensive controller if the 722.6 box is involved, large turbos etc etc.
The highest power remap commonly available is the Superchip at a claimed 183bhp.
What is the restricting factor in getting nearer 200bhp or even 220bhp?
I've heard some say it's the small turbo, others say it's the elements in the pump and others say EGTs.
I've de-catted and fitted a K&N filter which should ease EGTs somewhat.
Any tips much appreciated
Charlie
charlysays
02-18-2016, 12:22 PM #1Hi all, I'm new here so hello!
I live in Pembrokeshire West Wales, UK.
I'm 26 and have been into mechanical stuff since I was 10 or 11 where I started with motorbikes.
I bought a C250 TD sport auto estate when I was 22 and it's been a great car having covered over 80,000 miles on pure waste cooking oil. I've got a water injection kit on there to stop the rings gumming up. It's a wicked surf wagon... basically no fuel cost to go surfing etc, throw the boards in the back... use extra waxoyl to slow the rust down!
Anyway, back to topic. I have another C250 TD Sport auto estate which only has 118k miles on the clock and is very tidy. I'm intending on putting it on the road in the summer and retiring my daily driver which has 233k miles on it.
I want to increase the power to 200bhp, perhaps up to 220bhp without spending more than a few hundred £s.
I realise this has probably been covered before somewhere though I'm unable to find where. Most OM605 tuning threads involve an expensive mechanical pump, an equally expensive controller if the 722.6 box is involved, large turbos etc etc.
The highest power remap commonly available is the Superchip at a claimed 183bhp.
What is the restricting factor in getting nearer 200bhp or even 220bhp?
I've heard some say it's the small turbo, others say it's the elements in the pump and others say EGTs.
I've de-catted and fitted a K&N filter which should ease EGTs somewhat.
Any tips much appreciated
Charlie
(02-18-2016, 12:49 PM)seanyt I can supply om606 and om605 remapped ecus for your car.
Are you planning on swapping the turbo.
Your limiting factor is the stock turbo.
Hi Sean,
I've read some of your posts with interest on other threads
Yes I had a plan to send my spare turbo (works, but has very sloppy bearings) away somewhere and get it modified/ tuned/ turned into a hybrid. It is the garrett GT20.
They (a reputable turbo specialist) should be able to get it to produce significantly more boost without negatively effecting the charateristics too much... hopefully?
I don't mind spending the bulk of the money on the turbo and a bit on a new map to make use of it.
So the stock IP is not the reason why none of the standard remaps go above about 180bhp... it is the turbo after all?
Please do let me know what I should ask to be done to this turbo and I'll get it done, then duly purchase a map off you!
I had read that a larger compressor wheel is a good place to start... keeps the exhaust flow characteristics very similar but will allow the turbo to shift more air.
charlysays
02-18-2016, 04:00 PM #4(02-18-2016, 12:49 PM)seanyt I can supply om606 and om605 remapped ecus for your car.
Are you planning on swapping the turbo.
Your limiting factor is the stock turbo.
Hi Sean,
I've read some of your posts with interest on other threads
Yes I had a plan to send my spare turbo (works, but has very sloppy bearings) away somewhere and get it modified/ tuned/ turned into a hybrid. It is the garrett GT20.
They (a reputable turbo specialist) should be able to get it to produce significantly more boost without negatively effecting the charateristics too much... hopefully?
I don't mind spending the bulk of the money on the turbo and a bit on a new map to make use of it.
So the stock IP is not the reason why none of the standard remaps go above about 180bhp... it is the turbo after all?
Please do let me know what I should ask to be done to this turbo and I'll get it done, then duly purchase a map off you!
I had read that a larger compressor wheel is a good place to start... keeps the exhaust flow characteristics very similar but will allow the turbo to shift more air.
(02-18-2016, 02:18 PM)AlanMcR This leads to the eternal question: What turbo plays well with the ECU, giving both good drive-ability (early spool), and good power.
Exactly... I'm wondering if anyone's found a reasonable compromise... I suppose it boils down to getting the best hybrid job possible by someone who can predict the behaviour of the turbo?
With it being an automatic spool up will be less of an issue. I remember when I drove manual C250s they seemed even more laggy under hard acceleration- lots of boost lost during gearchange whereas the autobox seems to manage to keep the engine singing better.
charlysays
02-18-2016, 04:04 PM #5(02-18-2016, 02:18 PM)AlanMcR This leads to the eternal question: What turbo plays well with the ECU, giving both good drive-ability (early spool), and good power.
Exactly... I'm wondering if anyone's found a reasonable compromise... I suppose it boils down to getting the best hybrid job possible by someone who can predict the behaviour of the turbo?
With it being an automatic spool up will be less of an issue. I remember when I drove manual C250s they seemed even more laggy under hard acceleration- lots of boost lost during gearchange whereas the autobox seems to manage to keep the engine singing better.
Baldur Gislason
As we're talking about hacks like shortened exhaust manifolds, I think it's likely that you could machine the turbine housing to accept a centre section out of an OM606 turbo, or possibly even something bigger like a GT28. The way to do this would be to mount the turbine housing in a lathe and machine it to the profile of the larger turbine wheel. This opens up the turbine housing so it's got more potential than just changing the compressor wheel and it's a reasonable operation to do as long as you don't get silly and try to fit a T4 exhaust wheel in there.
Baldur Gislason
(02-19-2016, 05:23 AM)seanyt I hadnt considered that. Ill put it to them, i dont have either turbo to hand so cant compare,
Even thought there different brand it may work.
Sean, so these people trying the OM606 turbo are forum members or customers of yours? Keep me posted on this... I think there would be a good opportunity for selling re-maps which are tailored to a certain turbo/ hardware upgrades. Most OM605 equipped cars are automatic C250 TDs, same goes for the OM606 E300TD and lots of people want to get modest power gains over generic remaps without massive expensive/ upheaval. Like me, they want a reliable daily runner with a nice turn of speed in the 200-220bhp ball park. The early 722.6 is not suited to superturbodiesel type power I don't think... I've known a number destroy themselves with stock power (though most hadn't ever had any fluid changes). There's a weakness on the K3 clutch I think, and they are known for throwing that bearing out which then trashes all the planetry gears. The bronze bushes in the planetry gears themselves are not all that strong either.
So... if the likes of myself and others are not looking for more than 220bhp then it's a kind of excessive expense going down the route of a mechanical pump etc etc... would be great to be able to do just a turbo upgrade and a remap and have some fun gains
Doing a hybrid job on the stock GT20 turbo is still most tempting to me as I don't fancy doing all the hacking to the downpipe, exhaust manifold, making up a new turbo oil feed pipe etc.
Which KKK turbo is fitted to the OM606?
many thanks
charlysays
02-19-2016, 06:46 AM #10(02-19-2016, 05:23 AM)seanyt I hadnt considered that. Ill put it to them, i dont have either turbo to hand so cant compare,
Even thought there different brand it may work.
Sean, so these people trying the OM606 turbo are forum members or customers of yours? Keep me posted on this... I think there would be a good opportunity for selling re-maps which are tailored to a certain turbo/ hardware upgrades. Most OM605 equipped cars are automatic C250 TDs, same goes for the OM606 E300TD and lots of people want to get modest power gains over generic remaps without massive expensive/ upheaval. Like me, they want a reliable daily runner with a nice turn of speed in the 200-220bhp ball park. The early 722.6 is not suited to superturbodiesel type power I don't think... I've known a number destroy themselves with stock power (though most hadn't ever had any fluid changes). There's a weakness on the K3 clutch I think, and they are known for throwing that bearing out which then trashes all the planetry gears. The bronze bushes in the planetry gears themselves are not all that strong either.
So... if the likes of myself and others are not looking for more than 220bhp then it's a kind of excessive expense going down the route of a mechanical pump etc etc... would be great to be able to do just a turbo upgrade and a remap and have some fun gains
Doing a hybrid job on the stock GT20 turbo is still most tempting to me as I don't fancy doing all the hacking to the downpipe, exhaust manifold, making up a new turbo oil feed pipe etc.
Which KKK turbo is fitted to the OM606?
many thanks
But yes i agree im trying to get a few maps done for certain models i currently have about 3-4 of each model ecu socketted and deimmobilised so there all ready to go into cars. just need to test a few. the stock turbo on each model is usually the limiting factor.
so far ive seen 250hp with 6mm elements in om605 and 300hp in a om606.
but these are the limits of the stock pump and would have higher egt's than an 8mm pump.
these also are both with swapped turbos.
raised fuelling and boost on stock turbos result in massive backpressure and egt and these slowly kill the engines.
a hx30 or hx35 would be a good consideration.
stock om606 is a k14 turbo its marginally bigger in comp and turbine than the gt20.
some are on the forum but not putting up details until its all done, the 722.6 isnt too bad you can drill out the k3 port to 4mm to help. if the stock tcu allowed some variance in gears then the 270 or 320 cdi boxes could be swapped in. They have a different first and second gear only, but have more plates are stronger planetary gears.
But yes i agree im trying to get a few maps done for certain models i currently have about 3-4 of each model ecu socketted and deimmobilised so there all ready to go into cars. just need to test a few. the stock turbo on each model is usually the limiting factor.
so far ive seen 250hp with 6mm elements in om605 and 300hp in a om606.
but these are the limits of the stock pump and would have higher egt's than an 8mm pump.
these also are both with swapped turbos.
raised fuelling and boost on stock turbos result in massive backpressure and egt and these slowly kill the engines.
a hx30 or hx35 would be a good consideration.
stock om606 is a k14 turbo its marginally bigger in comp and turbine than the gt20.
(02-19-2016, 08:57 AM)seanyt some are on the forum but not putting up details until its all done, the 722.6 isnt too bad you can drill out the k3 port to 4mm to help. if the stock tcu allowed some variance in gears then the 270 or 320 cdi boxes could be swapped in. They have a different first and second gear only, but have more plates are stronger planetary gears.
But yes i agree im trying to get a few maps done for certain models i currently have about 3-4 of each model ecu socketted and deimmobilised so there all ready to go into cars. just need to test a few. the stock turbo on each model is usually the limiting factor.
so far ive seen 250hp with 6mm elements in om605 and 300hp in a om606.
but these are the limits of the stock pump and would have higher egt's than an 8mm pump.
these also are both with swapped turbos.
raised fuelling and boost on stock turbos result in massive backpressure and egt and these slowly kill the engines.
a hx30 or hx35 would be a good consideration.
stock om606 is a k14 turbo its marginally bigger in comp and turbine than the gt20.
Cool... yeah I have heard of people using them with significantly tunes engines, I won't be though. One of my C250s has done 233k miles on its original transmission.. the one I want to tune up to 200bhp has done 100,000 miles. Interesting mods, the drilling just increases lubrication to the K3 bearing?
Some later C250 TDs had tiptronic gearboxes, those are definitely updated and stronger though it seemed to be a rare option.
250bhp... I guess the injection event gets shorter and shorter the more you push the pump with regards element size. 200-220 should be no sweat then
I can't understand why DPUK told me that in order to get more than a generic remap (circa 175bhp) the first thing I'd have to change would be the pump :/
I had a word with turbodynamics earlier and for £395 + VAT they could fit a larger compressor and cut back the turbine blades on the garrett GT20- they think it would certainly provide enough flow for 200bhp and likely for 220bhp with the benefit of not affecting spool up/ hot side characteristics.
However would this hybrid work improve EGTs and backpressure?
Re the Holset HX, are standard adaptors available to fit them onto the stock OM605 manifold and what are the lower RPM spool up issues like?
Cheers
charlysays
02-19-2016, 01:56 PM #12(02-19-2016, 08:57 AM)seanyt some are on the forum but not putting up details until its all done, the 722.6 isnt too bad you can drill out the k3 port to 4mm to help. if the stock tcu allowed some variance in gears then the 270 or 320 cdi boxes could be swapped in. They have a different first and second gear only, but have more plates are stronger planetary gears.
But yes i agree im trying to get a few maps done for certain models i currently have about 3-4 of each model ecu socketted and deimmobilised so there all ready to go into cars. just need to test a few. the stock turbo on each model is usually the limiting factor.
so far ive seen 250hp with 6mm elements in om605 and 300hp in a om606.
but these are the limits of the stock pump and would have higher egt's than an 8mm pump.
these also are both with swapped turbos.
raised fuelling and boost on stock turbos result in massive backpressure and egt and these slowly kill the engines.
a hx30 or hx35 would be a good consideration.
stock om606 is a k14 turbo its marginally bigger in comp and turbine than the gt20.
Cool... yeah I have heard of people using them with significantly tunes engines, I won't be though. One of my C250s has done 233k miles on its original transmission.. the one I want to tune up to 200bhp has done 100,000 miles. Interesting mods, the drilling just increases lubrication to the K3 bearing?
Some later C250 TDs had tiptronic gearboxes, those are definitely updated and stronger though it seemed to be a rare option.
250bhp... I guess the injection event gets shorter and shorter the more you push the pump with regards element size. 200-220 should be no sweat then
I can't understand why DPUK told me that in order to get more than a generic remap (circa 175bhp) the first thing I'd have to change would be the pump :/
I had a word with turbodynamics earlier and for £395 + VAT they could fit a larger compressor and cut back the turbine blades on the garrett GT20- they think it would certainly provide enough flow for 200bhp and likely for 220bhp with the benefit of not affecting spool up/ hot side characteristics.
However would this hybrid work improve EGTs and backpressure?
Re the Holset HX, are standard adaptors available to fit them onto the stock OM605 manifold and what are the lower RPM spool up issues like?
Cheers
I also would of thought a t/gt25 centre housing would fit with a modified exhaust housing like baldur explained.
On my om606 with remap the turbo ran at 1.5 and easily made 220-240hp+ but was limited at about 4200-4500 due to backpressure.
Surely there is an alternative turbo with the same 3 bolt pattern that could fit easily.
Sounds promising, ideally id like to see a larger turbine wheel fitted as opposed to clipping the wheel.
I also would of thought a t/gt25 centre housing would fit with a modified exhaust housing like baldur explained.
On my om606 with remap the turbo ran at 1.5 and easily made 220-240hp+ but was limited at about 4200-4500 due to backpressure.
Surely there is an alternative turbo with the same 3 bolt pattern that could fit easily.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
the 5 cyl 2.9 sprinters, e290, engine has a gt 25C bolt on , sure it manages i litle more gas throug it, sounds a lot better than a K24, wich is a low press device, or a GT22V but that is a assle to have it working , can be done but is a assle. u can always unload the EBP throug EGR port , works realy well . i´m just amased how well it does work.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
But the turbine and compressor are listed as having a 38mm comp inducer and 38mm turb exducer.
K14 is 43mm both ends and c250td are 40mm there abouts .
So unless you can get a hybrid gt25c with bigger wheels but your into more money.
K14 is definitely the key to safe 200hp + but its getting it fitted cleanly i guess.
I was looking at 2.9 sprinter turbos.
But the turbine and compressor are listed as having a 38mm comp inducer and 38mm turb exducer.
K14 is 43mm both ends and c250td are 40mm there abouts .
So unless you can get a hybrid gt25c with bigger wheels but your into more money.
K14 is definitely the key to safe 200hp + but its getting it fitted cleanly i guess.
(02-19-2016, 05:06 PM)seanyt I was looking at 2.9 sprinter turbos.
But the turbine and compressor are listed as having a 38mm comp inducer and 38mm turb exducer.
K14 is 43mm both ends and c250td are 40mm there abouts .
So unless you can get a hybrid gt25c with bigger wheels but your into more money.
K14 is definitely the key to safe 200hp + but its getting it fitted cleanly i guess.
I'll ask turbo dynamics for a quote to increase the size of the turbine wheel then but I reckon It'll start getting expensive I suspect. I guess with their £395 + VAT option the only thing they're doing to reduce back pressure is cutting down the turbine blades? I'll also ask about the GT20/ G25/ 28 mashup option. Atleast I can supply the parts for that so the cost will be all labour.
With the K14 OM606 cut down manifold option, is there any siginificant loss of low rpm driveability being reported yet?
Om606 manifold and turbo with the manifold cut down and plated is sounding like an attractive and cheap option unless this 2359V will fit onto the stock 605 manifold.
charlysays
02-21-2016, 08:56 AM #17(02-19-2016, 05:06 PM)seanyt I was looking at 2.9 sprinter turbos.
But the turbine and compressor are listed as having a 38mm comp inducer and 38mm turb exducer.
K14 is 43mm both ends and c250td are 40mm there abouts .
So unless you can get a hybrid gt25c with bigger wheels but your into more money.
K14 is definitely the key to safe 200hp + but its getting it fitted cleanly i guess.
I'll ask turbo dynamics for a quote to increase the size of the turbine wheel then but I reckon It'll start getting expensive I suspect. I guess with their £395 + VAT option the only thing they're doing to reduce back pressure is cutting down the turbine blades? I'll also ask about the GT20/ G25/ 28 mashup option. Atleast I can supply the parts for that so the cost will be all labour.
With the K14 OM606 cut down manifold option, is there any siginificant loss of low rpm driveability being reported yet?
Om606 manifold and turbo with the manifold cut down and plated is sounding like an attractive and cheap option unless this 2359V will fit onto the stock 605 manifold.
(02-20-2016, 03:41 PM)PedroFerreira 2359v will do the job
Thank you
As in it will fit on the flange with safe clearance for the steering box and inner wing/ bulkhead with the stock 605 manifold?
charlysays
02-21-2016, 08:59 AM #18(02-20-2016, 03:41 PM)PedroFerreira 2359v will do the job
Thank you
As in it will fit on the flange with safe clearance for the steering box and inner wing/ bulkhead with the stock 605 manifold?
There's a good thread on mbclub about a 722.6 diy rebuild that might interest you.
I've also got a spare 320cdi gearbox...but you'd have to travel with tools!
Cheers, A.
No update on the om606 manifold option yet.
Biggest issue is having move all oil line and other hoses.
Ideally a custom downpipe could be used
I'm not sure how the gt2359v will respond using the stock mercedes vacuum controller. I believe it has the same or similar style 3 bolt fitting.
No update on the om606 manifold option yet.
Biggest issue is having move all oil line and other hoses.
Ideally a custom downpipe could be used
but using a 10mm plate bolted (welded) to the triangle flage , makes posible to bolt the gt 23 in the plate.
GT 23 usually is vac pulse controlled throug PWM signals to a controller (besides the actuator) then the controler operates the pneumatic actuator, or it is electric.
having it to work properly is a nighmare at least for me, but it can be rounded using a pressure controled actuator in the same sense as a WG valve, no pressure vanes closed , increasing pressure vanes start to open .
even with that solution , the vanes canot open too much otherwise will create huge EBP. so a solution that i found out recently is using a EGR valve to vent and relieve the EGP (most EGR valves are too weak so . for those who wish to spend top dólar a externall wastegate type tial set to 2 bar will do the trick a lot better.
clearence well something that is in the way be beatten up down or cuted out
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
GT23V does not bolt on 605 triangle flange!
but using a 10mm plate bolted (welded) to the triangle flage , makes posible to bolt the gt 23 in the plate.
GT 23 usually is vac pulse controlled throug PWM signals to a controller (besides the actuator) then the controler operates the pneumatic actuator, or it is electric.
having it to work properly is a nighmare at least for me, but it can be rounded using a pressure controled actuator in the same sense as a WG valve, no pressure vanes closed , increasing pressure vanes start to open .
even with that solution , the vanes canot open too much otherwise will create huge EBP. so a solution that i found out recently is using a EGR valve to vent and relieve the EGP (most EGR valves are too weak so . for those who wish to spend top dólar a externall wastegate type tial set to 2 bar will do the trick a lot better.
clearence well something that is in the way be beatten up down or cuted out
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(02-21-2016, 10:05 AM)htmtlnmethedrin Hi Charlie...guess who?
There's a good thread on mbclub about a 722.6 diy rebuild that might interest you.
I've also got a spare 320cdi gearbox...but you'd have to travel with tools!
Cheers, A.
Hi Al! Hope your are well... I'll take a look at the 722.6 rebuild thing for interest, though if I'm unfortunate enough to have one go bang I will swap the one out of my donor car!
320CDI box would be good for a superturbodiesel ineed
Would need one of those pricey standalone controllers then.I've had a few near misses with the Mercs standard 150bhp so I'm going to aim for 200, maybe a bit more and leave it at that for a while.
charlysays
02-22-2016, 07:15 AM #22(02-21-2016, 10:05 AM)htmtlnmethedrin Hi Charlie...guess who?
There's a good thread on mbclub about a 722.6 diy rebuild that might interest you.
I've also got a spare 320cdi gearbox...but you'd have to travel with tools!
Cheers, A.
Hi Al! Hope your are well... I'll take a look at the 722.6 rebuild thing for interest, though if I'm unfortunate enough to have one go bang I will swap the one out of my donor car!
320CDI box would be good for a superturbodiesel ineed
Would need one of those pricey standalone controllers then.I've had a few near misses with the Mercs standard 150bhp so I'm going to aim for 200, maybe a bit more and leave it at that for a while.
Has anyone found the point at which back pressure becomes an issue with the stock GT20? I assume it's around the 185-190bhp mark. If so I suppose a guestimate can then be made on how much extra power it will be safe to extract by cutting back the turbine?
charlysays
02-22-2016, 07:22 AM #23Spoke to turbodynamics again... they think that increasing the turbine size will cause too much of a loss of driveability and that cutting back the existing turbine will be enough to reduce back pressure for my purposes. They seem to have tried and tested recipes for their hybrids which they know work and are cautious about trying stuff like fitting a larger turbine or even transplanting the core from a larger turbo like the GT28 etc.
Has anyone found the point at which back pressure becomes an issue with the stock GT20? I assume it's around the 185-190bhp mark. If so I suppose a guestimate can then be made on how much extra power it will be safe to extract by cutting back the turbine?
The No Smoke No Poke article where they are tuning their C250 TD project car on a budget featured Dirty Torque near Shrewsbury which isn't too far from me. Their phone is constantly on answer phone though
charlysays
02-22-2016, 07:34 AM #24So, assuming I get the turbo saga complete... what is the best way of mapping the car to get the most out of my upgraded turbo? I assume I'll need a live map doing,,, anyone know anywhere near ish to West Wales who can do that?
The No Smoke No Poke article where they are tuning their C250 TD project car on a budget featured Dirty Torque near Shrewsbury which isn't too far from me. Their phone is constantly on answer phone though
this would also reduce lag as the off boost fuelling is raised, helping with a larger turbo
the om606 is still probably the best alternative just the downpipe is an issue.
id imagine they dont want to modify the turbo too much.
But this isnt a petrol engine where a specific map is needed and the engine has its own limitations .
These engine will easily run more boost and fuelling.
looks like the most a remap will give on a stock c250td turbo is 190hp.
probably running outside its efficiency at that.
you dont need to live map your car, a remapped ecu will have torque limiter and smoke limits raised, allowing for the best fuelling on and off boost and also no limit to fuelling based on boost from torque limits.
this would also reduce lag as the off boost fuelling is raised, helping with a larger turbo
the om606 is still probably the best alternative just the downpipe is an issue.
id imagine they dont want to modify the turbo too much.
But this isnt a petrol engine where a specific map is needed and the engine has its own limitations .
These engine will easily run more boost and fuelling.
looks like the most a remap will give on a stock c250td turbo is 190hp.
probably running outside its efficiency at that.
(02-22-2016, 08:30 AM)Hario Fit a 606 for 180hp stock, then a remap will give you 200 and a bit?
Just looked at your thread on your conversion... looks wicked. Can't really justify it though... got two perfectly good OM605s and don't fancy the massive upheaval. Messing about with the turbo is within my enthusiasm! Respect to you, your car must go like stink now! The rust alone is enough to keep me busy...
charlysays
02-22-2016, 09:50 AM #27(02-22-2016, 08:30 AM)Hario Fit a 606 for 180hp stock, then a remap will give you 200 and a bit?
Just looked at your thread on your conversion... looks wicked. Can't really justify it though... got two perfectly good OM605s and don't fancy the massive upheaval. Messing about with the turbo is within my enthusiasm! Respect to you, your car must go like stink now! The rust alone is enough to keep me busy...
(02-22-2016, 08:42 AM)seanyt you dont need to live map your car, a remapped ecu will have torque limiter and smoke limits raised, allowing for the best fuelling on and off boost and also no limit to fuelling based on boost from torque limits.
this would also reduce lag as the off boost fuelling is raised, helping with a larger turbo
the om606 is still probably the best alternative just the downpipe is an issue.
id imagine they dont want to modify the turbo too much.
But this isnt a petrol engine where a specific map is needed and the engine has its own limitations .
These engine will easily run more boost and fuelling.
looks like the most a remap will give on a stock c250td turbo is 190hp.
probably running outside its efficiency at that.
I see... So it's easy to remap the chip and predict how much power it will produce on screen? Meaning I could buy the chip off you at distance and install myself... or even the socketed ECU and not need a "live map". Would make life so much easier.
By OM606 I assume you mean using the KKK K14 as an upgrade?
So just to clarify, the KKK K14 fits onto the OM605 manifold flange OK, it's just that the downpipe gets too close to the steering box. Couldn't I just cut and shut the downpipe?
Maybe that is the way to go, and I should spend any money on Hybrid mods on the K14... have a very capable turbo for my power aims then...
charlysays
02-22-2016, 09:59 AM #28(02-22-2016, 08:42 AM)seanyt you dont need to live map your car, a remapped ecu will have torque limiter and smoke limits raised, allowing for the best fuelling on and off boost and also no limit to fuelling based on boost from torque limits.
this would also reduce lag as the off boost fuelling is raised, helping with a larger turbo
the om606 is still probably the best alternative just the downpipe is an issue.
id imagine they dont want to modify the turbo too much.
But this isnt a petrol engine where a specific map is needed and the engine has its own limitations .
These engine will easily run more boost and fuelling.
looks like the most a remap will give on a stock c250td turbo is 190hp.
probably running outside its efficiency at that.
I see... So it's easy to remap the chip and predict how much power it will produce on screen? Meaning I could buy the chip off you at distance and install myself... or even the socketed ECU and not need a "live map". Would make life so much easier.
By OM606 I assume you mean using the KKK K14 as an upgrade?
So just to clarify, the KKK K14 fits onto the OM605 manifold flange OK, it's just that the downpipe gets too close to the steering box. Couldn't I just cut and shut the downpipe?
Maybe that is the way to go, and I should spend any money on Hybrid mods on the K14... have a very capable turbo for my power aims then...
(02-22-2016, 11:01 AM)seanyt Exactly a socketed ecu with a remap, can be remapped by swapping chips. To suit your power or smoke levels.
If you can get a custom downpipe made to clear then k14 is your best solution to 200hp
Cool... the ECU has gotta be worked with anyway, unless I mess about with resistors which is not ideal at all (though I will be trying this on my 233k mile daily driver, as it's cheap lol).
So the K14 has been succesfully installed onto a 605 manifold and a downpipe customised to dodge the steering box sufficiently?
I've done lots of cut and shuts on exhausts before... just want to check it's actually possible before I buy a K14... Are we talking putting a kink in it with a couple of mandrel bends or something really exotic like branching into two?!
What should I pay for a decent K14?
Thinking I could send it away to turbo dynamics and get a larger compressor fitted and the turbine cut back which would likely allow me that upper end of my power aim of 220bhp?
Feels like I know where I'm going now
charlysays
02-22-2016, 01:43 PM #30(02-22-2016, 11:01 AM)seanyt Exactly a socketed ecu with a remap, can be remapped by swapping chips. To suit your power or smoke levels.
If you can get a custom downpipe made to clear then k14 is your best solution to 200hp
Cool... the ECU has gotta be worked with anyway, unless I mess about with resistors which is not ideal at all (though I will be trying this on my 233k mile daily driver, as it's cheap lol).
So the K14 has been succesfully installed onto a 605 manifold and a downpipe customised to dodge the steering box sufficiently?
I've done lots of cut and shuts on exhausts before... just want to check it's actually possible before I buy a K14... Are we talking putting a kink in it with a couple of mandrel bends or something really exotic like branching into two?!
What should I pay for a decent K14?
Thinking I could send it away to turbo dynamics and get a larger compressor fitted and the turbine cut back which would likely allow me that upper end of my power aim of 220bhp?
Feels like I know where I'm going now
It does 220hp on the om606, so you would get the same just higher in the rev range
http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Merced...2.jpg.html
Hario mid way down this page shows his downpipe to fit the k14
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=5780
The problem with the resisotor mod is it only works to a certain degree then gives bad idle, and even at that there are still torque limiters and other restrictions in the ecu to limit top end power. also a remap ecu allows you to remove airflow meter and egr and limit limp mode issues
i honestly thing the k14 will get you your 220hp without any modifiying.
It does 220hp on the om606, so you would get the same just higher in the rev range
http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Merced...2.jpg.html
Hario mid way down this page shows his downpipe to fit the k14
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=5780
The problem with the resisotor mod is it only works to a certain degree then gives bad idle, and even at that there are still torque limiters and other restrictions in the ecu to limit top end power. also a remap ecu allows you to remove airflow meter and egr and limit limp mode issues
(02-22-2016, 02:33 PM)seanyt i honestly thing the k14 will get you your 220hp without any modifiying.
It does 220hp on the om606, so you would get the same just higher in the rev range
http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Merced...2.jpg.html
Hario mid way down this page shows his downpipe to fit the k14
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=5780
The problem with the resisotor mod is it only works to a certain degree then gives bad idle, and even at that there are still torque limiters and other restrictions in the ecu to limit top end power. also a remap ecu allows you to remove airflow meter and egr and limit limp mode issues
Cool
I guess I can always take it off and hybrid it at a later date if I decide I want to start pushing the limits of the stock pump lol. I'll try and get my hands on one soon and bolt it on, then get hacking at the down pipe. Was looking at Harios thread earlier and was thinking that he must have had to solve the same issue seeing as he used 605 mounts for his 606, thus placing the turbo in more or less the same place where mine will end up.Yeah I gathered you can get about 20-25bhp from it before it affects general running... I'll have a play with that on my daily driver though..
How much are your ECUs inc a re-map?
Thanks for your help sean, much appreciated!
charlysays
02-22-2016, 05:47 PM #32(02-22-2016, 02:33 PM)seanyt i honestly thing the k14 will get you your 220hp without any modifiying.
It does 220hp on the om606, so you would get the same just higher in the rev range
http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Merced...2.jpg.html
Hario mid way down this page shows his downpipe to fit the k14
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=5780
The problem with the resisotor mod is it only works to a certain degree then gives bad idle, and even at that there are still torque limiters and other restrictions in the ecu to limit top end power. also a remap ecu allows you to remove airflow meter and egr and limit limp mode issues
Cool
I guess I can always take it off and hybrid it at a later date if I decide I want to start pushing the limits of the stock pump lol. I'll try and get my hands on one soon and bolt it on, then get hacking at the down pipe. Was looking at Harios thread earlier and was thinking that he must have had to solve the same issue seeing as he used 605 mounts for his 606, thus placing the turbo in more or less the same place where mine will end up.Yeah I gathered you can get about 20-25bhp from it before it affects general running... I'll have a play with that on my daily driver though..
How much are your ECUs inc a re-map?
Thanks for your help sean, much appreciated!
cause i can test it.
The ecu can also be remapped easily by just swapping two chips thereafter.
its €300 if i get a ecu in return, but i always send an ecu out first to test.
I have maps of varying tunes and even for 6mm or 8mm edc pumps.
im also working on an om605 ecu with a 6k rev limit but that would require a much larger turbo.
ecu on its own is €350 with remap, egr and airflow removed. and immo fitted. This allows the ecu to work in any car and guarantees it works in the existing car or in a conversion,
cause i can test it.
The ecu can also be remapped easily by just swapping two chips thereafter.
its €300 if i get a ecu in return, but i always send an ecu out first to test.
I have maps of varying tunes and even for 6mm or 8mm edc pumps.
im also working on an om605 ecu with a 6k rev limit but that would require a much larger turbo.
Personally I think it's not a massive gain over the potentiometer mod getting a remap unless you plan no further tuning in the bang for buck stakes. But that's only my opinion & yes it is fairly crude & ruins your idle. I just switch mine on when I plan on giving it the beans.
Can also confirm that a K14 does fit on the stock om605 manifold no issues.
You can clock the compressor housing slightly to line up with the stock boost hoses & the charge intake is the same size as the om605 gt20.
Also the oil drain bolts straight up to the block with no modifications.
The oil line is also the same size & has the same fitting etc but it's not a totally direct fit. I just removed the support bracket & gently bent it a bit until it meets up with the core so no major headache.
The issue is indeed the Angle of the exhaust housing or indeed the lack of it as the K14 comes out straight where as the gt20 kicks it towards the block to avoid steering box.
The turbo is currently on my engine out of the bay at the moment so can't tell you what it will be like once in but I have a spare c250 downpipe & the e300/k14 turbo elbow so hope me and my mate can codge something up for minimum money to get around the issue as it seems a decent bolt on upgrade for om605 owners staying sub 220ish Bhp.
When i swap the engine with my 606 turbo I will update the thread if it's of any help chap
Hi just been reading your thread, I'm not of much help but I am in the same sort of situation in that I also have a w202 om605 (although it's manual) I hope to achieve some decent gains with a moderate outlay.
Personally I think it's not a massive gain over the potentiometer mod getting a remap unless you plan no further tuning in the bang for buck stakes. But that's only my opinion & yes it is fairly crude & ruins your idle. I just switch mine on when I plan on giving it the beans.
Can also confirm that a K14 does fit on the stock om605 manifold no issues.
You can clock the compressor housing slightly to line up with the stock boost hoses & the charge intake is the same size as the om605 gt20.
Also the oil drain bolts straight up to the block with no modifications.
The oil line is also the same size & has the same fitting etc but it's not a totally direct fit. I just removed the support bracket & gently bent it a bit until it meets up with the core so no major headache.
The issue is indeed the Angle of the exhaust housing or indeed the lack of it as the K14 comes out straight where as the gt20 kicks it towards the block to avoid steering box.
The turbo is currently on my engine out of the bay at the moment so can't tell you what it will be like once in but I have a spare c250 downpipe & the e300/k14 turbo elbow so hope me and my mate can codge something up for minimum money to get around the issue as it seems a decent bolt on upgrade for om605 owners staying sub 220ish Bhp.
When i swap the engine with my 606 turbo I will update the thread if it's of any help chap
The potentiometer only works to a certain point and is still limited by the ecu in multiply ways.
When you demand bigger power or swap the fuel pump to 7-8mm then a remap is necessary.
Also the remap stops the car from going to limp mode due to troublesome sensors like airflow meter / egr.
The stock ecu will also not fuel beyond certain boost levels even though the potentiometer mod is over fuelling up to a point.
Im not sure how the stock ecu will respond to a vnt turbo, it may over or under compensate boost levels depending on the levels the controller is set to its definitely worth a try for someone to find out as the stock vacuum control will run a vnt actuator.
A remap isnt for everybody.
The potentiometer only works to a certain point and is still limited by the ecu in multiply ways.
When you demand bigger power or swap the fuel pump to 7-8mm then a remap is necessary.
Also the remap stops the car from going to limp mode due to troublesome sensors like airflow meter / egr.
The stock ecu will also not fuel beyond certain boost levels even though the potentiometer mod is over fuelling up to a point.
Im not sure how the stock ecu will respond to a vnt turbo, it may over or under compensate boost levels depending on the levels the controller is set to its definitely worth a try for someone to find out as the stock vacuum control will run a vnt actuator.
Sounds like we're on the same mission more or less.
I've gone down the route of a socketed plug & play ECU from seanyt and will fit a K14 when I can get my hands on one (along with the oil feed pipe and the front most foot-18" of the downpipe).
Good to hear that it will fit, even the oil pipe with a bit of bending.
I'm handy with a mig welder so re-making the downpipe won't be bad.
I assume what Hario did with his C300TD conversion with regards the K14 turbo and the downpipe hack is basically the same thing that I have to do. He heat wrapped the downpipe and steering box too so maybe he thought it too close for comfort.
Keep me posted
cheers
(02-23-2016, 04:12 PM)juggs Hi just been reading your thread, I'm not of much help but I am in the same sort of situation in that I also have a w202 om605 (although it's manual) I hope to achieve some decent gains with a moderate outlay.
Personally I think it's not a massive gain over the potentiometer mod getting a remap unless you plan no further tuning in the bang for buck stakes. But that's only my opinion & yes it is fairly crude & ruins your idle. I just switch mine on when I plan on giving it the beans.
Can also confirm that a K14 does fit on the stock om605 manifold no issues.
You can clock the compressor housing slightly to line up with the stock boost hoses & the charge intake is the same size as the om605 gt20.
Also the oil drain bolts straight up to the block with no modifications.
The oil line is also the same size & has the same fitting etc but it's not a totally direct fit. I just removed the support bracket & gently bent it a bit until it meets up with the core so no major headache.
The issue is indeed the Angle of the exhaust housing or indeed the lack of it as the K14 comes out straight where as the gt20 kicks it towards the block to avoid steering box.
The turbo is currently on my engine out of the bay at the moment so can't tell you what it will be like once in but I have a spare c250 downpipe & the e300/k14 turbo elbow so hope me and my mate can codge something up for minimum money to get around the issue as it seems a decent bolt on upgrade for om605 owners staying sub 220ish Bhp.
When i swap the engine with my 606 turbo I will update the thread if it's of any help chap
charlysays
02-29-2016, 10:44 AM #37Thanks for the post mate
Sounds like we're on the same mission more or less.
I've gone down the route of a socketed plug & play ECU from seanyt and will fit a K14 when I can get my hands on one (along with the oil feed pipe and the front most foot-18" of the downpipe).
Good to hear that it will fit, even the oil pipe with a bit of bending.
I'm handy with a mig welder so re-making the downpipe won't be bad.
I assume what Hario did with his C300TD conversion with regards the K14 turbo and the downpipe hack is basically the same thing that I have to do. He heat wrapped the downpipe and steering box too so maybe he thought it too close for comfort.
Keep me posted
cheers
(02-23-2016, 04:12 PM)juggs Hi just been reading your thread, I'm not of much help but I am in the same sort of situation in that I also have a w202 om605 (although it's manual) I hope to achieve some decent gains with a moderate outlay.
Personally I think it's not a massive gain over the potentiometer mod getting a remap unless you plan no further tuning in the bang for buck stakes. But that's only my opinion & yes it is fairly crude & ruins your idle. I just switch mine on when I plan on giving it the beans.
Can also confirm that a K14 does fit on the stock om605 manifold no issues.
You can clock the compressor housing slightly to line up with the stock boost hoses & the charge intake is the same size as the om605 gt20.
Also the oil drain bolts straight up to the block with no modifications.
The oil line is also the same size & has the same fitting etc but it's not a totally direct fit. I just removed the support bracket & gently bent it a bit until it meets up with the core so no major headache.
The issue is indeed the Angle of the exhaust housing or indeed the lack of it as the K14 comes out straight where as the gt20 kicks it towards the block to avoid steering box.
The turbo is currently on my engine out of the bay at the moment so can't tell you what it will be like once in but I have a spare c250 downpipe & the e300/k14 turbo elbow so hope me and my mate can codge something up for minimum money to get around the issue as it seems a decent bolt on upgrade for om605 owners staying sub 220ish Bhp.
When i swap the engine with my 606 turbo I will update the thread if it's of any help chap
Om605 with electric pump and 7.5mm elements..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX0sG30bdG0
bruno_pinho
02-29-2016, 01:14 PM #38Hi
Om605 with electric pump and 7.5mm elements..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX0sG30bdG0
I was hoping it would, out of the engine bay it's a straight swap apart from what I mentioned in previous posts.
The K14 could still be a decent mild upgrade on a om605 in other cars/conversions or possibly on a LHD w202.
On a right hand drive though the turbo will not clear even with the actuator removed, exhaust housing sits directly on to the steering box & p.s pipes, this stops it sitting on the engine mount on this side.
For now I will have to revert back to stock gt20 turbo unfortunately but I'm mocking up an adaptor to run a 2871 .86 turbo I have while it's off the car.
Hopefully this will be on the map early enough with one of Sean's Ecu's for a decent 200-240bhp upgrade whilst keeping stock EDC & 6mm elements.
Has anyone else tried a t28 , be it 2860 or 2871 etc on a om605 with stock pump & elements?
If I provide the specs of the turbo would anyone be able to shed light on how it would work on my set up?
Hi there mate sorry to be the barer of bad news but for you or anyone else considering this swap it does not clear the steering box on a RHD car.
I was hoping it would, out of the engine bay it's a straight swap apart from what I mentioned in previous posts.
The K14 could still be a decent mild upgrade on a om605 in other cars/conversions or possibly on a LHD w202.
On a right hand drive though the turbo will not clear even with the actuator removed, exhaust housing sits directly on to the steering box & p.s pipes, this stops it sitting on the engine mount on this side.
For now I will have to revert back to stock gt20 turbo unfortunately but I'm mocking up an adaptor to run a 2871 .86 turbo I have while it's off the car.
Hopefully this will be on the map early enough with one of Sean's Ecu's for a decent 200-240bhp upgrade whilst keeping stock EDC & 6mm elements.
Has anyone else tried a t28 , be it 2860 or 2871 etc on a om605 with stock pump & elements?
If I provide the specs of the turbo would anyone be able to shed light on how it would work on my set up?
That will place the turbo further forward and should mimic harios set up which we know works. Those other turbos you mentioned sound interesting ☺
charlysays
03-01-2016, 09:18 AM #40Thanks for getting back to me mate... So it looks like to use the K14 the simplest solution is to do what Sean said others are trying... Cut the front most port off a 606 manifold, plate it shut and skim the gasket surface..
That will place the turbo further forward and should mimic harios set up which we know works. Those other turbos you mentioned sound interesting ☺
I've got one of Seanyt's Deimmo socketed ECUs in my daily driver with 180hp maps- really pleased. It works in both my facelift C250s as normal once the canbus wires are removed from the back of the EIS module. Nice increase in power for sure.
Another one is arriving next week to go in my project car. I've got a garrett GT2871 for that and hope to make a cleanish 230hp with reasonable spoolup.
I'll make a thread with pictures of everything in the projects section shortly.
Unfortunately I've buggered up my right hand in a surfing accident...torn some thumb ligaments, though not completely so rest and physio will hopefully see me right.
So as far as the aim of this thread goes I think we've determined the best route to go down for 250hp or below is one of seans ECUs, a boost gauge, a GT2860 or similar T28 turbo with an adaptor made up for the stock manifold... then fabricated downpipe and oil feed/drains for turbo as required. Hopefully by summer I'll have this realised!
charlysays
03-26-2016, 04:14 PM #41Just to finish this thread off...
I've got one of Seanyt's Deimmo socketed ECUs in my daily driver with 180hp maps- really pleased. It works in both my facelift C250s as normal once the canbus wires are removed from the back of the EIS module. Nice increase in power for sure.
Another one is arriving next week to go in my project car. I've got a garrett GT2871 for that and hope to make a cleanish 230hp with reasonable spoolup.
I'll make a thread with pictures of everything in the projects section shortly.
Unfortunately I've buggered up my right hand in a surfing accident...torn some thumb ligaments, though not completely so rest and physio will hopefully see me right.
So as far as the aim of this thread goes I think we've determined the best route to go down for 250hp or below is one of seans ECUs, a boost gauge, a GT2860 or similar T28 turbo with an adaptor made up for the stock manifold... then fabricated downpipe and oil feed/drains for turbo as required. Hopefully by summer I'll have this realised!
25 Guest(s)
25 Guest(s)