716.668 into w124 - Tunnel Interference
716.668 into w124 - Tunnel Interference
I'm in the middle of a 6-speed swap (716.668) into my '93 300D (w124). I have an issue where (after the transmission is bolted to the engine) the transmission is hitting the top of the tunnel, preventing the engine/trans from being oriented so that the driveline lines up (the output flange of the trans and the flange of the driveshaft are not parallel...the trans needs to tilt up further).
From feeling around the transmission and tunnel for interference, I believe it is hitting the rib of the tunnel that is located just behind the fanbox drain (area circled in red).
This would seem to make sense, as the 716.6x is taller than the 717.4x in that location.
I asked Hans (Hansebanger77) whether he experienced the same interference on his 716.554 into w124 install. He did not, and suggested that maybe there's a difference between the 716 transmissions that use a single shift rod (his) versus the ones the use the rod+bowden cable (mine). I cannot find any visible differences from the pics I've seen online...has anyone observed any differences firsthand? Note, I'm not using the Bowden cable/linkage, and although the selector shaft area is also taller than the 411.4x, this area is not hitting the tunnel. Not yet, anyway.
Over on the PeachParts forum, Gryling608 installed the same 617.668 into the same model/year/engine car as I have: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/dies...-swap.html There is no mention of any trans/tunnel interference. This isn't proof that there wasn't, but if he had to hammer clearance into his tunnel, or cut/raise/reweld the tunnel, that might have been a significant detail to include in the thread.
Anybody else install a 716.6x into a w124 who can confirm the presence or lack of interference? I don't know if it matters, but my engine mounts are fairly fresh (probably less than 5K miles); could my engine be sitting higher due to new mounts? [or could the om602 be so much lighter than an om606 (such as what's in Hans' w124) that it sits higher in the chassis?]
More than anything, I'm puzzled why there is interference when other 716-into-w124 swaps, including an identical swap, do not have (or mention?) interference.
Possible solutions?
- Persuade some clearance into the tunnel with a hammer.
- Cut, raise and reweld the tunnel.
- Run the engine/trans at an angle, use a cardan joint to couple the output shaft of the transmission to the driveshaft (I have to machine a spacer/adapter anyway)
F.R.A.S., the BMW 6-speed appears significantly taller than the 722 and 717 transmissions; do your w124 customers have to modify the tunnel to fit these gearboxes?
Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
[TLDR cliffnotes: 716.668 transmission hits the tunnel, doesn't align with driveline. Why? What should I do?]
I'm in the middle of a 6-speed swap (716.668) into my '93 300D (w124). I have an issue where (after the transmission is bolted to the engine) the transmission is hitting the top of the tunnel, preventing the engine/trans from being oriented so that the driveline lines up (the output flange of the trans and the flange of the driveshaft are not parallel...the trans needs to tilt up further).
From feeling around the transmission and tunnel for interference, I believe it is hitting the rib of the tunnel that is located just behind the fanbox drain (area circled in red).
This would seem to make sense, as the 716.6x is taller than the 717.4x in that location.
I asked Hans (Hansebanger77) whether he experienced the same interference on his 716.554 into w124 install. He did not, and suggested that maybe there's a difference between the 716 transmissions that use a single shift rod (his) versus the ones the use the rod+bowden cable (mine). I cannot find any visible differences from the pics I've seen online...has anyone observed any differences firsthand? Note, I'm not using the Bowden cable/linkage, and although the selector shaft area is also taller than the 411.4x, this area is not hitting the tunnel. Not yet, anyway.
Over on the PeachParts forum, Gryling608 installed the same 617.668 into the same model/year/engine car as I have: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/dies...-swap.html There is no mention of any trans/tunnel interference. This isn't proof that there wasn't, but if he had to hammer clearance into his tunnel, or cut/raise/reweld the tunnel, that might have been a significant detail to include in the thread.
Anybody else install a 716.6x into a w124 who can confirm the presence or lack of interference? I don't know if it matters, but my engine mounts are fairly fresh (probably less than 5K miles); could my engine be sitting higher due to new mounts? [or could the om602 be so much lighter than an om606 (such as what's in Hans' w124) that it sits higher in the chassis?]
More than anything, I'm puzzled why there is interference when other 716-into-w124 swaps, including an identical swap, do not have (or mention?) interference.
Possible solutions?
- Persuade some clearance into the tunnel with a hammer.
- Cut, raise and reweld the tunnel.
- Run the engine/trans at an angle, use a cardan joint to couple the output shaft of the transmission to the driveshaft (I have to machine a spacer/adapter anyway)
F.R.A.S., the BMW 6-speed appears significantly taller than the 722 and 717 transmissions; do your w124 customers have to modify the tunnel to fit these gearboxes?
Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
What's holding the engine up other than precariously balancing on the mounts? Try lifting the front of the engine up to tilt the rear down?
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
(04-09-2016, 04:30 PM)NZScott What's holding the engine up other than precariously balancing on the mounts? Try lifting the front of the engine up to tilt the rear down?
There is no problem bolting the transmission to the engine (I have edited the original post to make this clear). The problem is once the transmission is bolted to the engine, and the transmission is raised at the output shaft (or tail-shaft), the transmission hits the tunnel, preventing it from being aligned with the drive-shaft (or prop-shaft).
(04-09-2016, 04:30 PM)NZScott What's holding the engine up other than precariously balancing on the mounts? Try lifting the front of the engine up to tilt the rear down?
There is no problem bolting the transmission to the engine (I have edited the original post to make this clear). The problem is once the transmission is bolted to the engine, and the transmission is raised at the output shaft (or tail-shaft), the transmission hits the tunnel, preventing it from being aligned with the drive-shaft (or prop-shaft).
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Ahhhh right, sorry. Can't really help you with a W124 other than supporting option A - hammer...
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
I do recall my replacement engine mounts being quite a bit taller than the worn mounts I replaced (I had to jack the engine up quite a bit further to get the new mounts in after removing the old mounts, which I suspect was because the old mounts were trashed). Is it known whether there is variation in the dimensions of different engine mounts (I believe these are Lemforders)...anybody know which ones are the shortest?
Few leads so far. Muuris did chime in on PM that his friend had to cut the tunnel with a w201/om605 to get the 6-speed to fit. I don't know how comparable the w201 tunnel is to the w124, but at least I'm not alone on the interference issue (it's just that the 2 other folks who've swapped the 716 into a w124 don't seem to have interference).
I do recall my replacement engine mounts being quite a bit taller than the worn mounts I replaced (I had to jack the engine up quite a bit further to get the new mounts in after removing the old mounts, which I suspect was because the old mounts were trashed). Is it known whether there is variation in the dimensions of different engine mounts (I believe these are Lemforders)...anybody know which ones are the shortest?
but yeah, to massage the tunnel seems like the only option, interesting information anyhow since i might do the same mod.
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
04-13-2016, 03:58 AM #6if you lower the engine (if that is possible) even a tiny bit, you will get better clearence.
but yeah, to massage the tunnel seems like the only option, interesting information anyhow since i might do the same mod.
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
So here's the plan:
- mock up a temporary set of motor mounts to drop the engine and allow some fore/aft adjustment to pick up clearance with the tunnel.
- throw the trans back in and see if I can get the driveline aligned.
- if so, shim up the mounts as high as I can go while still having adequate clearance at the tunnel. This will give me as much clearance at the pan as possible to allow for the motor mounts to settle.
- fabricate the final version of the mounts.
Modifying the tunnel is ranking high as a solution of last resort, and I seem to have quite a bit of clearance between the cross member and oil pan.
So here's the plan:
- mock up a temporary set of motor mounts to drop the engine and allow some fore/aft adjustment to pick up clearance with the tunnel.
- throw the trans back in and see if I can get the driveline aligned.
- if so, shim up the mounts as high as I can go while still having adequate clearance at the tunnel. This will give me as much clearance at the pan as possible to allow for the motor mounts to settle.
- fabricate the final version of the mounts.
(04-11-2016, 08:53 PM)JVance his friend had to cut the tunnel with a w201/om605 to get the 6-speed to fit.
Im driving the same Combo in my w201 an i didn´t hat to cut out the Tunnel (om605/ 716.6 with Bowdencable)
What Enginemounts did you use ? I used the Stock 602 Mounts, with the 605 Mounts the Engine hit the Bonnet.
Greets
Max
______________________________________________________________
93´ W124 300TDT -> OM606.962 / RS 203 Dieselmeken 7,5mm 210cc / KKK K14 / Stock Transmission / 2,65 ASD
89´ 190D 2.5 Turbo -> OM605.960 / Dieselmeken 7,5mm 180cc / Holset HX30 Super / 716. 654 6-Speed / 2,87 Rear Axle
(04-11-2016, 08:53 PM)JVance his friend had to cut the tunnel with a w201/om605 to get the 6-speed to fit.
Im driving the same Combo in my w201 an i didn´t hat to cut out the Tunnel (om605/ 716.6 with Bowdencable)
What Enginemounts did you use ? I used the Stock 602 Mounts, with the 605 Mounts the Engine hit the Bonnet.
Greets
Max
______________________________________________________________
93´ W124 300TDT -> OM606.962 / RS 203 Dieselmeken 7,5mm 210cc / KKK K14 / Stock Transmission / 2,65 ASD
89´ 190D 2.5 Turbo -> OM605.960 / Dieselmeken 7,5mm 180cc / Holset HX30 Super / 716. 654 6-Speed / 2,87 Rear Axle
(04-14-2016, 08:09 AM)Max(04-11-2016, 08:53 PM)JVance his friend had to cut the tunnel with a w201/om605 to get the 6-speed to fit.
Im driving the same Combo in my w201 an i didn´t hat to cut out the Tunnel (om605/ 716.6 with Bowdencable)
What Enginemounts did you use ? I used the Stock 602 Mounts, with the 605 Mounts the Engine hit the Bonnet.
Greets
Max
I found my receipt...Boge mounts, p/n 2012404217. ECS had them listed as the correct mounts for my om602.
Were your "stock 602 mounts" new, or the ones that had been in the car for years?
When did you install the 605's? Prior to the 6-speed swap? I can't see how you could run a taller mount where the engine would hit the bonnet but the transmission would still clear the tunnel (e.g. your claim is mutually exclusive from the 6-speed swap?)
I don't have any proof, as nobody has yet shared enough details to confirm one way or another, but I think the issue is either variation in engine mounts and/or the height of new mounts compared to tired old mounts.
However, having seen some of the booty-fab on this site, I'm also not ruling out that maybe those who've fit the transmission without clearance issues don't have the driveline aligned to begin with, and are just letting the giubo deal with it.
(04-14-2016, 08:09 AM)Max(04-11-2016, 08:53 PM)JVance his friend had to cut the tunnel with a w201/om605 to get the 6-speed to fit.
Im driving the same Combo in my w201 an i didn´t hat to cut out the Tunnel (om605/ 716.6 with Bowdencable)
What Enginemounts did you use ? I used the Stock 602 Mounts, with the 605 Mounts the Engine hit the Bonnet.
Greets
Max
I found my receipt...Boge mounts, p/n 2012404217. ECS had them listed as the correct mounts for my om602.
Were your "stock 602 mounts" new, or the ones that had been in the car for years?
When did you install the 605's? Prior to the 6-speed swap? I can't see how you could run a taller mount where the engine would hit the bonnet but the transmission would still clear the tunnel (e.g. your claim is mutually exclusive from the 6-speed swap?)
I don't have any proof, as nobody has yet shared enough details to confirm one way or another, but I think the issue is either variation in engine mounts and/or the height of new mounts compared to tired old mounts.
However, having seen some of the booty-fab on this site, I'm also not ruling out that maybe those who've fit the transmission without clearance issues don't have the driveline aligned to begin with, and are just letting the giubo deal with it.
my Mounts where Brand new 602 Turbo Mounts without AirCondition
605 was mounted witout Transmission ;-)
______________________________________________________________
93´ W124 300TDT -> OM606.962 / RS 203 Dieselmeken 7,5mm 210cc / KKK K14 / Stock Transmission / 2,65 ASD
89´ 190D 2.5 Turbo -> OM605.960 / Dieselmeken 7,5mm 180cc / Holset HX30 Super / 716. 654 6-Speed / 2,87 Rear Axle
Hi,
my Mounts where Brand new 602 Turbo Mounts without AirCondition
605 was mounted witout Transmission ;-)
______________________________________________________________
93´ W124 300TDT -> OM606.962 / RS 203 Dieselmeken 7,5mm 210cc / KKK K14 / Stock Transmission / 2,65 ASD
89´ 190D 2.5 Turbo -> OM605.960 / Dieselmeken 7,5mm 180cc / Holset HX30 Super / 716. 654 6-Speed / 2,87 Rear Axle
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
The 716.xxx gearboxes have 2 different sizes. Those rated 170 and 270Nm do not interfere and those rated 370 and 470Nm do interfere as they are slightly bigger in the middle. I did research this before i did my swap in my w201 and found that it would not fit the tunnel if i took the higher rated boxes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
(04-18-2016, 04:28 AM)EvoPeter The 716.xxx gearboxes have 2 different sizes. Those rated 170 and 270Nm do not interfere and those rated 370 and 470Nm do interfere as they are slightly bigger in the middle. I did research this before i did my swap in my w201 and found that it would not fit the tunnel if i took the higher rated boxes.
Johann (Hansebanger) alluded to there being two different gearboxes (just from the shift linkages alone), but there were no differences I could tell just from looking at pictures. Thank you for confirming this. Hopefully this info will better-prepare others for the potential head-ache they may face.
(04-18-2016, 04:28 AM)EvoPeter The 716.xxx gearboxes have 2 different sizes. Those rated 170 and 270Nm do not interfere and those rated 370 and 470Nm do interfere as they are slightly bigger in the middle. I did research this before i did my swap in my w201 and found that it would not fit the tunnel if i took the higher rated boxes.
Johann (Hansebanger) alluded to there being two different gearboxes (just from the shift linkages alone), but there were no differences I could tell just from looking at pictures. Thank you for confirming this. Hopefully this info will better-prepare others for the potential head-ache they may face.
I will attach pics of the drop plates i made to attach the slk230 6 speed (smaller trans i guess) and matching crossmember to the w124 unibody bolt holes. I just need to edit them for size. To be clear, i installed an '03 slk230 6 speed with stock slk shifter rod/cable assembly into my '87 300d. I am running the sprinter single mass conversion flywheel and some random front driveshaft i had lying around from when i was trying to see what front sections would work with the old 5 speed setup and e400 subframe (and 110mm bcd 6 bolt flex discs on both sides)
Anyway, i did not have the fitment issues you had, but i did have to space the crossmember(again 03' slk230 6speed version) down about 1.25" (32mm) with some aluminum rectangle bar stock (1.25x2"). Interestingly, the starboard side middle bolt hole lined up perfectly, but I had to drill and tap the other holes and for the aft starboard bolt hole I needed to drill a hole adjacent to the one already punched in the crossmember. Since there were 3 holes on each side of the 6speed manual crossmember for the r170, i made my adapters to bolt up the the frame rails with three recessed cap screws and the tapped 3 holes for stock w124 trans crossmemember bolts M10x1.5 thread in case anyone needed that). I used a spare trans bellhousing bolt and drilled a 11mm thru hole for the middle starboard bolt to go all the way into the frame rail. The slk crossmember also has an offset to port (longer from centerline to port side than to starboard side) so i had to offset the boltholes a bit on the port side, perhaps 10-15mm or so.
All in all it ended up being cleaner than I expected and I am maximizing the use of factory parts/mounts. With the drop plates in and all bolts tight, the driveshaft lined up perfectly with the output shaft of the trans...i just need to get a custom shaft made up because the best fitting one I had in my parts pile is about 25mm too short...I am only getting about 25mm spline engagement at the joint. Ill have to drive much more carefully than Id want to until that is remedied.
I also need to get to the part yard to get an exhaust mount from an slk or similar as all i had available today was w201/124 style 5 speed which I modified to bolt up and lockwire (stainless safety wire) around the pipe to get the car back on the ground
Inital impression is that this trans is a much better fit than the 5speed was. The takeoff in first gear is quite decent...could also be from the different clutch / flywheel setup as well.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
04-20-2016, 03:18 AM #15I just installed mine this week...finished up the crossmember today. I am going to start a thread with all the details, but I need to trim a little more from the tunnel to accomodate reverse as I was trying not to lose ability to revert to the 5speed or slushbox in the future. Anyway, ive trimmed as much as I can without losing the aft port side bolt hole for the stock w124/201 shifter setup...looks like point of no return will be tomorrow. Ive got all 6 forward gears, but no reverse...and it seems like I have to pull up on the shift knob to get left over to 1st and 2nd...but there is NO clearance left without more trimming on the port side of the shifter hole.
I will attach pics of the drop plates i made to attach the slk230 6 speed (smaller trans i guess) and matching crossmember to the w124 unibody bolt holes. I just need to edit them for size. To be clear, i installed an '03 slk230 6 speed with stock slk shifter rod/cable assembly into my '87 300d. I am running the sprinter single mass conversion flywheel and some random front driveshaft i had lying around from when i was trying to see what front sections would work with the old 5 speed setup and e400 subframe (and 110mm bcd 6 bolt flex discs on both sides)
Anyway, i did not have the fitment issues you had, but i did have to space the crossmember(again 03' slk230 6speed version) down about 1.25" (32mm) with some aluminum rectangle bar stock (1.25x2"). Interestingly, the starboard side middle bolt hole lined up perfectly, but I had to drill and tap the other holes and for the aft starboard bolt hole I needed to drill a hole adjacent to the one already punched in the crossmember. Since there were 3 holes on each side of the 6speed manual crossmember for the r170, i made my adapters to bolt up the the frame rails with three recessed cap screws and the tapped 3 holes for stock w124 trans crossmemember bolts M10x1.5 thread in case anyone needed that). I used a spare trans bellhousing bolt and drilled a 11mm thru hole for the middle starboard bolt to go all the way into the frame rail. The slk crossmember also has an offset to port (longer from centerline to port side than to starboard side) so i had to offset the boltholes a bit on the port side, perhaps 10-15mm or so.
All in all it ended up being cleaner than I expected and I am maximizing the use of factory parts/mounts. With the drop plates in and all bolts tight, the driveshaft lined up perfectly with the output shaft of the trans...i just need to get a custom shaft made up because the best fitting one I had in my parts pile is about 25mm too short...I am only getting about 25mm spline engagement at the joint. Ill have to drive much more carefully than Id want to until that is remedied.
I also need to get to the part yard to get an exhaust mount from an slk or similar as all i had available today was w201/124 style 5 speed which I modified to bolt up and lockwire (stainless safety wire) around the pipe to get the car back on the ground
Inital impression is that this trans is a much better fit than the 5speed was. The takeoff in first gear is quite decent...could also be from the different clutch / flywheel setup as well.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
(04-20-2016, 03:18 AM)SurfRodder Anyway, i did not have the fitment issues you had, but i did have to space the crossmember(again 03' slk230 6speed version) down about 1.25" (32mm) with some aluminum rectangle bar stock (1.25x2").
Are you able to provide the transmission model number (stamped into the side of the trans)? This may be helpful for folks to confirm whether they've found a transmission that's of the smaller (or larger) variety, when they cannot otherwise compare the two styles of transmissions side-by-side.
(04-20-2016, 03:18 AM)SurfRodder Anyway, i did not have the fitment issues you had, but i did have to space the crossmember(again 03' slk230 6speed version) down about 1.25" (32mm) with some aluminum rectangle bar stock (1.25x2").
Are you able to provide the transmission model number (stamped into the side of the trans)? This may be helpful for folks to confirm whether they've found a transmission that's of the smaller (or larger) variety, when they cannot otherwise compare the two styles of transmissions side-by-side.
how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
another question, i have the same job to do in a w124 126 1993 i belive. how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have? i pretty sure i have the stonguest one , came out from a 270cdi w211. om647 engine, but any how i would like to know what i have in there???
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hy fellas,
how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
another question, i have the same job to do in a w124 126 1993 i belive. how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have? i pretty sure i have the stonguest one , came out from a 270cdi w211. om647 engine, but any how i would like to know what i have in there???
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(04-20-2016, 09:47 AM)barrote hy fellas,
how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
another question, i have the same job to do in a w124 126 1993 i belive. how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have? i pretty sure i have the stonguest one , came out from a 270cdi w211. om647 engine, but any how i would like to know what i have in there???
I haven't progressed far enough to address the odometer, but I'm leaning towards the electric odometer/speedometer from the w126(?) with a signal converter, and using the speedometer sensor already present in the transmission.
Regarding which 716 you have, 1) look at the full model number stamped into the side of the transmission case; 2) refer to these charts (the number following the "SG-Sxxx" supposedly refers to the rated torque capacity in Nm):
![[Image: mb6spdmanualpjce.png]](http://www.abload.de/img/mb6spdmanualpjce.png)
![[Image: mb6spdmanualgearskmm0.png]](http://www.abload.de/img/mb6spdmanualgearskmm0.png)
I believe a thread (sticky) in the future which summarizes the 716.6xx conversion knowledge-base would be useful. As of now, there is quite a bit of info spread across 3 different forums, and much is general discussion that does not address the technical hurdles that some of us have had to overcome. I'm using a different flywheel and shifter solution for my conversion (which I find is somewhat trivial), but the body interference was something I was not expecting, at least from ready others' threads on the conversion.
(04-20-2016, 09:47 AM)barrote hy fellas,
how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
another question, i have the same job to do in a w124 126 1993 i belive. how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have? i pretty sure i have the stonguest one , came out from a 270cdi w211. om647 engine, but any how i would like to know what i have in there???
I haven't progressed far enough to address the odometer, but I'm leaning towards the electric odometer/speedometer from the w126(?) with a signal converter, and using the speedometer sensor already present in the transmission.
Regarding which 716 you have, 1) look at the full model number stamped into the side of the transmission case; 2) refer to these charts (the number following the "SG-Sxxx" supposedly refers to the rated torque capacity in Nm):
I believe a thread (sticky) in the future which summarizes the 716.6xx conversion knowledge-base would be useful. As of now, there is quite a bit of info spread across 3 different forums, and much is general discussion that does not address the technical hurdles that some of us have had to overcome. I'm using a different flywheel and shifter solution for my conversion (which I find is somewhat trivial), but the body interference was something I was not expecting, at least from ready others' threads on the conversion.
(04-20-2016, 09:35 AM)JVance Are you able to provide the transmission model number (stamped into the side of the trans)? This may be helpful for folks to confirm whether they've found a transmission that's of the smaller (or larger) variety, when they cannot otherwise compare the two styles of transmissions side-by-side.
Interestingly mine is not listed in the chart you posted. EDIT: looks like .630 is the same as a .622 and thus an SG-270/5.5
The pertinent details are:
716.630
Full number is: 203 260 07 01 716.630 0 1 575 816
I wish I would have thought of counting the ratios while I had it out.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
04-20-2016, 10:35 AM #19(04-20-2016, 09:35 AM)JVance Are you able to provide the transmission model number (stamped into the side of the trans)? This may be helpful for folks to confirm whether they've found a transmission that's of the smaller (or larger) variety, when they cannot otherwise compare the two styles of transmissions side-by-side.
Interestingly mine is not listed in the chart you posted. EDIT: looks like .630 is the same as a .622 and thus an SG-270/5.5
The pertinent details are:
716.630
Full number is: 203 260 07 01 716.630 0 1 575 816
I wish I would have thought of counting the ratios while I had it out.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
(04-20-2016, 09:47 AM)barrote hy fellas,1) My plan is to use a 400e / e420 speedo and use it, but the ratio is significantly different.
1) how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
2) how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have?
I mainly want to see if plugging it in directly will work and then get one of those digital boxes (I think yellow box or some such thing) to correct the speed at 80mph to reflect what a couple different GPS devices say. IF necessary I will add something to the custom driveshaft to count the turns and feed that signal to the digital box.
2) The number is stamped on the Starboard side of the trans just above the pan seal / gasket
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
04-20-2016, 10:43 AM #20(04-20-2016, 09:47 AM)barrote hy fellas,1) My plan is to use a 400e / e420 speedo and use it, but the ratio is significantly different.
1) how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
2) how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have?
I mainly want to see if plugging it in directly will work and then get one of those digital boxes (I think yellow box or some such thing) to correct the speed at 80mph to reflect what a couple different GPS devices say. IF necessary I will add something to the custom driveshaft to count the turns and feed that signal to the digital box.
2) The number is stamped on the Starboard side of the trans just above the pan seal / gasket
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
(04-20-2016, 09:47 AM)barrote hy fellas,
how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
another question, i have the same job to do in a w124 126 1993 i belive. how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have? i pretty sure i have the stonguest one , came out from a 270cdi w211. om647 engine, but any how i would like to know what i have in there???
I took a electrical speedo from a w126 and fitted into my w201 dash together with a Dakota Digital box and signal from ABS sensor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb0n4aZT0_k
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
(04-20-2016, 09:47 AM)barrote hy fellas,
how did u manage the odometer with the 716,s and the w 124 dash?
another question, i have the same job to do in a w124 126 1993 i belive. how the hell do u recognise wich 716 u have? i pretty sure i have the stonguest one , came out from a 270cdi w211. om647 engine, but any how i would like to know what i have in there???
I took a electrical speedo from a w126 and fitted into my w201 dash together with a Dakota Digital box and signal from ABS sensor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb0n4aZT0_k
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
do u usually swap the all dash or just the odometer part.
i can see no numbers stamped in my 716, that is my problem the place where the numbers should be there is none, no plates all gone ;(
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
i see , do u guys happen to know if the w202 electrical dash fits the w 124?
do u usually swap the all dash or just the odometer part.
i can see no numbers stamped in my 716, that is my problem the place where the numbers should be there is none, no plates all gone ;(
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
@Barrote a major problem in swapping in a w202 is that the coolant temp, engine rpm, vehicle speed, glow plug light and probably something more are all driven via CAN-bus. You would have to design a can bus interface using a microcontroller. Also the fuel gauge sender in the w202 works the other way around ie it would show the empty tank with full tank, full tank with empty tank. A W210 cluster would be better in that regard but would still require a CAN bus. Another idea i had is justcripvout the electronics,keep the needle actuators and design your own controll system.
is there any MB pre 95 with a electrical signal odometer ? that fits the w 124 dash? if not wich one is best to stip apart the odometer for a 716. pick up, and were do ii find a signal conversion box that fits weather the trans pick up or the abs sensors?
thanks for the imput.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
come on fellas u just make it much more dificult than it is, let me reask :
is there any MB pre 95 with a electrical signal odometer ? that fits the w 124 dash? if not wich one is best to stip apart the odometer for a 716. pick up, and were do ii find a signal conversion box that fits weather the trans pick up or the abs sensors?
thanks for the imput.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Or, you could buy an electric-to-mechanical drive converter, and try adapting the cable output (which is probably some common Ford or GM drive) to the w124 speedometer.
w126 speedometer/odometer with a signal converter. It's fairly common knowledge that none of the instrument clusters are interchangeable. There are several threads in various MB forums detailing how to modify a w126 speedometer to fit the 124 instrument cluster. If you have a final drive ratio that matches the donor w126, you can even pull the signal converter from the w126; otherwise, there are numerous adjustable signal converters available.
Or, you could buy an electric-to-mechanical drive converter, and try adapting the cable output (which is probably some common Ford or GM drive) to the w124 speedometer.
Quote:is there any MB pre 95 with a electrical signal odometer ? that fits the w 124 dash?again, the w124 400e / e420 and 500e / e500 all have electronic speedos (I think all years, but certainly the late ones do, I have at least one in my pile of parts)
Anyway, that with the pigtail harness plug that plugs into the trans (I think that is what is on the Starboard side of the trans adjacent to the fill port for oil) going thru the dakota digital or similar box would be your best plug and play option...if that plug is for something else, then tying into or adding an additional ABS sensor will get you a signal that the converter box can use.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
04-22-2016, 11:52 PM #26Quote:is there any MB pre 95 with a electrical signal odometer ? that fits the w 124 dash?again, the w124 400e / e420 and 500e / e500 all have electronic speedos (I think all years, but certainly the late ones do, I have at least one in my pile of parts)
Anyway, that with the pigtail harness plug that plugs into the trans (I think that is what is on the Starboard side of the trans adjacent to the fill port for oil) going thru the dakota digital or similar box would be your best plug and play option...if that plug is for something else, then tying into or adding an additional ABS sensor will get you a signal that the converter box can use.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
W124 V8 speedo is rare & expensive 2nd hand - W126 speedo can be had for little money... Bit of cutting & filing, moving rev counter plug & fits: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...4#pid73494
W124 V8 speedo fits without mods, though.
DiseaselWeasel
04-23-2016, 05:10 AM #27Yes. W124 V8 has electric speedo, as do ALL w126. W126 speedo fits with minor modifications into W124 binacle. As for making it work; I'll go for 722.6 automatic with Ole's controller, so there's no worry there. Since it can controll this speedo as well.
W124 V8 speedo is rare & expensive 2nd hand - W126 speedo can be had for little money... Bit of cutting & filing, moving rev counter plug & fits: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...4#pid73494
W124 V8 speedo fits without mods, though.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
04-23-2016, 07:55 PM #28I see them often enough in the yards around San Diego...I'm going to start pulling them every time.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Well, i tought these gearboxes was rock solid. I manage to kill my 3rd gear this evening. But it might be a bad gearbox. Was no problem last summer but i did have a ratteling noise in mine.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
You mentioned running one of the weaker 716.6x boxes...what is the exact model number?
Judging by your sig, you're making some serious power/torque...how much?
What were you doing when 3rd gear let go? Just accelerating, clutch drops, etc? Has this gearbox been exposed to lots of shock-loading?
Sorry to hear, Peter. Are you able to share any details?
You mentioned running one of the weaker 716.6x boxes...what is the exact model number?
Judging by your sig, you're making some serious power/torque...how much?
What were you doing when 3rd gear let go? Just accelerating, clutch drops, etc? Has this gearbox been exposed to lots of shock-loading?
This season i have changed pump from 7,5mm to 8mm also.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Mine was a 716.630. But as i said before, i had some rattle in it from last season when i ran solid flywheel and clutch without dampers. It was abused good (drifting). This season i have clutch with dampers. Have now ordered a 716.630 gearbox with 140,000km on it (low milage).
This season i have changed pump from 7,5mm to 8mm also.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Works very well on the tracks.
Thank god i have a om605 in my w201. Otherwise it would not fitt.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Broke another 716.630 2 weeks ago. Now i mounted the bigger 716.661 SG-S370 from a diesel. Its a bit bigger and 20mm longer then the smaler SG-270 gearbox. Was a little bit of interference in my w201 but it fits. Have lowered the engine 15mm in front and 6mm on the gearbox mount in the back.
Works very well on the tracks.
Thank god i have a om605 in my w201. Otherwise it would not fitt.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Installed a 716,661 and worked like a charm this summer on the drifting track.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
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