Above 5000 rpm power.
Above 5000 rpm power.
whipplem104
03-28-2016, 12:11 PM #1Can anyone provide a dyno sheet of an om606 om605 or similar making power above 5000 rpm. I mean gaining power. Looking at dyno sheets I can find these all peak out tq at around 4-4400rpm and drops off quick with peak hp below 5k. I know everyone likes to rev these up but can it make more power at high rpms? I think that the problem is burn rate is to slow.
Few dyno plots on this page I found.
But any creating power and torque higher than you've stated. Have aftermarket cams and also bigger valves contribute.
http://www.hevosvoima.com/foorumi/viewto...p?f=4&t=52
Few dyno plots on this page I found.
But any creating power and torque higher than you've stated. Have aftermarket cams and also bigger valves contribute.
whipplem104
03-28-2016, 05:57 PM #3That is good but he is also using correction factor on the dyno. But it is still going up until 5000 rpm on torque.
whipplem104
03-29-2016, 08:07 AM #4So Jeemu was the only person to ever make power on the top end? I know some others have run some big turbos. There has to be some reason to have made these big pumps. And if you cannot use it up top then you have to make torque. So there should be some 1000lb/ft of torque dynos going around.
Our cams must run ver conservative duration.
Its like petrol engine run an aggressive cam and you move the power band further along.
Its not often you see people swap out cams other than the very slight N/A cam.
but actual regrind or aggressive cams and ive only ever seen one person swap valves.
I do have 1 other dyno plot on my pc of a car with a tb60 turbo and 1.9bar boost. 550hp and peak torque at 5200-5300 but revs out to 5700.
You do have a point with the big pumps other than shortening the injection duration per event based on smaller pumps.
when i get a spare engine i want to get new cams and springs fitted to see how they compare. a cheap alternative would be to dyno your car with adjustable cam timing and record the difference.
based on the fact om606 cams are designed around a 177hp engine with a flat torque curve and low rpm power, and all engines are air pumps.
Our cams must run ver conservative duration.
Its like petrol engine run an aggressive cam and you move the power band further along.
Its not often you see people swap out cams other than the very slight N/A cam.
but actual regrind or aggressive cams and ive only ever seen one person swap valves.
I do have 1 other dyno plot on my pc of a car with a tb60 turbo and 1.9bar boost. 550hp and peak torque at 5200-5300 but revs out to 5700.
You do have a point with the big pumps other than shortening the injection duration per event based on smaller pumps.
when i get a spare engine i want to get new cams and springs fitted to see how they compare. a cheap alternative would be to dyno your car with adjustable cam timing and record the difference.
But I still wonder how much it is breathing vs burning the fuel. Guess I am going to find out soon enough.
whipplem104
03-29-2016, 08:49 AM #6Well the N/A intake cam is a pretty big change from the turbo one. 1.2mm more lift. It is definitely on the table for getting some custom cam profiles for us. Cam timing is pretty darn good. So I am not sure I would change that.
But I still wonder how much it is breathing vs burning the fuel. Guess I am going to find out soon enough.
This thread has intake cam timings, but not sure if he got the exhaust timings right. The NA cams do have longer duration but both open at the same time. IMO, all good intake cams close too late for high boost forced induction. If an NA cam is installed, the best timing will likely be achieved when there's barely enough overlap to let the engine start reliably on straight diesel fuel.
Gas burner cams can bleed a lot of compression off at overlap and still start fine, so a performance gas cam wouldn't work on a diesel.
raysorenson
03-29-2016, 09:41 AM #8http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...0#pid69480
This thread has intake cam timings, but not sure if he got the exhaust timings right. The NA cams do have longer duration but both open at the same time. IMO, all good intake cams close too late for high boost forced induction. If an NA cam is installed, the best timing will likely be achieved when there's barely enough overlap to let the engine start reliably on straight diesel fuel.
Gas burner cams can bleed a lot of compression off at overlap and still start fine, so a performance gas cam wouldn't work on a diesel.
As far as using 104 cams that is not going to happen. different setup completely.
whipplem104
03-29-2016, 11:23 AM #9I have measured the cams and the profiles and compared to factory specs. There is no overlap not even close. Overlap would be when the exhaust has not closed yet and the intake opens early. So it is not like comparing to regular high performance n/a cams. But even a small amount of overlap if your intake pressure is higher than your exhaust can be good because it purges the cylinder more completely and gets more fresh air in. Not much just a little. I will see what the N/A intake does here in the next couple of days and then if results are good will start looking at it more seriously and the exhaust.
As far as using 104 cams that is not going to happen. different setup completely.
Everybody knows what overlap is. Get too much on a diesel and it only starts on alternative fuel.
raysorenson
03-29-2016, 01:19 PM #10What I'm saying is N/A intake cams close too late for a lot of boost. Advance the timing and it will be better but watch out for too much overlap.
Everybody knows what overlap is. Get too much on a diesel and it only starts on alternative fuel.
whipplem104
03-29-2016, 01:55 PM #11Are you saying it will over fill the cylinder? And compressed pressure will be to high. I do not see how closing at 13 after bdc is all that late. I could see how advancing it one tooth would move it around to open at 1 btdc and close at bdc would be possibly advantageous. and I could see retarding the exhaust cam to close at just before tdc.
One more thing, engines with long stroke/rod length ratios are more sensitive to late intake closing because the piston has less dwell at BDC than engines with shorter stroke/rod lenths. The OM60x motors have extremely long stroke/rod length ratios. An example of this would be the SBC 400 vs the SBC 350. The 400 has a shorter rod to accommodate a longer stroke in the same deck height as a 350. An optimized came for a 400 will have a later intake closing than an optimized cam for a 350.
raysorenson
03-29-2016, 02:30 PM #12Closing the intake too late can cause the charge in the intake port to reverse flow as the piston rises. Engines with significant boost cannot take advantage of the late intake closings like N/A motors. That is why the intake valve closes so much earlier on the turbo motor VS the NA motor. This is also true of every modern VAG motor that has both an FI version and an NA version.
One more thing, engines with long stroke/rod length ratios are more sensitive to late intake closing because the piston has less dwell at BDC than engines with shorter stroke/rod lenths. The OM60x motors have extremely long stroke/rod length ratios. An example of this would be the SBC 400 vs the SBC 350. The 400 has a shorter rod to accommodate a longer stroke in the same deck height as a 350. An optimized came for a 400 will have a later intake closing than an optimized cam for a 350.
but maybe now since u mention i may give it a try
since the turbo cam is laying around....Many people are convinced the N/A cam is a must ... due higher lift...
FD,
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personally i have a N/A intake cam , never used a turbo one.... when the engine came to me had a N/A head installed , always dought the benefit of it, but swapping the thing compared to what i have tried in other engines always seemed waste of time....
but maybe now since u mention i may give it a try since the turbo cam is laying around....
Many people are convinced the N/A cam is a must ... due higher lift...
FD,
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whipplem104
03-29-2016, 03:34 PM #14I was talking to a friend that does a lot of cam work. I was thinking the same thing that the stock timing is pretty good for all around and advancing the intake cam on boost will actually rob filling. You should not have reversion on boost. It would be the other way around. As the cylinder fills velocity slows down and pressure equalizes. But with boost you have 30,40,50 psi still shoving air in the cylinder. And it is still before it reaches bdc or in the bdc dwell.
The optimum point to open the intake valve is when the pressure in the cylinder equals the pressure in the inlet manifold. Opening it any earlier is detrimental as you'll get reversion which actually reduces the amount of air it's able to draw in.
When the pressure is equalled depends a lot on the exhaust side of the engine, turbo, exhaust manifold, exhaust ports. An inefficient turbo with high drive pressure will favour late intake valve opening while a highly efficient exhaust tract that's able to scavenge the cylinder effectively will let you utilise the velocity of the exhaust at the end of the exhaust event to accelerate the incoming air by the means of valve overlap.
Baldur Gislason
A little bit on valve timing.
The optimum point to open the intake valve is when the pressure in the cylinder equals the pressure in the inlet manifold. Opening it any earlier is detrimental as you'll get reversion which actually reduces the amount of air it's able to draw in.
When the pressure is equalled depends a lot on the exhaust side of the engine, turbo, exhaust manifold, exhaust ports. An inefficient turbo with high drive pressure will favour late intake valve opening while a highly efficient exhaust tract that's able to scavenge the cylinder effectively will let you utilise the velocity of the exhaust at the end of the exhaust event to accelerate the incoming air by the means of valve overlap.
Baldur Gislason
whipplem104
03-29-2016, 04:30 PM #16It is also about time open and where the cylinder is during that time. If the cylinder is at the top or more towards the top then it has less volume. But since we are not dealing with any overlap in this scenario intake and exhaust timing is mute to each other. It is also really not adjustable independent of each other or by the timing gear. Those all have to much adjustment. THe cam sprocket is roughly 19 crk degrees. and the gear drive is 17 crk degrees for each tooth. So theoretically you could advance the intake one tooth but you would be robbing cylinder filling at higher engine speeds in favor of torque. Also there is valve clearance to consider.
(03-29-2016, 04:30 PM)whipplem104 It is also about time open and where the cylinder is during that time. If the cylinder is at the top or more towards the top then it has less volume. But since we are not dealing with any overlap in this scenario intake and exhaust timing is mute to each other. It is also really not adjustable independent of each other or by the timing gear. Those all have to much adjustment. THe cam sprocket is roughly 19 crk degrees. and the gear drive is 17 crk degrees for each tooth. So theoretically you could advance the intake one tooth but you would be robbing cylinder filling at higher engine speeds in favor of torque. Also there is valve clearance to consider.
an interesting thread to be sure.
for my money I would just call km cams or cat cams and ask them what they have done or can do to meet your goals. buy a set and iterate from there. it is a grand to find out or 500 to regrind your cams at km.
atypicalguy
04-09-2016, 07:59 AM #17(03-29-2016, 04:30 PM)whipplem104 It is also about time open and where the cylinder is during that time. If the cylinder is at the top or more towards the top then it has less volume. But since we are not dealing with any overlap in this scenario intake and exhaust timing is mute to each other. It is also really not adjustable independent of each other or by the timing gear. Those all have to much adjustment. THe cam sprocket is roughly 19 crk degrees. and the gear drive is 17 crk degrees for each tooth. So theoretically you could advance the intake one tooth but you would be robbing cylinder filling at higher engine speeds in favor of torque. Also there is valve clearance to consider.
an interesting thread to be sure.
for my money I would just call km cams or cat cams and ask them what they have done or can do to meet your goals. buy a set and iterate from there. it is a grand to find out or 500 to regrind your cams at km.
whipplem104
04-09-2016, 10:07 AM #18I do not like regrinds unless they are welded up and keep the base circle correst. Last thing these need is shorter duration. If we go that route it will be a different setup. I have other companies that I use for this kind of stuff anyways here in the U.S.
For sure I am no expert. My thought again is to slavishly copy what is known to work. This is a nice thread for challenging conventional wisdom on the limits of performance and knowledge though.
atypicalguy
04-09-2016, 12:44 PM #19I had the same thought on the regrind, but presumably we are not the only ones with that idea. In any event nothing a phone call could not sort out.
For sure I am no expert. My thought again is to slavishly copy what is known to work. This is a nice thread for challenging conventional wisdom on the limits of performance and knowledge though.
So the question is really what is known to work. That is the point of a thread like this. Is there is nothing known to work. And I am starting to lean more and more towards this is not an air or fuel delivery issue at all and simply the fastest you can burn diesel. We are going to do some more testing on our setup to see but I have a feeling that this is it. So then we will refocus on broadening the power down in the rpms and use some more wastegating on the top end for flow.
whipplem104
04-10-2016, 09:02 AM #20People like regrinds because they are cheap. In some cases there is nothing wrong with them. But if you are an overhead with a bucket style setup like these the base circle gets small. People say just shim it. Well there are a lot of questions that should be asked and answered before you do that and lift is not everything. Duration is sometimes more important. And a regrind really cannot add that at all.
So the question is really what is known to work. That is the point of a thread like this. Is there is nothing known to work. And I am starting to lean more and more towards this is not an air or fuel delivery issue at all and simply the fastest you can burn diesel. We are going to do some more testing on our setup to see but I have a feeling that this is it. So then we will refocus on broadening the power down in the rpms and use some more wastegating on the top end for flow.
1987 Mazda B2200 "outlaw" **planning phase** Chevy 283, Power Pack heads, Edelbrock carb and intake, turbo 350 trans
1985 Mercedes 300D stock for now
Too bad there isn't a way to do variable valve timing on these engines like Honda and Toyota do. That would be too difficult to setup after market.
1987 Mazda B2200 "outlaw" **planning phase** Chevy 283, Power Pack heads, Edelbrock carb and intake, turbo 350 trans
1985 Mercedes 300D stock for now
It doesn't work the same in this application. Due to no throttle body or restriction along the inlet, and also most applications have suitably sized turbos. So low down power is never an issue.
But a decent set of cams is definitely something we don't have for these engines.
I agree with not liking cam regrinds and making the base circle smaller and reprofiled your left with steeper angle changes on the cam, also the issue of hardness unless there hardened properly.
I've never seen variable cam timing or valve lift on a diesel engine.
It doesn't work the same in this application. Due to no throttle body or restriction along the inlet, and also most applications have suitably sized turbos. So low down power is never an issue.
But a decent set of cams is definitely something we don't have for these engines.
I agree with not liking cam regrinds and making the base circle smaller and reprofiled your left with steeper angle changes on the cam, also the issue of hardness unless there hardened properly.
Like I said I will play with the timing up and down and see if there is anything to be had but I really am starting to believe that not much can be done up top.
whipplem104
04-10-2016, 03:20 PM #23Bottom line is I think that breathing more air is not the issue. I think you could double the air in the cylinder at 6000 rpm and not make any more power. If the fuel will not burn fast enough at those rpm then it is done. It is still a combustion engine. I also think that this is why egts start going up so high. The fuel is not burning in the combustion chamber. There simply is not enough time. Even if the heads and camshafts were really holding us back turning up the boost should still show noticeable gains. And we did not really see any gains going from 35psi to 50psi. Same fuel settings we did not have less smoke. More fuel just turned into heat.
Like I said I will play with the timing up and down and see if there is anything to be had but I really am starting to believe that not much can be done up top.
are u familiar with off road motorcycles? when the 4 stroke bikes start to apear , people just didn´t gave them credit....over the 2 stroke... after some basic engine design they just florished... and this days no one is wiling to ride a 2 stroke....
I belive same happens with the diesel engine, diesels like ours IDI engines were not made to turn high, most not to say all are undersquare, have pretty huge and heavy internals and u know F=m.a , this receipt is not good for high revs.
Today´s DI´s high pressure injection engines are turning more twards high reving machines , they tend to have wider pistons and less internall drag, but the thing remains now they will not evolve due to enviromental constraints, in europe the birth of the diesel is almost dead cause diesels are said to polutte a lot.
One day thecnic will be able to produce a diesel with very low drag, high oversquared , that will be able to produce monstrous power btw 5 and 10k but it has to go in the races before.... can u imagine a F1 diesel ?
this is to say that from my experience , wich is none compared some people here, our diesels use lots of power to rev high, the lack of power in the high end is most likely to be heavy usage of energy to maintain reving than the burning pace.
regards
FD,
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hy people,
are u familiar with off road motorcycles? when the 4 stroke bikes start to apear , people just didn´t gave them credit....over the 2 stroke... after some basic engine design they just florished... and this days no one is wiling to ride a 2 stroke....
I belive same happens with the diesel engine, diesels like ours IDI engines were not made to turn high, most not to say all are undersquare, have pretty huge and heavy internals and u know F=m.a , this receipt is not good for high revs.
Today´s DI´s high pressure injection engines are turning more twards high reving machines , they tend to have wider pistons and less internall drag, but the thing remains now they will not evolve due to enviromental constraints, in europe the birth of the diesel is almost dead cause diesels are said to polutte a lot.
One day thecnic will be able to produce a diesel with very low drag, high oversquared , that will be able to produce monstrous power btw 5 and 10k but it has to go in the races before.... can u imagine a F1 diesel ?
this is to say that from my experience , wich is none compared some people here, our diesels use lots of power to rev high, the lack of power in the high end is most likely to be heavy usage of energy to maintain reving than the burning pace.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(04-10-2016, 03:20 PM)whipplem104 Bottom line is I think that breathing more air is not the issue. I think you could double the air in the cylinder at 6000 rpm and not make any more power. If the fuel will not burn fast enough at those rpm then it is done. It is still a combustion engine. I also think that this is why egts start going up so high. The fuel is not burning in the combustion chamber. There simply is not enough time. Even if the heads and camshafts were really holding us back turning up the boost should still show noticeable gains. And we did not really see any gains going from 35psi to 50psi. Same fuel settings we did not have less smoke. More fuel just turned into heat.
Like I said I will play with the timing up and down and see if there is anything to be had but I really am starting to believe that not much can be done up top.
What turbine and housing A/R (or CSA)?
Two of the gassers I've tuned, both with restrictive exhaust housings, showed no improvement in E/T or trap speed at the strip despite increasing boost 8-10 psi. One of the cars datalogs EGT, picked up 400-500F with the change. AFR was fine in both cases.
IMO, you get to a point where the turbine/housing is such a significant choke to flow, the cylinder isn't adequately evacuated and your intake charge is mixing with the previous combustion gases.
Do you datalog exhaust backpressure?
(04-10-2016, 03:20 PM)whipplem104 Bottom line is I think that breathing more air is not the issue. I think you could double the air in the cylinder at 6000 rpm and not make any more power. If the fuel will not burn fast enough at those rpm then it is done. It is still a combustion engine. I also think that this is why egts start going up so high. The fuel is not burning in the combustion chamber. There simply is not enough time. Even if the heads and camshafts were really holding us back turning up the boost should still show noticeable gains. And we did not really see any gains going from 35psi to 50psi. Same fuel settings we did not have less smoke. More fuel just turned into heat.
Like I said I will play with the timing up and down and see if there is anything to be had but I really am starting to believe that not much can be done up top.
What turbine and housing A/R (or CSA)?
Two of the gassers I've tuned, both with restrictive exhaust housings, showed no improvement in E/T or trap speed at the strip despite increasing boost 8-10 psi. One of the cars datalogs EGT, picked up 400-500F with the change. AFR was fine in both cases.
IMO, you get to a point where the turbine/housing is such a significant choke to flow, the cylinder isn't adequately evacuated and your intake charge is mixing with the previous combustion gases.
Do you datalog exhaust backpressure?
Is even though these engines rev to 6k-7k
Do they actual produce real power at this level and how efficiently.
Is the burn rate of diesel fast enough at this speed and what factors affect it.
So to list a few ,
piston/ stroke ratio,
Accelerating mass (piston, rod)
Cam timing, duration, lift
Valve sizes,
Valve springs,
Piston shape, compression ratio,
Injection timing,
Injection duration,
Injection type (idi , direct injection)
Exhaust or turbine back pressure and diameter.
Fuel burn rate,
Fuel burn based on higher compression pressures and varied timing.
I think what whipplem104 is more directing towards
Is even though these engines rev to 6k-7k
Do they actual produce real power at this level and how efficiently.
Is the burn rate of diesel fast enough at this speed and what factors affect it.
So to list a few ,
piston/ stroke ratio,
Accelerating mass (piston, rod)
Cam timing, duration, lift
Valve sizes,
Valve springs,
Piston shape, compression ratio,
Injection timing,
Injection duration,
Injection type (idi , direct injection)
Exhaust or turbine back pressure and diameter.
Fuel burn rate,
Fuel burn based on higher compression pressures and varied timing.
(04-10-2016, 05:20 PM)seanyt I'm sure I've missed a few items that affect this from the list.
Another is AFR. It doesn't seem to be discussed much WRT diesels, but air/fuel mixtures that are rich burn quicker than mixtures that are lean.
I went and read whipplem104's build thread, and I wouldn't think that Borg Warner to be short on the turbine/housing end...so that seems to nix my idea. I suppose I'm still scratching my head at the fact the additional boost didn't decrease the smoke (if that can be a reliable indication he's not leaning it out even with higher boost), unless he has a muffler downstream that is undersized or cannot handle the particulate, causing a restriction.
(04-10-2016, 05:20 PM)seanyt I'm sure I've missed a few items that affect this from the list.
Another is AFR. It doesn't seem to be discussed much WRT diesels, but air/fuel mixtures that are rich burn quicker than mixtures that are lean.
I went and read whipplem104's build thread, and I wouldn't think that Borg Warner to be short on the turbine/housing end...so that seems to nix my idea. I suppose I'm still scratching my head at the fact the additional boost didn't decrease the smoke (if that can be a reliable indication he's not leaning it out even with higher boost), unless he has a muffler downstream that is undersized or cannot handle the particulate, causing a restriction.
And yes the turbo is more than sufficient.
It has a super stroker pump.
I see what you are saying about the stroke but I do not see how that is an issue for diesels. The gas engine which use the same cranks and similar bores have no problem making power in the high rpms. Diesels have long burn time so a long stroke should be advantageous, as long as you can get the flame going in time. Which would be an advance issue.
whipplem104
04-10-2016, 09:20 PM #29The car does not have an exhaust on it at all. 4" downpipe and after it turns it is about 1' long. Open. If this thing does not breathe then nothing will. Even if the exhaust housing was to small I could run more wastegate flow to keep the overall exhaust flow high.
And yes the turbo is more than sufficient.
It has a super stroker pump.
I see what you are saying about the stroke but I do not see how that is an issue for diesels. The gas engine which use the same cranks and similar bores have no problem making power in the high rpms. Diesels have long burn time so a long stroke should be advantageous, as long as you can get the flame going in time. Which would be an advance issue.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
How about letting the advance mechanism on the gear be able to advance it more on high rpm? You can cut a bit on the stops for maximum advance.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
whipplem104
04-11-2016, 12:01 PM #32That is the idea. I am going to do 4500-6000 rpm pulls and adjust the timing and see what the optimal timing is at those rpms. Then modify the advance mech. to allow more timing. Advance ends at 4600-4800 rpm. Which is a to convenient to the power curve falling off. If you look at the timing curve it basically shows a degree per 288 rpm. If you continue this up it would be another 4 degrees of advance to 6k.
whipplem104
04-11-2016, 01:08 PM #33N/A advance mechanism has about .85mm more travel. Which if you divide the total advance in the book it is about .53mm per degree of advance. This would also make sense since the rev limit on the n/a om606 is higher than the turbo engine.
Increasing boost and not gaining mass air flow (losing smoke) points my mind toward a restriction somewhere, something like the intercooler isn't doing as well as it could, the turbo's improperly sized, or internal engine concerns like valve float.
I'd start off with seeing what kind of backpressure you've got, plug a gauge in the manifold in the place of the pyro, and if that is reasonable (increase the boost, and see if exhaust pressure increases faster than boost pressure) then start looking at your temp and pressure drop across the intercooler and other things.
The common theme for high revs seems to be crazy timing advance (30 degrees on a 1.9 TDI, 40+ on a b-series cummins) and huge turbos to handle the air needed (60mm inducer on a 1.9, twin hx82s atmospheric on a B-series). People also seem to be able to make stupid power with very low timing advance (20 degrees on a 1.9L) provided they can move the air to actually use the fuel they're putting in. Cummins heads flow like shit, and there's no real good way to port them as the intake is cast as one with the head, so guys run 100+ PSI of boost to get the mass air flow needed.
Increasing boost and not gaining mass air flow (losing smoke) points my mind toward a restriction somewhere, something like the intercooler isn't doing as well as it could, the turbo's improperly sized, or internal engine concerns like valve float.
I'd start off with seeing what kind of backpressure you've got, plug a gauge in the manifold in the place of the pyro, and if that is reasonable (increase the boost, and see if exhaust pressure increases faster than boost pressure) then start looking at your temp and pressure drop across the intercooler and other things.
It does not act like air flow either. If we were reaching a limit of that kind it would be more severe. And the limit on hp at high rpms is reached at well below 40psi.
The injection timing is an interesting though. I have looked at tdi forums and cummins and I cannot find a single dyno chart or some actual indication that anyone is making big power up in the high revs from any platform. I have seen people claim power number but nothing to correlate it to reality.
whipplem104
04-12-2016, 01:47 PM #35Thanks for the input. I am not concerned in the slightest about exh or intake flow. Boost is being measured at the intake and exhaust is running at below 1:1 ratio. We did not accidentally pick the turbo or the intercooler. All the math was done on peak flow and parts were chosen accordingly. The intercooler has a cfm rating at above 1100cfm and the cooling is spot on to the turbo map and efficiency rating on the intercooler being at 85%. Waste gates are requiring around 10-15psi less pressure to hold them at boost. So for instance we have a 7lb spring in the wastegates and run 12psi on the gate to target 30+psi of boost. We reach max boost pressure of 50 psi in the intake long before I get to 40psi on the gate. I can run wastegating in fact still.
It does not act like air flow either. If we were reaching a limit of that kind it would be more severe. And the limit on hp at high rpms is reached at well below 40psi.
The injection timing is an interesting though. I have looked at tdi forums and cummins and I cannot find a single dyno chart or some actual indication that anyone is making big power up in the high revs from any platform. I have seen people claim power number but nothing to correlate it to reality.
The reason I started the thread was to see if anyone had made power up top but it seems not. I am not upset with the power the car makes and am confident I will get some more out of it but thought since everyone likes to rev these up so high that there was a reason to. We are not choking up top. It just flat lines. Just like every other dyno chart you see.
whipplem104
04-12-2016, 03:01 PM #37Going to but have to wait for a solution for the harmonic balancer to come in. It will be a few months. In the mean time other fish to fry. Also I do not like the advance being so high at base setting.
The reason I started the thread was to see if anyone had made power up top but it seems not. I am not upset with the power the car makes and am confident I will get some more out of it but thought since everyone likes to rev these up so high that there was a reason to. We are not choking up top. It just flat lines. Just like every other dyno chart you see.
(04-12-2016, 03:01 PM)whipplem104 Also I do not like the advance being so high at base setting.
You seem to have all of your bases covered pumping air from inlet to tailpipe...if you're indeed running out of time to burn the fuel, then either you need more lead, or larger elements to inject the requisite volume of fuel over lesser duration. Sorry, I have no firsthand experience in the matter.
(04-12-2016, 03:01 PM)whipplem104 Also I do not like the advance being so high at base setting.
You seem to have all of your bases covered pumping air from inlet to tailpipe...if you're indeed running out of time to burn the fuel, then either you need more lead, or larger elements to inject the requisite volume of fuel over lesser duration. Sorry, I have no firsthand experience in the matter.
(04-10-2016, 03:39 PM)barrote and this days no one is wiling to ride a 2 stroke....
We are a couple of people who do, and some do on racing to, where higher power and less weight is still desirable, if not KTM would not develop a 300CC 2-stroke
(who i long for
)al this is interesting, ive been thinking about doing a NA swap on future builds, but might keep the Turbo..
regarding RPM ive heard from the "diesel experts" over here in gothenburg that anything above 6k RPM would be "useless" since the speed the diesel burns is the limit, its possible to rev this high, but wont gain any power.
Althou those arent that into the whole superturbodiesel, and Dieselmeken and Mynä might have some other idea, but i feel some logic is in the claim, seeing no acctual use/dynograph where people rev a diesel above 6000rpm and making more power.
A turbo that "ends" at 5500-6000rpm in flow seems like a good option, and thus having some bottom-end punch
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
swampmonkey
04-12-2016, 05:59 PM #39(04-10-2016, 03:39 PM)barrote and this days no one is wiling to ride a 2 stroke....
We are a couple of people who do, and some do on racing to, where higher power and less weight is still desirable, if not KTM would not develop a 300CC 2-stroke
(who i long for
)al this is interesting, ive been thinking about doing a NA swap on future builds, but might keep the Turbo..
regarding RPM ive heard from the "diesel experts" over here in gothenburg that anything above 6k RPM would be "useless" since the speed the diesel burns is the limit, its possible to rev this high, but wont gain any power.
Althou those arent that into the whole superturbodiesel, and Dieselmeken and Mynä might have some other idea, but i feel some logic is in the claim, seeing no acctual use/dynograph where people rev a diesel above 6000rpm and making more power.
A turbo that "ends" at 5500-6000rpm in flow seems like a good option, and thus having some bottom-end punch
---------------------------------
daily driver
w115 240d 72hp 3.07 rearend
w123 om602 turbo 200whp 7.5mm pump fivespeed 3.07 rearend
+ a few more.
mbturbo.com
I did take the advance mech and measure the actual advance. I was wrong at least read the info wrong about the advance. I am not sure what the curve illustration was indicating or if it was just an example. It has a total of 23 degrees of crank angle advance. I am going to do a full rpm sweep with a timing light and see what the curve looks like. There is room for adding some more advance to the mech. We measured it out to the gap and total travel and I feel comfortable getting some more out of it if it shows to be worth it.
Also I am going to try and get the start of injection on this pump. I asked Dieselmeken and did not get a response. I did retard the timing the other day and the engine actually revved up a few hundred rpm at idle so that tells me that it was to early.
whipplem104
04-12-2016, 07:56 PM #40I was reading a bit and it seems like the delay time to ignite would be a big issue as well. So you have ignition delay, slow burn rate. And maybe an injection duration issue.
I did take the advance mech and measure the actual advance. I was wrong at least read the info wrong about the advance. I am not sure what the curve illustration was indicating or if it was just an example. It has a total of 23 degrees of crank angle advance. I am going to do a full rpm sweep with a timing light and see what the curve looks like. There is room for adding some more advance to the mech. We measured it out to the gap and total travel and I feel comfortable getting some more out of it if it shows to be worth it.
Also I am going to try and get the start of injection on this pump. I asked Dieselmeken and did not get a response. I did retard the timing the other day and the engine actually revved up a few hundred rpm at idle so that tells me that it was to early.
It would be useful to be able to measure injection duration.
raysorenson
04-12-2016, 09:38 PM #41It might be useless to compare timing curves with gas engines, if you're tempted. 2t gassers retard timing once they come on the pipe and stay retarded. The theory is turbulence in the combustion chamber increases flame propagation rate so no additional advance is needed. This is also true of 4 stroke gassers. They stop advancing timing at some point in the rpm range for the same stated reasons. Diesels rely on diffusion, not propagation. Combustion chamber turbulence is doesn't help much if the fuel doesn't arrive in time. Maybe working on the PC's would help here, in addition to timing work.
It would be useful to be able to measure injection duration.
(04-12-2016, 05:59 PM)swampmonkeyU dont need to wait that much , u can just buy a Gas Gas 300 for half the price, and then ride with the 450´s , and report back(04-10-2016, 03:39 PM)barrote and this days no one is wiling to ride a 2 stroke....
We are a couple of people who do, and some do on racing to, where higher power and less weight is still desirable, if not KTM would not develop a 300CC 2-stroke
(who i long for
IDI engines , do turn fast , about the power they produce , i´m almost like any other here , have two 605 STD either pushes til 6.5 but after 5.5 is time to change gear.... but my engines run strugled by EGP at that speed, but once i tryed some modded cups and timmings and the power band moved way up , at least 5.8 /6 in that área , but the nailing noise was terrible, so changed to mild modded cups , and now i wait for the next move wich is a DI trial in a engine i´m building.
DI ´s dont turn that fast either, the only stock engines i´ve know turning in the 6k área or able to reach there are the mazda 6 engine,
but that is a DI electronic controlled pump with mech injectors dual stage , the common rails i´ve seen stay in the 4.5 band .
maybe this new ultra high pressure common rails can reach those speeds, volvo claims to have one 4 cyl 2liter producing more power that a V8.
but i´ve seen vídeos of 606´s turning at 6.5 /7 , but a vid is a vid.
FD,
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(04-12-2016, 05:59 PM)swampmonkeyU dont need to wait that much , u can just buy a Gas Gas 300 for half the price, and then ride with the 450´s , and report back(04-10-2016, 03:39 PM)barrote and this days no one is wiling to ride a 2 stroke....
We are a couple of people who do, and some do on racing to, where higher power and less weight is still desirable, if not KTM would not develop a 300CC 2-stroke
(who i long for
IDI engines , do turn fast , about the power they produce , i´m almost like any other here , have two 605 STD either pushes til 6.5 but after 5.5 is time to change gear.... but my engines run strugled by EGP at that speed, but once i tryed some modded cups and timmings and the power band moved way up , at least 5.8 /6 in that área , but the nailing noise was terrible, so changed to mild modded cups , and now i wait for the next move wich is a DI trial in a engine i´m building.
DI ´s dont turn that fast either, the only stock engines i´ve know turning in the 6k área or able to reach there are the mazda 6 engine,
but that is a DI electronic controlled pump with mech injectors dual stage , the common rails i´ve seen stay in the 4.5 band .
maybe this new ultra high pressure common rails can reach those speeds, volvo claims to have one 4 cyl 2liter producing more power that a V8.
but i´ve seen vídeos of 606´s turning at 6.5 /7 , but a vid is a vid.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
I can add a little input.... I run an HE351VE and I had crower do some regrinds on my intake and exhaust. I had to add shims on the intake valves under the bucket but only on the intake side. They couldnt go as big on the exhaust for some reason. I also run KM springs. I do know adding the cams has moved my power band up. I dont have a dyno graph but on my trans controller I have shift points for my winter map at 5.5k so it probably completes the shift around 5.7k and in my sport mode the mapping is setup to shift at 6.1k so probably shifts around 6.3k. I have a bunch of friends whose cars are fairly close to mine and by shifting at the higher RPM I am able to beat them by more cars by shifting at the higher RPM. I have ran my car up to 7k but i wasn't sure it was making much more power up top so I didnt keep running it that high. Its possible it does but I also still have the hydraulic lifters and I have a feeling it would start to collapse the buckets at the higher revs because after a few runs with 7k shifting the lifters would get some lash and have valve tick. So again with my regrinds its possible it makes more power up top but I just haven't done any racing with my shift points back to back with friends cars to know for sure. I will keep fallowing this topic to see where it goes.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
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