EGP / MAP ratio
EGP / MAP ratio
This last few days i´ve been wondering some experiment.... since i can´t achieve more than 2.5 bar boost with decent numbers in EGP ,
have plans to try a sequential setup , but as everithing in live is my first time with this type of set up.
the problem that comes to my mind wich will limit the max boost will be EGP above specially above 4 k.
Have u guys measured some numbers on this ratio, or what do u think is a good ratio, even for a single turbo?
engine will be a 605, head assy heavily modded.
FD,
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Hello fine people,
This last few days i´ve been wondering some experiment.... since i can´t achieve more than 2.5 bar boost with decent numbers in EGP ,
have plans to try a sequential setup , but as everithing in live is my first time with this type of set up.
the problem that comes to my mind wich will limit the max boost will be EGP above specially above 4 k.
Have u guys measured some numbers on this ratio, or what do u think is a good ratio, even for a single turbo?
engine will be a 605, head assy heavily modded.
FD,
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Baldur Gislason
Anything under 2:1 is okay IMO. I've been able to see close to 1:1 on a carefully matched turbo operating at maximum efficiency, but in most cases the turbine inlet pressure will be higher than the boost pressure by quite a bit. If the turbo is fairly efficient but not oversized I'd expect the turbine inlet pressure to be around 30-40% greater than boost pressure, from my experience.
Baldur Gislason
i´ve been doing something in the 1:1 but not all the time, like when the engine needs most it 1.5k to 2.5k can go peak 3:1 then when MAP matches 2.5 bar it lower sometimes to 2bar after 3 .5 k start to rise again to 4/5 times. but this is due the turbo being a VNT, and the turbine beeing a litle small, even with a bleed system .
thats why i want to try turbos in sequence... to use the bleed gases along with the used ones in the LP turbine.
we´ll see how it will "grow up"
regards
FD,
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Hy baldur ,
i´ve been doing something in the 1:1 but not all the time, like when the engine needs most it 1.5k to 2.5k can go peak 3:1 then when MAP matches 2.5 bar it lower sometimes to 2bar after 3 .5 k start to rise again to 4/5 times. but this is due the turbo being a VNT, and the turbine beeing a litle small, even with a bleed system .
thats why i want to try turbos in sequence... to use the bleed gases along with the used ones in the LP turbine.
we´ll see how it will "grow up"
regards
FD,
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Running one as a HP turbo in a compound setup will increase the mass flow across the turbine somewhat as it'll be under pressure from the LP turbine, but you'll want to actually use that extra air to burn more fuel, and you're right back where you started with too little turbine choke flow. Clip the wheel and reduce it to a stone age windmill, fit a larger turbine and/or go up a frame size to get a larger vane mechanism, or finally add on an external wastegate past the HP turbine housing.
google "cheap dumb compound setup" for my TDI VNT-compound shenanigans.
If I were doing it again, I'd go all wastegated.
vnt brings a whole different set of learning into the equation, on spoolup you'll see really high exhaust pressures with a shitty remap (or just more fuel and no remapping in the turbo control)
Running one as a HP turbo in a compound setup will increase the mass flow across the turbine somewhat as it'll be under pressure from the LP turbine, but you'll want to actually use that extra air to burn more fuel, and you're right back where you started with too little turbine choke flow. Clip the wheel and reduce it to a stone age windmill, fit a larger turbine and/or go up a frame size to get a larger vane mechanism, or finally add on an external wastegate past the HP turbine housing.
google "cheap dumb compound setup" for my TDI VNT-compound shenanigans.
If I were doing it again, I'd go all wastegated.
I belive we are talking about diferent things , my engine compared to a TDI is like comparing a man to a boy.
)I wrote above that i´m doing 1:1 ratios with boost at 3.5 absolute pressure... what i want is to be in the 5 bar with the ratio still 1/1 , since in my set up controling EGP is just a mater of springs and screws , and yes there is 2 waste gates on the system, one for the HP and another for the LP if need be.
Thanks for your input , theres something u said that interests me , wich is "CLIP THE Wheel" what u mean by that?
still interested i knowing what people have as EGP/ MAP ratios in there set ups.
thanks
BTW , my pump delivers 220cc if need be
FD,
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Thanks [486]
I belive we are talking about diferent things , my engine compared to a TDI is like comparing a man to a boy. )
I wrote above that i´m doing 1:1 ratios with boost at 3.5 absolute pressure... what i want is to be in the 5 bar with the ratio still 1/1 , since in my set up controling EGP is just a mater of springs and screws , and yes there is 2 waste gates on the system, one for the HP and another for the LP if need be.
Thanks for your input , theres something u said that interests me , wich is "CLIP THE Wheel" what u mean by that?
still interested i knowing what people have as EGP/ MAP ratios in there set ups.
thanks
BTW , my pump delivers 220cc if need be
FD,
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raysorenson
05-05-2016, 10:36 AM #6Turbine clipping is cutting the turbine wheel to increase flow. Bad idea.
(05-04-2016, 01:47 AM)barrote Thanks [486]Bypassed exhaust doesn't put energy into the turbine though, so while changing up the wastegate is reducing your exhaust manifold pressure, you aren't gaining anything on the intake manifold side from that exhaust gas' energy. Thus a larger turbine, to actually utilize the expansion and cooling of the exhaust to drive a suitable compressor wheel at higher pressure ratio and therefore mass flow.
I belive we are talking about diferent things , my engine compared to a TDI is like comparing a man to a boy.
Eh, scale my junk up and it's close enough to your junk. Doesn't matter what badge is on the front, an engine is an engine. A VNT turbine's a VNT turbine, whether its inducer's 45mm or 90mm.
I wrote above that i´m doing 1:1 ratios with boost at 3.5 absolute pressure... what i want is to be in the 5 bar with the ratio still 1/1 , since in my set up controling EGP is just a mater of springs and screws
Edit to add: mine's currently also doing 3.5 BAR absolute, but with 40 PSI in the exhaust manifold. I've run out of fuel, so I haven't bothered looking into fine tuning the pressure ratios of the stages yet, bigger injectors were supposed to show up today...
Yup, that's why I was comparing it to making the turbine into a windmill.
(05-04-2016, 01:47 AM)barrote Thanks [486]Bypassed exhaust doesn't put energy into the turbine though, so while changing up the wastegate is reducing your exhaust manifold pressure, you aren't gaining anything on the intake manifold side from that exhaust gas' energy. Thus a larger turbine, to actually utilize the expansion and cooling of the exhaust to drive a suitable compressor wheel at higher pressure ratio and therefore mass flow.
I belive we are talking about diferent things , my engine compared to a TDI is like comparing a man to a boy.
Eh, scale my junk up and it's close enough to your junk. Doesn't matter what badge is on the front, an engine is an engine. A VNT turbine's a VNT turbine, whether its inducer's 45mm or 90mm.
I wrote above that i´m doing 1:1 ratios with boost at 3.5 absolute pressure... what i want is to be in the 5 bar with the ratio still 1/1 , since in my set up controling EGP is just a mater of springs and screws
Edit to add: mine's currently also doing 3.5 BAR absolute, but with 40 PSI in the exhaust manifold. I've run out of fuel, so I haven't bothered looking into fine tuning the pressure ratios of the stages yet, bigger injectors were supposed to show up today...
I have been developing a low press DI , something in the 350bar, out of a OM602, this boy is to be 100hp cylinder or 30 and then is junk.
Don´t take the "boy" thing that personall
What is interesting to discuss is that u too are doing in the 1:1 ratio or similar , 3.5 and 40psi dada almost 1:1 ...
The reason i want a VNT as HP is the easy spool ability and amount (volume) of gas need for that , like this i can divert the remaining for the LP one wich is not so LP one. will be a Holset crap 35 or 40 wich i hope to give me enough air for those 100 cylinder. With that ratio of 1:1 or better. 5bar absolute is what i consider can be achieved at full pull , and maybe not even the engine will handle it... i´ll see.... afterwards.
so opinions on the matter are well apreciated...
BTW u´re talking about the VW injector units so called PD engine ? those i never messed with , but i had done a VE EDC for a TDI with 12mm and 150cc , 120cc in the dual stage , works great ... can´t clean up smoke...
FD,
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Hello mr [486]
I have been developing a low press DI , something in the 350bar, out of a OM602, this boy is to be 100hp cylinder or 30 and then is junk.
Don´t take the "boy" thing that personall
What is interesting to discuss is that u too are doing in the 1:1 ratio or similar , 3.5 and 40psi dada almost 1:1 ...
The reason i want a VNT as HP is the easy spool ability and amount (volume) of gas need for that , like this i can divert the remaining for the LP one wich is not so LP one. will be a Holset crap 35 or 40 wich i hope to give me enough air for those 100 cylinder. With that ratio of 1:1 or better. 5bar absolute is what i consider can be achieved at full pull , and maybe not even the engine will handle it... i´ll see.... afterwards.
so opinions on the matter are well apreciated...
BTW u´re talking about the VW injector units so called PD engine ? those i never messed with , but i had done a VE EDC for a TDI with 12mm and 150cc , 120cc in the dual stage , works great ... can´t clean up smoke...
FD,
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(05-05-2016, 11:54 PM)barrote Hello mr [486]No, I'm running a VP-37 pump with the bosch EDC15
I have been developing a low press DI , something in the 350bar, out of a OM602, this boy is to be 100hp cylinder or 30 and then is junk.
Don´t take the "boy" thing that personall
What is interesting to discuss is that u too are doing in the 1:1 ratio or similar , 3.5 and 40psi dada almost 1:1 ...
The reason i want a VNT as HP is the easy spool ability and amount (volume) of gas need for that , like this i can divert the remaining for the LP one wich is not so LP one. will be a Holset crap 35 or 40 wich i hope to give me enough air for those 100 cylinder. With that ratio of 1:1 or better. 5bar absolute is what i consider can be achieved at full pull , and maybe not even the engine will handle it... i´ll see.... afterwards.
so opinions on the matter are well apreciated...
BTW u´re talking about the VW injector units so called PD engine ? those i never messed with , but i had done a VE EDC for a TDI with 12mm and 150cc , 120cc in the dual stage , works great ... can´t clean up smoke...
they are just some 5x .360mm nozzles, and I've got a 12mm pump head to go on it.
Then I'll start doing things to get more air out of my turbos, I think I should get better efficiency by setting my LP wastegate higher. It is only running at a pressure ratio of 1.8, and I'm fairly certain it is over to the left side of peak efficiency on the compressor map. More pressure will also bring the mass flow up, so it very well may get closer to 1:1, with luck.
Ideally you can see more pressure on the intake manifold than is in the exhaust manifold, here is a video of it happening,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gEh-KcmYe0
Right around 0:50-0:55, play it back at real slow speed (settings menu on the lower right of the youtube window)
You can see the exhaust gauge comes up first, then once it starts spooling, the intake gauge comes up and surpasses it for a bit. The real hard trick is choosing your turbos to have that window as wide as possible. This should coincide with peak torque, if your power isn't being limited by fuel.
(05-05-2016, 11:54 PM)barrote Hello mr [486]No, I'm running a VP-37 pump with the bosch EDC15
I have been developing a low press DI , something in the 350bar, out of a OM602, this boy is to be 100hp cylinder or 30 and then is junk.
Don´t take the "boy" thing that personall
What is interesting to discuss is that u too are doing in the 1:1 ratio or similar , 3.5 and 40psi dada almost 1:1 ...
The reason i want a VNT as HP is the easy spool ability and amount (volume) of gas need for that , like this i can divert the remaining for the LP one wich is not so LP one. will be a Holset crap 35 or 40 wich i hope to give me enough air for those 100 cylinder. With that ratio of 1:1 or better. 5bar absolute is what i consider can be achieved at full pull , and maybe not even the engine will handle it... i´ll see.... afterwards.
so opinions on the matter are well apreciated...
BTW u´re talking about the VW injector units so called PD engine ? those i never messed with , but i had done a VE EDC for a TDI with 12mm and 150cc , 120cc in the dual stage , works great ... can´t clean up smoke...
they are just some 5x .360mm nozzles, and I've got a 12mm pump head to go on it.
Then I'll start doing things to get more air out of my turbos, I think I should get better efficiency by setting my LP wastegate higher. It is only running at a pressure ratio of 1.8, and I'm fairly certain it is over to the left side of peak efficiency on the compressor map. More pressure will also bring the mass flow up, so it very well may get closer to 1:1, with luck.
Ideally you can see more pressure on the intake manifold than is in the exhaust manifold, here is a video of it happening,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gEh-KcmYe0
Right around 0:50-0:55, play it back at real slow speed (settings menu on the lower right of the youtube window)
You can see the exhaust gauge comes up first, then once it starts spooling, the intake gauge comes up and surpasses it for a bit. The real hard trick is choosing your turbos to have that window as wide as possible. This should coincide with peak torque, if your power isn't being limited by fuel.
of course the rotor style pumps can´t put out as much as the inlines we use in merc´s sincronised at the same injection speeds...
completely diff type of pump , a customized VE 12mm special head with special cam plate and DV´s can be maximised to put out 150cc in the second stage injection.
the dual stage injectors have some tricks , one of the trics is relief pressure, but u can always change to 520 or 725 nozles. that should be enough for your litle engine
about the turbos , well apreciate the vid , i´ll watch carefully and lets see what my sequence will deliver... out of curiosity what turbos u have in your sequence?
FD,
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Those VP ´s can be swapped for a VE EDC and the VE can be litle better to tune.... more parts available....
of course the rotor style pumps can´t put out as much as the inlines we use in merc´s sincronised at the same injection speeds...
completely diff type of pump , a customized VE 12mm special head with special cam plate and DV´s can be maximised to put out 150cc in the second stage injection.
the dual stage injectors have some tricks , one of the trics is relief pressure, but u can always change to 520 or 725 nozles. that should be enough for your litle engine
about the turbos , well apreciate the vid , i´ll watch carefully and lets see what my sequence will deliver... out of curiosity what turbos u have in your sequence?
FD,
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
What is swapping VE for VP? I tought EDC pumps are VP series VP37 and VP44. VE pumps are mechanical. Also i would never ever make mistake of swaping EDC pump for shitty mechanical when you have EDC15 ECU hooked to it.
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
and many trics to get the extra cc out of it . in the electronic governor pump u are always limited by the governor assy , is very dificult to maximise the injection ring operation, wheres to say maximise the Kf value..... dadaa aaaddda
what ever ,
nothing u can do without a bench tester.....
FD,
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there is VE ´s with electronic governor , some parts inside are litle diff from VP´s . in many country ´s the VP are the ones u have electronic, and yes if u can swap a electronic distribuitor type pump for a mech VE , there is a lot to be gained , wich is rather dificult to explain here, and also there can be found 14 mm rotors for 6 cyl ones.
and many trics to get the extra cc out of it . in the electronic governor pump u are always limited by the governor assy , is very dificult to maximise the injection ring operation, wheres to say maximise the Kf value..... dadaa aaaddda
what ever , nothing u can do without a bench tester.....
FD,
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at some place it can be found that VP44 can have pilot injection some one know about this?
can you eletronically set injektion time on some ve pump like Bosch PESH
Is Ve limited like VP44 to about 4000rpm engine speed? at least that is what some injection companies in US say,
at some place it can be found that VP44 can have pilot injection some one know about this?
can you eletronically set injektion time on some ve pump like Bosch PESH
The thing with those pumps is that is possible to electronically change basic timming and injection advance like in the VP´s
The VE´s with electronic governor u set advance by regulating the spring inside the advance mechanism and it advances based on pilot fuel pressure and the pilot fuel pressure is kind of connected with the trasnfer case pressure, basically is a number that be must balanced, despite we can change it by as much we want.
On the other hand cars with VP´s and access through OBDII port one can change the basic timming and the basic advance in the map. but be aware that does not mean u can gain nothing with that, cause what is being done is a Variation (delta) to the basic map.
these pumps also read things like fuel temp , case pressure and some other features that relate to Emissions.
In a VE all this thing is set mechanically , and the wires are 7 ,stop solenoid, electromagnetic actuator feed back , electromagnetic actuator power, and fuel temp for cold start. the VP´s have a minimum of 9 .
about the 4000 rpm , u must be talking about the engine RPM, and that is not true, a VE can turn as much as u want , but like i said above from a certain point on (2k) the construction of the pump and quality of the injection head and plunguer determines the injection balance and phasing at high rpm , lets say more tha 2.5k. then u achieve usable rpm limit.
There are injection heads rated to 2300rpm , 2800, and 3200 , OEM thats what we look for is a rotor head in the 12mm rated for 3200,
As u see when we talk about a 14mm head , it surelly belong to a cummins agricultural or gen set , rated at 2.3k wich will not perform well in your M51 engine.... this is just a opening in the window.... i´ve seen a part number for a "daewoo" hydraulic gen set with a Zexel pump rated for 3.2k is a 6 cyl 14mm head, but i dont have the info on the rest , cam plate and kf number , so i dont know if it worths the assle to find one.... probably is a waste of money...
and of course , there were made thousands of OEM pumps by bosch based on type A ,M ,MW, P , V, and some other fancy , another thousands made under licence by stanadyne , zexel , diesel kiki , most have interchangeable parts ... is a question of digging and find what suits u better.
regards
FD,
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Hy ,
The thing with those pumps is that is possible to electronically change basic timming and injection advance like in the VP´s
The VE´s with electronic governor u set advance by regulating the spring inside the advance mechanism and it advances based on pilot fuel pressure and the pilot fuel pressure is kind of connected with the trasnfer case pressure, basically is a number that be must balanced, despite we can change it by as much we want.
On the other hand cars with VP´s and access through OBDII port one can change the basic timming and the basic advance in the map. but be aware that does not mean u can gain nothing with that, cause what is being done is a Variation (delta) to the basic map.
these pumps also read things like fuel temp , case pressure and some other features that relate to Emissions.
In a VE all this thing is set mechanically , and the wires are 7 ,stop solenoid, electromagnetic actuator feed back , electromagnetic actuator power, and fuel temp for cold start. the VP´s have a minimum of 9 .
about the 4000 rpm , u must be talking about the engine RPM, and that is not true, a VE can turn as much as u want , but like i said above from a certain point on (2k) the construction of the pump and quality of the injection head and plunguer determines the injection balance and phasing at high rpm , lets say more tha 2.5k. then u achieve usable rpm limit.
There are injection heads rated to 2300rpm , 2800, and 3200 , OEM thats what we look for is a rotor head in the 12mm rated for 3200,
As u see when we talk about a 14mm head , it surelly belong to a cummins agricultural or gen set , rated at 2.3k wich will not perform well in your M51 engine.... this is just a opening in the window.... i´ve seen a part number for a "daewoo" hydraulic gen set with a Zexel pump rated for 3.2k is a 6 cyl 14mm head, but i dont have the info on the rest , cam plate and kf number , so i dont know if it worths the assle to find one.... probably is a waste of money...
and of course , there were made thousands of OEM pumps by bosch based on type A ,M ,MW, P , V, and some other fancy , another thousands made under licence by stanadyne , zexel , diesel kiki , most have interchangeable parts ... is a question of digging and find what suits u better.
regards
FD,
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Oh, and people seem to have troubles spinning the EDC motors over 62xx RPM, something in the software does not like it. I'm running up to 5100 or so at the moment
(05-07-2016, 01:17 PM)barrote about the turbos , well apreciate the vid , i´ll watch carefully and lets see what my sequence will deliver... out of curiosity what turbos u have in your sequence?that is not mine, but someone else running a 59mm inducer borg warner on a DT466
I'm running a saab GT1752S (with the VNT turbine housing off a VW GT1749V machined to fit the turbine) for high pressure, a chinese 38mm wastegate for HP bypass, and a TD04HL-19T-7CM that I pieced together from saab, volvo and chinese parts on the HP side. Little tiny things on a little tiny motor. Intercoolers are air/water integrated into the intake manifold on the HP side and the stock fender mounted air-air on the LP side.
I've got a 12mm pump head and a 2.8mm (iirc) camplate, with more lift on the cam plate they don't live at high RPM. The nozzles are quite a lot larger than 520s, I've converted them to single stage operation with higher needle lift.
Oh, and people seem to have troubles spinning the EDC motors over 62xx RPM, something in the software does not like it. I'm running up to 5100 or so at the moment
(05-07-2016, 01:17 PM)barrote about the turbos , well apreciate the vid , i´ll watch carefully and lets see what my sequence will deliver... out of curiosity what turbos u have in your sequence?that is not mine, but someone else running a 59mm inducer borg warner on a DT466
I'm running a saab GT1752S (with the VNT turbine housing off a VW GT1749V machined to fit the turbine) for high pressure, a chinese 38mm wastegate for HP bypass, and a TD04HL-19T-7CM that I pieced together from saab, volvo and chinese parts on the HP side. Little tiny things on a little tiny motor. Intercoolers are air/water integrated into the intake manifold on the HP side and the stock fender mounted air-air on the LP side.
Thank you for the feed back, yes I have been looking for that Zexel pump for some time, if you find a number I would Be very great if you COULD CHARE so I possible can track one down to test one, if I can not find it I will go for PESH typ but there will be no pilot injection and I am not sure how my engine will go on that since properly have more combustion delay then usual though it is an IDI
I can not say I follow you in the rpm range of the vp44pump, pump is not my strong side, simply the higher rpm the less advance you can use? Can you set up a VP44 in a bench and try out AT HIGHER RPM TO SE phasing aND OUTPUT?
There is some difference advice depending on fuel feed pressure if you shall run 14psi or turn it up even more to have better cooling since the bypass valve will be more open, some even say 18-20psi but much higher the sensitive membrane can take abuse, the achilles heel to this pump is that you can ot lose fuel feed pressure, it will brake sooner or later
can you please explain more exact how the pilot injection work here and if need a special injector like the aaz INJECTORS
THANKS
barrote
Hy ,
The thing with those pumps is that is possible to electronically change basic timming and injection advance like in the VP´s
The VE´s with electronic governor u set advance by regulating the spring inside the advance mechanism and it advances based on pilot fuel pressure and the pilot fuel pressure is kind of connected with the trasnfer case pressure, basically is a number that be must balanced, despite we can change it by as much we want.
On the other hand cars with VP´s and access through OBDII port one can change the basic timming and the basic advance in the map. but be aware that does not mean u can gain nothing with that, cause what is being done is a Variation (delta) to the basic map.
these pumps also read things like fuel temp , case pressure and some other features that relate to Emissions.
In a VE all this thing is set mechanically , and the wires are 7 ,stop solenoid, electromagnetic actuator feed back , electromagnetic actuator power, and fuel temp for cold start. the VP´s have a minimum of 9 .
about the 4000 rpm , u must be talking about the engine RPM, and that is not true, a VE can turn as much as u want , but like i said above from a certain point on (2k) the construction of the pump and quality of the injection head and plunguer determines the injection balance and phasing at high rpm , lets say more tha 2.5k. then u achieve usable rpm limit.
There are injection heads rated to 2300rpm , 2800, and 3200 , OEM thats what we look for is a rotor head in the 12mm rated for 3200,
As u see when we talk about a 14mm head , it surelly belong to a cummins agricultural or gen set , rated at 2.3k wich will not perform well in your M51 engine.... this is just a opening in the window.... i´ve seen a part number for a "daewoo" hydraulic gen set with a Zexel pump rated for 3.2k is a 6 cyl 14mm head, but i dont have the info on the rest , cam plate and kf number , so i dont know if it worths the assle to find one.... probably is a waste of money...
and of course , there were made thousands of OEM pumps by bosch based on type A ,M ,MW, P , V, and some other fancy , another thousands made under licence by stanadyne , zexel , diesel kiki , most have interchangeable parts ... is a question of digging and find what suits u better.
regards
Hello
Thank you for the feed back, yes I have been looking for that Zexel pump for some time, if you find a number I would Be very great if you COULD CHARE so I possible can track one down to test one, if I can not find it I will go for PESH typ but there will be no pilot injection and I am not sure how my engine will go on that since properly have more combustion delay then usual though it is an IDI
I can not say I follow you in the rpm range of the vp44pump, pump is not my strong side, simply the higher rpm the less advance you can use? Can you set up a VP44 in a bench and try out AT HIGHER RPM TO SE phasing aND OUTPUT?
There is some difference advice depending on fuel feed pressure if you shall run 14psi or turn it up even more to have better cooling since the bypass valve will be more open, some even say 18-20psi but much higher the sensitive membrane can take abuse, the achilles heel to this pump is that you can ot lose fuel feed pressure, it will brake sooner or later
can you please explain more exact how the pilot injection work here and if need a special injector like the aaz INJECTORS
THANKS
barrote
Hy ,
The thing with those pumps is that is possible to electronically change basic timming and injection advance like in the VP´s
The VE´s with electronic governor u set advance by regulating the spring inside the advance mechanism and it advances based on pilot fuel pressure and the pilot fuel pressure is kind of connected with the trasnfer case pressure, basically is a number that be must balanced, despite we can change it by as much we want.
On the other hand cars with VP´s and access through OBDII port one can change the basic timming and the basic advance in the map. but be aware that does not mean u can gain nothing with that, cause what is being done is a Variation (delta) to the basic map.
these pumps also read things like fuel temp , case pressure and some other features that relate to Emissions.
In a VE all this thing is set mechanically , and the wires are 7 ,stop solenoid, electromagnetic actuator feed back , electromagnetic actuator power, and fuel temp for cold start. the VP´s have a minimum of 9 .
about the 4000 rpm , u must be talking about the engine RPM, and that is not true, a VE can turn as much as u want , but like i said above from a certain point on (2k) the construction of the pump and quality of the injection head and plunguer determines the injection balance and phasing at high rpm , lets say more tha 2.5k. then u achieve usable rpm limit.
There are injection heads rated to 2300rpm , 2800, and 3200 , OEM thats what we look for is a rotor head in the 12mm rated for 3200,
As u see when we talk about a 14mm head , it surelly belong to a cummins agricultural or gen set , rated at 2.3k wich will not perform well in your M51 engine.... this is just a opening in the window.... i´ve seen a part number for a "daewoo" hydraulic gen set with a Zexel pump rated for 3.2k is a 6 cyl 14mm head, but i dont have the info on the rest , cam plate and kf number , so i dont know if it worths the assle to find one.... probably is a waste of money...
and of course , there were made thousands of OEM pumps by bosch based on type A ,M ,MW, P , V, and some other fancy , another thousands made under licence by stanadyne , zexel , diesel kiki , most have interchangeable parts ... is a question of digging and find what suits u better.
regards
Now the cam, the cam being 2.8mm lift will by itself get u nowhere. D110 is one number ...
1- u have to change the recover springs to some springs able to maintain contact at 3.2k .
2- then it is necessary to compare Kf value, against the injection ring, in order to maximise injection stroke to the desired 2.8mm, if need be u cam shim the plunguer and cut the top of head. or both mods or just one. (watch out the openings in the cylinder)
3- make sure the governor at idle position is able to move the injection ring to its maximum, this is the tricky part, imagine, guess , wonder , having a bench tester and a test sheet helps a lot. this will make all the diff
4-DV, in the tester u check wich ones alow beter fueling , they can differ as much as 20cc. more less what a stock engine burns out of boost.
For instance a low press (210BAR pop ) injector usually spits everithing that is pushed through the line, a DI type injector must be able to reject once pressure raises to a certain amount (750/900) thats why changing the noozle size and nr of holes helps.
well this being known , its time to find a injector without relief valve, one that spits all that is pushed through the line, a single stage might well be the solution. there are noozles available with 8/9 holes , at .0050mm instead of 0.0020 . just a question of searching
well ,
the turbo arrangement u have is more less what i´m after , except i need a gt23 and the holset crap 35 /40 its a lot more gas to deal with.
unfortunatly , my bosch cathalogs are a bit out of date , but maybe in the states u can lay your hands on the DENSO cathalog, they built VE and VP´s under licence , and they have a lot more engines available for small trucks in asia than we have in europe and states toguether. there u can find those heads and cams springs and ddadada .
regards
FD,
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Well as i said , as long as u have a 12mm head rated for 3.2k rpm, u will be able to rev long past 6k , cause that head rating was designed to maintain injection balance and phasing at high speed.(assuming u lay your hands on a head like this)
Now the cam, the cam being 2.8mm lift will by itself get u nowhere. D110 is one number ...
1- u have to change the recover springs to some springs able to maintain contact at 3.2k .
2- then it is necessary to compare Kf value, against the injection ring, in order to maximise injection stroke to the desired 2.8mm, if need be u cam shim the plunguer and cut the top of head. or both mods or just one. (watch out the openings in the cylinder)
3- make sure the governor at idle position is able to move the injection ring to its maximum, this is the tricky part, imagine, guess , wonder , having a bench tester and a test sheet helps a lot. this will make all the diff
4-DV, in the tester u check wich ones alow beter fueling , they can differ as much as 20cc. more less what a stock engine burns out of boost.
For instance a low press (210BAR pop ) injector usually spits everithing that is pushed through the line, a DI type injector must be able to reject once pressure raises to a certain amount (750/900) thats why changing the noozle size and nr of holes helps.
well this being known , its time to find a injector without relief valve, one that spits all that is pushed through the line, a single stage might well be the solution. there are noozles available with 8/9 holes , at .0050mm instead of 0.0020 . just a question of searching
well ,
the turbo arrangement u have is more less what i´m after , except i need a gt23 and the holset crap 35 /40 its a lot more gas to deal with.
unfortunatly , my bosch cathalogs are a bit out of date , but maybe in the states u can lay your hands on the DENSO cathalog, they built VE and VP´s under licence , and they have a lot more engines available for small trucks in asia than we have in europe and states toguether. there u can find those heads and cams springs and ddadada .
regards
FD,
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(05-08-2016, 02:11 PM)barrote Now the cam, the cam being 2.8mm lift will by itself get u nowhere. D110 is one number ...DE110 rings a bell. ALH manual trans pump. Got some 1 467 010 410 springs coming in the mail for my chinese pump head. Thank you for the heads up on the various things about the position of the control collar, I was just going to set the head up so that it didn't bottom out the plunger into the end cap, then see if the engine ran away or barely idled, then adjust the governor position a little at a time from there.
1- u have to change the recover springs to some springs able to maintain contact at 3.2k .
2- then it is necessary to compare Kf value, against the injection ring, in order to maximise injection stroke to the desired 2.8mm, if need be u cam shim the plunguer and cut the top of head. or both mods or just one. (watch out the openings in the cylinder)
...
the turbo arrangement u have is more less what i´m after , except i need a gt23 and the holset crap 35 /40 its a lot more gas to deal with.
Got ideas with a holset "super 40" I've got on a 5.0L ford at the moment. When I need more air, that is. It lines up well with the 19T compressor map, and I could fit it in there with the others as well. In the distant future for now, those thoughts...
Why do you say "crap 35/40"? Something you've put together with a 35 turbine and 40 compressor?
(05-08-2016, 02:11 PM)barrote Now the cam, the cam being 2.8mm lift will by itself get u nowhere. D110 is one number ...DE110 rings a bell. ALH manual trans pump. Got some 1 467 010 410 springs coming in the mail for my chinese pump head. Thank you for the heads up on the various things about the position of the control collar, I was just going to set the head up so that it didn't bottom out the plunger into the end cap, then see if the engine ran away or barely idled, then adjust the governor position a little at a time from there.
1- u have to change the recover springs to some springs able to maintain contact at 3.2k .
2- then it is necessary to compare Kf value, against the injection ring, in order to maximise injection stroke to the desired 2.8mm, if need be u cam shim the plunguer and cut the top of head. or both mods or just one. (watch out the openings in the cylinder)
...
the turbo arrangement u have is more less what i´m after , except i need a gt23 and the holset crap 35 /40 its a lot more gas to deal with.
Got ideas with a holset "super 40" I've got on a 5.0L ford at the moment. When I need more air, that is. It lines up well with the 19T compressor map, and I could fit it in there with the others as well. In the distant future for now, those thoughts...
Why do you say "crap 35/40"? Something you've put together with a 35 turbine and 40 compressor?
the thing with the HX35 is that it has a hell of a heavy core, dificult to start spinning, the hx 40 even heavier, what would be very interesting would be cutting a half weight on this baby´s , then they would be a lot more interesting to watch
maybe a holow shaft, and a 70mm billet, titanium nut at front, and any other light nut at rear along with a ball bearing cartdrige.... those fancy and expensive things.
FD,
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hehe, holset crap ... just that i´m not fon of those holsets ... they remind me a truck turbo hehe but they do the job , i´m a lot more fon of garrets , well and usually far more dificult to find over here....
the thing with the HX35 is that it has a hell of a heavy core, dificult to start spinning, the hx 40 even heavier, what would be very interesting would be cutting a half weight on this baby´s , then they would be a lot more interesting to watch
maybe a holow shaft, and a 70mm billet, titanium nut at front, and any other light nut at rear along with a ball bearing cartdrige.... those fancy and expensive things.
FD,
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a GTC3576v would properly boost alot and 2,5bars of boost I se no trouble and back pressure should be low, original application is 380HP, thoug it is not for free and perhaps quite big solid
if you want more detail information e mail me
are there any dissent GTD turbo that you can get hold of?
a GTC3576v would properly boost alot and 2,5bars of boost I se no trouble and back pressure should be low, original application is 380HP, thoug it is not for free and perhaps quite big solid
if you want more detail information e mail me
(05-12-2016, 08:20 AM)barrote the thing with the HX35 is that it has a hell of a heavy core, dificult to start spinning, the hx 40 even heavier, what would be very interesting would be cutting a half weight on this baby´s , then they would be a lot more interesting to watchHeavy isn't always bad, I'd rather have 11mm shaft turbos in a compound setup than 7mm ones. When one turbine shaft breaks, both turbos will be destroyed. Besides, the mass close to the central axis of the shaft has very little rotational inertia.
Someone may well make a more modern turbine with thinner blades (the blades do have a lot of inertia, as they're furthest out) possibly fewer blades as well. I know TD04s have got some good support in that.
(05-12-2016, 08:20 AM)barrote the thing with the HX35 is that it has a hell of a heavy core, dificult to start spinning, the hx 40 even heavier, what would be very interesting would be cutting a half weight on this baby´s , then they would be a lot more interesting to watchHeavy isn't always bad, I'd rather have 11mm shaft turbos in a compound setup than 7mm ones. When one turbine shaft breaks, both turbos will be destroyed. Besides, the mass close to the central axis of the shaft has very little rotational inertia.
Someone may well make a more modern turbine with thinner blades (the blades do have a lot of inertia, as they're furthest out) possibly fewer blades as well. I know TD04s have got some good support in that.
i understand some of your points , but i can´t use it in my build, cause i´m after a day driver , or track race type engine, not a dragster or drifter.
And in a DD people (we) want to floor the thr and have decent power all way up from 1.5K to 4.5 , very rarely u can use 5k, 5.5k .
So in my opinion a 605 with the gt23V series is a bit low spool , well i can get it to spoll faster but then the engine suffers from high EGP in low rev, the best would be the gt22V , is fast too spool with relatively low EGP , or at least the engine does not complain, and it really fells like it is going , but when it reaches 2.5 bar by 2.2 rpm the EGP starts to rise a lot and even clog the engine at 4K with the vanes at max flow. so the solution is Waste Gating, but as u know the GT22V/23V alone does not produce more than 2.5 bar consistently enough above 3k. (even with a externall WG) my idea is to use up the remaining energy in the gas for a holset crap , and achieve 3.5 / 4 bar with almost the same EGP´s .
The idea is having the engine maximized between 3 to 4.5 k loosing tq ability till 5.5 .
I never seen a single turbo able to blow 3.5 to 4 bar , in the low rev range or without the assistance of N2O.
thanks
FD,
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well ,
i understand some of your points , but i can´t use it in my build, cause i´m after a day driver , or track race type engine, not a dragster or drifter.
And in a DD people (we) want to floor the thr and have decent power all way up from 1.5K to 4.5 , very rarely u can use 5k, 5.5k .
So in my opinion a 605 with the gt23V series is a bit low spool , well i can get it to spoll faster but then the engine suffers from high EGP in low rev, the best would be the gt22V , is fast too spool with relatively low EGP , or at least the engine does not complain, and it really fells like it is going , but when it reaches 2.5 bar by 2.2 rpm the EGP starts to rise a lot and even clog the engine at 4K with the vanes at max flow. so the solution is Waste Gating, but as u know the GT22V/23V alone does not produce more than 2.5 bar consistently enough above 3k. (even with a externall WG) my idea is to use up the remaining energy in the gas for a holset crap , and achieve 3.5 / 4 bar with almost the same EGP´s .
The idea is having the engine maximized between 3 to 4.5 k loosing tq ability till 5.5 .
I never seen a single turbo able to blow 3.5 to 4 bar , in the low rev range or without the assistance of N2O.
thanks
FD,
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