Finally can post :D yay
Finally can post :D yay
I'm a not-so-new member (have browsed this site for a few years, joined, forgot, rejoined, found I couldn't post, sent email, waited etc. anyway
Finally revisited and found it is all working.
Not unfamiliar with various MB fora, participate in a few, run another for the Aussies, so this is a knowledge-sharing exercise for me as much as anyone else.
I do not own an MB diesel. I'm more than familiar with them though I prefer the stuff that needs a spark.
We do have a w204 in the family, the 'last gasp' MB before I truly decide whether or not I will gradually disassociate myself from owning the marque over time.
Principal reason for rejoining was simple - I have a 1991 Range rover with a 3.9 v8, which I'm looking at swapping out.
I could easily drop an m117.968 in there, or any number of other engines, but I'm leaning towards a common-rail diesel.
I'm thinking a v6, which would have more than adequate torque for the application, but an inline 5 would also be OK.
Problem is, they are not that easy (or cheap) to source locally here in oz. Which means stuff like 605/606 starts to look good, even if it's a bit older.
I'm not sure if a 606a would fit in the engine bay of a range rover. I know they are OK in LR defenders and series landies and GWagens (can't afford one of those here) but it is an unknown.
Basic stuff like rear-sump location, rear transmission housing to match to an LT230 transfer case (not divorced) and other associated bits mean whatever occurs, it's not going to be easy.
I've already looked at v160 transfers, but they bring their own problems with them.
So while there are transmission adapters for m117's and possibly OM617a's, It's a far more sensible option to pursue a more modern efficient powerplant.
So for all the Europeans out there, the direct question to you all is:
What is easily available and relatively cheap in your domestic markets? 603a? 606a? 642? I'm keen to hear from you.
thanks!
Hi Everyone
I'm a not-so-new member (have browsed this site for a few years, joined, forgot, rejoined, found I couldn't post, sent email, waited etc. anyway
Finally revisited and found it is all working.
Not unfamiliar with various MB fora, participate in a few, run another for the Aussies, so this is a knowledge-sharing exercise for me as much as anyone else.
I do not own an MB diesel. I'm more than familiar with them though I prefer the stuff that needs a spark.
We do have a w204 in the family, the 'last gasp' MB before I truly decide whether or not I will gradually disassociate myself from owning the marque over time.
Principal reason for rejoining was simple - I have a 1991 Range rover with a 3.9 v8, which I'm looking at swapping out.
I could easily drop an m117.968 in there, or any number of other engines, but I'm leaning towards a common-rail diesel.
I'm thinking a v6, which would have more than adequate torque for the application, but an inline 5 would also be OK.
Problem is, they are not that easy (or cheap) to source locally here in oz. Which means stuff like 605/606 starts to look good, even if it's a bit older.
I'm not sure if a 606a would fit in the engine bay of a range rover. I know they are OK in LR defenders and series landies and GWagens (can't afford one of those here) but it is an unknown.
Basic stuff like rear-sump location, rear transmission housing to match to an LT230 transfer case (not divorced) and other associated bits mean whatever occurs, it's not going to be easy.
I've already looked at v160 transfers, but they bring their own problems with them.
So while there are transmission adapters for m117's and possibly OM617a's, It's a far more sensible option to pursue a more modern efficient powerplant.
So for all the Europeans out there, the direct question to you all is:
What is easily available and relatively cheap in your domestic markets? 603a? 606a? 642? I'm keen to hear from you.
thanks!
The only thing that is relatively available in the US is the om617. 606 and even 603 are fairly hard to find. Unless you wanna spend a decent amount of cash
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Welcome to the forum.
The only thing that is relatively available in the US is the om617. 606 and even 603 are fairly hard to find. Unless you wanna spend a decent amount of cash
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
UK has 606s for Africa...there's a chap on the facebook group exporting them to the US for £1500 signed sealed and delivered...
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Aussie has a reasonable few OM617As if you look hard but only people nuts on them like me would swap them in something else..
UK has 606s for Africa...there's a chap on the facebook group exporting them to the US for £1500 signed sealed and delivered...
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Plenty of 605 and 606 turbos here in Serbia. Great engines, IMHO common rail diesels simply aren't worth the trouble. These IDI's are even a bit quieter and smoother than CR, and they rev higher. Older 603's and 602's are more commonly naturally aspirated, and 617 turbos are practically nonexistent.
(05-19-2016, 04:23 AM)Petar Plenty of 605 and 606 turbos here in Serbia. Great engines, IMHO common rail diesels simply aren't worth the trouble. These IDI's are even a bit quieter and smoother than CR, and they rev higher. Older 603's and 602's are more commonly naturally aspirated, and 617 turbos are practically nonexistent.
I'll trade you all of the turbo om617 for Serbia's 606s!
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(05-19-2016, 04:23 AM)Petar Plenty of 605 and 606 turbos here in Serbia. Great engines, IMHO common rail diesels simply aren't worth the trouble. These IDI's are even a bit quieter and smoother than CR, and they rev higher. Older 603's and 602's are more commonly naturally aspirated, and 617 turbos are practically nonexistent.
I'll trade you all of the turbo om617 for Serbia's 606s!
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(05-19-2016, 04:23 AM)Petar Plenty of 605 and 606 turbos here in Serbia. Great engines, IMHO common rail diesels simply aren't worth the trouble. These IDI's are even a bit quieter and smoother than CR, and they rev higher. Older 603's and 602's are more commonly naturally aspirated, and 617 turbos are practically nonexistent.
Petar,
what kind of prices are 606's going for over there? I'm surprised.
(05-19-2016, 04:23 AM)Petar Plenty of 605 and 606 turbos here in Serbia. Great engines, IMHO common rail diesels simply aren't worth the trouble. These IDI's are even a bit quieter and smoother than CR, and they rev higher. Older 603's and 602's are more commonly naturally aspirated, and 617 turbos are practically nonexistent.
Petar,
what kind of prices are 606's going for over there? I'm surprised.
(05-18-2016, 11:55 PM)NZScott Aussie has a reasonable few OM617As if you look hard but only people nuts on them like me would swap them in something else..
UK has 606s for Africa...there's a chap on the facebook group exporting them to the US for £1500 signed sealed and delivered...
Hey Scott,
617's here are plentiful. They're also old and inefficient. Given the opportunity, I'm pretty sure anyone would plonk a modern diesel design in if the costs were similar.
To put it another way, I have a spare m104980 here, an m117968HV, manual and auto boxes, I could simply drop those in and be instantly better off than with the rover 3.9 v8.
But I'm doing this for another reason, fuel consumption and torque. Sure, the 5.6 chews less than the 3.9 and has buckets of grunt. It's also a limiting factor when going offroad, as 98RON isn't exactly 'available' in remote areas.
So diesel it is. but a 617/617a is way too old. and not reliably strong enough under boost for my liking. A 606a would be the preferred unit in that situation.
The reason I'm looking to the 3.0v6 is not just fuel consumption - it's a physically small, lightweight powerplant. Very efficient. Yes it has electronics. so what. People whinge about electronics because they have a dislike for things that aren't mechanical or exceed their ability to diagnose/repair. They are no more complicated than a CIS-E engine. Just more modern and advanced electronics.
Sad reality is, the times are changing- and moving forward to a relatively standard modern (current series) powerplant is not a bad thing. I'm not a 4 bar boost type of guy. even an NA606 would keep me happy. But, as I said before, efficiency is a good thing. weight loss is a good thing. especially when you're talking about rolling 2.5-3 tonnes around, and more with a trailer.
The m117 is still a very cheap option for me (free), even with a standalone ecu. but prices of fuel will change and I'm not going to keep the range rover if that occurs as the 107, the 124 coupe and the cosworth are more than enough drain on the wallet when it comes to the bowser. adding another 13L+/100 30 year old diesel just isn't going to cut it in a brick-shithouse britbox 4x4.
Mind you, if anyone has a w463 they don't want, I'm taking donations....
lol 
I could stretch to a lwb w460 300GD also. hehe
(05-18-2016, 11:55 PM)NZScott Aussie has a reasonable few OM617As if you look hard but only people nuts on them like me would swap them in something else..
UK has 606s for Africa...there's a chap on the facebook group exporting them to the US for £1500 signed sealed and delivered...
Hey Scott,
617's here are plentiful. They're also old and inefficient. Given the opportunity, I'm pretty sure anyone would plonk a modern diesel design in if the costs were similar.
To put it another way, I have a spare m104980 here, an m117968HV, manual and auto boxes, I could simply drop those in and be instantly better off than with the rover 3.9 v8.
But I'm doing this for another reason, fuel consumption and torque. Sure, the 5.6 chews less than the 3.9 and has buckets of grunt. It's also a limiting factor when going offroad, as 98RON isn't exactly 'available' in remote areas.
So diesel it is. but a 617/617a is way too old. and not reliably strong enough under boost for my liking. A 606a would be the preferred unit in that situation.
The reason I'm looking to the 3.0v6 is not just fuel consumption - it's a physically small, lightweight powerplant. Very efficient. Yes it has electronics. so what. People whinge about electronics because they have a dislike for things that aren't mechanical or exceed their ability to diagnose/repair. They are no more complicated than a CIS-E engine. Just more modern and advanced electronics.
Sad reality is, the times are changing- and moving forward to a relatively standard modern (current series) powerplant is not a bad thing. I'm not a 4 bar boost type of guy. even an NA606 would keep me happy. But, as I said before, efficiency is a good thing. weight loss is a good thing. especially when you're talking about rolling 2.5-3 tonnes around, and more with a trailer.
The m117 is still a very cheap option for me (free), even with a standalone ecu. but prices of fuel will change and I'm not going to keep the range rover if that occurs as the 107, the 124 coupe and the cosworth are more than enough drain on the wallet when it comes to the bowser. adding another 13L+/100 30 year old diesel just isn't going to cut it in a brick-shithouse britbox 4x4.
Mind you, if anyone has a w463 they don't want, I'm taking donations....
lol I could stretch to a lwb w460 300GD also. hehe
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Did we get the OM642 in this neck of the woods? I'm way out of my league with the modern engines...
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
We also got it in the chrysler 300C here. Not sure if you got it across the ditch though.
All of those are plentiful here, yet it was only the Gwagen that reported the 'sludging' issue for warranty / recall here locally. and I only know of one Gwagen in which this has occurred, It was replaced with a new engine when the owner drove it up from Melbourne and hit the oodnadatta track. They picked it up took it back fixed it.... not sure if he still has it though, I think he may have moved on - I haven't had any direct conversation with the owner since that was mentioned.
Yeah we've had it since about 2007 in w211, also in w212, it came in ML's w164 here, w463 Gwagens, and S-class w221's.
We also got it in the chrysler 300C here. Not sure if you got it across the ditch though.
All of those are plentiful here, yet it was only the Gwagen that reported the 'sludging' issue for warranty / recall here locally. and I only know of one Gwagen in which this has occurred, It was replaced with a new engine when the owner drove it up from Melbourne and hit the oodnadatta track. They picked it up took it back fixed it.... not sure if he still has it though, I think he may have moved on - I haven't had any direct conversation with the owner since that was mentioned.
It's not the engine electronics on the OM642 that's the problem, it is that it REQUIRES many other modules to run correctly. For instance it won't start at all without the smart key, and I haven't heard of an immobilizer bypass. It is very likely that it will go into limp mode with no transmission control unit and abs speed signal on the CAN, or it won't have full engine rpm because it thinks that you aren't moving. It may be possible to remove all those limiters using a remap, but the immobilizer problem remains.
Another reason is that the OM642 is quite a bit less reliable than the 606. The fuel system is much more sensitive to low quality fuel and VERY EXPENSIVE to repair if it fails. Also had a friend who had to change the timing chain at 150k kilometers. Glow plug relays fail sometimes, new one costs over 150e.
The 606 has the bosch inline pump that is almost indestructible, often outliving the engine itself. Rebuild for all 6 injectors costs less than 150e. It can be made to run with no electronics at all if you want to. It can run on many alternative fuels in an emergency. The duplex timing chain outlives the engine. There is no diesel knock AT ALL above ~1500 rpm, at least not with normal sized pump elements, with 7.5 or 8mm elements it gets quite a bit louder
It is very likely that the reduced maintenance costs cover the difference in fuel consumption compared to the 642. The inline six sounds better than a V6 IMO. The 642 comes in newer cars and will likely be more expensive than a 606. The 642 is not much more powerful than a 606.The 642 is a good engine but it is not that much better than the 606 to be worth the hassle.
That are the reasons why i will to stick to the 606. If i go CR it will be the OM613 or the OM648, not the V6, just because i like inline 6's
OM606's here costs around 6-700 euros, slightly more expensive than in the UK. Nobody buys them because the yearly road tax is excessive for anything over 2 liters of displacement, and the economic situation in the country is only getting worse. My C250 cost me 500 euros yearly until last year, this year reduced to ~280e because it's 20 years old. An E300 would cost me 800 euros yearly !!! Insane for a car that is only worth 2500e.
It's not the engine electronics on the OM642 that's the problem, it is that it REQUIRES many other modules to run correctly. For instance it won't start at all without the smart key, and I haven't heard of an immobilizer bypass. It is very likely that it will go into limp mode with no transmission control unit and abs speed signal on the CAN, or it won't have full engine rpm because it thinks that you aren't moving. It may be possible to remove all those limiters using a remap, but the immobilizer problem remains.
Another reason is that the OM642 is quite a bit less reliable than the 606. The fuel system is much more sensitive to low quality fuel and VERY EXPENSIVE to repair if it fails. Also had a friend who had to change the timing chain at 150k kilometers. Glow plug relays fail sometimes, new one costs over 150e.
The 606 has the bosch inline pump that is almost indestructible, often outliving the engine itself. Rebuild for all 6 injectors costs less than 150e. It can be made to run with no electronics at all if you want to. It can run on many alternative fuels in an emergency. The duplex timing chain outlives the engine. There is no diesel knock AT ALL above ~1500 rpm, at least not with normal sized pump elements, with 7.5 or 8mm elements it gets quite a bit louder It is very likely that the reduced maintenance costs cover the difference in fuel consumption compared to the 642. The inline six sounds better than a V6 IMO. The 642 comes in newer cars and will likely be more expensive than a 606. The 642 is not much more powerful than a 606.
The 642 is a good engine but it is not that much better than the 606 to be worth the hassle.
That are the reasons why i will to stick to the 606. If i go CR it will be the OM613 or the OM648, not the V6, just because i like inline 6's
(05-25-2016, 04:04 PM)Petar OM606's here costs around 6-700 euros, slightly more expensive than in the UK. Nobody buys them because the yearly road tax is excessive for anything over 2 liters of displacement, and the economic situation in the country is only getting worse. My C250 cost me 500 euros yearly until last year, this year reduced to ~280e because it's 20 years old. An E300 would cost me 800 euros yearly !!! Insane for a car that is only worth 2500e.
It's not the engine electronics on the OM642 that's the problem, it is that it REQUIRES many other modules to run correctly. For instance it won't start at all without the smart key, and I haven't heard of an immobilizer bypass. It is very likely that it will go into limp mode with no transmission control unit and abs speed signal on the CAN, or it won't have full engine rpm because it thinks that you aren't moving. It may be possible to remove all those limiters using a remap, but the immobilizer problem remains.
Another reason is that the OM642 is quite a bit less reliable than the 606. The fuel system is much more sensitive to low quality fuel and VERY EXPENSIVE to repair if it fails. Also had a friend who had to change the timing chain at 150k kilometers. Glow plug relays fail sometimes, new one costs over 150e.
The 606 has the bosch inline pump that is almost indestructible, often outliving the engine itself. Rebuild for all 6 injectors costs less than 150e. It can be made to run with no electronics at all if you want to. It can run on many alternative fuels in an emergency. The duplex timing chain outlives the engine. There is no diesel knock AT ALL above ~1500 rpm, at least not with normal sized pump elements, with 7.5 or 8mm elements it gets quite a bit louder
The 642 is a good engine but it is not that much better than the 606 to be worth the hassle.
That are the reasons why i will to stick to the 606. If i go CR it will be the OM613 or the OM648, not the V6, just because i like inline 6's
Petar, that's quite an informative post and raises some points which I already knew about the 642, but had not thought sufficiently problematic to be of concern. You are correct though - maintenance would be costly over time.
If a 606a is available for 6-700 euro, then it's pretty much a given that they are a worthwhile unit to bring in to oz, given shipping etc is always a problem to oz.
(05-25-2016, 04:04 PM)Petar OM606's here costs around 6-700 euros, slightly more expensive than in the UK. Nobody buys them because the yearly road tax is excessive for anything over 2 liters of displacement, and the economic situation in the country is only getting worse. My C250 cost me 500 euros yearly until last year, this year reduced to ~280e because it's 20 years old. An E300 would cost me 800 euros yearly !!! Insane for a car that is only worth 2500e.
It's not the engine electronics on the OM642 that's the problem, it is that it REQUIRES many other modules to run correctly. For instance it won't start at all without the smart key, and I haven't heard of an immobilizer bypass. It is very likely that it will go into limp mode with no transmission control unit and abs speed signal on the CAN, or it won't have full engine rpm because it thinks that you aren't moving. It may be possible to remove all those limiters using a remap, but the immobilizer problem remains.
Another reason is that the OM642 is quite a bit less reliable than the 606. The fuel system is much more sensitive to low quality fuel and VERY EXPENSIVE to repair if it fails. Also had a friend who had to change the timing chain at 150k kilometers. Glow plug relays fail sometimes, new one costs over 150e.
The 606 has the bosch inline pump that is almost indestructible, often outliving the engine itself. Rebuild for all 6 injectors costs less than 150e. It can be made to run with no electronics at all if you want to. It can run on many alternative fuels in an emergency. The duplex timing chain outlives the engine. There is no diesel knock AT ALL above ~1500 rpm, at least not with normal sized pump elements, with 7.5 or 8mm elements it gets quite a bit louder
The 642 is a good engine but it is not that much better than the 606 to be worth the hassle.
That are the reasons why i will to stick to the 606. If i go CR it will be the OM613 or the OM648, not the V6, just because i like inline 6's
Petar, that's quite an informative post and raises some points which I already knew about the 642, but had not thought sufficiently problematic to be of concern. You are correct though - maintenance would be costly over time.
If a 606a is available for 6-700 euro, then it's pretty much a given that they are a worthwhile unit to bring in to oz, given shipping etc is always a problem to oz.
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