C230 6-speed Giubo/Flex Joint Bolt Pattern
C230 6-speed Giubo/Flex Joint Bolt Pattern
Still creeping along with my 6-speed swap. I have installed a 6-speed 716.668 out of a 2002 C230. I found a drive-shaft from a C230 (2002, manual trans), and what's nice is that the front shaft shares the same splines as the rear shaft of the w124, and I should be able to use it without modifying the length of the shaft.
However, in mocking up the front shaft with the transmission, I noticed that the bolt pattern of the transmission output flange is a different diameter than the flange of the driveshaft. It's not a large difference (such as the difference between either my 717.4x flange, or the 722.4 flange), maybe 10mm difference (~5mm at each arm of the flange), but it's enough to notice and wonder if: 1) the Giubo joint has 2 bolt patterns (one for the transmission flange, and one for the driveshaft flange); or, 2) if the Giubo flexes enough to accommodate the slight difference between the 2 bolt patterns; or, 3) if I have procured non-compatible parts (because, hey why not? Nearly everything I've procured to date for this project has been a cluster F surprise).
Can the experience of the STD user-base shed some light on this situation?
Thanks!
TLDR Summary: Are the transmission output flange and front driveshaft flange bolt diameters supposed to be exactly the same, or are the diameters slightly different?
Still creeping along with my 6-speed swap. I have installed a 6-speed 716.668 out of a 2002 C230. I found a drive-shaft from a C230 (2002, manual trans), and what's nice is that the front shaft shares the same splines as the rear shaft of the w124, and I should be able to use it without modifying the length of the shaft.
However, in mocking up the front shaft with the transmission, I noticed that the bolt pattern of the transmission output flange is a different diameter than the flange of the driveshaft. It's not a large difference (such as the difference between either my 717.4x flange, or the 722.4 flange), maybe 10mm difference (~5mm at each arm of the flange), but it's enough to notice and wonder if: 1) the Giubo joint has 2 bolt patterns (one for the transmission flange, and one for the driveshaft flange); or, 2) if the Giubo flexes enough to accommodate the slight difference between the 2 bolt patterns; or, 3) if I have procured non-compatible parts (because, hey why not? Nearly everything I've procured to date for this project has been a cluster F surprise).
Can the experience of the STD user-base shed some light on this situation?
Thanks!
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Take a compatible flange and change it on the gearbox.
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Mercedes 190 -92, om605 Stroker 2.75L, Dieselmeken 7,5mm (160cc) EDC with Baldur DSL1 ECU, Garrett GTX3576R A/R 1.06 without WG, SMF, 716.661 (SG-S370/6) Gearbox
Can anybody confirm whether the output flanges on different transmissions are compatible? E.g. will a 110mm flange from a 722 work on a 716? Or am I restricted to just flanges from 716 transmissions?
Otherwise, I'll change the flange on the driveshaft.
Mismatched parts. 2002 C230 manual has a 100mm bolt pattern. My 716 has a 100mm bolt pattern, but the driveshaft I received has a 110mm bolt pattern; the part number on the driveshaft is different than the one listed and pictured in the ad.
Can anybody confirm whether the output flanges on different transmissions are compatible? E.g. will a 110mm flange from a 722 work on a 716? Or am I restricted to just flanges from 716 transmissions?
Otherwise, I'll change the flange on the driveshaft.
But sourcing those bushings would be a lot like the problem I'm facing right now: lots of questions and no answers. It looks like LKQ has an E420 and an S420 on the lot; I'll go there tomorrow, pull a flange and see if it fits.
I haven't heard one good thing about custom giubos, otherwise I'd mill out a slug of aluminum this afternoon. The urethane bushings would die a quick death under the stock hydraulic engine mounts and all the dancing around a 602 does. If I could source the bushings that are in the newer aluminum BMW giubo's, I'd consider it.
But sourcing those bushings would be a lot like the problem I'm facing right now: lots of questions and no answers. It looks like LKQ has an E420 and an S420 on the lot; I'll go there tomorrow, pull a flange and see if it fits.
(06-17-2016, 04:06 PM)JVance I haven't heard one good thing about custom giubos, otherwise I'd mill out a slug of aluminum this afternoon. The urethane bushings would die a quick death under the stock hydraulic engine mounts
Good to know - I hadn't heard anything but thought the concept was interesting and potentially promising...
(06-17-2016, 04:06 PM)JVance I haven't heard one good thing about custom giubos, otherwise I'd mill out a slug of aluminum this afternoon. The urethane bushings would die a quick death under the stock hydraulic engine mounts
Good to know - I hadn't heard anything but thought the concept was interesting and potentially promising...
So, 722 and 716 flanges are interchangeable, but spacers *may* be necessary to complete the flange swap.
Found a 110mm flange off of a '97 S420 at the pick-n-pull. The splines match the 716 output shaft, but it's about 0.125" too short. I will need to find or make a spacer to allow the nut to torque up against the flange.
So, 722 and 716 flanges are interchangeable, but spacers *may* be necessary to complete the flange swap.
I have swapped flanges from trans to trans (auto to manual, etc.) on several of these conversions (W123 & W124 from W126 and W201/W124/R129).
For the 5 speed that was in my other W124 I had to trim quite a bit of material away to make the larger (110mm) 6 hole giubo fit. This may or may not be the case on the 6 speed...just something to check before you commit to it. I filled it in with JB Weld and it has held up well to a fair amount of abuse and about 50K or so. That was a W201 donor trans (90mm giubo) that I modified to fit a 110mm yoke from a W126. I have a thread about it somewhere. EDIT: See below for a link to my '87 300D project thread for those details.
Some good info on shaft dimensions here:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=6969
I have posted this before elsewhere, but here is some good info about shaft dimensions that I made (measured myself in the part yards...still recommend you double check before purchasing anything, but I'd say all measurements were within 1/8" of the donor cars I checked) back when I was searching for a front and rear section for the 5 speed and V-8 subframe swap:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...=drive_web#
Most of the shafts on that spreadsheet are 110mm BCD with the larger splined center section required to match to the larger rear shafts (I wanted to maintain the larger giubos). At the very least it will provide you with a starting place to get a good donor shaft to make a custom modified / balanced driveshaft with new staked u-joint. That should run you about $400 - 500 from a decent shop, not including flex discs (should use new, high quality ones for balancing if possible...most good shops require that) or donor shaft parts.
Hopefully the output section of the 6 speed has enough clearance to prevent having to trim the case. See post #1 here for pics of what I had to do to the output section of the 5 speed to clear the 110mm giubo:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=4872
Basically I would make 120% sure that you don't need to modify the output section of your 6 speed to make the 110mm BCD giubo clear. Adding a washer to the outside of output flange to allow the nut to draw it tight should not be an issue (haven't pulled the flange on one of the 6 speeds yet), but I would make sure that the depth from the lip of the flange that meets the seal is the same as what comes off the trans...that flange likely holds some gears/shifter arms/stuff on the output shaft and thus needs to have really close to the same clearance...most of the trans I have pulled apart have had shims to make that dimension correct. I would get that as close to exact as possible to ensure longevity of the trans.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
07-08-2016, 01:47 PM #11I would STRONGLY recommend finding an acceptable length front shaft with the correct BCD and length. I recently did this 6 speed swap in my W124 as well, but the closest one I had in my parts pile at the time is about 1" too short. It fits and the car drives, I just have been really babying it to keep it from breaking/rounding splines (might not be that big of a concern really, just rather not find out on the way to work, etc.)
I have swapped flanges from trans to trans (auto to manual, etc.) on several of these conversions (W123 & W124 from W126 and W201/W124/R129).
For the 5 speed that was in my other W124 I had to trim quite a bit of material away to make the larger (110mm) 6 hole giubo fit. This may or may not be the case on the 6 speed...just something to check before you commit to it. I filled it in with JB Weld and it has held up well to a fair amount of abuse and about 50K or so. That was a W201 donor trans (90mm giubo) that I modified to fit a 110mm yoke from a W126. I have a thread about it somewhere. EDIT: See below for a link to my '87 300D project thread for those details.
Some good info on shaft dimensions here:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=6969
I have posted this before elsewhere, but here is some good info about shaft dimensions that I made (measured myself in the part yards...still recommend you double check before purchasing anything, but I'd say all measurements were within 1/8" of the donor cars I checked) back when I was searching for a front and rear section for the 5 speed and V-8 subframe swap:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...=drive_web#
Most of the shafts on that spreadsheet are 110mm BCD with the larger splined center section required to match to the larger rear shafts (I wanted to maintain the larger giubos). At the very least it will provide you with a starting place to get a good donor shaft to make a custom modified / balanced driveshaft with new staked u-joint. That should run you about $400 - 500 from a decent shop, not including flex discs (should use new, high quality ones for balancing if possible...most good shops require that) or donor shaft parts.
Hopefully the output section of the 6 speed has enough clearance to prevent having to trim the case. See post #1 here for pics of what I had to do to the output section of the 5 speed to clear the 110mm giubo:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=4872
Basically I would make 120% sure that you don't need to modify the output section of your 6 speed to make the 110mm BCD giubo clear. Adding a washer to the outside of output flange to allow the nut to draw it tight should not be an issue (haven't pulled the flange on one of the 6 speeds yet), but I would make sure that the depth from the lip of the flange that meets the seal is the same as what comes off the trans...that flange likely holds some gears/shifter arms/stuff on the output shaft and thus needs to have really close to the same clearance...most of the trans I have pulled apart have had shims to make that dimension correct. I would get that as close to exact as possible to ensure longevity of the trans.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
(07-08-2016, 01:47 PM)SurfRodder I would STRONGLY recommend finding an acceptable length front shaft with the correct BCD and length.
The front shaft is the correct length (whatever model it originally came off of...I'll update that in a build thread at some later date); the flange from the S420 matches the BCD; the 110mm Giubo clears the transmission; and, the only consideration for a spacer is that the nut doesn't bottom-out on the output shaft and instead securely fastens the flange to the output shaft.
(07-08-2016, 01:47 PM)SurfRodder I would STRONGLY recommend finding an acceptable length front shaft with the correct BCD and length.
The front shaft is the correct length (whatever model it originally came off of...I'll update that in a build thread at some later date); the flange from the S420 matches the BCD; the 110mm Giubo clears the transmission; and, the only consideration for a spacer is that the nut doesn't bottom-out on the output shaft and instead securely fastens the flange to the output shaft.
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