Injector nozzles for OM602.982
Injector nozzles for OM602.982
I used the search and didn't found it, probably because this engine is not popular here..
My question is:
Originally, the OM602.982 is equipped with DSLA 148 P 591 nozzles.
These are 5 x 0.22 x 148* nozzles.
I searches my ass of for something bigger, but there seems to be no logic in nozzle numbers whatsoever.
So, I am desperate.
Does anybody, just accidentally, know, what nozzle would be a more-flowing nozzle?
Kind regards,
Evgeniy
Evgeniy1987
07-25-2016, 02:42 PM #1Gentlemen,
I used the search and didn't found it, probably because this engine is not popular here..
My question is:
Originally, the OM602.982 is equipped with DSLA 148 P 591 nozzles.
These are 5 x 0.22 x 148* nozzles.
I searches my ass of for something bigger, but there seems to be no logic in nozzle numbers whatsoever.
So, I am desperate.
Does anybody, just accidentally, know, what nozzle would be a more-flowing nozzle?
Kind regards,
Evgeniy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Yes, those bosch numbers will tell you nothing about its size. I have ESI tronic and it seems completely random. Engine is somehow simmilar to Audi R5 TDI which uses DSLA150P... like any other TDI. So It would be good to investigate this matter as there are really large nozzles made for TDIs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
(07-26-2016, 01:59 AM)starynovy Yes, those bosch numbers will tell you nothing about its size. I have ESI tronic and it seems completely random. Engine is somehow simmilar to Audi R5 TDI which uses DSLA150P... like any other TDI. So It would be good to investigate this matter as there are really large nozzles made for TDIs.
Exactly .. I also have ESI[tronic] , but it doesn't help much AND sometimes it is even inconsistent with the information .. for example, you have a "sac-less nozzle" , and when you double-click it, it becomes a "hole-type nozzle" .. ???
DSLA150P xxx for the TDI's even has the same shape of the nozzle, but the problem is, as you see, different spray angle. 2 degrees seems only a little, but you have a chance of spraying against piston ..
![[Image: nozzles.jpg]](https://s20.postimg.org/hc3zmrfbx/nozzles.jpg)
The VAG TDI nozzles are of type 6 , and I believe, Benz OM602.982 has them too...
But, as you see .. DSLA..P exists in at least 3 different shapes, which sucks big time ...
Evgeniy1987
07-26-2016, 03:54 AM #3(07-26-2016, 01:59 AM)starynovy Yes, those bosch numbers will tell you nothing about its size. I have ESI tronic and it seems completely random. Engine is somehow simmilar to Audi R5 TDI which uses DSLA150P... like any other TDI. So It would be good to investigate this matter as there are really large nozzles made for TDIs.
Exactly .. I also have ESI[tronic] , but it doesn't help much AND sometimes it is even inconsistent with the information .. for example, you have a "sac-less nozzle" , and when you double-click it, it becomes a "hole-type nozzle" .. ???
DSLA150P xxx for the TDI's even has the same shape of the nozzle, but the problem is, as you see, different spray angle. 2 degrees seems only a little, but you have a chance of spraying against piston ..
The VAG TDI nozzles are of type 6 , and I believe, Benz OM602.982 has them too...
But, as you see .. DSLA..P exists in at least 3 different shapes, which sucks big time ...
try to search for bosio 525... then u have the holder part number, tip must be compatible.
the only problema with spray angle is hiting the bowl edge, if that happens piston will melt.(spray must happen inside the bowl)
FD,
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There plenty of injectors for DI, more than u can ever imagine....
try to search for bosio 525... then u have the holder part number, tip must be compatible.
the only problema with spray angle is hiting the bowl edge, if that happens piston will melt.(spray must happen inside the bowl)
FD,
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Therefore I am looking for a DSLA 148 P xxx nozzle with the same shape as the DSLA 148 P 591 , but more flow.
Evgeniy1987
07-26-2016, 07:27 AM #5Well, that is exactly what I am talking about.. The Benz nozzle has 148 degrees spray angle, and for example VAG TDI has 150 ..
Therefore I am looking for a DSLA 148 P xxx nozzle with the same shape as the DSLA 148 P 591 , but more flow.
install this i told u about , we use to use them in the TDI´s , with lots of sucess.
BTW how much is your pump puting out?
u see there´s no point upgrading the injectors for a stock rotor head!!!! but if u already have the 12mm in that case there´s another story.
regards
FD,
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and a 2 dregree diference , makes any diference?
install this i told u about , we use to use them in the TDI´s , with lots of sucess.
BTW how much is your pump puting out?
u see there´s no point upgrading the injectors for a stock rotor head!!!! but if u already have the 12mm in that case there´s another story.
regards
FD,
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(07-26-2016, 08:55 AM)barrote and a 2 dregree diference , makes any diference?
install this i told u about , we use to use them in the TDI´s , with lots of sucess.
BTW how much is your pump puting out?
u see there´s no point upgrading the injectors for a stock rotor head!!!! but if u already have the 12mm in that case there´s another story.
regards
I do not know, whether 2 degrees are much .. but if, I would rather go 2 degrees less than 2 degrees more, because of bigger advance at high RPM.
Well, the rotor-head-story is true .. and I already found out how to get 12mm , but I also know that these 5x0.22 will flow pretty much...
With 1.9 TDI , you can make near 200 HP with big enough turbo and only 4 nozzles of comparable size ..
I just want to know whether it exists, as I like to make my homework BEFORE it is needed ..
I first will get the W210 and disassemble it.. then, have a careful look whether it is very nasty to have the engine running electronically. If it is, I would build the pump with mechanical control parts. Then, turn it up as much as possible to see what it does with 11mm head. Then, the upgrades will come..
I have some bigger nozzles in my Scirocco as well, so DSLA150P ... is not a problem .. but I would like to stick with 148 , you never know .. and opening up an engine is expensive, when something goes wrong...
((( By the way, by upgrading nozzles with stock head you can retard the injection, because the same quantity of the fuel will be in the combustion chamber in a shorter time. This, theoretically, will make the engine louder, but more economical :
)) )))
Evgeniy1987
07-26-2016, 11:53 AM #7(07-26-2016, 08:55 AM)barrote and a 2 dregree diference , makes any diference?
install this i told u about , we use to use them in the TDI´s , with lots of sucess.
BTW how much is your pump puting out?
u see there´s no point upgrading the injectors for a stock rotor head!!!! but if u already have the 12mm in that case there´s another story.
regards
I do not know, whether 2 degrees are much .. but if, I would rather go 2 degrees less than 2 degrees more, because of bigger advance at high RPM.
Well, the rotor-head-story is true .. and I already found out how to get 12mm , but I also know that these 5x0.22 will flow pretty much...
With 1.9 TDI , you can make near 200 HP with big enough turbo and only 4 nozzles of comparable size ..
I just want to know whether it exists, as I like to make my homework BEFORE it is needed ..
I first will get the W210 and disassemble it.. then, have a careful look whether it is very nasty to have the engine running electronically. If it is, I would build the pump with mechanical control parts. Then, turn it up as much as possible to see what it does with 11mm head. Then, the upgrades will come..
I have some bigger nozzles in my Scirocco as well, so DSLA150P ... is not a problem .. but I would like to stick with 148 , you never know .. and opening up an engine is expensive, when something goes wrong...
((( By the way, by upgrading nozzles with stock head you can retard the injection, because the same quantity of the fuel will be in the combustion chamber in a shorter time. This, theoretically, will make the engine louder, but more economical :
)) )))
engine time dadada, but that is why the fórum´s are for.
The .98X engine is a 5 cylinder, 2 valve DI engine fitted with a VE EDC, wich many cal VP37. Basically the most dificult thing to achieve in this setup is the map of the ECU. since this VP series has electronic advance. same happens with some TDI´s and people manage.
The rotor head in this pump i belive is 9mm wich is far too small for 100cc lets say, having a 12mm would be possible to have 150cc output , but the problema is , where is this 5 cyl rotor head, and the wich cam? for many engines in the 4 and 6 cyl there are tons of diff heads and cams , with the same sense of rotation, firing order dadada.
And a 5 cyl mech VE , that can be done once u find the 5 cyl right turn 12mm rotor head.
After all this is time for injector upgrade, this brand bosio have the tips u need.
i belive that if we can´t increase the fueling 3 times over stock , so there´s no reason to upgrade injectors, or other things , after all diesel tunning is all about throwing fuel in the cylinders , massive amounts of fuel .....
What i wrote above is just my opinion , and just that, as far as i can i´m interested in the same outcome, but my 4 valve .98X will run with a M type pump as IDI, and only after i´ll run trials on DI, and the main idea is to make it possible to build 606´s low press DI´s.
FD,
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I´m sorry to disagree with u in many things u wrote above, starting from the 2 degree´s till the 12mm head, and the mech VE.
engine time dadada, but that is why the fórum´s are for.
The .98X engine is a 5 cylinder, 2 valve DI engine fitted with a VE EDC, wich many cal VP37. Basically the most dificult thing to achieve in this setup is the map of the ECU. since this VP series has electronic advance. same happens with some TDI´s and people manage.
The rotor head in this pump i belive is 9mm wich is far too small for 100cc lets say, having a 12mm would be possible to have 150cc output , but the problema is , where is this 5 cyl rotor head, and the wich cam? for many engines in the 4 and 6 cyl there are tons of diff heads and cams , with the same sense of rotation, firing order dadada.
And a 5 cyl mech VE , that can be done once u find the 5 cyl right turn 12mm rotor head.
After all this is time for injector upgrade, this brand bosio have the tips u need.
i belive that if we can´t increase the fueling 3 times over stock , so there´s no reason to upgrade injectors, or other things , after all diesel tunning is all about throwing fuel in the cylinders , massive amounts of fuel .....
What i wrote above is just my opinion , and just that, as far as i can i´m interested in the same outcome, but my 4 valve .98X will run with a M type pump as IDI, and only after i´ll run trials on DI, and the main idea is to make it possible to build 606´s low press DI´s.
FD,
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if you would agree on anything, we wouldnt learn, heheWell..
The OM602.982 in the E290 is equipped with a 0 460 415 991 injection pump, in other words VE 5/11 E 2000 R 642
An 11mm element pump, 5 cylinder, Right (clockwise) rotation, 4-stroke motor.
I know that people manage to let things run with EDC, but I do not like much electronics in a car from '70s .. I also have an mTDI pump in my Scirocco, and it runs very well.
I also can build a mechanical pump by using the original 11mm head and some other pump parts.
But about the "need" in injector upgrade - you might be right.. Because I know from my Scirocco that just installing a bigger pump head already increases power, even with stock nozzles.
And again, the stock nozzles are 5x 0.22 , which is pretty okay
but .. your plans .. sound awesome ? DI 606 ? What kind of head would fit ? Something like 613 head or so ?
Evgeniy1987
07-26-2016, 01:18 PM #9A discussion is very good if you would agree on anything, we wouldnt learn, hehe
Well..
The OM602.982 in the E290 is equipped with a 0 460 415 991 injection pump, in other words VE 5/11 E 2000 R 642
An 11mm element pump, 5 cylinder, Right (clockwise) rotation, 4-stroke motor.
I know that people manage to let things run with EDC, but I do not like much electronics in a car from '70s .. I also have an mTDI pump in my Scirocco, and it runs very well.
I also can build a mechanical pump by using the original 11mm head and some other pump parts.
But about the "need" in injector upgrade - you might be right.. Because I know from my Scirocco that just installing a bigger pump head already increases power, even with stock nozzles.
And again, the stock nozzles are 5x 0.22 , which is pretty okay
but .. your plans .. sound awesome ? DI 606 ? What kind of head would fit ? Something like 613 head or so ?
I wasn´t sure about the rotor head diameter, but if 11 good, 11mm promisses, despite the 12/14 would be a must , that engine is almost 600cc cylinder. a 12mm plunguer would be amazing.
The cam is what makes the miracles, maybe there´s higher lift cams , something in the 3mm área, or maybe it has a good lift cam , i dont have any to measure and manuals dont have those measures.
Most of those parts should fit the mech pumps.
I belive a 606 4 valve can be turned into a low press DI with a cummins 14mm rotor. only major change is the pistons wich can be from CDI´s or those from .98X
once i fixed the 5 cyl , i start to work on that thing.
yes injector upgrade in a DI is a must , but only if u can inject more than 2 times the stock fuel , otherwise does not worth the trouble...
my opinion , first comes turbo upgrade and so on...
FD,
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Yes, discussion indeed can move us forward...
I wasn´t sure about the rotor head diameter, but if 11 good, 11mm promisses, despite the 12/14 would be a must , that engine is almost 600cc cylinder. a 12mm plunguer would be amazing.
The cam is what makes the miracles, maybe there´s higher lift cams , something in the 3mm área, or maybe it has a good lift cam , i dont have any to measure and manuals dont have those measures.
Most of those parts should fit the mech pumps.
I belive a 606 4 valve can be turned into a low press DI with a cummins 14mm rotor. only major change is the pistons wich can be from CDI´s or those from .98X
once i fixed the 5 cyl , i start to work on that thing.
yes injector upgrade in a DI is a must , but only if u can inject more than 2 times the stock fuel , otherwise does not worth the trouble...
my opinion , first comes turbo upgrade and so on...
FD,
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Of course, turbo upgrade "and so on" will come as first.
Well, no .. fisrst, the car should run... and then I finaly can register it, because that is not done yet..
Evgeniy1987
07-26-2016, 03:14 PM #11Very cool! I am looking forward to see your projects
Of course, turbo upgrade "and so on" will come as first.
Well, no .. fisrst, the car should run... and then I finaly can register it, because that is not done yet..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Well if you are looking for some serious power.. like double the stock output it is advisable to take engine apart and change what needs to be changed. It will set you maybe 500-1000€ back but when in there you can machine off that stupid piston bowl edge and use whatever TDI nozzles. With 11mm head stock you are pretty much set, get large nozzles to that and it will bend rods. As long as you fit some good turbo to it, like Garrett GTB series operated by pressure ball for example. Also I dont know if you have some tuner friend or you can do it by yourself but I would stick to EDC system. It really is stupid simple and boasts HDK head on your pump so no troubles there. Obvious benefits are full advance and fueling control. You dont have this precision with mech. pump and especialy with VE pumps dynamic advance and rev limiters are pain in the ass. Speaking of hard learned experience, two years ago I was building mech. pumps for everyone today I chip it with far better result and consumption while keeping cruise control and AC fully working etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
but only if Benz has reliable sensors.. because my mTDI runs for already 170 kkm , and it just runs .. and runs .. uses about 4.8 L on 100 km .. and runs ..
Evgeniy1987
07-27-2016, 06:24 AM #13I know somebody with 15 years mTDI experience.. so building an mTDI pump wouldn't be a big problem .. but I am also very interested in learning, and if you say that same powers can be achieved with eTDI , then .. I think, I should start doing research
but only if Benz has reliable sensors.. because my mTDI runs for already 170 kkm , and it just runs .. and runs .. uses about 4.8 L on 100 km .. and runs ..
About reliebality of this system-As I said, you already have HDK head on pump so you are fine. Predecessor MES heads were shit as they worn out and made all kind of troubles. Other than this you have one magnetic pick-up sensor for engine speed, IAT thermistor, Water thermistor and pressure sensor.. not much to break since all these things were the same just with other plugs mounted on different engine brands and these 1990s cars just drives...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
I think you can always make more power with EDC just by looking at RPM governor, you can have 100% of power at 5500RPM and 0 at 5600.. this just cannot be done with centrifugal rev limiter in VE pumps, it just slowly cuts fuel much sooner and close to rev limit you are at fraction of power you could still have.
About reliebality of this system-As I said, you already have HDK head on pump so you are fine. Predecessor MES heads were shit as they worn out and made all kind of troubles. Other than this you have one magnetic pick-up sensor for engine speed, IAT thermistor, Water thermistor and pressure sensor.. not much to break since all these things were the same just with other plugs mounted on different engine brands and these 1990s cars just drives...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Not making the pump mTDI saves a lot of money, and makes the pump more stable, because it may keep 5 rollers in it, instead of having to cut one out for the governer...
Do you perhaps have some tips where to start with? I already had a look at WinOLS .. and I will have a better look at the ROMs in the ECU , and how to change them for EEPROMS..
(( By the way, where from "Central Europe" are you ? Because "starynovy" makes sense to me, it means "old new" .. so the language has similarities with Russian
))
Evgeniy1987
07-28-2016, 01:53 AM #15These are some good arguments, you are completely right about the power limiting... Then, I guess... I need to start digging in books
Not making the pump mTDI saves a lot of money, and makes the pump more stable, because it may keep 5 rollers in it, instead of having to cut one out for the governer...
Do you perhaps have some tips where to start with? I already had a look at WinOLS .. and I will have a better look at the ROMs in the ECU , and how to change them for EEPROMS..
(( By the way, where from "Central Europe" are you ? Because "starynovy" makes sense to me, it means "old new" .. so the language has similarities with Russian ))
I am from Slovakia.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
To be honest I did not see this ECU yet, tell me are there two PLLC32 chips? What is written on casing? It could be older MSA11 or "never" MSA25. 8 or 16bit respectively. Still a piece of cake to modify since turbo is pressure operated wastegate.
I am from Slovakia.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
My first wish will be to get rid of stupid immobilizers. Violence is still the best immobilizer (
), and I do not want to build 33 unnecessary things in my car, which even can impede good running.. I just want a working engine...This, by the way, was one of the reasons to think about mTDI..
Evgeniy1987
07-29-2016, 04:54 AM #17I will buy the car (I hope) on 8th august... then, I will start to disassemble it pretty fast, as I will only have a week for it..
My first wish will be to get rid of stupid immobilizers. Violence is still the best immobilizer ( ), and I do not want to build 33 unnecessary things in my car, which even can impede good running.. I just want a working engine...
This, by the way, was one of the reasons to think about mTDI..
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