Land Rover Conversion
Land Rover Conversion
),I joined up recently as I'm planning on a conversion for my Land Rover Defender. It's currently a TD5 engine which I've spent a reasonable bit on including VNT, Intercooler, Strong remap and various smaller items and electrical trickery, all to help it out. It's currently putting around somewhere between 185-200Bhp and 440-475Nm of torque.
I want a bit more, plus also fancy a gearbox change as the standard R380 is struggling with the power and I've just had to put a fresh box on which stung a bit!
I am planning on basically pulling the drivetrain from an early E300, so OM606 and 722.6 gearbox, running into my LT230 transfer bow (would be a divorced set-up). I have various questions that I would appreciate a little help on if possible
?1) After speaking with a specialist for the pumps over here, he reckons that 250Bhp and enough torque to beat my current figure should be manageable on the standard Turbo. Would this be correct?
2) Where would the torque sit on the 606's? I've not seen a torque curve with a standard turbo. The TD5 brings it's torque in down around 2100-2200 rpm, with the power right up at the top.
3) What turbo conversion is the normal first step? Would it be the Holset, or the BorgWarner? Would this be an advisable step right away in a 2-ton off-roader?
4) Does anyone, or would anyone have any pictures of the standard engine mounts the OM606 uses? And where they sit? Would be good to try and rough out some ideas in my head!
5) What about mounts for the 722.6?
6) What output does the steering pump put through? Would it be enough to power the Defender steering box all fine and dandy?
7) Someone people suggest using a different sump, which puts the pan at the back. With pulling the complete drivetrain, I'm trying to avoid this, so to make it as easy as possible. I have a 2 inch lift as normal, but just wondering if anyone has an idea of clearance that this sort of job might give? I imagine it must be similar to a G's clearence?
There is a host more questions I have, but I dont want to ask to much right away as I want to keep gathering as much info as possible. Plus dont want to offend anyone on here
.Hopefully it will use the OleFejer system for the 722.6, though not been in touch yet. Hopefully this system will be able to function well off-road. My truck does get used reasonably in the wet dirty stuff!
I am in the process of talking to a couple companies who might be interested in doing this conversion, but I'm 50/50 on having a go myself. Just need to seek plenty of advice.
Thanks in advance!
Hi Guys (hopefully this is in the right section ... there isn't really a conversions section ),
I joined up recently as I'm planning on a conversion for my Land Rover Defender. It's currently a TD5 engine which I've spent a reasonable bit on including VNT, Intercooler, Strong remap and various smaller items and electrical trickery, all to help it out. It's currently putting around somewhere between 185-200Bhp and 440-475Nm of torque.
I want a bit more, plus also fancy a gearbox change as the standard R380 is struggling with the power and I've just had to put a fresh box on which stung a bit!
I am planning on basically pulling the drivetrain from an early E300, so OM606 and 722.6 gearbox, running into my LT230 transfer bow (would be a divorced set-up). I have various questions that I would appreciate a little help on if possible ?
1) After speaking with a specialist for the pumps over here, he reckons that 250Bhp and enough torque to beat my current figure should be manageable on the standard Turbo. Would this be correct?
2) Where would the torque sit on the 606's? I've not seen a torque curve with a standard turbo. The TD5 brings it's torque in down around 2100-2200 rpm, with the power right up at the top.
3) What turbo conversion is the normal first step? Would it be the Holset, or the BorgWarner? Would this be an advisable step right away in a 2-ton off-roader?
4) Does anyone, or would anyone have any pictures of the standard engine mounts the OM606 uses? And where they sit? Would be good to try and rough out some ideas in my head!
5) What about mounts for the 722.6?
6) What output does the steering pump put through? Would it be enough to power the Defender steering box all fine and dandy?
7) Someone people suggest using a different sump, which puts the pan at the back. With pulling the complete drivetrain, I'm trying to avoid this, so to make it as easy as possible. I have a 2 inch lift as normal, but just wondering if anyone has an idea of clearance that this sort of job might give? I imagine it must be similar to a G's clearence?
There is a host more questions I have, but I dont want to ask to much right away as I want to keep gathering as much info as possible. Plus dont want to offend anyone on here .
Hopefully it will use the OleFejer system for the 722.6, though not been in touch yet. Hopefully this system will be able to function well off-road. My truck does get used reasonably in the wet dirty stuff!
I am in the process of talking to a couple companies who might be interested in doing this conversion, but I'm 50/50 on having a go myself. Just need to seek plenty of advice.
Thanks in advance!
It does everything I could want, Tows 3 tonne Easily. Will cruise at 70mph (Not that you would want to) and gets to 60 as fast as my 1.9tdi Golf????
TD5 Defenders are expensive bits of kit, I couldn't imagine pulling it out and putting a much older Merc Engine in.
I have a 605 c250 so I get the fun side of the diesel tuning, but is this really what you want??
Why don't you up the boost a bit more on your TD5??
If I was going to do that kind of conversion I'd sell up and free up the cash on an older land rover.
After all its your truck, Do what you wish. Just seems like a silly way of getting a bit more power tbh.....
Its not going to be a cheap swap. After you add new Injector pump, turbo , gearbox controller etc....
I have a defender myself, Cant for one reason think why I would want more power (EGR, Intercooler, Remap etc)
It does everything I could want, Tows 3 tonne Easily. Will cruise at 70mph (Not that you would want to) and gets to 60 as fast as my 1.9tdi Golf????
TD5 Defenders are expensive bits of kit, I couldn't imagine pulling it out and putting a much older Merc Engine in.
I have a 605 c250 so I get the fun side of the diesel tuning, but is this really what you want??
Why don't you up the boost a bit more on your TD5??
If I was going to do that kind of conversion I'd sell up and free up the cash on an older land rover.
After all its your truck, Do what you wish. Just seems like a silly way of getting a bit more power tbh.....
Its not going to be a cheap swap. After you add new Injector pump, turbo , gearbox controller etc....
The OM606 can cope with massive power without a drop in reliability. So by using an OM606 with a relatively low output, I can still have more power and more torque than the TD5 at full stretch, but retain reliability.
The TD5 whilst a brilliant design too, just wasn't 'finished off' properly in my opinion and could of been great. They're also not the easiest things to work on and have a few 'special' parts which makes things expensive. Least of all the Unit injectors. A design I've never liked. Caterpillar have just moved to Unit Injectors to reduce emissions in some of their big kit, but only as a necessity to meet regs.
Another advantage is getting shot of the electronics. I used to have a Tdi Defender and it was great. One cable linked to throttle and the rest could be sorted with big hammers and gaffa tape.
Whilst the TD5 electrics are primitive in comparison, they're still an issue, especially wading, unless you fancy spending £400 on a loom extension to shift the ECU up to the roof (CPS is shielded, so for some reason, this makes companies charge a fortune).
Then there's the gearbox. The R380 is obviously given that name for a reason. With my current tuning, I've exceeded that limit already and I'm sure the gearbox loves me for it. It'd be nice to go auto anyway, but an Auto conversion for the TD5 would set me back near enough £6-7000 anyway from Ashcrofts.
The Merc engine whilst older is a fabulous engine and built to take much more abuse than the TD5 could ever cope with, again, in my opinion of course.
I appreciate your advice, and it does make me think. I'm still waivering a little, but I know how great these engines can be, and the gearbox itself, is a great peice of kit.
I have thought of selling, but I know the chassis, I've sorted the chassis. I've modified the suspension to how I want, it has a cage that's built to my specification, so I'd have to do it all again if I got something else. Had this truck a while now to, so I have a bit of history with it!
Thanks for advice though
. I do understand your comments though and they are appreciated and have made me think!
The reason mainly is how the engine can cope with it. With the VNT, IC, Remap etc pushing out what it can, the TD5 engine is really at it's limit. I could up the boost, but then when pushing over 210-220Bhp the TD5 will just be strung out. The R380 on the other hand, even being a brand new box, will probably have a fit.
The OM606 can cope with massive power without a drop in reliability. So by using an OM606 with a relatively low output, I can still have more power and more torque than the TD5 at full stretch, but retain reliability.
The TD5 whilst a brilliant design too, just wasn't 'finished off' properly in my opinion and could of been great. They're also not the easiest things to work on and have a few 'special' parts which makes things expensive. Least of all the Unit injectors. A design I've never liked. Caterpillar have just moved to Unit Injectors to reduce emissions in some of their big kit, but only as a necessity to meet regs.
Another advantage is getting shot of the electronics. I used to have a Tdi Defender and it was great. One cable linked to throttle and the rest could be sorted with big hammers and gaffa tape.
Whilst the TD5 electrics are primitive in comparison, they're still an issue, especially wading, unless you fancy spending £400 on a loom extension to shift the ECU up to the roof (CPS is shielded, so for some reason, this makes companies charge a fortune).
Then there's the gearbox. The R380 is obviously given that name for a reason. With my current tuning, I've exceeded that limit already and I'm sure the gearbox loves me for it. It'd be nice to go auto anyway, but an Auto conversion for the TD5 would set me back near enough £6-7000 anyway from Ashcrofts.
The Merc engine whilst older is a fabulous engine and built to take much more abuse than the TD5 could ever cope with, again, in my opinion of course.
I appreciate your advice, and it does make me think. I'm still waivering a little, but I know how great these engines can be, and the gearbox itself, is a great peice of kit.
I have thought of selling, but I know the chassis, I've sorted the chassis. I've modified the suspension to how I want, it has a cage that's built to my specification, so I'd have to do it all again if I got something else. Had this truck a while now to, so I have a bit of history with it!
Thanks for advice though . I do understand your comments though and they are appreciated and have made me think!
Yes I understand that the td5 is at its limits/Gearbox also.
The merc engine will be great in that chassis, you will have loads of power and reliability etc etc
However just out of interest why do you want more power? How much power do you actually want?
I have never even had to use the Low ratio box to whilst towing as I have plenty of power, I just can't imagine having any more!!!!
They are terrifying to drive as it is, certainly not designed for much more power/speed!!!!
Which ever way you go keep us updates with a build thread, Sorry I can't be any help regarding the swap.
Hello,
Yes I understand that the td5 is at its limits/Gearbox also.
The merc engine will be great in that chassis, you will have loads of power and reliability etc etc
However just out of interest why do you want more power? How much power do you actually want?
I have never even had to use the Low ratio box to whilst towing as I have plenty of power, I just can't imagine having any more!!!!
They are terrifying to drive as it is, certainly not designed for much more power/speed!!!!
Which ever way you go keep us updates with a build thread, Sorry I can't be any help regarding the swap.
Ideally I'd like to stay away from the ZF (though would make various things easier.
The HP22 wont be strong enough and even the HP22/24 hybrid will struggle if a bigger turbo goes on etc.
I want to make the drive train solid. With as little weak links as possible.
Went on a 220 mile round trip to look at an E300 today, but just didn't like the amount of leaks around the rocker and a rather nasty ticking noise. It was also a cheap Gumball slag last year, so it's probably been pushed hard!
Plans have changed slightly after talking to an engineering firm near me. We may be going down the route of the 722 off the ML. Getting rid of the Merc transfer box, then creating an adapter plate to fit the LT230. Will also keep things shorter to.
Yeap, I've spoken to him before.
Ideally I'd like to stay away from the ZF (though would make various things easier.
The HP22 wont be strong enough and even the HP22/24 hybrid will struggle if a bigger turbo goes on etc.
I want to make the drive train solid. With as little weak links as possible.
Went on a 220 mile round trip to look at an E300 today, but just didn't like the amount of leaks around the rocker and a rather nasty ticking noise. It was also a cheap Gumball slag last year, so it's probably been pushed hard!
Plans have changed slightly after talking to an engineering firm near me. We may be going down the route of the 722 off the ML. Getting rid of the Merc transfer box, then creating an adapter plate to fit the LT230. Will also keep things shorter to.
Now I have to start the strip down!
Need to find a good clean 722.6 from an ML270 now. Should bolt straight up to the OM606 according to Ole! So fingers crossed! Need to purchase his controller to! Seems a very helpful chap as well! Must reply to his E-Mail!
Should be fun!
Need to get some second wheels as a temp vehicle to. Might go for another E300 for a run around :p! Rather nice to drive!
Right, I picked up a reasonable E300 now. Bodywork isn't great, but the engine and drive line seems ultra clean/tight and it drove back the 178 miles home without issue! Did on just over quarter of a tank to. Orange light came on 9 miles from home. Winner!
Now I have to start the strip down!
Need to find a good clean 722.6 from an ML270 now. Should bolt straight up to the OM606 according to Ole! So fingers crossed! Need to purchase his controller to! Seems a very helpful chap as well! Must reply to his E-Mail!
Should be fun!
Need to get some second wheels as a temp vehicle to. Might go for another E300 for a run around :p! Rather nice to drive!
Also I am after an OM606 glow plug relay if you don't use the one on your donor (it's canbus controlled).
Beers, H.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
I was casually researching this before and the ML transfer box protrudes from the wrong side of the gearbox correct? I mean opposite side to LR transfer box? Real shame that..
Also I am after an OM606 glow plug relay if you don't use the one on your donor (it's canbus controlled).
Beers, H.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
My build thread is here: http://www.terrangbil.net/forum/index.ph...nd-camper/
Any questions you have, let me know.
I have done a conversion on a Volvo C303. It uses the 722.6 and adapted link to the volvo transfer box.
My build thread is here: http://www.terrangbil.net/forum/index.ph...nd-camper/
Any questions you have, let me know.
I'm pretty confident it will work out. I will leave some adjustment option between the 722.6 and the Tx box to fine tune the alignment.
I like leaving the Merc drive donut in there, as in my view it will reduce vibrations and damp the drive shock a little.
I havent actually finished that bit yet. My first adaptor shaft was out of alignment, as the mig welding caused distortion. I'm just in the process of making a second which i will get Tig'd.
I'm pretty confident it will work out. I will leave some adjustment option between the 722.6 and the Tx box to fine tune the alignment.
I like leaving the Merc drive donut in there, as in my view it will reduce vibrations and damp the drive shock a little.
monstercrawlers
10-01-2015, 03:54 PM #12I have a bell housing and crank addaptor I'm getting rid of cheap should you decide to go zf route as I've decided to go sprinter manual and devorced lt230 in my racer
monstercrawlers
10-01-2015, 05:09 PM #14It's the 711620 cable operated 5 speed I'm using, it's the same as the gazfab addaptor and is for v8 zf. I want £200 I've just give £280 for it I think gazfab is £380. Can send him pix if he's interested b4 I put it up for sale
monstercrawlers
10-01-2015, 05:11 PM #15I also have a striped out hp24 if he wanted parts to upgrade his 22
plasticbadger
01-08-2016, 03:12 PM #16Has anybody got any updates on the various options above? I'm currently planning a tuned OM605 powered 4x4 race/competition build. I want to stay manual, but what will be easiest/best, the sprinter 711.620 with divorced LT230, or a manual ML270 box adapted to the LT230?
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
After talking to 50harleyrider we worked out that the Mercedes ML 4x4 722.6 box and transfer case has an open centre diff with an electronic solenoid locker, if anyone's interested in that as an option..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(01-08-2016, 03:12 PM)plasticbadger Has anybody got any updates on the various options above? I'm currently planning a tuned OM605 powered 4x4 race/competition build. I want to stay manual, but what will be easiest/best, the sprinter 711.620 with divorced LT230, or a manual ML270 box adapted to the LT230?
If it were me, I'd keep the powertrain all-MB if possible.
EXCEPT for the transfer case.
If you could get hold of a VG-150 from a w463 then well - I don't think you'd be here asking either lol
the ML transmissions have the transfer case bolted directly to the rear, but the drive side is opposite to the LT230. So will not work in an LR application.
But the possibility of using the 722.6xx or 722.9xx transmissions from an w163 or w164 would be quite compelling with a bolt-up adapter to the LT230.
You would have to fabricate a spud shaft for the LT, but it would be physically a better option, especially for torque-handling.
The thing that has me concerned is that you want to run 'competition' and a standard LT230 will not take that kind of punishment.
For a serious comp-only tcase, Rakeway or Atlas, but you will be rebuilding them just as often as an LT230 without mods.
If you want to go hard on an LT230, there are a bunch of modifications to consider. Cross-drilled input gear, Ashcroft ATB centre diff, double row bearing on rear output shaft, heavy duty gears (Maxidrive) and a few other oiling mods etc. Consider also the Ashcroft underdrive, which is a PTO mount gear splitter, so you can drive extra low range gears.
If you don't need extra low range, then change the LT230 ratios.
A couple of years ago there was a huge thread on pirate 4x4 about a guy who blew up his LT230 in his comp truck. There is also a very wise owl on the AULRO forum - he goes by the handle of ancient mariner, lives in FNQ, and he knows a thing or three about LT230's. as does another guy Phillip A. Speak to Dave ashcroft though - since you're in the UK. He's got a good reputation for his CV's and LT rebuilds.....
(01-08-2016, 03:12 PM)plasticbadger Has anybody got any updates on the various options above? I'm currently planning a tuned OM605 powered 4x4 race/competition build. I want to stay manual, but what will be easiest/best, the sprinter 711.620 with divorced LT230, or a manual ML270 box adapted to the LT230?
If it were me, I'd keep the powertrain all-MB if possible.
EXCEPT for the transfer case.
If you could get hold of a VG-150 from a w463 then well - I don't think you'd be here asking either lol
the ML transmissions have the transfer case bolted directly to the rear, but the drive side is opposite to the LT230. So will not work in an LR application.
But the possibility of using the 722.6xx or 722.9xx transmissions from an w163 or w164 would be quite compelling with a bolt-up adapter to the LT230.
You would have to fabricate a spud shaft for the LT, but it would be physically a better option, especially for torque-handling.
The thing that has me concerned is that you want to run 'competition' and a standard LT230 will not take that kind of punishment.
For a serious comp-only tcase, Rakeway or Atlas, but you will be rebuilding them just as often as an LT230 without mods.
If you want to go hard on an LT230, there are a bunch of modifications to consider. Cross-drilled input gear, Ashcroft ATB centre diff, double row bearing on rear output shaft, heavy duty gears (Maxidrive) and a few other oiling mods etc. Consider also the Ashcroft underdrive, which is a PTO mount gear splitter, so you can drive extra low range gears.
If you don't need extra low range, then change the LT230 ratios.
A couple of years ago there was a huge thread on pirate 4x4 about a guy who blew up his LT230 in his comp truck. There is also a very wise owl on the AULRO forum - he goes by the handle of ancient mariner, lives in FNQ, and he knows a thing or three about LT230's. as does another guy Phillip A. Speak to Dave ashcroft though - since you're in the UK. He's got a good reputation for his CV's and LT rebuilds.....
I know a couple running big HP, both on road and in competition. No doubt, various internal upgrades can make them even better. Shabs @ Syncro now does a U4 spec LT230. Rakeway also have a few comp safari units out there as well as their own Bulldogs running stock LT's ... A lot lighter mind which helps tremendously!
Either way, this is my result
.Edited for smaller pic ... this forum needs a self sizing plug-in going on!
Without wishing to start an argument, the LT230 is actually a very strong unit.
I know a couple running big HP, both on road and in competition. No doubt, various internal upgrades can make them even better. Shabs @ Syncro now does a U4 spec LT230. Rakeway also have a few comp safari units out there as well as their own Bulldogs running stock LT's ... A lot lighter mind which helps tremendously!
Either way, this is my result .
Edited for smaller pic ... this forum needs a self sizing plug-in going on!
A suitably beefed one will be fine behind an OM606.
I like your "Result" propshaft setup.
Got any more pics?
An LT230 in standard spec will destroy the centre diff planetary gears and cross pin behind big HP, especially if you start spinning one wheel when others have good grip.
A suitably beefed one will be fine behind an OM606.
I like your "Result" propshaft setup.
Got any more pics?
I guess different situations, but seen them last well in standard spec in Comp Safari events. Get one of the more budget Atlas boxes and I've seen them blow to pieces too. Perhaps hill climbs etc they'll come under a lot of on-off strain, with occasional back bouncing etc. Even then seen some LS powered ones cope well for a good while. When they do eventually blow, yes, you may as well shove other stuff in.
My box has an ATB in it, but only because I could get hold of one quicker than the small brass bushes (that was my excuse anyway to SWMBO ...
shh ...)Happy to both agree and disagree mind
. Only got a few pics at work!
They'll go eventually yes, but they'll take some abuse before they do!
I guess different situations, but seen them last well in standard spec in Comp Safari events. Get one of the more budget Atlas boxes and I've seen them blow to pieces too. Perhaps hill climbs etc they'll come under a lot of on-off strain, with occasional back bouncing etc. Even then seen some LS powered ones cope well for a good while. When they do eventually blow, yes, you may as well shove other stuff in.
My box has an ATB in it, but only because I could get hold of one quicker than the small brass bushes (that was my excuse anyway to SWMBO ... shh ...)
Happy to both agree and disagree mind .
Only got a few pics at work!
http://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/53567-ross-land-rover-90/
You will have to go down the (long) thread to find the start of the OM606 bit.
Theres a chap on LR4x4 who is doing a Defender conversion to OM606.
http://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/53567-ross-land-rover-90/
You will have to go down the (long) thread to find the start of the OM606 bit.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but as I remember it, this is in a 90, yes?
Seems possible to me to be able to use an ML box perhaps, and 'reunite' for my purposes....maybe.
Actually, just looking at that input shaft setup... Can you measure the distance from the rear of the trans (rear seal) to the LT230's flange face (looking to see how much length is req'd for my RRC)
Please correct me if I'm wrong but as I remember it, this is in a 90, yes?
Seems possible to me to be able to use an ML box perhaps, and 'reunite' for my purposes....maybe.
In fact i worked out the ML Tx box doesnt make it any shorter than my solution with a divorced Tx and spud shaft.
On the pros side the ML box solution is hard mounted to the GB, but its a lot of work to make the adaptor.
The dimension is somewhere in that thread, because i asked the same question.
In fact i worked out the ML Tx box doesnt make it any shorter than my solution with a divorced Tx and spud shaft.
On the pros side the ML box solution is hard mounted to the GB, but its a lot of work to make the adaptor.
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